Okay, Enough With The Really Bad Gorge Work.
Mr_Fruitypants1
Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9038Members
Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9038Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Please stop the pain. Read this.</div> After spending a week watching some of the most illogical, n00bler gorge-work imaginable, my rage can no longer be contained. Three days of watching some very alarming trends develop in the Kharaa community has set me on fire to talk some sense into people before this sort of game play becomes habit. Many of you will argue that there’s more than one way to victory or that my definition of good gorge-work isn’t universally applicable: you’re wrong, and unless there’s a radical redesign of the entire game mechanics I’ll continue to be right. Gorges are every bit as “in charge” of their team’s chances of victory as the marine commander is, but unfortunately you can’t vote them out and everyone on the alien side can be one.
First off, let’s clear up a giant incorrect notion. People think Natural Selection is a fusion of real-time strategy and first-person shooter. It’s not. It’s a racing game. You’re racing to field an effective number of Fades / HA & HMG before the other team can field their Fades / HA & HMG. Sure, winning that race doesn’t guarantee you win the round, but if you don’t it’s because your team beat itself through outright poor game play.
In a 20 player game, if the Kharaa rush and contain while one gorge caps resource nodes and builds hives, it’s possible to get all three hives up along with upgrade chambers in well under ten minutes. <b>Under ten Minutes.</b> Once you get the fourth resource tower you’re getting RP faster than you can spend, imagine what you get with the five or six you can cap within that time. The problem is there’s always at least one or two other “strategic thinkers” f-ing the whole thing up by going gorge and shoving precious RP out the window. Just so we’re all on the same page and to help spell it out for all the “innovative masterminds” out there, here’s a list of when it’s <i>never</i> okay to be a gorge:
<b>1) You don’t know what all the Kharaa structures do, where to build them, when to build them, and/or <i>how</i> to build them.</b> Sorry all, but the time when it was acceptable to go gorge and then wander around the maps wondering what to do while you randomly plunk down ill-conceived “defensive strongholds” is over. If you want to play a gorge but don’t know how or you want to try out a radical new building strategy, make a LAN game and do it where you’re not f-ing nine other people out of a good time.
Every area has optimal placement for chambers that ensure it’s as tough a nut to crack as can be possible. Here’s a clue: it’s not randomly throwing chambers wherever you happen to be standing. Test your placement out in a LAN game, then switch teams and attack the area as a HA marine with a grenade launcher and then HMG. If it lives you pass, if it dies try again. No middle game defensive setup should be killable by a single marine regardless of his equipment, period.
Know when it’s an appropriate point to start building defenses? Answer: it’s never really appropriate before you get the second hive started and the upgrade chambers started. There’s an important concept that all alien players, but especially gorges need to understand: During the first five to ten minutes of a round, defense of the hive and resources is the responsibility of the skulks via a strong, aggressive behavior. At this stage of the game, there is absolutely no viable direct contribution to defense gorges can make that isn’t harmful in the long run, so don’t even try. Unless you’re facing a marine team of total newbies, they’re going to break out at some point, <i>there is nothing you can do to prevent it</i>. The most important thing to do at this point is to cap resource nodes and build hives as fast as you can. If your team of skulks can’t keep the marines contained long enough for you to get the second hive up, they suck and it’s probably not worth struggling through a round of valiantly getting your rump violated while the marines pin you into one hive and build siege turrets. In the time it takes you to sit there and build a single cluster of defense and offense chambers that will stand up to a couple basic marines, you can cap at least 3 resource nodes and put the second hive up. Not long after that you get the best defensive measures you can have: a team full of Fades running around shooting acid at everything that moves. Again, once you get the second hive up build at least 3 of each upgrade chamber, then start on defenses. Building any other way only delays, sometimes fatally, your ultimate goal in Natural Selection: putting up a second hive as soon as is possible and getting fades with level 3 upgrades out in force.
As far as how to build, I wouldn’t even mention it, but the number of times I saw something like the following happen this weekend made me feel that I have too:
[hardcoreclan]$tHePl4y4-G$: I got 90 pts how do I make the hive?
[hardcoreclan]$tHePl4y4-G$: hlpme
SomeMarine *knifekill sprite* [hardcoreclan]$tHePl4y4$.
<b>2) You want to see or kill even a single marine the entire round.</b> By this I’m not counting the really fun end game where one side humiliates the other by killing them in their spawn in the most embarrassing ways imaginable. If you’re playing gorge correctly and have even a few decent players on your team, you’ll start seeing acid kills by fades attacking the marine spawn before you even finish shoring up the defenses at your hives. Only after you’re satisfied with the defenses at both hives should you leave for the front. By now someone else is almost certainly a gorge and hopefully they’re doing a good job of building a forward outpost that the fades and lerks can retreat to for healing. If not, it’s time for you to do it.
As far as gorges at the front healing or building defenses in the early game, there’s nothing more n00blish. For one thing, when weighed against getting the second hive up and increasing the resource pool, base skulks are simply not worth healing and as I’ve already said, by the time you can get up a credible defensive outpost, you could have capped a bunch of resource nodes and got a hive started. Even if you’re the second gorge, it’s far better for you to be out capping resource nodes and trying to set up the third hive/backup second hive, putting down upgrade chambers, etc. Of course, the best thing for you to be doing before the second hive is up is to be dying as a skulk. Don’t even get me started about people who go gorge just so they get a ranged attack and then get killed with 80rp before the second hive is up.
As a side note, quit being “tricky” and building 6 defense chambers in the vent behind the marine spawn on Caged thinking that you’ll build them then go fade or lerk and tear up the marines in their spawn from your impenetrable fortress of healing. Know why? A good commander wants you to put them all up. As soon as he figures you’ve had time to put up five or six chambers he’ll put a siege in spawn, and now he’s got free defenses until your tower dies. Sure, the siege won’t kill all those chambers you screwed your whole team to build right away, but they will kill anything that comes into the spawn while it’s firing. Thanks for grinding any sort of base raid to a grinding halt at the cost of a hive’s worth of rp.
<b>3) You don’t know the map.</b> There’s so many reason for this, it’s not even funny. So many in fact I’ll make a list of them.
a. So you can travel quickly from resource node to resource node in the opening game. You need to be able to travel efficiently in the opening game. Except when you are fast-building a resource collector, you do not want to be sitting still or wandering around looking for resource nodes. Since you should know which hive is most important to take first and which resource nodes are along the way, run to the first one as a skulk and find a safe spot like a vent or rafter to evolve and wait. Even though your skulks should be containing, a lot of really skilled marines like to run out into the map and hit the resource nodes hoping to catch a fat gorge sitting there waiting to build a resource collector. At this point you don’t have to be exposed to discovery so there’s no reason to sit out in the open. Once you get 22 rp, come out of hiding and build a resource collector. Since it’s your first tower and rp income is slow, there isn’t much else you can do for a few minutes so you might as well help build up that resource chamber. Estimate the time to get to the next resource node and when you’ll be at 22 resource again. If you think you’ll be at 22 resources before you get to the next nozzle if you build the current resource chamber to completion, leave it. Continue capping resource nodes until you reach a point where you’ll get to the hive chamber just as you reach 80 resource points. On most maps that’s as simple as capping the resource points directly along the way to the second hive. Like I said, you should be <i>mostly</i> safe, but there’s always a chance that a Rambo could be out there so pay attention and listen for marine sounds. If you hear them, run the other way and call for help because unless you’re the God of Roxoring you’ll just die is he sees you.
