pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1721156:date=Aug 7 2009, 07:58 AM:name=grepdashv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grepdashv @ Aug 7 2009, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bite needs no alt-fire, nor should it have one. In fact, none of the alien abilities should probably have an alt-fire, and very few of the marine weapons should. For the aliens, the second mouse button should be used for movement abilities for the classes that have them, healspray for gorge, and spores for the lerk (unless something like diving or perching is implemented). For the marines, alt-fire would make sense for things like rolling a grenade instead of throwing it, toggling a mine between proximity and trip mode, or using a welder in some novel way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Couldn't agree more.
You, the devs, bring up some controversial stuff like the taser replacing pistol and knife and removing HA, for the sake of having less work in the art sector and then you plan on adding alt-fire to the alien weapons...for the sake of having another fancy line in the game's feature list? The aliens already have like 4? weapons (+movement ability?), I think that's enough. If you really look for more workload for your art-team, bring back the knife and pistol :p
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After every update I feel more and more disappointed. Hate to be that guy but I'm sorry guys, you are doing it wrong. Those flipping changes in the alien classes are weird... What are you thinking, seriously, who is making this to you Frayra? Did you ever consider just keeping the original gameplay with the new engine? It would be great. Seriously, you are trashing the best part of your own master piece. Please, please give us just the NS1 with the new engine, I'll pay for it whatever you want. NS2 will be in the trash can in the 10 minutes mark after the release of the beta. You are losing the compass, get back to the roots of your own idea and give us what we played the last 6 years every night and never got old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must agree with above, You seem to be discarding parts of NS1 that were key features. Isn't the idea to improve on the original instead of heading in a different direction. Whilst I don't necessarily want NS1 repeated, I do think that you will be ruining the feel of NS by removing all the little things.
I just hope that this new skulk hasn't lost the speed aspect that NS1 had, because it would be a shame
I'm not sure about the parasite removal. The two major key functions of late game skulk were res biting and parasiting. How is the new skulk going to make itself viable later on in the game? The assumably slower leap doesn't help in the late game either.
Instead of removing Parasite, how about just evolving it? I'm thinking of a Parasite that does a different effect depending on where you hit the marine
If you shoot the <b>stomach</b>, the marine becomes sligthly damaged like the NS1 parasite
If you shoot the <b>arms</b>, the marine's aim would become slightly impaired(thus making it a little harder to aim)
If you shoot the <b>legs</b>, the marine will be unable to jump OR walk/run a little slower for a short time
If you shoot the <b>head</b>, the marine would get a "flashbang" sort of effect (perhaps make some parts of the screen infestion-like(something like an onos stomach). This effect would fade away after no more than 1 second and maybe make the marine get a SLIGHTLY dizzy and unclear vision for a very small time after the parasite. This would be great for confusing the enemy, ambushing and also for retreating. This would not be too imbalanced, since it requires skill to aim to the head(and the effect doesn't last very long anyway). It'd also encourage teamwork. Imagine a skulk parasiting the head of a marine from afar while another skulk moves in for the kill. Marines would be more likely to stay in groups. Of course, it might even be too hard to aim at the head to prove useful, but it's an interesting feature.
To balance, parasite has a small cooldown. (1 second or so) Making the cooldown too long would make the ability useless if the player misses.
I know "disabling abilities" are usually frowned upon but I think this would be very interesting, and the effects aren't that major and doesn't last very long. This would be interesting, encourage teamwork and require skill.
<b>Slash:</b> Close range BUT it will turn the marine 180 degrees around so skulks can bite his back and this messes marines aim alot but will not disable him. explanation: It's like very strong fist blow in boxing on your cheek which will send you drifting towards floor.
Yes, even I think this is somehow silly. Imagine 2 skulks slashing one marine 180 degrees again and again and again and again... It would be like russian rulette but NS2 style.
I very strongly disagree with the grappling ability for the skulk.
It would be used <i>every frikkin' time</i>. I always found that the disabling abilities in Left 4 Dead were on the verge of being very, very annoying. Their only saving graces was that predictable AI were using them, the entire team was alerted to the event of being disabled, it was a heavy team-focused game, and it was a campaign game.
Give disabling powers to actual players; ones that can't be countered by those being disabled, and that is complete and utter foolishness. It is terrible.
Bite alternative fire should be Leap.
Or perhaps, instead of set-in-stone alt-fire abilities for aliens, one should be able to map all the different abilities to different buttons on the keyboard, or to different alt-fires of primary abilities. Thus, some players would have parasite or grapple paired with bite, and others would have leap paired with bite. You might even want to switch to xenocide paired with leap.
It would incredibly easy to do this, has already been implemented (to an extent), and would make everyone happy. Please give the aliens options to customize their alt-fires.
