I love the taser idea. It's really well thought out. But I would change one thing. The dart attack that it has. I would like to see these more as a trap device that you can set on the ground. Sort of like gorge web. So as an alien walks over it, you can use your taser as a remote device and electricute the specimen.
That's my 2 cents. I don't really think having 2 primary attacks as long range isn't really necessary rather than mixing up the abilities the taser can produce instead such as my example.
I would like to point out that the trap device should also be limited similar to how Mines work. It would actually even replace mines in NS, but this also means no mine ladders....hmmm....
Also, I think that the battery cartridge should be removed and replaced. Unless you just plan on a limited charge on the same battery at all times. (I think that's what you're going with anyways) A good game to look at for tasers is Condemned: Criminal Origins.
Aegix's idea for melee damage ramp taser for taking out rts is great because you can either sit there and multiply your damage NEVER checking for skulks, or you can check every once in a while but not take it down as quickly.
Also I liked the sequence of LMG:ratatat quick! switch to pistol PISTOL: pow pow pow quick! switch to knife KNIFE: slash slash... chomp, you're dead.
... in increasing stages of desperation.
The pistol with projectiles is better suited to that than a tricky, somewhat gimmicky taser probe weapon thing. I do like its complexity though.
<!--quoteo(post=1718886:date=Jul 23 2009, 03:57 AM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CyberMantis @ Jul 23 2009, 03:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I misread the original news piece... "It also means one less weapon to concept, model, texture, rig and animate!"
That to me sounds crazy. How difficult would it be to do a knife and pistol that already exist? I would think that the argument is nullified by the experimental nature of this concept. Go ahead and try it if you want, thats why there is an ALPHA (right?) and eventually a beta... but please don't exclude the others and hope to integrate the two to save some time. Count on the knife and pistol, even as the back. Is it so hard?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to understand is that they outsource their modeling/skinning and animation. It is not a question of difficulty, because well, no one on the team can do it. They have to pay someone to do it every time.
EDIT: Hehe, I see Flayra lurking the thread right now : )
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Considering that the knife adds elements of excitement, comedy, and heroism into fights, I don't see why having it around would be undesirable. If anything, knife attacks could be made to look more variable - switch up stabs, slashes, cuts for animations - that would make the use of a knife more epic if monotony is a problem. As for killing structures.. you could modify knife attacks to do more damage to stationary targets over time just as you would plan with the tazer device. However, using the knife on structures is risky since aliens are given the opportunity to ambush the player as he tries to change to a different weapon. Replacement with the tazer would upset this element of gameplay. While a tazer might be an interesting tool to have (playtesting will show just how practical it is..), the knife has almost always been a part of a fighting outfit as a tool to fall back on in close range encounters.
Flayra, I respect the reasons why you ask for feedback, but I also hope you take this feedback with a huge grain of salt. No paradigm shift was ever met without backlash, and this is a step away from the canon of the vanilla knife/pistol combination. I agree something needs to be changed, but I feel you can only decide whether the mechanics of the taser are any good in a beta/alpha.
However, I logged in to direct you to another game developer (one who you probably already read), because the need for something more complex than a knife/pistol system seems to address the loss of creativity and complexity in modern game design.
Simply having varied hitboxes on the structures is a good way to make destroying buildings less mundane. You could have panels on marine structures which could be bitten away and chomped on the inside. Same for aliens, you could have eyelid like covers on parts of the alien structures. Another example: a weak spot could be placed on top of the marine RT-- skulks would have to jump on top to hit it, but in doing so, make themselves better targets to marines coming to defend it.
Perhaps welding on these weakpoints of marine buildings also gives a higher rate of repair.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is: maybe there needs to be more METHOD in taking down structures rather than flashier tools. Something which demands the player's attention. One of the GREATEST CONCEPTS in my opinion was the welder minigame idea; tracing welder lines on a keypad to unlock it. I think this kind of thinking needs to be applied to destroying structures.
As for the taser, I'm not sure whether a taser fits the NS marine world. Like others here, I see the marines being much more industrial and militaristic; tasers seem too passive to me. Others have suggested, making it a bought weapon rather than a default secondary weapon is more appealing. Though, I can appreciate that the taser offers A LOT in terms of gameplay (electrifying structures, powering structures, chains of electricity).