b. So you can travel in relative safety. Not knowing the map means you have little idea where you’re mostly safe and mostly dead. As big as some of these maps are, the difference between getting to your next hive and getting to the marine spawn is turning right instead of left. Incase I haven’t made this clear enough yet, marines seeing you is bad. Knifing you is a Marine’s wet dream in Natural Selection, the only thing better is jet-packing on top of a hive with a welder. You want to minimize your contact with marines until the endgame where you’re making healing stations for your fades attacking the marine spawn.
c. So you know where the hives are. This goes without saying, but at least once a day I see a gorge saying “I have 80rp where is the hives?”. This is usually followed shortly by that gorge being killed as he wanders around the map. Remember people, every time a gorge full of RP dies before the 3rd hive is up, Baby Jesus cries in heaven and at <i>least</i> a dozen puppies die here on earth. Avoid it.
d. So you what hive to go after first, if you <i>need</i> a certain hive, or if a certain hive is more trouble than it’s worth. Here’s another thing a lot of people have a hard time understanding: You don’t need to have all three hives, and most likely you’re not going to get all three unless you waste a ton of energy, time, and resources doing it. You want to have as easy a time as you can, and win as fast as you can. Almost all maps have a hive that the marines go for first or a hive that’s almost impossible to hold or get back once it’s built up. Some other maps have protection built in like Ventilation in Caged. Until the marines get jetpacks or weld that fence (which is easy to prevent), Vent is pretty safe from the Sewer side of the map. Also, which hive is going to be easier to hold or take back, Sewer or Generator? Without a doubt, Sewer is way harder to hold than Generator is. Compared to Stability Monitoring, the Sewer Vestibules may as well be open rooms with floodlights…oh wait, they are. The lighting, cover and entrances to Stability make it so that just two skulks can hold it from just about an entire marine team. Not only that, when you hold Generator it’s easy to bypass Sewer or attack it from both sides simply by using the Freight Elevator Access area. That way you can also attack the Marine spawn from both sides and still be able to fall back if needed, whereas if you don’t have Generator you can only attack safely from the Sewer side. Plus, the marines just seem to have a **obscenity** for attacking Sewer hive and who needs that hassle. You only need two Hives to win the game, so let them have Sewer and spend points building it up. By the time they can build it up to where it has a chance of holding, they’ve neglected upgrades and you should have people going fade with level 3 upgrades in at least one category moving in on their spawn. Guess who wins? Unless you start in Sewer, it’s more trouble than it’s worth. On the opposite end of the spectrum, You <i>have</i> to have Feedwater Control on Bast and you need to keep the Marines out of Atmospheric Processing. If you let Marines have Feedwater,or even build up in Atmospheric Processing, you’re boned. They’ll have control of five resource nodes, and the only real rout of attack is through the Tram Tunnel and up into a death trap. Atmospheric Processing and the Reactor Room in Tanith are the <i>only</i> two times it’s acceptable to put up defenses before you start the second hive.
E. So you know what areas are really critical, which ones aren’t, and what to build where to protect them. I see a lot of people putting up a resource collector and then building the Atlantic Wall around it. Learn the choke points and how you can use them to isolate parts of the map. A properly constructed set of defenses in the Freight Elevator Access area can protect the entire Eastern side of the map and five resource nodes until the marines get jetpacks, grenade launchers, or lots of marines with lots of ammo working together. Understand that the best place to put Offensive chambers isn’t right around corners to blindside marines with defense chambers right behind them. The place to put them is so you can get two or three able to fire with about forty game feet of unobstructed firing between them and any place marines might come out, with the defense chambers behind a map feature like a wall or cargo container. Marine weapons have terrible spread at that range and the chances of even three marines taking down three Offense chambers backed by as many or more Defense chambers is pretty slim, and by then help should have arrived. If they try to close range to get better accuracy, they’ll simply die. Putting defensive groups right around corners or behind stuff lets marines strafe out, fire at point blank range for a near 100% hit rate, and strafe back in before the chambers can even react. Killing these when I play marine is my third biggest joy, right behind jetpacking onto hives and knifing gorges. Also, understand the terrain in the area you’re building in. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen defensive clusters that are so obstructed by cargo boxes or so close up against a platform wall that they may as well not be there.
Okay, back to reasons you shouldn’t be a gorge.
<b>4) There are already two gorges</b> Even if they’re the world’s worst gorges, unless you hold about seven resource nodes, you’re not going to be able to do much. And if you had seven resource nodes, they wouldn’t be the world’s worst gorges now would they? Even if you’re only going gorge to put up a resource collector, don’t. By the time you figure in the cost of evolving and then evolving back, building stuff, and slowing resources distribution to a halt, you’re doing more harm than good.
Ugh, I’m so tired of typing.
Okay, here's a quick recap with some bonus wisdom thrown in.
1. Do <i>nothing</i> but cap resources until you get the second hive up. The two exceptions are Atmospheric control in Bast (which is two resource node right there to cap once it's secure) and the Reacto Room in Tanith (ditto)
2. Building 45 points of offense and defense chambers around every resource node before you move on = you suck. You'll probably cost your team the game.
3. Defense or Movement, then the other one, then Sensory if you’ve got nothing better to waste resources on.
4. Offense chambers aren't for getting free unattended kills, they're for <i>temporarily</i> denying territory to the marines. If it kills them great, but scaring them off until they think they can take them out is just about as good.
5. Plan and build for a two hive fight. Three hives is nice but if you can't win with two and full movement and defense upgrades, it was a well deserved win for the marines.
6. Never be the third gorge, and if you're the fourth, uninstall Natural Selection. Seriously
7. If you have two gorges, for God's sake go in different directions. The saddest thing <b>ever</b> is watching two gorges running around together both speed building the same same structure. I take that back. The saddest thing is watching those same two guys getting killed by marines. More than once in a round even. Sinistar and Paantos, I'm looking at you...
8. Stop blocking doors and passageways off completely. It doesn' do anything but slow your own team down and make Onii console kill themselves. Redemption is a useful mutation and this about ruins it.
9. Build redundant upgrade chambers in each of the hives. As long as you've got the chambers at a hive someplace you can still get the upgrades even if you lose that chamber's hive.
<b>10. Never, ever build anything within siege cannon range of the Marine Spawn.</b> They might not have them when you put down those six defense chambers, but sucks to be Kharaa if they build one after you've got them all up.
First off, let’s clear up a giant incorrect notion. People think Natural Selection is a fusion of real-time strategy and first-person shooter. It’s not. It’s a racing game. You’re racing to field an effective number of Fades / HA & HMG before the other team can field their Fades / HA & HMG. Sure, winning that race doesn’t guarantee you win the round, but if you don’t it’s because your team beat itself through outright poor game play.
In a 20 player game, if the Kharaa rush and contain while one gorge caps resource nodes and builds hives, it’s possible to get all three hives up along with upgrade chambers in well under ten minutes. <b>Under ten Minutes.</b> Once you get the fourth resource tower you’re getting RP faster than you can spend, imagine what you get with the five or six you can cap within that time. The problem is there’s always at least one or two other “strategic thinkers” f-ing the whole thing up by going gorge and shoving precious RP out the window. Just so we’re all on the same page and to help spell it out for all the “innovative masterminds” out there, here’s a list of when it’s <i>never</i> okay to be a gorge:
<b>1) You don’t know what all the Kharaa structures do, where to build them, when to build them, and/or <i>how</i> to build them.</b> Sorry all, but the time when it was acceptable to go gorge and then wander around the maps wondering what to do while you randomly plunk down ill-conceived “defensive strongholds” is over. If you want to play a gorge but don’t know how or you want to try out a radical new building strategy, make a LAN game and do it where you’re not f-ing nine other people out of a good time.
