slayer20Killed a man once.Join Date: 2007-12-13Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I didn't read the thread, but if this has already been suggested by someone, then +1 for them.
The alternative for the Skulk should be a Swipe attack. It seems like the obvious thing to do. They have these sharp boney arms and all they use is their mouth? I think a nice impaling attack would be a great alternate fire for the Skulk.
<i><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FLAYRA -- We're still not sure what his alt-fire for Bite is going to be. We've talked a lot about a grapple type of attack where he could clench down on a marine and do damage to him over time, but that seemed too annoying from the marine's perspective (and how would he shoot the skulk off of him?). Please give us some suggestions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--></i>
- A type of root/slow effect could be possible, but no doubt would require extensive playtesting. I'm not sure if the marines will be able to see their own model (ie - look down see your torso/legs) If so, that "grab" effect could be interesting, especially if the skulk would correctly latch onto the marine positionally, depending at what angle he hit him from (would add strategic value). 'Tis an idea, but maybe not worth the time/effort to implement it correctly ? - Another thought on that depends on if marines will get a "melee bash" ability, to knock the skulk off or back. - What are people's thought on having a (maybe Hive_2 ?) ability where the leap/pounce subdues a marine and does damage over time to him (think the Hunter leap in Left4Dead)
- Since parasite is gone (and no word on xeno), my hope would be for an additional attack, rather than just bite. My suggestion would be for a close-range DoT attack, perhaps stabs the marines with his claw(s) and leaves him "bleeding" pure hp (not armor) for X seconds. This could even possibly be used as a way for the lowerlife form to do dmg to a heavy armor since the DoT would go straight to HP, negating the armor. - This would grant the skulk a whole new tactic of attacking prey, with potential "hit and runs" coupled with Leap being available right away. - It also could be used as a last ditch attack when you are biting a marine's legs, and you know you are going to die, to try and leave him with low hp and a DoT after you die, which may give an chance to kill him if the marines doesn't receive a medpac right away.
- I wholeheartedly agree with adding Leap as a Hive_1 ability, even if it is a shorter distance.
- If there is no additional attack given, than Leap/Pounce would be a good idea as the alt-fire for bite. It will become such an important ability, you want it to be easily accessible to new players without having to rebind a bunch of keys. If nothing else, then definitely have Leap / Blink have a similar function that was added later on in NS1 (3.0 ?) where the Leap / Blink would immediately revert back to your Bite / Swipe ability when let go.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited August 2009
The grapple attack makes perfect sense as a counter to the LMG butt/push - if a skulk can close the distance, dodge bullets, and get past the lmg hit/push and also jump onto a marines back - then the skulk should have the reward of being able to hold onto the marine and get the kill. I guess the marine always has an option of throwing a grenade at his own feet and take the best out of bad bunch of choices and barely survive :)
It really would just encourage team work for marines
Normal bite is for quick and high damage Grab / hold bite (probably would call it tear) is for low damage, but high damage over a long time.
love the idea of a grapple/hanging on style attack where the skulk clamps on with the claws, and uses the teeth to tear and tear away - this would be more effective against structures and heavy armour - perhaps it would be a special ability which focus more on destroying armor, and leaving the health bar exposed to other attacks? (kind of like the taser i guess!)
for alt fire - perhaps some kind of stealth/concentration ability - where the skulks is completely silent, and marines are somehow highlighted - you would hold down the alt fire, to charge it up, it lasts for say 5-10 seconds - kinds of like when snipers hold their breath. but then when released it makes a loudish snarl or breathing sound - so you can use it to enhance your stealth but if you waste your opportunity it could give your location away - and also freak the hell out of marines!
Whatever the alt-attack for the skulk is, I hope it's linked to a hive requirement. Having something like "slow the marines down" or "apply a damage over time effect" could really be difficult to balance early on.
To be honest, just creating something for this alt-fire purpose would feel like you're forcing something into the skulk that shouldn't be. I agree with leap being the alt-fire for bite. Having to switch weapons to use leap is so half-life 1.
i particularly enjoyed the transition from walking to running (about 20sec in the vid)
i got a strong sense of a wild dog or 'big' cat from the shoulder movement. I almost moved forward in my chair so strong was the feeling of power in the upper section of the torso. very very well done to the art dept, once again, proving that UW is among the ranks of the BIG studios when it comes to raw talent and a commitment to realising a vision.
As far as the parasite ability is concerned, i'd just like to add, and i'm sure i'm not alone here, that i have very fond memories of the rare and delighting times that i managed to kill a marine with the parasite ability. It would be a shame to see this type of enjoyment removed.
On a more Personal note, as someone who aspires to enter the game industry, i must say, Unkown Worlds (specifically Charlie, Cory and Andrew) are a HUGE inspiration for me and a constant source encouragement. Well done guys, i wish you all nothing but success and i'm sure when NS2 finally ships, your work will speak for itself, and put the studio in the spotlight for some time to come :D
"The in-game vents look almost this good and we can't wait to show them to you! We hope you enjoyed this look at the Skulk and can't wait to show you the rest!"
Very cool update, really liking how the Kharaa have evolved so far in NS2. I'm for the grappling secondary, it sounds interesting and it opens up a lot of teamplay aspects. The big problem IS how the Marine would get the skulk off. It seems a little too harsh to have to completely rely on a teammate to get rid of the thing, even though I encourage teamplay-orientated mechanics.