<!--quoteo(post=1721159:date=Aug 7 2009, 06:06 AM:name=C4K3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C4K3 @ Aug 7 2009, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After every update I feel more and more disappointed. Hate to be that guy but I'm sorry guys, you are doing it wrong. Those flipping changes in the alien classes are weird... What are you thinking, seriously, who is making this to you Frayra? Did you ever consider just keeping the original gameplay with the new engine? It would be great. Seriously, you are trashing the best part of your own master piece. Please, please give us just the NS1 with the new engine, I'll pay for it whatever you want. NS2 will be in the trash can in the 10 minutes mark after the release of the beta. You are losing the compass, get back to the roots of your own idea and give us what we played the last 6 years every night and never got old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure there'll be a mod that's exactly what you're looking for eventually. But I kinda don't wanna play NS1, I wanna play NS2.
"Too easy to die, too easy to be nothing more than a kamikaze teeth-missile."
Love that.
Anyway, Alt Bite: Acid Spit A Damage over time that disintegrates armour and helps take out structures.
Dynamics: While bite does X dmg to a structure, you put a DOT Acid Spit on the same structure that does initial damage of 10pts, and then 2 pts every 2 seconds, renews this effect timer with everybite. (sort of like the paladin from World of Warcraft, you put a seal on a target then renew the timer with each strike).
And if you spit at marines, 10pts initial damage, then 2d per 2s again, renewed by bite also, but range is reduced over distance. (Total 20 dmg pts if bite doesn't renew the effect). Maybe the shot will arc with gravity? (Like medic's needle gun upgrade, TF2)
I'm sure THAT would bait marines into doing something stupid. "Oh no my new armor! You'll paaaay for that!" *CHARGE*
Heavy armor would reduce the effect by 50% Upgrades to armor (tech tree) would also decrease this effect. (+25% per level of tech)
Not much art work involved, a greeny yellow globby spit thing. Makes a sizzle sound on contact. Or metal buckling noises.
Could be used to deform the environment?
Stemming from this idea, For the Gorge: I think Bile's alt could be a sticky effect, slows you down for a few sec 3-5sec, helps gorge get away, and slow down the 'rine for other Kharaa. Would also let those noobs who do a Bile Attack on Rines actually do some good. Instead of making said noob gorge's team facepalm.
Lerk could have a bombing alt with similar properties. Fly over, bomb structures causing them dmg, temp. interrupts or sticky/slow effect on rines.
my take on grapple: a single marine CAN melee off a grappling skulk, but his effectiveness in doing so should be related to where the skulk bit him. A leg grapple should be easy to shoot/melee off, but on the back should take several melees for the marine to shake off the grappler, while the skulk deals damage the whole time. If the skulk manages to grapple from behind it should have a large advantage during that engagement, but if it gets a bad grapple (shaken off right away) it would have been better off with bite
and of course the grappled marine could be slowed, and other marines can shoot the skulk off etc.
No ability should completely disable a player on the other team - a grapple that does this is a bad way to handle things. The reason this works in L4D is that it is a CO-OP game where all your teammates are expected to be right with you at all times; unless you're already about to lose you should always have a counter nearby, even if you can't counter the attack yourself.
As for parasite variants, I think para as it was in NS1 suited the scout role of the skulk very well, but it isn't necessary in NS2 as the scouting is done by the commander. Low damage pinging ability is ok I guess, but there are better things out there. para replacement shouldn't impair vision or disable the marine though, I think it would be better to save that kind of attack for the gorge - it needs it more for self defense
<!--quoteo(post=1721167:date=Aug 7 2009, 12:59 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Aug 7 2009, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I very strongly disagree with the grappling ability for the skulk.
It would be used <i>every frikkin' time</i>. I always found that the disabling abilities in Left 4 Dead were on the verge of being very, very annoying. Their only saving graces was that predictable AI were using them, the entire team was alerted to the event of being disabled, it was a heavy team-focused game, and it was a campaign game.
Give disabling powers to actual players; ones that can't be countered by those being disabled, and that is complete and utter foolishness. It is terrible.
Bite alternative fire should be Leap.
Or perhaps, instead of set-in-stone alt-fire abilities for aliens, one should be able to map all the different abilities to different buttons on the keyboard, or to different alt-fires of primary abilities. Thus, some players would have parasite or grapple paired with bite, and others would have leap paired with bite. You might even want to switch to xenocide paired with leap.
It would incredibly easy to do this, has already been implemented (to an extent), and would make everyone happy. Please give the aliens options to customize their alt-fires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sad to hear about parasite being removed, but I do agree with the other suggestion that if you don't want it to be doing the team scouting, have it be a short-term scouting device strictly for the skulk that fired it.
I was also thinking that if you want to make it good for goading marines, have it interrupt the nanite network of the marine in the following ways:
1. The commander can no longer see or target that marine for anything, nor can the commander see what that marine sees. 2. That marine becomes susceptible to friendly fire. 3. That marine becomes a valid target for marine turrets. In essence, it makes marine equipment think that person's an enemy.
