Map Copy Protection?
WhiteZero
That Guy Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29511Members, Constellation
That Guy Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29511Members, Constellation
Sense Spark Maps don't need to be compiled, what kind of security will be implemented to prevent people from ripping off your hard work on a map? Will maps be actually compiled, just only when completed and distributed? Will there be some sort of encryption implemented? Anything?
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Comments
If you make a map, tell the ns2 world about it and host it on your own site or something like moddb, sneak in a texture on the map with your credits if you want to. If it's a good map, let people open it up and learn from it. If they copy anything over and get discovered for doing this, the mapping community will burn them in the pitts of hell pretty much. I wouldn't worry about it.
I hope they don't include encryption, one of the best things UnrealED has over Hammer is the fact that you can load up any map, official and otherwise, disect them and see how they're done.
Anyway, I guess even if there was no protection, it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm mostly just curious if Max already planned something.
The game will not allow someone to load a map that's different from the server's.... The filename will not make a difference.
You're using an editor made by someone else, that renders in an engine made by someone else, showing the textures and props made by someone else, that you got off the Internet that is, you will have guessed it by now, made by someone else - and you worry about someone "ripping off" some of your geometry?
Map protection is important because sometimes the biggest reward a person working for free can get is notoriety. If everything remains open, there is a risk of someone stealing your thunder. UWE gets paid for what it does and it directly benefits from people building upon their stuff, since it gets them interest from outside of their community and more importantly, additional content.
Yes. That is kind of the point here. But we all appreciate your snarky comments.
Plenty of artists make a living using tools created by others. And there's more to a map than geometry.
This thread raises valid concerns. How would you feel if someone went over your pride and joy, harvesting out their favourite bits, rearranging them a bit and releasing it as their own work? I'd feel pretty pissed if I didn't get any credit.
I'm in favour of optional copy-protection of maps, but I'm putting it in my "don't delay release to add it" basket.
--Scythe--
The basic idea behind working for free is that you don't actually get a reward. But it's good to see where everyone is standing. Should I ever release anything decent, feel free to rip off of it to your heart's content.
If someone rips off your map and it's <i>popular</i>, that's probably because they released it to a community of mappers, so just go to this community and name and shame. Mapping communities do not take kindly to people using other maps as their own and all you have to do is show them examples of areas ripped off and link to your original dowload, dated before the ripoff version was released.
Of course if you do release a nice map, make sure to tell everyone about it and it'll get the praise it deserves. If someone copies it then, the communities will generally notice it.
Also opening a map to see how it works is fine, it's why the tools to open compiled hammer maps exist, which are easy to find by anyone.
I'll attempt to reply to your incomprehensible post:
Adding something like encryption/decryption would actually be very easy. It would also allow people to choose if they want to copy protect their map as well, not making it required.
Step 1.) Add "Encrypt Map" option to Spark Editor. This will apply something like DES/Blowfish/etc encryption to the map code.
Step 2.) Add decryption protocol to the client/dedicated server software. So during the map preload phase of loading, the map is decrypted client side; and if necessary upon server map change, server side.
Step 3.) Done
And yes, I know this kind of protocol can be cracked. But at least it's an option for <b>something</b>.
Example : you're working on ns2_faceon_b4. The beta is public. Some 'tards takes it and changes some stuff and releases it somehow as ns2_faceon_b5. You may get ***ed. Some players will think it's the sequel of your map and it sucks, etc ...
Long story short, it would prevent a ######load of troubles for some case ( I also have Dota in mind ).
I don't want any kind of idiocy like DRM for something as pathetic as a map. This is almost as ridiculous as the 'copy protection' on Tribes 2 script files.
The best way to kill a great idea - keep it to yourself.
<!--quoteo(post=1740861:date=Nov 27 2009, 05:13 PM:name=huhuh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huhuh @ Nov 27 2009, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1740861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me, Map Copy Protection should be available. It would prevent malicious people from releasing fake versions and stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't want <b>copy protection</b> for that. You want <b>trademark.</b>
I don't want any kind of idiocy like DRM for something as pathetic as a map. This is almost as ridiculous as the 'copy protection' on Tribes 2 script files.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is nothing like DRM for games.