I was just struck by another Left 4 Dead-esque type of attack, although it doesn't seem very likely. Something like the Smoker's tongue which could pull Marines and even hang them from ceilings. But they'd still be able to look around and shoot at the skulk.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's a video showing him in action:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THE SKULK'S GENDER IS -> MALE !!!!
Ive been waiting about 7 years for this information! Thank you!
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1721055:date=Aug 7 2009, 09:41 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Aug 7 2009, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually fully support the 'grapple' attack, for a number of reasons.
First and foremost, this provides a much needed incentive to keep marines operating in groups. One of the biggest problems in the early version was that there was no disincentive to marines to prevent them from going 'rambo' on their own. How do you get a 'grapple' skulk off you? YOU don't. Your TEAMMATEe that is standing beside you can quickly and easily shoot it off you. No muss, no fuss. This would be a deadly attack for people running solo, but would be a useless attack for marines in a group. If you are 'grappled' on to a marine you are vulnerable, and an easy target.
Second, it would give aliens a second form of 'group' attack. At present, a group attack as skulks basically relies on skulks rushing in and hoping that one or two survive long enough to do damage. What if a bunch of skulks instead did a 'grapple' rush? The difference here is that when you grapple on a marine's back, that marine needs to turn his back to the other marines to get them to shoot it off. What if all of the skulks hit from behind and grappled? The natural instinct is to turn TOWARDS your fellow marines, but if they all do that, then no one will have a shot at the skulks. So the chaos could give way to a new form of skulk rush.
Lastly, and most importantly, I would pay good money to see a marine run across a hallway (coming from somewhere out of line of sight) screaming "GET THEM OFF ME!!!" while seeing 3 or 4 skulks attached to his body as he flails about. :D
Let's remember here, if a skulk is close enough and in the proper position to land a grapple, then he would just as easily be able to land a bite. We're not talking a grapple from range, this is a melee attack. So if a skulk lands a grapple, the damage should be equal to what a bite would be, over 5 seconds. (arbitrary numbers for sake of discussion) All this does is deliver the bite in a different way. To a solo marine, this is a huge risk since he can't kill the skulk on him. To a group of marines it is a significantly reduced threat.
As for a counter in cases with FF on, this would depend on whether marines are being given a 'melee' swing. If they are not, then marines just have to be that much more accurate. However, I do think grapple would be a great addition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well said :)
If it creates problems with people turning about like crazy, you could also do what the Left 4 Dead hunter does, and this would pin down a marine - but of course exposing the skulk. But it would look way cooler with a skulk "backpack" and the marine stumbling, screaming, and shooting wildly :)
Really like the look of the Skulk. When it comes to his alt-fire I to would miss the secondary purpose of Parasite. Xenocide would also be missed by me, maybe you didn't mention the higher abilities. Several good ideas from people here. I don't mind stuff that distorts the Marine and I always play as a Marine.
Like the idea of grapple though. Maybe if it lasted only for about 6 seconds at the time, give very little damage after the actual biting down on the marine, with the purpose of holding on to the marine until your mates come around. I can't see it working like when a dog drags something away. The only way to get him off, would as some people say, is to get another marine to shoot him of or if you could slap him over the head with your weapon a couple of times. But I'm not sure if that would work if you have the Skulk on your back. Would be funny if there are equal numbers of Skulks and Marines in a hallway, each marine with a Skulk on his back, not much to do then.
Kinda found the idea of eating a bit of flesh from a fallen Marine as a health boost interesting too. Maybe it's something else then a health boost, some kind of focus boost where you get a bit more speed for a short amount of time, a bit more bite damage or maybe an infectious bite that deals damage over time.
Maybe not an alt-fire but would be fun to see one alien have the ability to "charge up" and spit out some kind of acid goo. Maybe as a mine, or something that deteriorate structures over time. Just a thought.
Keep up the great work guys! Personally I'm looking the most forward to seeing Heavy Armor! Boom!
+1 vote for leap as bite's alt-fire. Having all attacks at your fingertips instead of having to hunt through menus makes playing a melee class way more fun / effective.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited August 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1721081:date=Aug 7 2009, 10:43 AM:name=perfectheat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (perfectheat @ Aug 7 2009, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would be funny if there are equal numbers of Skulks and Marines in a hallway, each marine with a Skulk on his back, not much to do then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL - shoot mine first, shoot mine first! that would be hilarious and awesome :D as the marines try to shoot skulks off their team mates backs, as they themselves are being torn apart from the back hah
My first idea, which I personally like best, is something akin to the sandvich from TF2 - The skulk licks itself.
By licking itself, it heals maybe 1/4-1/3 of its full health at a time, or maybe even just press and hold alt fire to continuously heal, depending on whether or not you want to player to be able to interrupt the licking to attack (I'm for slow continuous heal).
During that time it is not moving, and the player is looking at the floor or a wound. It would make a whimper/slurping sound, so marines in the area would know there was a wounded skulk nearby.
That's the way most animals handle wounds, anyways. They probably don't heal with a magic spray or by flailing their arms about.
I think grapple would be a fun thing to watch, but I think it would be a fine line between trying to deal enough damage that the marine doesn't just walk to another marine for help, and not dealing so much damage that the marine dies instantly. One thing I am curious about for this though, which I haven't seen addressed anywhere, is will NS2 have location-specific damage? Will one bite to the head kill a marine? If so, then maybe that's the key to balancing... grappling the head kills quick or whatever.