Every area has optimal placement for chambers that ensure it’s as tough a nut to crack as can be possible. Here’s a clue: it’s not randomly throwing chambers wherever you happen to be standing. Test your placement out in a LAN game, then switch teams and attack the area as a HA marine with a grenade launcher and then HMG. If it lives you pass, if it dies try again. No middle game defensive setup should be killable by a single marine regardless of his equipment, period.
Know when it’s an appropriate point to start building defenses? Answer: it’s never really appropriate before you get the second hive started and the upgrade chambers started. There’s an important concept that all alien players, but especially gorges need to understand: During the first five to ten minutes of a round, defense of the hive and resources is the responsibility of the skulks via a strong, aggressive behavior. At this stage of the game, there is absolutely no viable direct contribution to defense gorges can make that isn’t harmful in the long run, so don’t even try. Unless you’re facing a marine team of total newbies, they’re going to break out at some point, <i>there is nothing you can do to prevent it</i>. The most important thing to do at this point is to cap resource nodes and build hives as fast as you can. If your team of skulks can’t keep the marines contained long enough for you to get the second hive up, they suck and it’s probably not worth struggling through a round of valiantly getting your rump violated while the marines pin you into one hive and build siege turrets. In the time it takes you to sit there and build a single cluster of defense and offense chambers that will stand up to a couple basic marines, you can cap at least 3 resource nodes and put the second hive up. Not long after that you get the best defensive measures you can have: a team full of Fades running around shooting acid at everything that moves. Again, once you get the second hive up build at least 3 of each upgrade chamber, then start on defenses. Building any other way only delays, sometimes fatally, your ultimate goal in Natural Selection: putting up a second hive as soon as is possible and getting fades with level 3 upgrades out in force.
As far as how to build, I wouldn’t even mention it, but the number of times I saw something like the following happen this weekend made me feel that I have too:
[hardcoreclan]$tHePl4y4-G$: I got 90 pts how do I make the hive?
[hardcoreclan]$tHePl4y4-G$: hlpme
SomeMarine *knifekill sprite* [hardcoreclan]$tHePl4y4$.
<b>2) You want to see or kill even a single marine the entire round.</b> By this I’m not counting the really fun end game where one side humiliates the other by killing them in their spawn in the most embarrassing ways imaginable. If you’re playing gorge correctly and have even a few decent players on your team, you’ll start seeing acid kills by fades attacking the marine spawn before you even finish shoring up the defenses at your hives. Only after you’re satisfied with the defenses at both hives should you leave for the front. By now someone else is almost certainly a gorge and hopefully they’re doing a good job of building a forward outpost that the fades and lerks can retreat to for healing. If not, it’s time for you to do it.
As far as gorges at the front healing or building defenses in the early game, there’s nothing more n00blish. For one thing, when weighed against getting the second hive up and increasing the resource pool, base skulks are simply not worth healing and as I’ve already said, by the time you can get up a credible defensive outpost, you could have capped a bunch of resource nodes and got a hive started. Even if you’re the second gorge, it’s far better for you to be out capping resource nodes and trying to set up the third hive/backup second hive, putting down upgrade chambers, etc. Of course, the best thing for you to be doing before the second hive is up is to be dying as a skulk. Don’t even get me started about people who go gorge just so they get a ranged attack and then get killed with 80rp before the second hive is up.
As a side note, quit being “tricky” and building 6 defense chambers in the vent behind the marine spawn on Caged thinking that you’ll build them then go fade or lerk and tear up the marines in their spawn from your impenetrable fortress of healing. Know why? A good commander wants you to put them all up. As soon as he figures you’ve had time to put up five or six chambers he’ll put a siege in spawn, and now he’s got free defenses until your tower dies. Sure, the siege won’t kill all those chambers you screwed your whole team to build right away, but they will kill anything that comes into the spawn while it’s firing. Thanks for grinding any sort of base raid to a grinding halt at the cost of a hive’s worth of rp.
<b>3) You don’t know the map.</b> There’s so many reason for this, it’s not even funny. So many in fact I’ll make a list of them.
a. So you can travel quickly from resource node to resource node in the opening game. You need to be able to travel efficiently in the opening game. Except when you are fast-building a resource collector, you do not want to be sitting still or wandering around looking for resource nodes. Since you should know which hive is most important to take first and which resource nodes are along the way, run to the first one as a skulk and find a safe spot like a vent or rafter to evolve and wait. Even though your skulks should be containing, a lot of really skilled marines like to run out into the map and hit the resource nodes hoping to catch a fat gorge sitting there waiting to build a resource collector. At this point you don’t have to be exposed to discovery so there’s no reason to sit out in the open. Once you get 22 rp, come out of hiding and build a resource collector. Since it’s your first tower and rp income is slow, there isn’t much else you can do for a few minutes so you might as well help build up that resource chamber. Estimate the time to get to the next resource node and when you’ll be at 22 resource again. If you think you’ll be at 22 resources before you get to the next nozzle if you build the current resource chamber to completion, leave it. Continue capping resource nodes until you reach a point where you’ll get to the hive chamber just as you reach 80 resource points. On most maps that’s as simple as capping the resource points directly along the way to the second hive. Like I said, you should be <i>mostly</i> safe, but there’s always a chance that a Rambo could be out there so pay attention and listen for marine sounds. If you hear them, run the other way and call for help because unless you’re the God of Roxoring you’ll just die is he sees you.
b. So you can travel in relative safety. Not knowing the map means you have little idea where you’re mostly safe and mostly dead. As big as some of these maps are, the difference between getting to your next hive and getting to the marine spawn is turning right instead of left. Incase I haven’t made this clear enough yet, marines seeing you is bad. Knifing you is a Marine’s wet dream in Natural Selection, the only thing better is jet-packing on top of a hive with a welder. You want to minimize your contact with marines until the endgame where you’re making healing stations for your fades attacking the marine spawn.
c. So you know where the hives are. This goes without saying, but at least once a day I see a gorge saying “I have 80rp where is the hives?”. This is usually followed shortly by that gorge being killed as he wanders around the map. Remember people, every time a gorge full of RP dies before the 3rd hive is up, Baby Jesus cries in heaven and at <i>least</i> a dozen puppies die here on earth. Avoid it.