Sarisel and Freewave, both of your ideas are the opposite of what the team wants to accomplish. Which is to reduce the amount of work they have to do or contract out. Giving the knife more animations is wasted resources and still has the problem at starting at a blob for 30 seconds waiting for it to die. Adding weak points would be a huge waste of resources in animation, modeling and programming.
In NS1 lmg-pistol make a great combo. With pistol for long-mid range and lmg for mid-short range you can be very effective. It's almost like you have something for every situation. Just good luck trying to make a better combo than that to ns2. Ofcourse without seeing the big picture it's impossible to say how the taser would adapt in the game since it's going to be a different game.
Only effective use for knife is unusually with w0 knifing safe restower. In combat it's quite useless, because rather than knifing a skulk, which has logner biterange than knife and blocking fireline of teammates, it's often better just start reloading lmg, cry meds ja evade bites. Even if you get 1 skulk killed another one is likely to come before reloading. At some point I even wondered to unbind knife or not. Still keeping it for now.
Personally I dont like too many functions and properties for weapons. Just 1 weapon in 1 slot and it works one way. Ofcourse I got nothing against using same weapon for different purposes.
[EDIT] Actually, additional animations probably wouldn't be needed if you ignore the panel thing I said. Weak points could just be exposed cables. I would have thought that adding hitboxes varying in damage susceptability wouldn't be as complicated as some of the taser functions like chains of electricity. Then again, I've never coded anything before. Regardless, I'm confident that the NS team will make whatever they do good.
Just to add, I'd like to see the welder having a more prominent role and have it come in as a decent melee weapon as people have suggested.
<!--quoteo(post=1718912:date=Jul 23 2009, 05:53 AM:name=ckreon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ckreon @ Jul 23 2009, 05:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen a couple other people post sharing my concern with development time - and I'm just curious what everyone else's take on this is?
I read that we would be getting an alpha and tools as early as August/September. Then I see posts like this discussing absolute core game play issues that are obviously still way up in the air!
I recognize that it is the dev's game to do what they want with and release when they want, but I feel a bit deceived every time I read a news post displaying 'progress' and realize that how little they've actually accomplished toward core game development. I understand the engine probably took a good chunk of their time, but why then are we starting pre-orders now AND a promised 2009 release? I can't imagine anything beyond an alpha being released this year, yet alone the full game (which was promised in the FAQ at naturalselection2.com)! They might just squeak in a beta before the year turns, but at the current pace it seems unlikely.
I guess either way it doesn't matter, and I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm just curious how everyone else feels in regards to this.
And hey, maybe I'll get surprised by the small, dedicated team working a miracle and getting it out in '09 - who knows!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of agree with you, but a few things.
They never announced a date for the alpha or tools being released. They may have given a date they would try to get them out, but it was never really a set release date.
Again, they never "promised" a 2009 release date. Games get delayed all of the time, they just set a date they are going to try to make, if they can't get the game out by then, it get's delayed. It's not really that big of a deal.
It's frustrating because this game is the game I'm mostly looking forward to this year, even more so than Starcraft 2. I understand that delays are a good thing, because that gives the developers more time to improve the game.
I agree though, everytime I see a twiiter update, I'm a little upset, because it seems like not much has been done on the game, they keep bringing out these new concept weapons and ask for our input, when it would make more sense to bring out an alpha so people can actually try it out and then give constructive opinions.
I agree though, I think it's pretty much inevitable for a delay on this game. Unless they have a lot more work done then it seems, which I doubt.
NS2 can't really be delayed. At a certain point they just run out of money and that is sooner than later. They don't have a publisher acting as a safety net for them.
"why do we need this weird impractical toy... especially when this is the "Future" and their's no such thing as a "Taser""
Perplexing. You and others talk about this idea as if it's too "old", "outdated" or un-marine like. You cite other examples of advanced weaponry but then absolutely in your mind block off any concept of a marine "taser" being any different to our real life versions now. Isn't this a bizarre way to make an argument?