I'm with others who have said that a disabling or impairing attack is too much. I mean, we're talking about alt fire for the base attack of the starting alien class. It seems that, to make it balanced, it would have to be so ineffective as to be useless.
Anyways, those are my thoughts. I hope to see the wound licking in action! :D:D:D:D
Hmm it wasn't really clear to me due to the number of abilities (onos also had three right?) but do skulks have wall-running as an ability, or is it just natural like in NS1?
Love it :D Maybe some kind of bloodlust thingy? Like if you kill a marine the skulk gets twice the damage and speed for a few seconds. This way they wont just be killed when there are alot of marines pushing one way, or when meeting HA's. And it gives a higher slaughter potential for those who wants to master the skulk. And(/or) gain a temporarily life boost, maybe only for the ones it kills after the first one (that triggers the bloodlust abillity) id rather have lifesteal abillity than eating corpse abillity :p keep parasite!!!!!!^^ (Btw i think parasite suits lerk better than skulk :o And people loved spikes, atleast me^^, so this might be nice:))
I also hope you dont make the skulk slow (or any other lifeform), cause... thats boring :P I love the freedom of the speed in ns1 (when lerk got slower i was really sad :'( (for example bunnyjumping is fun :>)
<!--quoteo(post=1721044:date=Aug 6 2009, 11:23 PM:name=DeKay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DeKay @ Aug 6 2009, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about some kind of roundhouse-kick-attack as secondary? :D Some attack where the skulk moves in a circle very fast and deals damage to all marines/buildings around him. You could only do it once every minute so people wouldnt turn around in circles all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please dont make anything like that.... Klick one button to make 10 moves! IF you are to do something you should do it out of skill.
SentrySteve: i think its a great way to envolve the players and to see what they like. Also to keep ns2 in everyones heads so they buy it / tell friends. (Evil masterplan you guys got going there :P)
Edit: Just a litte while after I posted this new posts had come, so I read them and now I got ideas >:P I read TheLord's idea and I like it. If you are going to remove parasite, then a attack that leaves a scent/blood trail could be a good substitute :) and as oNEO wrote: "so I thought what about a mild stun version which effects the marines camera view. If skulks use teamwork they can stun individual marines in groups and give themselves an advantage instead of just running in seperately" I love teamwork, and its very much why i like NS. The Skulk specially is a lifeform needs that teamwork. unlike the fade. AND...JAmazon's idea of grapple. I see potential in this, for teamwork; if you use silence, for example, you can grapple down the marine walking last without making alot of CHMOP CHOMP RATATATATA noises. To limit the grapple, i think its prefect for it to use up adrenaline, that way using celerity/silence/adrenaline will affect the grapple. Silence - as i said before. Adrenaline - longer grapple time. Celerity - well you dont die trying :) This could also encurage Marine teamwork, if a lone HA rushes off with his new hmg to farm skulk-kills, he could just get pinned down and killed. or maybe you just add grapple as a "chamber" upgrade for the skulk, so it can pick either celerity,silence,adrenaline or grapple.... but wait... then my idea with chamber-upgs affecting it fails, so nvm.
I like the idea of regaining health of eating corpses but NS might end up a hybrid of Zombie and Aliens, but i wouldnt mind if its balanced.
I also thought about an ability like the L4D pouce idea but that would be overpowering the skulk (unless it had a low success rate as in it had to be a headshot) so I thought what about a mild stun version which effects the marines camera view, also if the skulk grabs on make the marine have to swing his camera(mouse) around or shake the skulk off
-One main question is when the marines get hit does it effect their view? so if they get attacked from the side their viewing camera slants to the left to give a more interactive feel. The faster the skulk hits the marine the more his viewing camera shakes/stunned.
If skulks use teamwork they can stun individual marines in groups and give themselves an advantage instead of just running in seperately.
I'm sure all these ideas are from other games but a large percentage of devs use other games for inspiration.
Assuming all the aliens have a movement ability (leap, blink, flap & .....) I think mouse 2 would be suited to the plus movement button. Some instant abilities, such as roar acid rocket, could be bound to a key which instantly triggers that ability rather than switching to that weapon and using mouse 1.
Personally I'd like to see several keyboard play styles implemented I don't know how much effort that would take tho.
Alright, I know its bad for community to spout off ideas to the devs, as was pointed out in twp previous posts, but I just cant help myself! :P
- Grapple: I love the idea of a hold kind of attack for a skulk. I imagine it kind of like a jaw lock on the marines leg that slows him down until the skulk releases (lets go of the mouse button) or is killed. The way I imagine the mechanics of it going are, the skulk initializes the grapple by running up to the marine and pressing( and holding) the fire key. This does about the same initial damage (mabe less) as a regular bite, but now is latched on and the marine is now at 50% speed or something. This opens up opportunities for fellow skulks to come in and easily subdue the prey. Can be used to take out straggling marines, break apart fast moving rushes, any number of tactical and team based uses. To get out of the grapple, all the marine has to do is look down and kill the skulk or one of his friends helps (simple enough, but this a confusion tactic so in general the marine will be too frantic to do so). The draw back to the skulk using this grapple attack could be a 1 second lock jaw scenario where he cant release the marine for about a second. Thus a badly timed grapple could spell doom for the skulk.