Finally, 4. It does a very slow, very low DoT.. that does not expire. ie, if you don't get it treated, it will kill you eventually -- though eventually may be in half an hour or more -- odds are very likely something else will kill you first. And to be completely accurate gameworld-wise, it's not the parasite that kills you, it's the bacterium that is no longer being effectively held at bay by the marines own nanite netork.
Of course, this implies that there's some way that it can be treated, and not by the commander. Hopefully the commander didn't surround the armory or whatever the treatment centre is with turrets. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1721173:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:10 AM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Aug 7 2009, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was also thinking that if you want to make it good for goading marines, have it interrupt the nanite network of the marine in the following ways:
1. The commander can no longer see or target that marine for anything, nor can the commander see what that marine sees. 2. That marine becomes susceptible to friendly fire. 3. That marine becomes a valid target for marine turrets. In essence, it makes marine equipment think that person's an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the turrets could fire once and kill the parasite. Or make the parasite very visible on the outside of the marine (a brightly colored sac or something). Other marines could shoot it or melee it off, and deal a small amount of damage to the marine. Once removed, the marine is returned to the nanite network.
I agree on a grapple that requires marine timing skill to knock off, similar to the call of duty dogs but the alien can fight back too, so its a slugfest between the skulk and the marine, anyone whos seen the little picture where the skulk is leaping on the marine and the guns falling off his hand, that should be what it looks like. say its a time game alien has to time m1, every time a "BITE" sign comes up he has to do it, happens 3 times, whoever does it first attacks first, in the marines case he has a 0.1 second delay because hes on the bottom, he pulls out his tazer and zaps the alien off and does a portion of damage. If the alien gets him from behind the marine has to time it 0.3 seconds earlier then the skulk to wrestle over and then repeat the tazer operation.
This gives an awesome feeling for striking a marine from behind, adds another skill factor. marine and alien are highly vulnerable during this- teamwork is really badly encouraged with this system.
<!--quoteo(post=1721067:date=Aug 6 2009, 11:58 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 6 2009, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721067"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder if they've decided how the movement physics work with the leap. Even a slightly slower leap is going to take huge effect from air curve and possible speed preservation methods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hope they keep air control in there, it was possible to do some really cool combinations and attacks using this in NS1. You could explain it by giving the skulk some skin flaps or something which extend slightly when you strafe in the air as a way of explaining this ability as something other than a physics bug.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I have some thoughts on this, first the grapple.
I really like the idea of a grapple, pinning a marine down and dealing perhaps medium damage. It adds a disruption effect to the marine squad, and I think there's lots to learn from L4D in this respect. However, it should be time limited in some way (a set time, energy, or allowing the marine to knock the skulk off after some time). It should also give the skulk a disadvantage after the grapple (low energy, recovery time) to make the grapple a decision, not something you always do (even to a lone marine). There should be a risk to it, and you shouldn't always want to use it instead of bite.
The main effect of it should be to discourage lone marines (rambo!) to a certain extent (but not eliminating it), and to disrupt the firing power of a larger group of marines when skulks get close, enforcing the "ranged vs melee" concept of marines and skulks.
Then there is the idea of the parasite. I did like the effect parasite had, but the damage dealt shouldn't be needed. What about a decaying parasite, that would mark the marine for a time (30 seconds?), that would allow the skulk to stalk some few marines there and then, but not allow the team to permanently tag up marines and keep them monitored. The parasite could fade out as the time runs out and as the marine gets further away from the skulk, keeping it further in the local "hunter and hunted" game between marine and skulk.
The marine does not need to know he/she is parasited. There was some certain situations in the original NS where parasited marines would use their knowledge of the parasite to bait skulks. The parasite should be something to a skulks advantage.
I hate the idea of grapple because it contradicts the skulks "assassin/ninja" nature. Gorge with Grapple, now, that'd be reasonable. Or gorge with defensive abilities that allow it to escape better than be hunted down easily like a wounded pig/sheep/dog, that's fair logic also. It would be logical that the Kharaa have evolved in such away that the gorge isn't completely vulnerable, shouldn't be underestimated, and can be a good support class seeing as the resource system now works differently/effectively (More like a medic in TF2, and medic+heavy combo for that matter)
I do however like an improved parasite ability if not my spit gob idea from my previous post
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. The commander can no longer see or target that marine for anything, nor can the commander see what that marine sees. 2. That marine becomes susceptible to friendly fire. 3. That marine becomes a valid target for marine turrets. In essence, it makes marine equipment think that person's an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the nice update. I think a similiar long distance debuff applying attack that annoys marines should be added to the skulk, so he can taunt his prey a bit better.
I really don't understand why people are disappointed with the way that NS2 is revealing itself and how it will work, I really don't care about graphics and stuff like that, it's all about the gameplay that makes a great game, graphics is just things that are nice to have and that's why I would play NS1 if I wanted to play NS1 and I will play NS2, because I want to do so .... there is really no need for a NS1 with graphic updates and there is also no reason to pay for a graphic update, so I'm totally fine with what the devs are doing.