d. So you what hive to go after first, if you <i>need</i> a certain hive, or if a certain hive is more trouble than it’s worth. Here’s another thing a lot of people have a hard time understanding: You don’t need to have all three hives, and most likely you’re not going to get all three unless you waste a ton of energy, time, and resources doing it. You want to have as easy a time as you can, and win as fast as you can. Almost all maps have a hive that the marines go for first or a hive that’s almost impossible to hold or get back once it’s built up. Some other maps have protection built in like Ventilation in Caged. Until the marines get jetpacks or weld that fence (which is easy to prevent), Vent is pretty safe from the Sewer side of the map. Also, which hive is going to be easier to hold or take back, Sewer or Generator? Without a doubt, Sewer is way harder to hold than Generator is. Compared to Stability Monitoring, the Sewer Vestibules may as well be open rooms with floodlights…oh wait, they are. The lighting, cover and entrances to Stability make it so that just two skulks can hold it from just about an entire marine team. Not only that, when you hold Generator it’s easy to bypass Sewer or attack it from both sides simply by using the Freight Elevator Access area. That way you can also attack the Marine spawn from both sides and still be able to fall back if needed, whereas if you don’t have Generator you can only attack safely from the Sewer side. Plus, the marines just seem to have a **obscenity** for attacking Sewer hive and who needs that hassle. You only need two Hives to win the game, so let them have Sewer and spend points building it up. By the time they can build it up to where it has a chance of holding, they’ve neglected upgrades and you should have people going fade with level 3 upgrades in at least one category moving in on their spawn. Guess who wins? Unless you start in Sewer, it’s more trouble than it’s worth. On the opposite end of the spectrum, You <i>have</i> to have Feedwater Control on Bast and you need to keep the Marines out of Atmospheric Processing. If you let Marines have Feedwater,or even build up in Atmospheric Processing, you’re boned. They’ll have control of five resource nodes, and the only real rout of attack is through the Tram Tunnel and up into a death trap. Atmospheric Processing and the Reactor Room in Tanith are the <i>only</i> two times it’s acceptable to put up defenses before you start the second hive.
E. So you know what areas are really critical, which ones aren’t, and what to build where to protect them. I see a lot of people putting up a resource collector and then building the Atlantic Wall around it. Learn the choke points and how you can use them to isolate parts of the map. A properly constructed set of defenses in the Freight Elevator Access area can protect the entire Eastern side of the map and five resource nodes until the marines get jetpacks, grenade launchers, or lots of marines with lots of ammo working together. Understand that the best place to put Offensive chambers isn’t right around corners to blindside marines with defense chambers right behind them. The place to put them is so you can get two or three able to fire with about forty game feet of unobstructed firing between them and any place marines might come out, with the defense chambers behind a map feature like a wall or cargo container. Marine weapons have terrible spread at that range and the chances of even three marines taking down three Offense chambers backed by as many or more Defense chambers is pretty slim, and by then help should have arrived. If they try to close range to get better accuracy, they’ll simply die. Putting defensive groups right around corners or behind stuff lets marines strafe out, fire at point blank range for a near 100% hit rate, and strafe back in before the chambers can even react. Killing these when I play marine is my third biggest joy, right behind jetpacking onto hives and knifing gorges. Also, understand the terrain in the area you’re building in. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen defensive clusters that are so obstructed by cargo boxes or so close up against a platform wall that they may as well not be there.
Okay, back to reasons you shouldn’t be a gorge.
<b>4) There are already two gorges</b> Even if they’re the world’s worst gorges, unless you hold about seven resource nodes, you’re not going to be able to do much. And if you had seven resource nodes, they wouldn’t be the world’s worst gorges now would they? Even if you’re only going gorge to put up a resource collector, don’t. By the time you figure in the cost of evolving and then evolving back, building stuff, and slowing resources distribution to a halt, you’re doing more harm than good.
Ugh, I’m so tired of typing.
Okay, here's a quick recap with some bonus wisdom thrown in.
1. Do <i>nothing</i> but cap resources until you get the second hive up. The two exceptions are Atmospheric control in Bast (which is two resource node right there to cap once it's secure) and the Reacto Room in Tanith (ditto)
2. Building 45 points of offense and defense chambers around every resource node before you move on = you suck. You'll probably cost your team the game.
3. Defense or Movement, then the other one, then Sensory if you’ve got nothing better to waste resources on.
4. Offense chambers aren't for getting free unattended kills, they're for <i>temporarily</i> denying territory to the marines. If it kills them great, but scaring them off until they think they can take them out is just about as good.
5. Plan and build for a two hive fight. Three hives is nice but if you can't win with two and full movement and defense upgrades, it was a well deserved win for the marines.
6. Never be the third gorge, and if you're the fourth, uninstall Natural Selection. Seriously
7. If you have two gorges, for God's sake go in different directions. The saddest thing <b>ever</b> is watching two gorges running around together both speed building the same same structure. I take that back. The saddest thing is watching those same two guys getting killed by marines. More than once in a round even. Sinistar and Paantos, I'm looking at you...
8. Stop blocking doors and passageways off completely. It doesn' do anything but slow your own team down and make Onii console kill themselves. Redemption is a useful mutation and this about ruins it.
9. Build redundant upgrade chambers in each of the hives. As long as you've got the chambers at a hive someplace you can still get the upgrades even if you lose that chamber's hive.
<b>10. Never, ever build anything within siege cannon range of the Marine Spawn.</b> They might not have them when you put down those six defense chambers, but sucks to be Kharaa if they build one after you've got them all up.
Comments
All I can say is that's the hazard of pub servers. I say bring on the n00b gorges! Makes it easier for the marines. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And your shifty Marine plan to keep n00bler gorges building eight offense towers and six defense towers at every resource node will fail!!!
GRAAAAAAAAWR!!!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Guys get 4 resource nodes then build the second hive first before you do anything else! FADES ARE THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE GAME. 3 fades working together can cause so much havok at the marine start that the marines will stop building and stop sieging and fall back. Add a lerk with umbra and the marines are done.
If his post was too long for you, here's the skinny:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Do nothing but cap resources until you get the second hive up. The two exceptions are Atmospheric control in Bast (which is two resource node right there to cap once it's secure) and the Reacto Room in Tanith (ditto)
2. Building 45 points of offense and defense chambers around every resource node before you move on = you suck. You'll probably cost your team the game.
3. Defense or Movement, then the other one, then Sensory if you’ve got nothing better to waste resources on.
4. Offense chambers aren't for getting free unattended kills, they're for temporarily denying territory to the marines. If it kills them great, but scaring them off until they think they can take them out is just about as good.
5. Plan and build for a two hive fight. Three hives is nice but if you can't win with two and full movement and defense upgrades, it was a well deserved win for the marines.
6. Never be the third gorge, and if you're the fourth, uninstall Natural Selection. Seriously
7. If you have two gorges, for God's sake go in different directions. The saddest thing ever is watching two gorges running around together both speed building the same same structure. I take that back. The saddest thing is watching those same two guys getting killed by marines. More than once in a round even. Sinistar and Paantos, I'm looking at you...
8. Stop blocking doors and passageways off completely. It doesn' do anything but slow your own team down and make Onii console kill themselves. Redemption is a useful mutation and this about ruins it.
9. Build redundant upgrade chambers in each of the hives. As long as you've got the chambers at a hive someplace you can still get the upgrades even if you lose that chamber's hive.
10. Never, ever build anything within siege cannon range of the Marine Spawn. They might not have them when you put down those six defense chambers, but sucks to be Kharaa if they build one after you've got them all up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theres a lot of little important tips to remember but I'll add one really important thing.
11. COMMUNICATE. Nothing does better to make sure gorges are doing the right thing than to say "Hey whos saving for a hive?" "What hive are you at?" "How many RPs do you have?" These simple questions turn noobs into useful players because they think *Oh, I guess I should be saving for a hive or looking for one* Also tell your skulks where you need backup while you save RPs. "Hey, I need backup at generator hive while I make this FADE-ABILITY DELIVERING HIVE" Make the request attractive. Skulks will come in droves at the chance to one day become a fade superstar.