- Parasite: Dont think this should be poopooed just yet. Recall that in NS1 the comm can only see aliens based on LOS of his marines (or scan). If it works similar to that for the alien comm in NS2 mabe you can make it so that parasited marines are visible to alien comm even out of LOS...OR and even more creative idea would be to make it so that alien comm can actually see LOS of the parasited marine! :O That would truly turn a parasited marine into a strategic liability.
I completely know that the chances of these ideas being even considered is null, but I wouldnt be able to sleep unless I at least tried.
<!--quoteo(post=1721093:date=Aug 6 2009, 08:03 PM:name=-Klaus-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Klaus- @ Aug 6 2009, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Assuming all the aliens have a movement ability (leap, blink, flap & .....) I think mouse 2 would be suited to the plus movement button. Some instant abilities, such as roar acid rocket, could be bound to a key which instantly triggers that ability rather than switching to that weapon and using mouse 1.
Personally I'd like to see several keyboard play styles implemented I don't know how much effort that would take tho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, looks like a couple people beat me to it. I was gonna say, Leap sounds like a great alt fire for the bite. It saves the troubles of hitting "last weapon" in midair and players wouldn't have to come up with scripts for it either. As for Fade, I'm not sure if Blink should be the alt of the main melee, or if Metabolize (if still implemented) should be. (or have Blink/Metabolize on M1/M2?)
I hate the skulk's lower jaw. No front teeth? How the heck does he bite with the front of his mouth, especially hard enough to crack nanoplate armor??? How does he tear flesh without gnawing on a leg with the side of his mouth? Wouldn't multiple hinges reduce the amount of force he can clamp down with, and/or make his jaw more fragile?
Everything else looks good, though. I'll miss the old skulk, but this one could still be cool.
On the note of gameplay - will skulks walking on walls and ceilings have their cameras inverted, or will the camera always remain "right-side up" as in NS1?
edit: Yay for still having the POV inside his mouth, though. That was one thing about NS1 that stood out the moment you spawned as an alien, and even more-so the first time you clicked and actually bit. It was really cool and I'm glad to see it stay.
So will Leap be its own slot, a +movement key or both? I certainly don't want to go back to switching back and forth.
I don't like the idea of a L4D-style pounce. NS just isn't the same sort of game, fights shouldn't be so black-and-white as being dead if you're alone and unhurt if a buddy is there. I do like the idea of forced teamwork and ambush perks though. Maybe Bite's alt fire should be a chargeable attack that slows you down while charging, so that you have to be set up in an ambush spot to use it? Idea off the top of my head - after a couple seconds of charging, the skulk can spit acid on a single marine to weaken them for the ambush somehow, sort of like the Parasite -> Bite combo. Maybe it makes them take extra damage, or makes them flinch so they can't shoot for a second?
I'm loving the look of the Skulk. the concept art of the skulk in the vent is very very nice.
A few people have mentioned eating, or dragging of marines. I don't like the idea of eating marines, however, I can imagine skulks dragging the dead bodies of marines about. one idea is that bodies of dead marines could be collected for extra res when they are dragged to nearby resource towers The bodies can only be dragged slowly (but possibly faster if more skulks help) , so the skulk player risks being an easy target for marines. so it kind of balances out.
I for one would love doing this if I was playing as a skulk, and it also promotes teamwork with the skulks. and as a marine, it would be very spooky seeing a group of skulks dragging a body around a corner or possible up inside a vent, lol. This action will probably be seen most at the beginning of a match when the opposing teams are trying to collect as much res as possible to advance their team.
I'm up for having the alt fire button as the leap, as having to switch from bite to leap is a bit strange, as they are not weapons, but are actions. but I am also very partial to the idea of having a grapple. perhaps as an upgraded life form the skulks bite ability could improve and grapple on if the player holds down the mouse button.
<!--quoteo(post=1721098:date=Aug 6 2009, 05:31 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Aug 6 2009, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Idea off the top of my head - after a couple seconds of charging, the skulk can spit acid on a single marine to weaken them for the ambush somehow, sort of like the Parasite -> Bite combo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not a bad idea, especially if the "acid spit" only drains armor off the marine. It would fulfill the goading function Charlie mentions, too.
I think the skulk still needs some kind of ranged provoke attack. He needs to be able to do a couple damage to a marine, hopefully pissing the rine off, and goading hom to walk down the corridor (queue evil alien laugh).
How about alt-fire for bite is a tongue whip-lash. Say the skulk has evolved to have a very long tongue he can throw out and whip a marine with. It should have good range, but not infinite range like parasite, and although the tongue will whip out and come back very fast, the skulk should be immobile while its out. The attack itself should probably only do 4-5 damage and take similar adren levels as para did in NS1.
But imagine a marine walking down a hallway when all of the sudden a tongue from a vent flies out and whips him, causing him to rage (since it now takes 2 bites instead of 3 to kill him, etc) and get his teammate to boost him into the vent to go after the skulk, all the while the skulk is waiting cloaked right there and chomps down on his new flesh and metal dinner.
This was inspired from "Alien", as the skulk is similar to the dog-alien in Alien 3, and the aliens from those movies have a deadly projectile tongue.
I like the idea of a sort of 'leg-swipe' attack that the skulk could do. It could stop him from biting for a short time, but still be used instantly after biting. In essence it would be something you could use to 'one-two' punch an enemy player, taking them out quickly, giving the skulk an advantage in one on one engagements, but in a one to many situation it would be less effective due to the downtime before being able to attack again.