Just one question, is the Skulk going to have only two abilities or how does the ability system work in NS2, because you only mentioned two.
I absolutely despise bitecam. It isn't unique, it isn't creative nor innovative and it isn't fun. Sure, it might be iconic of NS1 but it is an example of NS1's MISTAKES rather than something to be celebrated.
The eyes of the creature should correspond to the view of the player. It breaks immersion it causes you to lose sight of your enemies for a second as you attack.
Devs, please realize that most players like having +movement bound to right click for aliens. Also, no one likes immobilizing attacks, be it the skulk or the marine for the suggested alt fire.
The whole higher hitpoints but slower thing got me thinking. Flayra said he wanted the game to be the ultimate competitive game but that is a step in the wrong direction. Using exaggeration for the purpose of making a point, say very slow skulk takes a majority of an lmg clip to kill, while a very fast skulk takes one lmg bullet to kill. Theoretically a highly skilled player could kill 50 fast skulks in one clip, but anyone can kill one skulk per clip with the slow one. My point is that lowering speed and raising health just lowers the skill gap and potential of the game. The same thing applies if leap speed and distance gets nerfed.
<!--quoteo(post=1721191:date=Aug 7 2009, 08:36 AM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Aug 7 2009, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I absolutely despise bitecam. It isn't unique, it isn't creative nor innovative and it isn't fun. Sure, it might be iconic of NS1 but it is an example of NS1's MISTAKES rather than something to be celebrated.
The eyes of the creature should correspond to the view of the player. It breaks immersion it causes you to lose sight of your enemies for a second as you attack.
Is there really any advantage to bite cam?
I can't think of any.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with everything you said.
I also want to agree with the above post. Reducing the speed of the Skulk is really worrying.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cheezy104+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cheezy104)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Opprobrious+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I absolutely despise bitecam. It isn't unique, it isn't creative nor innovative and it isn't fun. Sure, it might be iconic of NS1 but it is an example of NS1's MISTAKES rather than something to be celebrated.The eyes of the creature should correspond to the view of the player. It breaks immersion it causes you to lose sight of your enemies for a second as you attack.Is there really any advantage to bite cam?I can't think of any.I disagree with everything you said.I also want to agree with the above post. Reducing the speed of the Skulk is really worrying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I disagree with everything you said.
I also want to agree with the above post. Reducing the speed of the Skulk is really worrying. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You made no counter-arguments in favor of your point of view. Nice post.
I do like the ideas here, everyone has their valid points.. whatever the Devs do I think I will like it if it is any of the ones posted here. But I do like the positional based Grapple bite, dragging bodies (for health or resources. Add body dragging for some reason, sounds fun!), Parasite changes (I still don't think a spit/parasite attack made sense for Skulk to begin with, so I lean to liking the grapple)
<!--quoteo(post=1721191:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:36 AM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Aug 7 2009, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I absolutely despise bitecam. It isn't unique, it isn't creative nor innovative and it isn't fun. Sure, it might be iconic of NS1 but it is an example of NS1's MISTAKES rather than something to be celebrated.
The eyes of the creature should correspond to the view of the player. It breaks immersion it causes you to lose sight of your enemies for a second as you attack.
Is there really any advantage to bite cam?
I can't think of any.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My best guess? So there is something more than a bite noise when you attack, you see yourself attacking, which is hard to do for a "bite" attack I imagine. Anyway, yeah, bite cam was a love/hate thing.
I've been lurking these forums for quite a long time now. I've been playing NS for about 4-5 years, but never participated in a tournament. I still am a regular pubber, usually playing alien classes and I'm at my best playing as a skulk.
There has been numerous suggestions for the skulk to have a distracting ability (grapple, vision blur), but I dont think those abilities are very skulkish. A better alternative would be to have the skulk disable perhaps the most important ability in the early game (at least in NS):
HEARING
Sometimes very good marine players show up on pubs and they can make amazing 180 turns and point their gun straight towards an attacking skulk based only on what they are hearing. As a skulk, I usually choose silence for my upgrade because it lets me move much faster unnoticed. It is much more easier to close in on a marine from behind, when they cant hear you. Ambushing is also a lot easier. Even with second hive I would sometimes take silence, because combined with leap, it is an excellent way to jump on a marine waiting behind a corner, even if the marine has MT. They cant hear the leap-sound and might have too slow reflexes to react fast enough. And if I also have focus and lerks have been sporing the area, he might die to the first bite.
So my suggestion is: skulks alt-fire should be a ranged attack, such as the NS parasite, that maybe does a little damage to the marines and impairs their hearing for just a second. All sounds would fade out and back in during 1-2 seconds. The marine would be at least irritated, because the sounds would go in and out, but for the skulk it could help him to get just a little bit closer to be able to leap at the marine. This could be pretty overpowered, if the leap in NS2 is huge, but if it's just a small pounce, impairing the marine's hearing could be crucial to the success of the attack. The skulks are slower in NS2 so giving them an ability to close in on a marine is important. It would be a warning sign for the marines, but if there are multiple skulks using the ability from different directions, the marines would be confused and turning their backs to some skulks. And if there is a silence upgrade, you just shouldn't use it, the marines aren't expecting you anyway.