Also we need not forget that though this is an FPS, it's also a strategy game, it's about map control. Marines are not shock troopers they are all round warriors that need to both deal with alien life forms and re-gaining their territory before the infestation takes hold.
Without going too far into customising and classes, which would only bog this game down, it's only reasonable to expect what the marines take on board the ships and stations to be good, though maybe not perfect, for the initial situation, whatever is thrown at them, and sticking a knife and a pistol on them as well as their LMG is a bit counter-intuitive to this idea. As long as this weapon also has other practical uses, it could be a perfect start game item to mix things up
The Taser is just a weird design choice. One of the main creative directions the TSA has is being gritty. Which means "no energy weapons", which the Taser is. It's going to be shooting out bolts of lightning at things that have transponders on them. That's very much an energy weapon.
If something like the Taser Pistol is a viable, deadly weapon choice... it brings up the question why the other marine weapons are not energy based. It would make sense for the pistol to be sonic based, like the siege cannon is. Same technology just repurposed. The small size of the pistol could be just explained away by saying that anything larger (e.g. a rifle) would be too dangerous to operated by individual marines due to the destructive tendencies of sonic weaponry.
e.g.
Primary Fire: A loud noise is made from the pistol and instead of a bullet being shot, a small, damaging shockwave created where-ever the pistol is pointed at. Secondary Fire: A low humming noise is created that creates distortion cone from the pistol. This causes things to tear themselves apart by vibration, dealing more damage the longer something is inside the field. This does more damage against structures.
But that's silly... probablly as silly as giving marines some TASER... We're not taking prisoners here! Are we going to get some cable ties as well for securing the enemy to some random pipe in the map... Sort of like how the onos-digest could take marines out of the fight for a period of time, that we could prevent some fade from moving for 4 minutes lol
Then maybe some marine, with bullets!! (and a gun!!), can come around and execute the alien prisoners! :P
--------------
What if we copy from that Jurassic park sequel and use poison darts instead? It makes more sense that some biological weapon could be more lethal (in a smaller form factor) and fast acting to shutdown the nerve system then some magical non-lethal TASER...
Then we don't need any crazy electric ghost buster fps-sucking animations on the enemy (and animations of them wiggling on the floor) and they just fall over and die 4-10 seconds after being darted (depending on how many darts got fired into it).
Maybe we can run into a hive... dart some eggs secretly and run out :P
It even works on ememy rts... we can "POISON" the biological enemy RT... The first couple of minutes and it produces half as much resources... if a gorge doesn't "HEAL" it then it just falls off the node... all dieseased and disgusting.
Ofcourse it doesn't have infinite ammunition... only a knife or an axe, or a knife axe, can have such a feature!!
Knife - seemed to take a similar amount of time to take down an rt as a skulks main weapon. Skulks have to worry about depleting their energy in case of counter attack while marines are just fine. In this light the knife seems bit overpowered. In actual melee fights, its damage and balance seemed fine and was even on par with the lmg when used well.
Pistol - was well balanced for players who did not script. Scripting was and is a problem in NS1 because it bypasses intent and creates a level of meta-gaming that separates new players from folks who are in fact cheating the system. The NS1 pistol is a monstrosity. If the devs want to keep it the way it is, they need to change it so that it's the same for scripters and non-scripters alike. I propose a one shot pistol that outright deals the same amount as a scripted pistol does now firing every last round. If we can't live with that as a community, then we have a problem with the old pistol and just don't want to admit it because of the advantage it was giving.
Taser - wha? One of the fantastic things about NS is its feel. In my early days of playing one word seemed to stand out from the descriptions given in the FAQ for NS and that was "gritty." Gritty. Hear me? I said GRITTY. A taser is not gritty. A taser will not be gritty. If you dunked a taser in tar and rolled it around in sand, it still wouldn't be gritty. It's smooth, sleek, and sophisticated and I'm pretty sure that port on the side is where you park your ipod. It makes the trade-off of forcefulness for elegance as described below.