The parasite question is something fairly difficult, you want something that is both useful and not too effective, but also not something that isn't completely neglected. If it were to give feedback to the Alien commander only somehow, albeit waypoints that the effected marine receives, or maybe some additional information (armour, ammunition, load out, upgrades what have you) I think that would be a nice way to link the scout element of both the commander and the skulk to complement each other without overlapping.
Otherwise great stuff. Although it's slightly disconcerting that some of these things still need to be worked out, it's good to see a finished product on the table. Can't wait to see what you did with the Fade and the Lerk.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Secondary bite should be more of a 'finishing' move once a marine gets into red health where you can drag him away.
1) The marine is relatively helpless, and the skulk can drag him into a vent (including whatever gun he was carrying). 2) The skulk can also have some fun with him by dangling him in doorways to warn approaching marines. 3) Marine would possibly be able to defend himself with taser, but it would only get the skulk off him if the skulk had low health.
Pros:
- Adds tons of atmosphere (how cool would it be to see a marine being dragged off into a vent by a couple of skulks giving him cover!) - Encourages skulks to work together since the skulk doing it would be relatively vulnerable to marine fire. - Reinforces that marines need to stick together with their squads, because it is incredibly risky to go alone. - If somebody is ramboing with a nice gun, they lose access to that dropped gun to the rest of their team due to the skulk making it inaccessible in a vent or some other inaccessible location. - Marine couldn't be dragged forever, even if he is able to free himself from the first skulk, it does damage to him when a skulk uses the ability. So if he was already in red he might not survive another drag attempt.
Cons:
- 10 seconds out of the game might be like the old Onos devour. Could compensate by giving the marine a chance to free himself with taser assuming the skulk is hurt enough. - Would it be "fun" for the marine being dragged? There is a definite comedic aspect to it (HELP ME HE'S TAKING ME! lol), but would it become boring for the marine? Allowing taser use gives him hope of escape. Would have to be tested to see if it was fun.
Overall it seems that it would be a natural extension to the standard 'bite' ability, while adding lots of fun for both players involved.
Comments
The alternative for the Skulk should be a Swipe attack. It seems like the obvious thing to do. They have these sharp boney arms and all they use is their mouth? I think a nice impaling attack would be a great alternate fire for the Skulk.
- A type of root/slow effect could be possible, but no doubt would require extensive playtesting. I'm not sure if the marines will be able to see their own model (ie - look down see your torso/legs) If so, that "grab" effect could be interesting, especially if the skulk would correctly latch onto the marine positionally, depending at what angle he hit him from (would add strategic value). 'Tis an idea, but maybe not worth the time/effort to implement it correctly ?
- Another thought on that depends on if marines will get a "melee bash" ability, to knock the skulk off or back.
- What are people's thought on having a (maybe Hive_2 ?) ability where the leap/pounce subdues a marine and does damage over time to him (think the Hunter leap in Left4Dead)
- Since parasite is gone (and no word on xeno), my hope would be for an additional attack, rather than just bite. My suggestion would be for a close-range DoT attack, perhaps stabs the marines with his claw(s) and leaves him "bleeding" pure hp (not armor) for X seconds. This could even possibly be used as a way for the lowerlife form to do dmg to a heavy armor since the DoT would go straight to HP, negating the armor.
- This would grant the skulk a whole new tactic of attacking prey, with potential "hit and runs" coupled with Leap being available right away.
- It also could be used as a last ditch attack when you are biting a marine's legs, and you know you are going to die, to try and leave him with low hp and a DoT after you die, which may give an chance to kill him if the marines doesn't receive a medpac right away.
- I wholeheartedly agree with adding Leap as a Hive_1 ability, even if it is a shorter distance.
- If there is no additional attack given, than Leap/Pounce would be a good idea as the alt-fire for bite. It will become such an important ability, you want it to be easily accessible to new players without having to rebind a bunch of keys. If nothing else, then definitely have Leap / Blink have a similar function that was added later on in NS1 (3.0 ?) where the Leap / Blink would immediately revert back to your Bite / Swipe ability when let go.
It really would just encourage team work for marines
Normal bite is for quick and high damage
Grab / hold bite (probably would call it tear) is for low damage, but high damage over a long time.
love the idea of a grapple/hanging on style attack where the skulk clamps on with the claws, and uses the teeth to tear and tear away - this would be more effective against structures and heavy armour - perhaps it would be a special ability which focus more on destroying armor, and leaving the health bar exposed to other attacks? (kind of like the taser i guess!)
for alt fire - perhaps some kind of stealth/concentration ability - where the skulks is completely silent, and marines are somehow highlighted - you would hold down the alt fire, to charge it up, it lasts for say 5-10 seconds - kinds of like when snipers hold their breath.
but then when released it makes a loudish snarl or breathing sound - so you can use it to enhance your stealth but if you waste your opportunity it could give your location away - and also freak the hell out of marines!
To be honest, just creating something for this alt-fire purpose would feel like you're forcing something into the skulk that shouldn't be. I agree with leap being the alt-fire for bite. Having to switch weapons to use leap is so half-life 1.
i particularly enjoyed the transition from walking to running (about 20sec in the vid)
i got a strong sense of a wild dog or 'big' cat from the shoulder movement.
I almost moved forward in my chair so strong was the feeling of power in the upper section of the torso.
very very well done to the art dept, once again, proving that UW is among the ranks of the BIG studios when it comes to raw talent and a commitment to realising a vision.