For the marine player this could be very annoying though, if their sounds would fade in and out all the time, but most importantly I think this ability suits the skulk. Skulks aren't grunts who just charge blindly at opponents. They are sneaky little devils, who patiently and silently wait in little nooks and crannies until a marine walks past.
<!--quoteo(post=1721194:date=Aug 7 2009, 08:48 AM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Aug 7 2009, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721194"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree with everything you said.
I also want to agree with the above post. Reducing the speed of the Skulk is really worrying. You made no counter-arguments in favor of your point of view. Nice post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're saying it isn't unique and creative Name me one game that has the cam from inside an aliens mouth.
Also, if it isn't going to be the mouth, then wat? the claws? That would just be stupid, the Skulk's weapon is their mouth, not being able to see the mouth would make it very odd.
Agree with HEARING. Half my skills come from what I hear, left right - stereo ftw.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there really any advantage to bite cam? I can't think of any.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a creative or visual person are you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My best guess? So there is something more than a bite noise when you attack, you see yourself attacking, which is hard to do for a "bite" attack I imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It really gave you a "I am right there, I am doing this, this is going to connect and do damage" feeling. A kinetic, visceral, first person attack feeling. If you've ever played Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, then you'd definately know this feeling. It's rather immersive and puts you on "the front line" of melee attacks. You don't get quite the same level of immersion in any other view.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name me one game that has the cam from inside an aliens mouth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens vs Predator 1 - Alien's Bite Attack Aliens vs Predator 2 - Alien's Bite Attack Aliens vs Predator 3 - Alien's Bite Attack - TBD Natural Selection - Skulk's Bite Attack Turok 64 - From the Raptors mouth
Some of the recent Zombie games/mods have melee attacks with fists, but you could argue some bite too.
<!--quoteo(post=1721199:date=Aug 7 2009, 09:08 AM:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (resresres @ Aug 7 2009, 09:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It really gave you a "I am right there, I am doing this, this is going to connect and do damage" feeling. A kinetic, visceral, first person attack feeling. If you've ever played Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, then you'd definately know this feeling. It's rather immersive and puts you on "the front line" of melee attacks. You don't get quite the same level of immersion in any other view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oblivion? Immersive combat? uuh, oblivion combat is ######. Play Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.
Comments
Couldn't agree more.
You, the devs, bring up some controversial stuff like the taser replacing pistol and knife and removing HA, for the sake of having less work in the art sector and then you plan on adding alt-fire to the alien weapons...for the sake of having another fancy line in the game's feature list?
The aliens already have like 4? weapons (+movement ability?), I think that's enough. If you really look for more workload for your art-team, bring back the knife and pistol :p
I must agree with above, You seem to be discarding parts of NS1 that were key features. Isn't the idea to improve on the original instead of heading in a different direction. Whilst I don't necessarily want NS1 repeated, I do think that you will be ruining the feel of NS by removing all the little things.
I just hope that this new skulk hasn't lost the speed aspect that NS1 had, because it would be a shame
I'm thinking of a Parasite that does a different effect depending on where you hit the marine
If you shoot the <b>stomach</b>, the marine becomes sligthly damaged like the NS1 parasite
If you shoot the <b>arms</b>, the marine's aim would become slightly impaired(thus making it a little harder to aim)
If you shoot the <b>legs</b>, the marine will be unable to jump OR walk/run a little slower for a short time
If you shoot the <b>head</b>, the marine would get a "flashbang" sort of effect (perhaps make some parts of the screen infestion-like(something like an onos stomach). This effect would fade away after no more than 1 second and maybe make the marine get a SLIGHTLY dizzy and unclear vision for a very small time after the parasite. This would be great for confusing the enemy, ambushing and also for retreating. This would not be too imbalanced, since it requires skill to aim to the head(and the effect doesn't last very long anyway). It'd also encourage teamwork. Imagine a skulk parasiting the head of a marine from afar while another skulk moves in for the kill. Marines would be more likely to stay in groups.
Of course, it might even be too hard to aim at the head to prove useful, but it's an interesting feature.
To balance, parasite has a small cooldown. (1 second or so)
Making the cooldown too long would make the ability useless if the player misses.
I know "disabling abilities" are usually frowned upon but I think this would be very interesting, and the effects aren't that major and doesn't last very long. This would be interesting, encourage teamwork and require skill.
<b>Slash:</b> Close range BUT it will turn the marine 180 degrees around so skulks can bite his back and this messes marines aim alot but will not disable him.
explanation: It's like very strong fist blow in boxing on your cheek which will send you drifting towards floor.