The problem is that unlike CS, which is a pretty straight forward game, that has a almost non-existent learning curve, NS requires that players read the game manual. I've seen so many noob players play NS, and evolve into a gorge thinking that they are powerhouse fighting machines, and then they discover they can build structures so put up a sensory chamber...
But then again, you'll get bad gorges and you'll get bad commanders, you can't nominate to eject a bad gorge, but a bad commander is always worse than a bad gorge.
Bad gorges might not come to this board. They might not be able to read. But YOU can! If you don't see gorges doing what they are supposed to do, nip it in the bud IMMEADIATELY. Ask them what they are doing and make sure you get an answer. If you don't like the answer, school them.
And actually contrary to what A LOT of people say I will occasionally be the third gorge just because the first two are royally fubaring the works. People whine and complain about it, but when I get several resources and a hive set up, they always pipe down and go fade. And also when people complain about 3 gorges it usually makes the gorge who doesn't know what he is doing decide to go do something else. I hate even mentioning that because you should only do that if you ABSOLUTELY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING. But sometimes its just necessary; we would lose otherwise.
However, I'd like to point out that Hera is also a pretty weird map. Start in archiving and try to find four resource nodes that are reasonably safe... it's pretty much impossible. There, I'd try real hard to make sure skulks hold the maint area - that stops the marines from opening the way between their base and general storage as well. Which protects the holoroom. There, you may be forced to build defenses and heal skulks if the marines tries to push hard for maint, maybe even before building more than one res tower.
But for most maps, getting 4 res towers down means hit hyper-production at about 7-8 minutes ... in an 8-player game, that means the single gorge is getting 80 res a minute, barring noobish behavior from the rest of the team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me, but what is wrong with that?
Why is it so hard for people to change there playing style?
I wads recently a gorge, on a 3 vs 3 game, i put sensory first. My teamates flipped out.
Well they evolved cloacking, and totally kicked the marines butts. One guy went 7 and 0 before he finally died. Could he have done that with carapace? Probably not. Level 3 does hel pthe skulk alot, but when you can take a marine compltly by surprise its good.
You have to know the people your fighting, and the map, before you choose your chambers.
7 minutes from the beggaing, i had all 3 recources, and went to save a hive. Few minutes later, they had defensive chamber. Now, we have skulks who can take damage, and be complty hidden.
Excuse me, iam sorry, but we won 15 minutes later.
Sensory is good early game, but you need to know how to change your **obscenity** playing style.
Iam sick of people like you.
Gorges! Say when your creating a damn hive! Sick of rushing to its aid moments after seeing the damn icon start filling up... oh, and make sure its site is clear. Turrets are hive-death incarnate.
Well they evolved cloacking, and totally kicked the marines butts. One guy went 7 and 0 before he finally died. Could he have done that with carapace? Probably not. Level 3 does hel pthe skulk alot, but when you can take a marine compltly by surprise its good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, thats fine for a 3 vs 3 game, which is a different game from a 8+ vs 8+ game.
You talk about understanding the other teams playing styles, but you fail to mention your own teams playing style, which I feel is more important.
The problem I have with sensory, is that most gorges choose it because it helps <i>them</i> rather than the team, since the gorge doesn't move as fast as a skulk, he's sometimes better off being invisible.
Anyhow, I think that the gorge should consult their teammates before they decide what they think is good for the team.
Another thing is my pet peeve is when a skulk turns into a gorge for like 1 minute so he can cap a rs node then turning back to skulk. When I play on a smaller server I need all the help I can get. So that single skulk can get kills while I be bait but nooooo. What people need to understand is in the begining skulk have to ALWAYS keep the pressure on the marines.
The worst part about newbs is the fact that they don't listen. I was an attentive newbie, went gorge cuz there were none, and someone told me what to do. 2 hrs later, I was the only gorge for 3 strait maps and we didn't lose once ( I won't state how much the marines sucked, thats besides the point <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .)
Give them a chance, and teach them as you go. Don't flame someone for a bad opinion, and don't degrade newbs simply because of what they are. Unless you're a playtester, you're a newb too, this game has only been out for what... 31 days? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But really though I kinda feel sorry for the 12 year olds cause they probaly don't know how to set up a Lan and they would'nt want to read about NS anyway.
I've seen a team from nearly extinct to nearly winning, this IS NOT Starcraft so its not the MOST of anything that wins, its well placed items and smart movement that wins, Its like TA (great game btw) you got to work properly together with planning and such. I was playing a game and got bitched out for being a second Gorge TRYING to defind our hive on ns_nothing while our gorge went out and did nothing useful... Then I got bitched out when i went to a lerk becuase we were overrun and i just hid in the ceiling annoying the marines tring to give us a fighting chance. So I'm sick of those who **obscenity** me out basicly.
uhh Keep on workin together THIS IS OUR HIVE MIND !
I prefer to evolve before reaching the first node site, which allows me to build resources at the Gorge rate (3X) while walking there. Most 1st nodes are safe, but there are exceptions of course. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
7 and 0? so what? With carapace I've gotten 21 and 0.
Personally, I never gripe at someone going gorge to protect a hive, especially if we have at least 4 res nodes. But we can't afford, as a group, to have 2 gorge starting. If we have a good group of people working, then there is no need honestly for a 2nd gorge, one can do all the work until there are plenty of resources flowing in for someone to go gorge just because they like it.
|DVDA| Fawkes is a hella good gorge, the only one we needed for 2 games, and I'm picky about my gorges ( I like mah fades asap mind j00, considering I suck at lerk, hehe.)
Always get 3 - 4 nozzles before you get a 2nd hive.
Never put up any off/def chambers til you get a 2nd hive.
Must be nice, where do you find the stupid marines, the ones that never move out and attack your hives early? Or the supa!skulks that can always keep the marines pinned in their base.
Getting a def chamber up asap is incredibly helpful, for the entire team. Should be done as soon as the first RT goes up. The sooner your skulks get carapace, the sooner they become twice as effective.
And if you are waiting for the 3rd or 4th RT before saving for the hive, you are waiting too long.
Waaaaay too long.
Grab _one RT, and have one of your two gorges save for a hive, while the other grabs more RTs and puts up a few chambers to keep your hive and gorge alive. That third gorge? Kick him.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... omg im crying!!!