As far as the parasite ability is concerned, i'd just like to add, and i'm sure i'm not alone here, that i have very fond memories of the rare and delighting times that i managed to kill a marine with the parasite ability. It would be a shame to see this type of enjoyment removed.
On a more Personal note, as someone who aspires to enter the game industry, i must say, Unkown Worlds (specifically Charlie, Cory and Andrew) are a HUGE inspiration for me and a constant source encouragement. Well done guys, i wish you all nothing but success and i'm sure when NS2 finally ships, your work will speak for itself, and put the studio in the spotlight for some time to come :D
Can't wait to see that!
I was just struck by another Left 4 Dead-esque type of attack, although it doesn't seem very likely. Something like the Smoker's tongue which could pull Marines and even hang them from ceilings. But they'd still be able to look around and shoot at the skulk.
THE SKULK'S GENDER IS -> MALE !!!!
Ive been waiting about 7 years for this information! Thank you!
First and foremost, this provides a much needed incentive to keep marines operating in groups. One of the biggest problems in the early version was that there was no disincentive to marines to prevent them from going 'rambo' on their own. How do you get a 'grapple' skulk off you? YOU don't. Your TEAMMATEe that is standing beside you can quickly and easily shoot it off you. No muss, no fuss. This would be a deadly attack for people running solo, but would be a useless attack for marines in a group. If you are 'grappled' on to a marine you are vulnerable, and an easy target.
Second, it would give aliens a second form of 'group' attack. At present, a group attack as skulks basically relies on skulks rushing in and hoping that one or two survive long enough to do damage. What if a bunch of skulks instead did a 'grapple' rush? The difference here is that when you grapple on a marine's back, that marine needs to turn his back to the other marines to get them to shoot it off. What if all of the skulks hit from behind and grappled? The natural instinct is to turn TOWARDS your fellow marines, but if they all do that, then no one will have a shot at the skulks. So the chaos could give way to a new form of skulk rush.
Lastly, and most importantly, I would pay good money to see a marine run across a hallway (coming from somewhere out of line of sight) screaming "GET THEM OFF ME!!!" while seeing 3 or 4 skulks attached to his body as he flails about. :D
Let's remember here, if a skulk is close enough and in the proper position to land a grapple, then he would just as easily be able to land a bite. We're not talking a grapple from range, this is a melee attack. So if a skulk lands a grapple, the damage should be equal to what a bite would be, over 5 seconds. (arbitrary numbers for sake of discussion) All this does is deliver the bite in a different way. To a solo marine, this is a huge risk since he can't kill the skulk on him. To a group of marines it is a significantly reduced threat.
As for a counter in cases with FF on, this would depend on whether marines are being given a 'melee' swing. If they are not, then marines just have to be that much more accurate. However, I do think grapple would be a great addition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well said :)
If it creates problems with people turning about like crazy, you could also do what the Left 4 Dead hunter does, and this would pin down a marine - but of course exposing the skulk.
But it would look way cooler with a skulk "backpack" and the marine stumbling, screaming, and shooting wildly :)
Like the idea of grapple though. Maybe if it lasted only for about 6 seconds at the time, give very little damage after the actual biting down on the marine, with the purpose of holding on to the marine until your mates come around. I can't see it working like when a dog drags something away. The only way to get him off, would as some people say, is to get another marine to shoot him of or if you could slap him over the head with your weapon a couple of times. But I'm not sure if that would work if you have the Skulk on your back. Would be funny if there are equal numbers of Skulks and Marines in a hallway, each marine with a Skulk on his back, not much to do then.
Kinda found the idea of eating a bit of flesh from a fallen Marine as a health boost interesting too. Maybe it's something else then a health boost, some kind of focus boost where you get a bit more speed for a short amount of time, a bit more bite damage or maybe an infectious bite that deals damage over time.
Maybe not an alt-fire but would be fun to see one alien have the ability to "charge up" and spit out some kind of acid goo. Maybe as a mine, or something that deteriorate structures over time. Just a thought.
Keep up the great work guys! Personally I'm looking the most forward to seeing Heavy Armor! Boom!
LOL - shoot mine first, shoot mine first! that would be hilarious and awesome :D as the marines try to shoot skulks off their team mates backs, as they themselves are being torn apart from the back hah
onwards to the gorge reveal
My first idea, which I personally like best, is something akin to the sandvich from TF2 - The skulk licks itself.
By licking itself, it heals maybe 1/4-1/3 of its full health at a time, or maybe even just press and hold alt fire to continuously heal, depending on whether or not you want to player to be able to interrupt the licking to attack (I'm for slow continuous heal).
During that time it is not moving, and the player is looking at the floor or a wound. It would make a whimper/slurping sound, so marines in the area would know there was a wounded skulk nearby.
That's the way most animals handle wounds, anyways. They probably don't heal with a magic spray or by flailing their arms about.
I think grapple would be a fun thing to watch, but I think it would be a fine line between trying to deal enough damage that the marine doesn't just walk to another marine for help, and not dealing so much damage that the marine dies instantly. One thing I am curious about for this though, which I haven't seen addressed anywhere, is will NS2 have location-specific damage? Will one bite to the head kill a marine? If so, then maybe that's the key to balancing... grappling the head kills quick or whatever.