Yes, even I think this is somehow silly. Imagine 2 skulks slashing one marine 180 degrees again and again and again and again... It would be like russian rulette but NS2 style.
It would be used <i>every frikkin' time</i>. I always found that the disabling abilities in Left 4 Dead were on the verge of being very, very annoying. Their only saving graces was that predictable AI were using them, the entire team was alerted to the event of being disabled, it was a heavy team-focused game, and it was a campaign game.
Give disabling powers to actual players; ones that can't be countered by those being disabled, and that is complete and utter foolishness. It is terrible.
Bite alternative fire should be Leap.
Or perhaps, instead of set-in-stone alt-fire abilities for aliens, one should be able to map all the different abilities to different buttons on the keyboard, or to different alt-fires of primary abilities. Thus, some players would have parasite or grapple paired with bite, and others would have leap paired with bite. You might even want to switch to xenocide paired with leap.
It would incredibly easy to do this, has already been implemented (to an extent), and would make everyone happy. Please give the aliens options to customize their alt-fires.
I'm sure there'll be a mod that's exactly what you're looking for eventually. But I kinda don't wanna play NS1, I wanna play NS2.
Love that.
Anyway, Alt Bite: Acid Spit
A Damage over time that disintegrates armour and helps take out structures.
Dynamics:
While bite does X dmg to a structure, you put a DOT Acid Spit on the same structure that does initial damage of 10pts, and then 2 pts every 2 seconds, renews this effect timer with everybite.
(sort of like the paladin from World of Warcraft, you put a seal on a target then renew the timer with each strike).
And if you spit at marines, 10pts initial damage, then 2d per 2s again, renewed by bite also, but range is reduced over distance. (Total 20 dmg pts if bite doesn't renew the effect).
Maybe the shot will arc with gravity? (Like medic's needle gun upgrade, TF2)
I'm sure THAT would bait marines into doing something stupid.
"Oh no my new armor! You'll paaaay for that!" *CHARGE*
Heavy armor would reduce the effect by 50%
Upgrades to armor (tech tree) would also decrease this effect. (+25% per level of tech)
Not much art work involved, a greeny yellow globby spit thing. Makes a sizzle sound on contact. Or metal buckling noises.
Could be used to deform the environment?
Stemming from this idea, For the Gorge:
I think Bile's alt could be a sticky effect, slows you down for a few sec 3-5sec, helps gorge get away, and slow down the 'rine for other Kharaa.
Would also let those noobs who do a Bile Attack on Rines actually do some good. Instead of making said noob gorge's team facepalm.
Lerk could have a bombing alt with similar properties. Fly over, bomb structures causing them dmg, temp. interrupts or sticky/slow effect on rines.
a single marine CAN melee off a grappling skulk, but his effectiveness in doing so should be related to where the skulk bit him. A leg grapple should be easy to shoot/melee off, but on the back should take several melees for the marine to shake off the grappler, while the skulk deals damage the whole time. If the skulk manages to grapple from behind it should have a large advantage during that engagement, but if it gets a bad grapple (shaken off right away) it would have been better off with bite
and of course the grappled marine could be slowed, and other marines can shoot the skulk off etc.
No ability should completely disable a player on the other team - a grapple that does this is a bad way to handle things. The reason this works in L4D is that it is a CO-OP game where all your teammates are expected to be right with you at all times; unless you're already about to lose you should always have a counter nearby, even if you can't counter the attack yourself.
As for parasite variants, I think para as it was in NS1 suited the scout role of the skulk very well, but it isn't necessary in NS2 as the scouting is done by the commander. Low damage pinging ability is ok I guess, but there are better things out there. para replacement shouldn't impair vision or disable the marine though, I think it would be better to save that kind of attack for the gorge - it needs it more for self defense
It would be used <i>every frikkin' time</i>. I always found that the disabling abilities in Left 4 Dead were on the verge of being very, very annoying. Their only saving graces was that predictable AI were using them, the entire team was alerted to the event of being disabled, it was a heavy team-focused game, and it was a campaign game.
Give disabling powers to actual players; ones that can't be countered by those being disabled, and that is complete and utter foolishness. It is terrible.
Bite alternative fire should be Leap.
Or perhaps, instead of set-in-stone alt-fire abilities for aliens, one should be able to map all the different abilities to different buttons on the keyboard, or to different alt-fires of primary abilities. Thus, some players would have parasite or grapple paired with bite, and others would have leap paired with bite. You might even want to switch to xenocide paired with leap.
It would incredibly easy to do this, has already been implemented (to an extent), and would make everyone happy. Please give the aliens options to customize their alt-fires.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seconded.
I was also thinking that if you want to make it good for goading marines, have it interrupt the nanite network of the marine in the following ways:
1. The commander can no longer see or target that marine for anything, nor can the commander see what that marine sees.
2. That marine becomes susceptible to friendly fire.
3. That marine becomes a valid target for marine turrets.
In essence, it makes marine equipment think that person's an enemy.