Maps take months of hard work to make. If they can be freely opened in their editable form, then you WILL have a-holes who go into them, take out entire rooms or even the entire map, tweak some stupid little piece and act like it's their own.
But think about the alternative, where it's a bit encrypted like in Hammer (HL series). If they really want, they can decompile, but end up with a horrible mess. But what can they still do? What <u>every respectable mapper does</u>... which is find inspiration from other maps. You can ALWAYS go into ANY map on your own client and examine every little corner to see how they built it. Actually being in the editable format is only good for some tricky things that are mostly restrained to single player maps. In MP maps, things aren't as complicated, as it's mostly about level flow and geometry design.
Game DRM is about how many times you can install a game; we all want to be able to freely install our games as many times as we want once we own them.
Map DRM still lets people play the maps all they want forever and ever. It's about stopping people from opening the map up, editing it without the author's permission, and then re-releasing it without proper crediting. It's more similar to the 'reverse engineering' and copy protection laws that cover games.
Again, you don't understand the situation. I love it when people go into my maps (in-game) and love them and find inspiration from them. I would despise it if someone went into my maps without my permission in an editor, ripped out a hallway I worked on for 5 hours, plugged it into their own map and then released it like it was their own.
It wouldn't be as bad if someone LOOKED at that hallway in my map and then re-built it from scratch, as at least they'd put in the work and have the skills to build that. But if they did have those skills, they would almost surely not copy things but rather just be inspired by them and make something truly original.
How is that not a better outcome?
Yeah, games have monetary value.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would despise it if someone went into my maps without my permission in an editor, ripped out a hallway I worked on for 5 hours, plugged it into their own map and then released it like it was their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright drama-queen, when in the history of NS has this ever been a problem? The very few times its happened, the guy was found out and ridiculed and nobody ever took him seriously again. There were no quality released maps for NS1 that had decompiled content in it. Let's talk about strawmen arguments, shall we?
How come modelers aren't asking for DRM, or texture artists? Because they apparently have some brains. If I download someone's skin, and think "this is nice but I don't like that logo there" and photoshop it out... NOBODY CARES. Why is that okay with you, but your dumb map isn't?
I decompiled many a map in NS1 to learn how certain things were done. Its how I learned how certain things worked, how to design certain architecture, and you know what? I'm betting a LOT of mappers used the .bsp decompiler to learn as well.
You can't copyright architecture shape. If I make a hallway that coincidentally looks a lot like yours, you can't moan that I 'stole' it. Look, a room with crates! ITS STOLEN FROM THOSE OTHER ROOMS WITH CRATES.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wouldn't be as bad if someone LOOKED at that hallway in my map and then re-built it from scratch, as at least they'd put in the work and have the skills to build that. But if they did have those skills, they would almost surely not copy things but rather just be inspired by them and make something truly original.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And here we find the truth of your argument. This has nothing to do with 'stealing' architecture, and everything to do with <b>TEH SKILLZ</b>. It's like the mapper equivalent of calling anyone who doesn't like bunnyhopping a skilless noob scrub who should GTFO because YOU WERE IN CAL-P.
If it's possible, yes.
high on the to-do list? no.
I think sirot said it best.
It's not about protection as much as intellectual property. As much as I enjoy learning from other mappers, I typically learn from walking around in their map, and on occassion I'll decompile them.
The key thing here is 1) consistency. I say this is a certain map and we all have the same map. 2) Safety of your work. Peripherally 3) streamlined compiled map to lower download time (Max said there's excess info that they can strip out).
That being said, as many have pointed out, the mapping community is pretty self-regulating. The idiots who just copy-pasta will get laughed out of the room. And I'm sure most mappers will release their source if they want others to learn from it. However, if someone wants to lock their stuff, I have no issue with it.