In reality there is a formula we like to use (pardon the use of reality, but that is where they're grabbing the taser from), P = IV = RI^2. That equation really gets to the meat of what a taser is. There isn't a lot of power (P) in a taser because it trades off amp (I, the stuff that will cook you when you throw a toaster in your bath) for voltage (V, the stuff that messes with your nerves). A human's R value is something like 300-1000 Ohms, which for those of you following this conversation is quite a bit. All known portable devices have very limited power (P), and since the target will have at least the resistance ® of a human it means that the current through an alien would be enough to perhaps warm a toaster pastry at best.
The only conceivable way around this in reality is to use a decent sized capacitor and have that small power source charge it for several minutes which makes a ridiculous reload time at best. If one argues that in the future we'll have great small power sources, you can keep the taser and I'll make a rail gun. On a side note, a high amp taser is basically a welder so in theory you could combine these as well.
As far as stuns go: Stuns are great in reality but poorly conceived for gameplay. That is, the point of a game is for both parties to be actively having fun. Stuns are an "I win" button. During most battles people are having fun even if they're on the losing side. Stuns prevent the actions of one player and subsequently frustrate them, limiting the fun in the situation to be unidirectional. Control freaks and BDSM fetishists may absolutely love and adore these things, but they tend to be a turn off to the masses (stuns as well, ha ha) and I can cite several games that have this as an ongoing criticism of their battle system (WoW, TF2's scout's baseball attack, being in an onos and not being able to knife, etc.).
I like the idea of having a new weapon. How about we combine some of what I've said and have a mini rail gun. It takes a while to charge up just like a reload time, but can sit there charged in your inventory. You can bring it out and it'll shoot at any range for fairly high damage. Oh wait, that's the old pistol for scripters again. Honestly though, changing to this isn't a bad idea and it'll let the devs balance the damage for all players instead of leaving them in two categories.
I apologize for the scathing review, but I think it was necessary. We wouldn't bother writing and straining over this if we didn't love the game too.
For those saying that bullets would always be better against structures than melee weapons - I don't see that as necessarily true. If you consider a large jelly like blob then conceivably bullets would enter, make a nice track through it but the hole would seal itself almost instantly and the bullet would just slow down and be trapped inside. In comparison, chopping bits off would probably be too severe to have the jelly stick back together by itself and heating/electrocuting it could again maybe be more efficient.
I like the powering structures idea, but if you're shooting a stream of electricity (with or without any wire guides) what's supposed to stop it just short circuiting / breaking when shooting metal - or even when shooting aliens.
I'd be interested in seeing what happens with this if it's put in, so long as it looks a bit different...
a taser? that is the stupidest ###### ever. it seems to me that the devs are trying incredibly too hard to impress people. overkill. and i can't help but mention that the onos model looks retarded.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1718982:date=Jul 23 2009, 03:46 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Jul 23 2009, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's smooth, sleek, and sophisticated and I'm pretty sure that port on the side is where you park your ipod. It makes the trade-off of forcefulness for elegance as described below.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That gives me an idea, IPod replacement skin for the Taser anyone? They're both trademarked names anyway, lol.
I don't like this taser idea too much. Firstly the use of a taser is to subdue subjects, and as marines the goal is to eliminate the aliens... it doesn't fit well with the theme. I'm not sure on how you would setup this taser, would the prongs move slowly through the air and drop to the ground, making aiming difficult? In a desperate situation I don't see it working.
How about a more appropriate weapon... say a 'plasma energy blaster' or some other name, something a bit more sci-fi and futuristic. It would have no ammo but instead rely on a regenerating charge taken from the environment over time (you could run out of charge by using it too much). This 'energy blaster' could work much like hl1's gauss gun, shooting one single beam, or charging up for say 10-20 seconds to release a massive beam of energy. It could also work as a close range weapon, with having a 'charged tip' that releases energy into anything that touches it... picture something similar to hl2's police baton. In addition by touching two or more of these tips together you could form an 'energy shield', potentially slowing, blocking, or damaging anything that touches it, but this will drain the energy quickly so time is limited.
Anyways, that is just my opinion. First post also.