I'm with others who have said that a disabling or impairing attack is too much. I mean, we're talking about alt fire for the base attack of the starting alien class. It seems that, to make it balanced, it would have to be so ineffective as to be useless.
Anyways, those are my thoughts. I hope to see the wound licking in action! :D:D:D:D
Maybe some kind of bloodlust thingy? Like if you kill a marine the skulk gets twice the damage and speed for a few seconds.
This way they wont just be killed when there are alot of marines pushing one way, or when meeting HA's. And it gives a higher slaughter potential for those who wants to master the skulk. And(/or) gain a temporarily life boost, maybe only for the ones it kills after the first one (that triggers the bloodlust abillity) id rather have lifesteal abillity than eating corpse abillity :p
keep parasite!!!!!!^^ (Btw i think parasite suits lerk better than skulk :o And people loved spikes, atleast me^^, so this might be nice:))
I also hope you dont make the skulk slow (or any other lifeform), cause... thats boring :P I love the freedom of the speed in ns1 (when lerk got slower i was really sad :'(
(for example bunnyjumping is fun :>)
<!--quoteo(post=1721044:date=Aug 6 2009, 11:23 PM:name=DeKay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DeKay @ Aug 6 2009, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about some kind of roundhouse-kick-attack as secondary? :D
Some attack where the skulk moves in a circle very fast and deals damage to all marines/buildings around him. You could only do it once every minute so people wouldnt turn around in circles all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please dont make anything like that.... Klick one button to make 10 moves! IF you are to do something you should do it out of skill.
SentrySteve: i think its a great way to envolve the players and to see what they like. Also to keep ns2 in everyones heads so they buy it / tell friends. (Evil masterplan you guys got going there :P)
Edit: Just a litte while after I posted this new posts had come, so I read them and now I got ideas >:P
I read TheLord's idea and I like it. If you are going to remove parasite, then a attack that leaves a scent/blood trail could be a good substitute :)
and as oNEO wrote: "so I thought what about a mild stun version which effects the marines camera view. If skulks use teamwork they can stun individual marines in groups and give themselves an advantage instead of just running in seperately"
I love teamwork, and its very much why i like NS. The Skulk specially is a lifeform needs that teamwork. unlike the fade.
AND...JAmazon's idea of grapple. I see potential in this, for teamwork; if you use silence, for example, you can grapple down the marine walking last without making alot of CHMOP CHOMP RATATATATA noises.
To limit the grapple, i think its prefect for it to use up adrenaline, that way using celerity/silence/adrenaline will affect the grapple. Silence - as i said before. Adrenaline - longer grapple time. Celerity - well you dont die trying :) This could also encurage Marine teamwork, if a lone HA rushes off with his new hmg to farm skulk-kills, he could just get pinned down and killed.
or maybe you just add grapple as a "chamber" upgrade for the skulk, so it can pick either celerity,silence,adrenaline or grapple.... but wait... then my idea with chamber-upgs affecting it fails, so nvm.
nice model, he reminds me of a dog so much, what a cutie >.>
I also thought about an ability like the L4D pouce idea but that would be overpowering the skulk (unless it had a low success rate as in it
had to be a headshot)
so I thought what about a mild stun version which effects the marines camera view,
also if the skulk grabs on make the marine have to swing his camera(mouse) around or shake the skulk off
-One main question is when the marines get hit does it effect their view? so if they get attacked from the side their viewing camera slants to
the left to give a more interactive feel. The faster the skulk hits the marine the more his viewing camera shakes/stunned.
If skulks use teamwork they can stun individual marines in groups and give themselves an advantage instead of just running in seperately.
I'm sure all these ideas are from other games but a large percentage of devs use other games for inspiration.
Personally I'd like to see several keyboard play styles implemented I don't know how much effort that would take tho.
why all aliens have some iron :)
- Grapple: I love the idea of a hold kind of attack for a skulk. I imagine it kind of like a jaw lock on the marines leg that slows him down until the skulk releases (lets go of the mouse button) or is killed. The way I imagine the mechanics of it going are, the skulk initializes the grapple by running up to the marine and pressing( and holding) the fire key. This does about the same initial damage (mabe less) as a regular bite, but now is latched on and the marine is now at 50% speed or something. This opens up opportunities for fellow skulks to come in and easily subdue the prey. Can be used to take out straggling marines, break apart fast moving rushes, any number of tactical and team based uses. To get out of the grapple, all the marine has to do is look down and kill the skulk or one of his friends helps (simple enough, but this a confusion tactic so in general the marine will be too frantic to do so). The draw back to the skulk using this grapple attack could be a 1 second lock jaw scenario where he cant release the marine for about a second. Thus a badly timed grapple could spell doom for the skulk.
- Parasite: Dont think this should be poopooed just yet. Recall that in NS1 the comm can only see aliens based on LOS of his marines (or scan). If it works similar to that for the alien comm in NS2 mabe you can make it so that parasited marines are visible to alien comm even out of LOS...OR and even more creative idea would be to make it so that alien comm can actually see LOS of the parasited marine! :O That would truly turn a parasited marine into a strategic liability.
I completely know that the chances of these ideas being even considered is null, but I wouldnt be able to sleep unless I at least tried.
Personally I'd like to see several keyboard play styles implemented I don't know how much effort that would take tho.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, looks like a couple people beat me to it. I was gonna say, Leap sounds like a great alt fire for the bite. It saves the troubles of hitting "last weapon" in midair and players wouldn't have to come up with scripts for it either.