Well, im sorry theres alot of new players to this mod (uh, considering its sorta brand spanking new), imho, I think you should go looking for better servers(clan) when those guys come around <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> , after all, this is just a game and most of those nubs are un-taticaly(thats my new word I made up, really) educated. Heh, I had a game a few nights ago where a rouge gorg insisted on placing movement chambers on every node he crossed <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> , oh well, we won that game anyways. You do have every right to get angry because your gaming is being ruined, but you can't be mad at unintentional nubs trying to figure this game out. This has GOT to be lthe fifth or six topic concerning "OMFG NUB" this or that. Why not try "helping" the poor guy out, and if all else fails, i know of 500+ other servers out there that can gladly use a good player.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Many of you will argue that there?s more than one way to victory or that my definition of good gorge-work isn?t universally applicable: you?re wrong<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is just plain rude, and as a matter of fact this game is designed <i>for</i> multiple ways of victory; heck, I'd like to see a nice marine rush to that unprotected hive of yours while your off getting your second node. Hey, the way I see it, if a gorg makes a couple of mistakes, it just makes the game that more interesting than winning the same way over and over if you catch my drift <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
$.02
It's the "I-don't-need-your-help" n00bs everyone hates; the ones that don't read the manual, don't listen, and think they're God's gift to NS. And if you disagree with them putting up sensory first thing and surrounding it with 5 OCs for protection, then you must be the n00b, since they <b>obviously</b> know how to play. It's <i>these</i> players you want to punch in the face repeatedly; not <i>all</i> n00bs, just the idiot ones. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Second, I don't care about scores, and neither should you. If you want to impress me, don't tell me you went 7/0, or 21/0; tell you me went 6/9 but took down their TF 3 times and munched a couple marines every time they went to rebuild. <i>That's</i> what I care about; your deaths are completely and totally <b>irrelevant!</b>
Third, while the game is designed for multiple methods and strategies, the game is still not perfect. Right now there are only a few ways that will really, truly work against a team that knows what it's doing... and you should always assume that the team you're playing against is one of them. Eventually I'm sure that you'll see multiple strategies and paths to victory; but even then the number will be small. You cannot expect to use any strategy that strikes your mind and expect it to work. It has to either be a <i>solid</i> strategy, or a high-risk-big-payoff one, or it's destined to fail. A perfect example would be a gorge-heavy starting strategy; it cannot reasonably be expected to work except against the worst of marine teams.
Forth, all the dissent over the number of gorges, RTs before 2nd hive, defenses, and so on revolve around your skulks not doing their job. Sure, they won't be able to keep the marines bottled up forever, but they should be able to keep them occupied at least long enough for the gorges to set up their initial structures unopposed. I usually go for about 3 or 4 extra RTs before I start saving for a hive, but that's because I'm used to good skulks who know their role: constant, nonstop suicide runs, without evolutions of any type. I live with one of them, so I can almost always rely on at least <i>one</i> skulk I can count on to pull his weight or more. So far it's worked exceedingly well, and my team is never hurting for resources. This has worked well both against mediocre marine teams, and some fairly decent ones, so I'm confident it's a pretty solid strategy. Still, draw on your own experience and find the build order that works best for you (in the long run).
Finally, my rule of thumb is 1 gorge per 4-6 players. Any more than 6 and a second gorge becomes very helpful, so in a 12v12 game or larger a third gorge wouldn't be as bad an idea as everyone says. Still, I've found 2 gorges is an excellent limit, with 1 for the smaller games.
Always get 3 - 4 nozzles before you get a 2nd hive.
Never put up any off/def chambers til you get a 2nd hive.
Must be nice, where do you find the stupid marines, the ones that never move out and attack your hives early? Or the supa!skulks that can always keep the marines pinned in their base.
Getting a def chamber up asap is incredibly helpful, for the entire team. Should be done as soon as the first RT goes up. The sooner your skulks get carapace, the sooner they become twice as effective.
Grab _one RT, and have one of your two gorges save for a hive, while the other grabs more RTs and puts up a few chambers to keep your hive and gorge alive. That third gorge? Kick him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn right; no halfway-competent marine team is going to let you get away with this "no defenses" crap. Depending on the map, my usually stategy is to do the closest node to our starting hive, then 2 OTs and a DT at a chokepoint that defends that node <i>and</i> the hive at the same time. Then, I do my second node at the hive location I think the marines are going to leave alone. Then, back to main hive to defend the other entrance, then minimal defenses for future hive #2, then save for hive 2, then move on for more nodes. Web the **obscenity** out of the chokepoints, send in the fades for hive #3...
This is very successful on pub servers, because it covers all of your bases. You get a DT or two up for your skulks earlier (which really increases their effectiveness; yes they are expendable, but they aren't doing us any good while spending 60 seconds REIN then commuting back to the action). Also your hives are protected from the rambos.
In short, a good post, but you are assuming that the marines are going to cooperate. You cannot count on your skulks being able to contain the marines at all.
The only exception to this, in my opinion, is BAST. There, I make it my priority to take Main Aft Junction ASAP; the node, then a meatwall blocking the revolving door. This serves 4 purposes with one chokepoint! It cuts off one of only 2 exits for the marines, it leaves that critical vent into their base unwelded, it defends your engine room hive <i>and</i> it secures a node (really 2 since you also get the engine room node). And if you know how to place, you can still avoid seige damage, even in 1.03. (basically place a DT up on the 45 degree angle btw the wall and floor; the chamber itself takes little to no damage, and the seige shockwave isnt on the same plane as the floor so it normally does no damage to friendlies).
p.s. I like how if I said that in any other context it'd be fightin' time.
Always get 3 - 4 nozzles before you get a 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, always. There are only two hives you can start at out of all the maps in the game that you won’t have that many by simply taking what’s usually the shortest path between two hives. If you’re the only gorge and the second hive’s resource node is the fourth one you’ve capped, you’ll usually have 70-some resource points and a few seconds wait by the time you waddle over to where you can build the hive, 60-some points if it's your third node.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Never put up any off/def chambers til you get a 2nd hive.
Must be nice, where do you find the stupid marines, the ones that never move out and attack your hives early? Or the supa!skulks that can always keep the marines pinned in their base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don’t find them, playing against them is a waste of time. You must have missed the part where I said that the marines will break out and there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent it. The key is to have the skulks slow them enough to keep them from running roughshod all over the map. Also, about 95% of marines will run for a hive and try to take it over after you’re done rushing them. If they’re rushing the hive you start in, great – that means there should be a concentration of skulks to defend it, and they have a much smaller time to get reinforcements to the area of contention. If they can’t keep it defended, then like I said – they suck and you’re better off losing quickly and reshuffling the teams rather than playing a protracted round of suck. If the marines want to rush out and take one of your empty hives, so what? Unless it’s Feedwater Control, let them. They’ll spend all sorts of resources building it up, and 90 out of 100 times you won’t even need to go near it to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Getting a def chamber up asap is incredibly helpful, for the entire team. Should be done as soon as the first RT goes up. The sooner your skulks get carapace, the sooner they become twice as effective. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see your point here, but in my opinion it’s still not worth the delay in getting the second resource chamber up. With a one gorge game it’s only a matter of a few minutes difference if you put it up after the first resource chamber or wait until after the second hive started. Building it while your resource points are still pretty slow coming in can add a serious chunk of time onto the process. I still say it’s better to wait. *shrug*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And if you are waiting for the 3rd or 4th RT before saving for the hive, you are waiting too long. Waaaaay too long. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the whole process as I outlined it takes under five minutes. Most pub marines are still busy at filling all their guns up to MAXIMUM AMMUNITION!11!! at that point. Doing it my way also has the advantage of minimizing the damage done if you get popped while you’re at the hive site. As the only gorge with three or four towers it only takes you a minute to go from zero to eighty resources, and if you get killed it’s a loss of some points but you get them back fast. If you cap one resource node and then go sit around waiting for 80 points, not only are you wasting time doing nothing for no good reason, but if you get popped while you’re waiting to put a hive up your team is boned, especially if you’ve got two gorges. It’ll take forever to build all those points back up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Grab _one RT, and have one of your two gorges save for a hive, while the other grabs more RTs and puts up a few chambers to keep your hive and gorge alive. That third gorge? Kick him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, two gorges is a huge waste of resources unless one of them sucks and you <i>have</i> to have a second one to get things going. Even if no one takes any upgrades or evolves to lerk, it almost doubles the amount of time it takes to get the second hive up. With a single gorge, once you start the second hive you’re able to place all three of your first upgrade chambers and some offense chambers less than a minute later. By the time the second hive is done growing you can plunk down your second upgrade right away. With the single gorge system I outlined, saving for a second hive is unnecessary: between the time you’ve placed the last resource chamber and gotten to where you can build the hive you’re almost ready to put it up.