As I imagine it the taser could be used to hookshot an alien structure with some distance. Being a sole marine attacking a structure would still be risky in that you would be holding the surged taser rather than a primary weapon, but with a bit of added mobility and awareness while doing so. The ability of the attack to chain also makes it important to spread out alien offensive structures. This has the effect of turning walls of lame into something not entirely wise to make, but still leaves them open as a defensive decision.
It could also be a burst-shot weapon with delays. (Electrodes in-air and in re-firing) Imagine a well-timed shot that hooks a Lerk on one of these suckers. There are three possible things here to narrow the usage and make it less fearsome of a weapon for aliens; movement in general, movement out of range, and gradually increasing damage.
A question was made about what could be done for aliens. Maybe going for feeling rather than a pure gameplay change, there could be more indications of damage on structures. Dents, warping, pieces falling off and such, to make the biting experience much more visceral. :x
A good point was brought up that this addition is likely to be more time consuming than implementing a simple knife and pistol. Another point of worry for some is seeing gameplay elements potentially being axed for time constraints at this point. However, I don't actually see the knife and pistol as being particularly unique or iconic in the NS universe.
It's in fact a bit scary to me that some people liked knifing structures. To me, the knife was jerky and repetitive, with a flimsy indication of impact that made every hit on a structure feel like you were wasting your time. Knifeboxing Skulks on the other hand was fun and had a better feel. Like plush pinatas! Only they don't shower out candy. :(
The pistol was a nice little sniping automatic weapon. As it was the only gun in the game with any accuracy, I can say I've enjoyed using it. The times I've potshotted curious skulks that peeked out of vents are uncountable. For the same reason, I'd also be glad to see it gone. It did have utility in that having an alternate weapon to fall back on made encounters a bit more dynamic, but who is to say a taser won't have the same effect?
Do not confuse streamlined design with bland simplicity, or gameplay depth with unneeded complexity. Don't think there are no vagaries or subtleties in-between. The uses of the taser as they turn up in game will not be all that hard to grasp. It's simple. Shoot things. Like structures and enemies.
I'll bring up one thing from another game that makes some reel in horror. Unified ammo in Deus Ex 2. You could say it simplified things. (Sometimes good.) But it limited your options, as you could no longer try a different weapon after an enduring engagement. (Depth that was important.)
I think this has the chance to simplify things. (Reduced amount of weapons. Potentially not good.) It also has the chance to add some not seen before utility. (More gameplay depth!) Keep in mind that the amount of variety that existed, still exists. You have a secondary and a melee. They're just different.
The risk of neutering gameplay with a compromise is something to be forewarned about, but for this addition, I see little problem.
I think that the mine could have a detonator. If you see that a skulk will pass next to the mine (but won't STEP in the mine) you just activate the detonator and BOOM, he dies. That could be used to explode some OCs, too...
<!--quoteo(post=1718994:date=Jul 23 2009, 09:14 PM:name=CHAOS100)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CHAOS100 @ Jul 23 2009, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like this taser idea too much. Firstly the use of a taser is to subdue subjects,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome to the Forum, a modern day REAL taser is used to subdue subjects. The "Taser" as described in the article is used to hurt them.
wow... reading through all these "constructive" comments i've come to realize that this community fears change...
now i dont know what other weapons are planned but before you start knocking the tazer because its replacing the pistol and knife, maybe we should see what else is in store for this game.
from the details presented to us i could see the tazer add some dynamic team strategy for the marines. aint nothin wrong with that.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited July 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1719006:date=Jul 23 2009, 04:39 PM:name=niaccurshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (niaccurshi @ Jul 23 2009, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Welcome to the Forum, a modern day REAL taser is used to subdue subjects. The "Taser" as described in the article is used to hurt them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the problem might stem from the look of the taser. It needs to look like it's delivering a massive shock instead of going to cause static cling.
edit: instead of panels, what about blade-like prongs?
<!--quoteo(post=1719007:date=Jul 23 2009, 03:41 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Jul 23 2009, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wow... reading through all these "constructive" comments i've come to realize that this community fears change...
now i dont know what other weapons are planned but before you start knocking the tazer because its replacing the pistol and knife, maybe we should see what else is in store for this game.
from the details presented to us i could see the tazer add some dynamic team strategy for the marines. aint nothin wrong with that.
keep the news comin!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If all that's ever said to an artist is that their work is great and timeless, you'd end up with stick figures outside a house beneath a smiling sun for a very long time. Criticism is not only important but also heart wrenching. It's the bittersweet drink standing between you and greatness. You may not like that taste, but please trust that some of us have put some time into our thoughts on the subject.