As for Fade, I'm not sure if Blink should be the alt of the main melee, or if Metabolize (if still implemented) should be. (or have Blink/Metabolize on M1/M2?)
I hate the skulk's lower jaw. No front teeth? How the heck does he bite with the front of his mouth, especially hard enough to crack nanoplate armor??? How does he tear flesh without gnawing on a leg with the side of his mouth? Wouldn't multiple hinges reduce the amount of force he can clamp down with, and/or make his jaw more fragile?
Everything else looks good, though. I'll miss the old skulk, but this one could still be cool.
On the note of gameplay - will skulks walking on walls and ceilings have their cameras inverted, or will the camera always remain "right-side up" as in NS1?
edit:
Yay for still having the POV inside his mouth, though. That was one thing about NS1 that stood out the moment you spawned as an alien, and even more-so the first time you clicked and actually bit. It was really cool and I'm glad to see it stay.
I don't like the idea of a L4D-style pounce. NS just isn't the same sort of game, fights shouldn't be so black-and-white as being dead if you're alone and unhurt if a buddy is there. I do like the idea of forced teamwork and ambush perks though. Maybe Bite's alt fire should be a chargeable attack that slows you down while charging, so that you have to be set up in an ambush spot to use it? Idea off the top of my head - after a couple seconds of charging, the skulk can spit acid on a single marine to weaken them for the ambush somehow, sort of like the Parasite -> Bite combo. Maybe it makes them take extra damage, or makes them flinch so they can't shoot for a second?
Here's a visual aid:
<img src="http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1783/1300181431.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
A few people have mentioned eating, or dragging of marines. I don't like the idea of eating marines, however, I can imagine skulks dragging the dead bodies of marines about.
one idea is that bodies of dead marines could be collected for extra res when they are dragged to nearby resource towers
The bodies can only be dragged slowly (but possibly faster if more skulks help) , so the skulk player risks being an easy target for marines. so it kind of balances out.
I for one would love doing this if I was playing as a skulk, and it also promotes teamwork with the skulks. and as a marine, it would be very spooky seeing a group of skulks dragging a body around a corner or possible up inside a vent, lol.
This action will probably be seen most at the beginning of a match when the opposing teams are trying to collect as much res as possible to advance their team.
I'm up for having the alt fire button as the leap, as having to switch from bite to leap is a bit strange, as they are not weapons, but are actions.
but I am also very partial to the idea of having a grapple. perhaps as an upgraded life form the skulks bite ability could improve and grapple on if the player holds down the mouse button.
That's not a bad idea, especially if the "acid spit" only drains armor off the marine. It would fulfill the goading function Charlie mentions, too.
How about alt-fire for bite is a tongue whip-lash. Say the skulk has evolved to have a very long tongue he can throw out and whip a marine with. It should have good range, but not infinite range like parasite, and although the tongue will whip out and come back very fast, the skulk should be immobile while its out. The attack itself should probably only do 4-5 damage and take similar adren levels as para did in NS1.
But imagine a marine walking down a hallway when all of the sudden a tongue from a vent flies out and whips him, causing him to rage (since it now takes 2 bites instead of 3 to kill him, etc) and get his teammate to boost him into the vent to go after the skulk, all the while the skulk is waiting cloaked right there and chomps down on his new flesh and metal dinner.
This was inspired from "Alien", as the skulk is similar to the dog-alien in Alien 3, and the aliens from those movies have a deadly projectile tongue.
The parasite question is something fairly difficult, you want something that is both useful and not too effective, but also not something that isn't completely neglected. If it were to give feedback to the Alien commander only somehow, albeit waypoints that the effected marine receives, or maybe some additional information (armour, ammunition, load out, upgrades what have you) I think that would be a nice way to link the scout element of both the commander and the skulk to complement each other without overlapping.
Otherwise great stuff. Although it's slightly disconcerting that some of these things still need to be worked out, it's good to see a finished product on the table. Can't wait to see what you did with the Fade and the Lerk.
1) The marine is relatively helpless, and the skulk can drag him into a vent (including whatever gun he was carrying).
2) The skulk can also have some fun with him by dangling him in doorways to warn approaching marines.
3) Marine would possibly be able to defend himself with taser, but it would only get the skulk off him if the skulk had low health.
Pros:
- Adds tons of atmosphere (how cool would it be to see a marine being dragged off into a vent by a couple of skulks giving him cover!)
- Encourages skulks to work together since the skulk doing it would be relatively vulnerable to marine fire.
- Reinforces that marines need to stick together with their squads, because it is incredibly risky to go alone.
- If somebody is ramboing with a nice gun, they lose access to that dropped gun to the rest of their team due to the skulk making it inaccessible in a vent or some other inaccessible location.
- Marine couldn't be dragged forever, even if he is able to free himself from the first skulk, it does damage to him when a skulk uses the ability. So if he was already in red he might not survive another
drag attempt.
Cons:
- 10 seconds out of the game might be like the old Onos devour. Could compensate by giving the marine a chance to free himself with taser assuming the skulk is hurt enough.
- Would it be "fun" for the marine being dragged? There is a definite comedic aspect to it (HELP ME HE'S TAKING ME! lol), but would it become boring for the marine? Allowing taser use gives him hope
of escape. Would have to be tested to see if it was fun.
Overall it seems that it would be a natural extension to the standard 'bite' ability, while adding lots of fun for both players involved.