This is very successful on pub servers, because it covers all of your bases. You get a DT or two up for your skulks earlier (which really increases their effectiveness; yes they are expendable, but they aren't doing us any good while spending 60 seconds REIN then commuting back to the action). Also your hives are protected from the rambos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmmm…By the time you’ve built the two OT and a DT, I’ll already be putting the second hive up, or within a minute of doing it. It really is that fast. After getting over the initial hurdle of saving for the first resource chamber it’s literally as fast as walking to the next hive and capping stuff along the way (unless the second node is close to the first). Once that’s done I go back and solidify defenses while fades run all over the map spamming acid rockets. At this point I’m happy if a second person goes gorge and tends the front lines. My idea of successful gorging is winding back up in the ready room without ever seeing a single marine within weapons range of me. As far as what the marines <i>let</i> me get away with, it’s out of their control - even if they manage to intercept and kill me. Using my method I’m never over 33 resource points so the team doesn’t lose anything, resource gain upon re-gorging is fast, and I’m never hanging around a resource node where they can find me. Plus, there’s almost always a skulk escort to keep me safe As far as the marines taking out the hive, I’ve always said that if 7-9 skulks can’t keep as many marines out of the hive area no amount of building on my part can change the inevitable outcome of the round. I’d rather get it over with quickly and move onto fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In short, a good post, but you are assuming that the marines are going to cooperate. You cannot count on your skulks being able to contain the marines at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks. Like I said, my plan doesn’t count on any one thing a whole lot. Marines love to spend time getting ammo and fortifying that hive they ran to. That in and of itself is usually plenty of time for me to get the job done, skulks killing rambos and looky-loos is a safety margin. Most of what I depend on is myself and my headphone/mic, as they’re the only things I can control
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only exception to this, in my opinion, is BAST. There, I make it my priority to take Main Aft Junction ASAP; the node, then a meatwall blocking the revolving door. This serves 4 purposes with one chokepoint! It cuts off one of only 2 exits for the marines, it leaves that critical vent into their base unwelded, it defends your engine room hive and it secures a node (really 2 since you also get the engine room node). And if you know how to place, you can still avoid seige damage, even in 1.03. (basically place a DT up on the 45 degree angle btw the wall and floor; the chamber itself takes little to no damage, and the seige shockwave isnt on the same plane as the floor so it normally does no damage to friendlies).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’ve got to strongly disagree with you here. Unless you start out in Engine Room, it and Aft Main Juction just aren’t worth bothering with. The whole siege issue is a pain I’d rather avoid, and even if the build up a second base there all they get is a resource node, and unless they spend a million rp on turrets and factories, they won’t hold onto Aft Main’s resource point. Letting them use Aft Main as an egress to the rest of the map is about as good as it get too. They have the choice of a long dark elevator shaft with a ladder they’ll die if the fall off, a long dark elevator shaft with a ladder they’ll die if the fall off, and through the EM Drillshaft and vents with half a dozen blind turns and doorways that will eventually let them out into your Refinery Hive’s defenses. If they try to defend against you coming up from the Drillshaft, Water Treatment Elevator, and the Lower Junction it will literally drive them broke. Add in the fact that the hive has the best vent access from just about anywhere in the map, and that’s <i>exactly</i> where I want the marines to build up thinking it’s safe. The vent into their Docking Bay spawn is one of the few in the game that you can break open after its welded, and then it’s unweldable again until the next time the map comes up in rotation. Let them weld away.
The truly critical hive on this map is Feedwater Control and in order to prevent a marine sweep you have to keep them out of Atmospheric Processing. This is one of the very few times I break with my single gorge theory. Keep at least 3 skulks in Atmospheric with you and put up some defense chambers between the platform and the closest resource node. Then build a collector on one of the nodes. As soon as you can afford it, build an offensive chamber on the edge of the platform so that it has a firing arc that allows it to cover the catwalk hallway and most of the room. Build the second collector and wait for a few minutes. If the marines are persistent, plunk down a second OC and quick-build it while the skulks keep them busy. As soon as you can afford it, put at least three offensive chambers on the other side of the wall, right up against it in the Aft Starboard Corridor. The more you can put down the better. Go back and put in your maximum Defense Chambers along that wall. Keeping the Offense chambers along that wall keeps them out of siege range from anyplace in their spawn. It also keeps them in the healing range of your defensive chamber while at the same time keeping your defensive chambers safe from damage. It also has the added bonus of being a great healing are for all the fades that spam acid rockets up the shaft into their spawn, encouraging fades to hang around the area incase the marines try to make a push past all the offense chamber you have sealing off that exit from their spawn. On the other hand, if you let them have Feedwater, they’ll control five resource nodes and the hardest hive site for the Kharaa to get back. Five resource nodes means you’ll be seeing fully upgraded heavy armor, heavy machine gun marines before you get fades.
Refinery you want because it’s the middle hive and consolidates your area of influence on the map.
With the Feedwater/Refinery combo you solidly control 7 resource nodes to their 2, maybe 3 nodes, and you control what is for them the easiest, fastest exit from the spawn. A side effect of letting them have Engine room is they may focus resources and time on fortifying that section of the map rather than on upgrades, weapons, and armor, especially if a lerk or fade goes through Docking Hydraulics into the vent and attacks what they have in there.
With the Engine/Refinery combo you control 4, maybe 5 nodes to their lock on 5 nodes, the fastest way out of their spawn with the most overall map access, and they’ll be able to easily be able to siege you from their spawn, offensive turret into Aft junction to cut you in half, as well as offensive turret right into your refinery hive from the Tram Tunnel. With that many resources, they’ll be able to research, aggressively build structures, <i>and</i> lavishly equip themselves. And good luck trying to get Feedwater back.
The Feedwater/Engine combo has the benefit of theoretically cutting them off from the map entirely, but I’ve yet to see it work really well in practice. They don’t have anything to do but research upgrades, make suicide rushes, and make sneaky forays into the vents by crawling into them while the elevator goes down. I personally think it’s easier to let them beat themselves by tossing them Engine Room, letting them think they’re accomplishing something, and then hammering them.
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Excuse me, but what is wrong with that?
Why is it so hard for people to change there playing style?
I wads recently a gorge, on a 3 vs 3 game, i put sensory first. My teamates flipped out.
Well they evolved cloacking, and totally kicked the marines butts. One guy went 7 and 0 before he finally died. Could he have done that with carapace? Probably not. Level 3 does hel pthe skulk alot, but when you can take a marine compltly by surprise its good.
You have to know the people your fighting, and the map, before you choose your chambers.
7 minutes from the beggaing, i had all 3 recources, and went to save a hive. Few minutes later, they had defensive chamber. Now, we have skulks who can take damage, and be complty hidden.
Excuse me, iam sorry, but we won 15 minutes later.
Sensory is good early game, but you need to know how to change your **obscenity** playing style.