I personally think the taser will destroy the gritty feel of the marines (even though the artwork shown seems to fit nicely with the other weaponry, nice job on that). It's a fighting style that better fits an NS version of the protoss than the marines. Though I'm also critical of the reasons they feel they need to leave the knife/pistol side arms. I feel they've been broken for a long time and simple fixes are within grasp if they think about the problem from a different angle.
That said, is there a "constructive" way to approach something you disagree with in your world? Have you always railed against your critics and editors when you wrote things for school? Their purpose is the same as the guy with the binoculars next to a sniper. They tell the sniper what he needs to know so that he can have a chance in hell of hitting the target because it's hard to do. Sometimes you listen to your critics and sometimes you don't, and you'll never know who's right until you pull that trigger. In the end it's better to know what other people are considering in case there's something you hadn't thought about. Making a great game is hard to do. Flayra brought this weapon to our attention because there's some debate about it which they're having difficulty resolving either internally or in their meetings.
<!--quoteo(post=1719007:date=Jul 23 2009, 03:41 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Jul 23 2009, 03:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wow... reading through all these "constructive" comments i've come to realize that this community fears change...
now i dont know what other weapons are planned but before you start knocking the tazer because its replacing the pistol and knife, maybe we should see what else is in store for this game.
from the details presented to us i could see the tazer add some dynamic team strategy for the marines. aint nothin wrong with that.
keep the news comin!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Kia. Flayra seems to be letting the community in on helping with the implementation of the Taser or even to put it in at all. When you end your News thread with "Thoughts?" and start a thread for responses i think he is expecting to see how the NS community reacts. Half the posts i read seem to dislike it. This thread is perfect for people to post not only why they do or dont like it but if they dont like it what they would do to fix the problems they put forth. They want one weapon instead of two (cut down on code/cost). It is the people who just go with the flow and see everything the devs put out as the greatest thing ever that in the end hurt the game. You will always have complaints about a topic, it is the percentage of good and bad complaints that matter. So far it is 50 -50 if not 60 - 40 towards no taser.
Too many people see the name Taser and think stun gun. So, first we need to change the name.
I personally like "Portable Emitter for eNergized Nanites". And, yes, the PENN is mightier than the sword.. or knife.
Second, damage curve should be adjusted into more of a U shape. It starts with a (relatively) high burst as the nanites put out their stored charge loaded up from being in the PENN, this rapidly falls off as that charge is used up, but then the damage amount begins to ramp up again as contact with the target is maintained and the trigger held. The reasoning being that the nanites in the darts home into the path between them and build up speed in their destructive movement. When contact is broken between the PENN darts and the target, the damage falls back to the low levels, to resume building upon contact. Once the marine lets go of the trigger, the darts again build up power for an initial damage burst when the trigger is squeezed.
The point of this? Two really.
The first is to enable the PENN to still function as a shield, as pointed ou in the Dev thing, but to also give marines with skill the ability to use the PENN as a kind of electro-punch. You swing to hit the skulk, if your timing and aim is good, you do a blast of damage, the skulk backs off and you let go of the trigger, charging them up again for another swing.
Or, if you don't think you'll be able to hit them well enough, just hold down the trigger and do DoT. So long as you can keep the darts in contact, the damage will start to ramp up again.
The second is to simplify controls left click starts power between all darts, whether they're in the PENN or fired out. Right click fires the darts, two at a time.
This is a smoother learning curve for players. They'll get the PENN, pull the trigger (LMB) and see an initial loud crackle and then it ramp down to sizzling or whatever (or perhaps a charge guage will lower from red to yellow or whatever). Instantly understandable. Then when they hit RMB for their alt fire, they'll see the darts fly, and LMB performs exactly the same action, just with the darts at a distance. Again, simple to understand. As they get more into the game, they'll find the different ways to use it.. and figure out things like how the steady shield doesn't do as much damage as successive burst hits, but doesn't have the chance of missing that a burst hit does, which can leave you in trouble.