Finally, 4. It does a very slow, very low DoT.. that does not expire. ie, if you don't get it treated, it will kill you eventually -- though eventually may be in half an hour or more -- odds are very likely something else will kill you first. And to be completely accurate gameworld-wise, it's not the parasite that kills you, it's the bacterium that is no longer being effectively held at bay by the marines own nanite netork.
Of course, this implies that there's some way that it can be treated, and not by the commander. Hopefully the commander didn't surround the armory or whatever the treatment centre is with turrets. :)
1. The commander can no longer see or target that marine for anything, nor can the commander see what that marine sees.
2. That marine becomes susceptible to friendly fire.
3. That marine becomes a valid target for marine turrets.
In essence, it makes marine equipment think that person's an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the turrets could fire once and kill the parasite. Or make the parasite very visible on the outside of the marine (a brightly colored sac or something). Other marines could shoot it or melee it off, and deal a small amount of damage to the marine. Once removed, the marine is returned to the nanite network.
This gives an awesome feeling for striking a marine from behind, adds another skill factor. marine and alien are highly vulnerable during this- teamwork is really badly encouraged with this system.
I really hope they keep air control in there, it was possible to do some really cool combinations and attacks using this in NS1. You could explain it by giving the skulk some skin flaps or something which extend slightly when you strafe in the air as a way of explaining this ability as something other than a physics bug.
I really like the idea of a grapple, pinning a marine down and dealing perhaps medium damage. It adds a disruption effect to the marine squad, and I think there's lots to learn from L4D in this respect. However, it should be time limited in some way (a set time, energy, or allowing the marine to knock the skulk off after some time). It should also give the skulk a disadvantage after the grapple (low energy, recovery time) to make the grapple a decision, not something you always do (even to a lone marine). There should be a risk to it, and you shouldn't always want to use it instead of bite.
The main effect of it should be to discourage lone marines (rambo!) to a certain extent (but not eliminating it), and to disrupt the firing power of a larger group of marines when skulks get close, enforcing the "ranged vs melee" concept of marines and skulks.
Then there is the idea of the parasite. I did like the effect parasite had, but the damage dealt shouldn't be needed. What about a decaying parasite, that would mark the marine for a time (30 seconds?), that would allow the skulk to stalk some few marines there and then, but not allow the team to permanently tag up marines and keep them monitored. The parasite could fade out as the time runs out and as the marine gets further away from the skulk, keeping it further in the local "hunter and hunted" game between marine and skulk.
The marine does not need to know he/she is parasited. There was some certain situations in the original NS where parasited marines would use their knowledge of the parasite to bait skulks. The parasite should be something to a skulks advantage.
Gorge with Grapple, now, that'd be reasonable. Or gorge with defensive abilities that allow it to escape better than be hunted down easily like a wounded pig/sheep/dog, that's fair logic also. It would be logical that the Kharaa have evolved in such away that the gorge isn't completely vulnerable, shouldn't be underestimated, and can be a good support class seeing as the resource system now works differently/effectively (More like a medic in TF2, and medic+heavy combo for that matter)
I do however like an improved parasite ability if not my spit gob idea from my previous post
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. The commander can no longer see or target that marine for anything, nor can the commander see what that marine sees.
2. That marine becomes susceptible to friendly fire.
3. That marine becomes a valid target for marine turrets.
In essence, it makes marine equipment think that person's an enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't understand why people are disappointed with the way that NS2 is revealing itself and how it will work, I really don't care about graphics and stuff like that, it's all about the gameplay that makes a great game, graphics is just things that are nice to have and that's why I would play NS1 if I wanted to play NS1 and I will play NS2, because I want to do so .... there is really no need for a NS1 with graphic updates and there is also no reason to pay for a graphic update, so I'm totally fine with what the devs are doing.
Just one question, is the Skulk going to have only two abilities or how does the ability system work in NS2, because you only mentioned two.
Keep the good work!
The eyes of the creature should correspond to the view of the player. It breaks immersion it causes you to lose sight of your enemies for a second as you attack.
Is there really any advantage to bite cam?
I can't think of any.
The whole higher hitpoints but slower thing got me thinking. Flayra said he wanted the game to be the ultimate competitive game but that is a step in the wrong direction. Using exaggeration for the purpose of making a point, say very slow skulk takes a majority of an lmg clip to kill, while a very fast skulk takes one lmg bullet to kill. Theoretically a highly skilled player could kill 50 fast skulks in one clip, but anyone can kill one skulk per clip with the slow one. My point is that lowering speed and raising health just lowers the skill gap and potential of the game. The same thing applies if leap speed and distance gets nerfed.
The eyes of the creature should correspond to the view of the player. It breaks immersion it causes you to lose sight of your enemies for a second as you attack.
Is there really any advantage to bite cam?
I can't think of any.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with everything you said.