Iam sick of people like you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lighten up man.
yes you may have to change strategy depending on circumstances. but a 3 vs 3 game is hardly a standard NS game. that's like... a whole -2- marines in the field: 3 skulks could have eaten them and their spawnpoints within a few minutes of the start of the game. then you don't even need a gorge.
before getting into special strategies, shouldn't gorges know the basics?
that's all this guy that you'r getting sick of is doing: explaining the basics of the gorge, which many newbie players need explained. it has not been said this is the -only- way to play, but it is a good general strategy.
now go take your pills ore something.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only exception to this, in my opinion, is BAST. There, I make it my priority to take Main Aft Junction ASAP; the node, then a meatwall blocking the revolving door. This serves 4 purposes with one chokepoint! It cuts off one of only 2 exits for the marines, it leaves that critical vent into their base unwelded, it defends your engine room hive and it secures a node (really 2 since you also get the engine room node). And if you know how to place, you can still avoid seige damage, even in 1.03. (basically place a DT up on the 45 degree angle btw the wall and floor; the chamber itself takes little to no damage, and the seige shockwave isnt on the same plane as the floor so it normally does no damage to friendlies).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’ve got to strongly disagree with you here. Unless you start out in Engine Room, it and Aft Main Juction just aren’t worth bothering with. The whole siege issue is a pain I’d rather avoid, and even if the build up a second base there all they get is a resource node, and unless they spend a million rp on turrets and factories, they won’t hold onto Aft Main’s resource point. Letting them use Aft Main as an egress to the rest of the map is about as good as it get too. They have the choice of a long dark elevator shaft with a ladder they’ll die if the fall off, a long dark elevator shaft with a ladder they’ll die if the fall off, and through the EM Drillshaft and vents with half a dozen blind turns and doorways that will eventually let them out into your Refinery Hive’s defenses. If they try to defend against you coming up from the Drillshaft, Water Treatment Elevator, and the Lower Junction it will literally drive them broke. Add in the fact that the hive has the best vent access from just about anywhere in the map, and that’s <i>exactly</i> where I want the marines to build up thinking it’s safe. The vent into their Docking Bay spawn is one of the few in the game that you can break open after its welded, and then it’s unweldable again until the next time the map comes up in rotation. Let them weld away.
The Feedwater/Engine combo has the benefit of theoretically cutting them off from the map entirely, but I’ve yet to see it work really well in practice. They don’t have anything to do but research upgrades, make suicide rushes, and make sneaky forays into the vents by crawling into them while the elevator goes down. I personally think it’s easier to let them beat themselves by tossing them Engine Room, letting them think they’re accomplishing something, and then hammering them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We'll just have to agree to disagree on the general strat. I can tell you now that you aren't "building hive 2" by the time I have my 1 node, 2 OTs and DT down; I've only spent 42rps there, which would allow you to have maybe one other node up at the same time (since nodes take much longer to speed-build).
As for Engine room, Main Aft <i>is</i> critical, because if they control it, they have access to the lower levels, and a easy walk to both the refinery and the feedwater hives. And you will never get atmospheric processing from intelligent marines; that is the <b>very first</b> thing they will go for, and it's right next to their base. Unless you started in feedwater, its too long of a commute for your skulks. By the time your first wave gets back there after having died, the TF is up.
I agree that feedwater is critical, but I beleive that Main Aft is more important; by controlling it, you get 2 nodes, a hive, vent access to the marine base and you cut the marines' exits in <i>HALF</i>. Doing this allows you to control the marines, so yer fighting a one-front war instead of 2 fronts.
It's all about controlling chokepoints, and making your enemy go where you want them to go.
As a side note, quit being “tricky” and building 6 defense chambers in the vent behind the marine spawn on Caged thinking that you’ll build them then go fade or lerk and tear up the marines in their spawn from your impenetrable fortress of healing. Know why? A good commander wants you to put them all up. As soon as he figures you’ve had time to put up five or six chambers he’ll put a siege in spawn, and now he’s got free defenses until your tower dies. Sure, the siege won’t kill all those chambers you screwed your whole team to build right away, but they will kill anything that comes into the spawn while it’s firing. Thanks for grinding any sort of base raid to a grinding halt at the cost of a hive’s worth of rp.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got to say I disagree with you there. The "defense towers behind marine base" tactic is very useful as a diversion, or a prelude to a base attack. Of course this tactic should NOT be used until you have at least two hives up and a reasonable number of resources secured. Also, a lone lerk sitting in the vent, surviving for WAY too long, accompanied by multiple "healing" sounds, is a dead giveaway. Prevent that by "keeping up the front"- use umbra, preferably get someone else attacking from the doors, etc.
The problem is that you're assuming that
a) The commander is good enough to figure out there are defensive towers
b) You have nobody else harassing the marine base with you.
A short tour in the public servers will convince you that a) is not generally true, although it is slowly beginning to change, at which point this WILL become an obsolete tactic. As it stands now, a gorge that builds this diverts precious attention from the marines and most of all, the Commander, allowing aliens elsewhere to cap nozzles, build up some defenses, destroy marine outposts, etc.
When I use this tactic (appropriate times to use this is rare, I'll admit, but NOT nonexistent), I tell my alien teammates to attack the base, I've put healing in the vent. Usually, one or two show up in the vent to start harassing their base, and that keeps their attention from whatever they were doing- fortifying the third hive, attacking our second one, etc. I'm free to go elsewhere, and really actually BUILD.
In actuality, the APPROPRIATE time to do this:
a) ONLY if the Commander is obviously not expecting this. If you see important structures within view of the vent (especially the turret factory- few commanders build TWO in the base), then it's a good sign.
b) Of course, you must know there are no siege cannons in the base.
c) Your situation is in need of a diversion. Perhaps they've build a huge base at the third hive- or maybe they've built a phase gated base right outside your second hive. Maybe some important high-traffic area is being attacked. Perhaps, you're even down to the last hive and you desperately need to push to get one hive back. You WANT to divert their manpower and the Commander's attention elsewhere. This is a good time.
d) If they seal the vent up, most likely they'll no longer be expecting anyone in the vents. Surprise them by using a skulk to go THROUGH the base, into the vent.
The time NOT to do this:
a) If the commander has proven to be smart. This is an easy tactic to counter, if the commander's smart enough to keep his cool.
b) If you're planning to assault the marine base. NEVER do this- not only might the scenario described above happen, but most likely some other gorge will start building defenses right outside their door, and the Commander builds a siege in response. Guess which structures are closer?
c) You're short on resources and/or income. This is a diversion tactic to be used occasionally, not a generally-recommended strategy for all time.
And i didn't type that post in anger or any other kind of emotion except flacid response.
There will always be the newbie gorge, and they will always choose somthing you don't like.
Just adpat your playing style.
Someone disagreed with me before, but its true.
Aliens are flexibble, marines are not.
(For those of you who don't understand that concept, its that kharaa can use a diffrent strategy, for every hive, every map, every upgrade. Marines need to move quickly, every map, no matter the number of players, or the skill of players.)
Btw, iam not on any kind of medication.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And i didn't type that post in anger or any other kind of emotion except flacid response.
There will always be the newbie gorge, and they will always choose somthing you don't like.
Just adpat your playing style.
Someone disagreed with me before, but its true.
Aliens are flexibble, marines are not.
(For those of you who don't understand that concept, its that kharaa can use a diffrent strategy, for every hive, every map, every upgrade. Marines need to move quickly, every map, no matter the number of players, or the skill of players.)
Btw, iam not on any kind of medication.
***Double posted it, but i think its required. Enjoy.***