This also makes the PENN more effective against alien lifeforms, as the initial zap can get them before they have a chance to shake out the darts, but no less effective against structures, as not shaking out the darts means the ramp-up of damage can bring them down quickly.
Comments
That's my 2 cents. I don't really think having 2 primary attacks as long range isn't really necessary rather than mixing up the abilities the taser can produce instead such as my example.
I would like to point out that the trap device should also be limited similar to how Mines work. It would actually even replace mines in NS, but this also means no mine ladders....hmmm....
Also, I think that the battery cartridge should be removed and replaced. Unless you just plan on a limited charge on the same battery at all times. (I think that's what you're going with anyways) A good game to look at for tasers is Condemned: Criminal Origins.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sffDPj8htY0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sffDPj8htY0</a> (1:58)
Also having a taser would make your 3D artist work more on the alien models again, showing their skeleton as they are being electrified.
Also I liked the sequence of
LMG:ratatat
quick! switch to pistol
PISTOL: pow pow pow
quick! switch to knife
KNIFE: slash slash...
chomp, you're dead.
... in increasing stages of desperation.
The pistol with projectiles is better suited to that than a tricky, somewhat gimmicky taser probe weapon thing. I do like its complexity though.
That to me sounds crazy. How difficult would it be to do a knife and pistol that already exist? I would think that the argument is nullified by the experimental nature of this concept. Go ahead and try it if you want, thats why there is an ALPHA (right?) and eventually a beta... but please don't exclude the others and hope to integrate the two to save some time. Count on the knife and pistol, even as the back. Is it so hard?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to understand is that they outsource their modeling/skinning and animation. It is not a question of difficulty, because well, no one on the team can do it. They have to pay someone to do it every time.
EDIT: Hehe, I see Flayra lurking the thread right now : )
However, I logged in to direct you to another game developer (one who you probably already read), because the need for something more complex than a knife/pistol system seems to address the loss of creativity and complexity in modern game design.
<a href="http://iloapp.quelsolaar.com/blog/news?NewComment&post=52" target="_blank">http://iloapp.quelsolaar.com/blog/news?New...ent&post=52</a>
I think it'll help inspire your efforts, not just in developing NS2.
Perhaps welding on these weakpoints of marine buildings also gives a higher rate of repair.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is: maybe there needs to be more METHOD in taking down structures rather than flashier tools. Something which demands the player's attention. One of the GREATEST CONCEPTS in my opinion was the welder minigame idea; tracing welder lines on a keypad to unlock it. I think this kind of thinking needs to be applied to destroying structures.
As for the taser, I'm not sure whether a taser fits the NS marine world. Like others here, I see the marines being much more industrial and militaristic; tasers seem too passive to me. Others have suggested, making it a bought weapon rather than a default secondary weapon is more appealing. Though, I can appreciate that the taser offers A LOT in terms of gameplay (electrifying structures, powering structures, chains of electricity).
Only effective use for knife is unusually with w0 knifing safe restower. In combat it's quite useless, because rather than knifing a skulk, which has logner biterange than knife and blocking fireline of teammates, it's often better just start reloading lmg, cry meds ja evade bites. Even if you get 1 skulk killed another one is likely to come before reloading. At some point I even wondered to unbind knife or not. Still keeping it for now.
Personally I dont like too many functions and properties for weapons. Just 1 weapon in 1 slot and it works one way. Ofcourse I got nothing against using same weapon for different purposes.
[EDIT] Actually, additional animations probably wouldn't be needed if you ignore the panel thing I said. Weak points could just be exposed cables. I would have thought that adding hitboxes varying in damage susceptability wouldn't be as complicated as some of the taser functions like chains of electricity. Then again, I've never coded anything before. Regardless, I'm confident that the NS team will make whatever they do good.
Just to add, I'd like to see the welder having a more prominent role and have it come in as a decent melee weapon as people have suggested.