I also want to agree with the above post. Reducing the speed of the Skulk is really worrying.
I also want to agree with the above post. Reducing the speed of the Skulk is really worrying. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You made no counter-arguments in favor of your point of view. Nice post.
<!--quoteo(post=1721191:date=Aug 7 2009, 03:36 AM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Aug 7 2009, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I absolutely despise bitecam. It isn't unique, it isn't creative nor innovative and it isn't fun. Sure, it might be iconic of NS1 but it is an example of NS1's MISTAKES rather than something to be celebrated.
The eyes of the creature should correspond to the view of the player. It breaks immersion it causes you to lose sight of your enemies for a second as you attack.
Is there really any advantage to bite cam?
I can't think of any.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My best guess? So there is something more than a bite noise when you attack, you see yourself attacking, which is hard to do for a "bite" attack I imagine. Anyway, yeah, bite cam was a love/hate thing.
There has been numerous suggestions for the skulk to have a distracting ability (grapple, vision blur), but I dont think those abilities are very skulkish. A better alternative would be to have the skulk disable perhaps the most important ability in the early game (at least in NS):
HEARING
Sometimes very good marine players show up on pubs and they can make amazing 180 turns and point their gun straight towards an attacking skulk based only on what they are hearing. As a skulk, I usually choose silence for my upgrade because it lets me move much faster unnoticed. It is much more easier to close in on a marine from behind, when they cant hear you. Ambushing is also a lot easier. Even with second hive I would sometimes take silence, because combined with leap, it is an excellent way to jump on a marine waiting behind a corner, even if the marine has MT. They cant hear the leap-sound and might have too slow reflexes to react fast enough. And if I also have focus and lerks have been sporing the area, he might die to the first bite.
So my suggestion is: skulks alt-fire should be a ranged attack, such as the NS parasite, that maybe does a little damage to the marines and impairs their hearing for just a second. All sounds would fade out and back in during 1-2 seconds. The marine would be at least irritated, because the sounds would go in and out, but for the skulk it could help him to get just a little bit closer to be able to leap at the marine. This could be pretty overpowered, if the leap in NS2 is huge, but if it's just a small pounce, impairing the marine's hearing could be crucial to the success of the attack. The skulks are slower in NS2 so giving them an ability to close in on a marine is important. It would be a warning sign for the marines, but if there are multiple skulks using the ability from different directions, the marines would be confused and turning their backs to some skulks. And if there is a silence upgrade, you just shouldn't use it, the marines aren't expecting you anyway.
For the marine player this could be very annoying though, if their sounds would fade in and out all the time, but most importantly I think this ability suits the skulk. Skulks aren't grunts who just charge blindly at opponents. They are sneaky little devils, who patiently and silently wait in little nooks and crannies until a marine walks past.
I also want to agree with the above post. Reducing the speed of the Skulk is really worrying. You made no counter-arguments in favor of your point of view. Nice post.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're saying it isn't unique and creative
Name me one game that has the cam from inside an aliens mouth.
Also, if it isn't going to be the mouth, then wat? the claws? That would just be stupid, the Skulk's weapon is their mouth, not being able to see the mouth would make it very odd.
Weapon slot 1
Mouse 1 - Bite
Mouse 2 - ALT attack (be it the licking or some other kind of charge up sneak/concentration, or a parasite replacement)
Weapon slot 2
Mouse 1 - grapple / hold attack
Mouse 2 - hold for 3rd person camera (as a higher sense ability)
Space bar (Jump button) - leap
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there really any advantage to bite cam?
I can't think of any.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a creative or visual person are you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My best guess? So there is something more than a bite noise when you attack, you see yourself attacking, which is hard to do for a "bite" attack I imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really gave you a "I am right there, I am doing this, this is going to connect and do damage" feeling.
A kinetic, visceral, first person attack feeling.
If you've ever played Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, then you'd definately know this feeling. It's rather immersive and puts you on "the front line" of melee attacks.
You don't get quite the same level of immersion in any other view.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Name me one game that has the cam from inside an aliens mouth.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens vs Predator 1 - Alien's Bite Attack
Aliens vs Predator 2 - Alien's Bite Attack
Aliens vs Predator 3 - Alien's Bite Attack - TBD
Natural Selection - Skulk's Bite Attack
Turok 64 - From the Raptors mouth
Some of the recent Zombie games/mods have melee attacks with fists, but you could argue some bite too.
A kinetic, visceral, first person attack feeling.
If you've ever played Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, then you'd definately know this feeling. It's rather immersive and puts you on "the front line" of melee attacks.
You don't get quite the same level of immersion in any other view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oblivion? Immersive combat?
uuh, oblivion combat is ######. Play Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.
People who defend bitecam are the type who become infatuated with every detail of something that they like.
They are unable to tease out minor problems, that if corrected would VASTLY improve the game.
I'm sure this guy would also argue in favor of auto-pickup of weapons that is ALWAYS on.