I read that we would be getting an alpha and tools as early as August/September. Then I see posts like this discussing absolute core game play issues that are obviously still way up in the air!
I recognize that it is the dev's game to do what they want with and release when they want, but I feel a bit deceived every time I read a news post displaying 'progress' and realize that how little they've actually accomplished toward core game development. I understand the engine probably took a good chunk of their time, but why then are we starting pre-orders now AND a promised 2009 release? I can't imagine anything beyond an alpha being released this year, yet alone the full game (which was promised in the FAQ at naturalselection2.com)! They might just squeak in a beta before the year turns, but at the current pace it seems unlikely.
I guess either way it doesn't matter, and I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm just curious how everyone else feels in regards to this.
And hey, maybe I'll get surprised by the small, dedicated team working a miracle and getting it out in '09 - who knows!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of agree with you, but a few things.
They never announced a date for the alpha or tools being released. They may have given a date they would try to get them out, but it was never really a set release date.
Again, they never "promised" a 2009 release date. Games get delayed all of the time, they just set a date they are going to try to make, if they can't get the game out by then, it get's delayed. It's not really that big of a deal.
It's frustrating because this game is the game I'm mostly looking forward to this year, even more so than Starcraft 2. I understand that delays are a good thing, because that gives the developers more time to improve the game.
I agree though, everytime I see a twiiter update, I'm a little upset, because it seems like not much has been done on the game, they keep bringing out these new concept weapons and ask for our input, when it would make more sense to bring out an alpha so people can actually try it out and then give constructive opinions.
I agree though, I think it's pretty much inevitable for a delay on this game. Unless they have a lot more work done then it seems, which I doubt.
Perplexing. You and others talk about this idea as if it's too "old", "outdated" or un-marine like. You cite other examples of advanced weaponry but then absolutely in your mind block off any concept of a marine "taser" being any different to our real life versions now. Isn't this a bizarre way to make an argument?
Also we need not forget that though this is an FPS, it's also a strategy game, it's about map control. Marines are not shock troopers they are all round warriors that need to both deal with alien life forms and re-gaining their territory before the infestation takes hold.
Without going too far into customising and classes, which would only bog this game down, it's only reasonable to expect what the marines take on board the ships and stations to be good, though maybe not perfect, for the initial situation, whatever is thrown at them, and sticking a knife and a pistol on them as well as their LMG is a bit counter-intuitive to this idea. As long as this weapon also has other practical uses, it could be a perfect start game item to mix things up
If something like the Taser Pistol is a viable, deadly weapon choice... it brings up the question why the other marine weapons are not energy based. It would make sense for the pistol to be sonic based, like the siege cannon is. Same technology just repurposed. The small size of the pistol could be just explained away by saying that anything larger (e.g. a rifle) would be too dangerous to operated by individual marines due to the destructive tendencies of sonic weaponry.
e.g.
Primary Fire: A loud noise is made from the pistol and instead of a bullet being shot, a small, damaging shockwave created where-ever the pistol is pointed at.
Secondary Fire: A low humming noise is created that creates distortion cone from the pistol. This causes things to tear themselves apart by vibration, dealing more damage the longer something is inside the field. This does more damage against structures.
EDIT: Added example.
<img src="http://www.p2pnet.net/images/wibul2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Taser bullets.... FITS IN TO NS2 NOW! LOL
But that's silly... probablly as silly as giving marines some TASER... We're not taking prisoners here! Are we going to get some cable ties as well for securing the enemy to some random pipe in the map... Sort of like how the onos-digest could take marines out of the fight for a period of time, that we could prevent some fade from moving for 4 minutes lol
Then maybe some marine, with bullets!! (and a gun!!), can come around and execute the alien prisoners! :P
--------------
What if we copy from that Jurassic park sequel and use poison darts instead? It makes more sense that some biological weapon could be more lethal (in a smaller form factor) and fast acting to shutdown the nerve system then some magical non-lethal TASER...
Then we don't need any crazy electric ghost buster fps-sucking animations on the enemy (and animations of them wiggling on the floor) and they just fall over and die 4-10 seconds after being darted (depending on how many darts got fired into it).
Maybe we can run into a hive... dart some eggs secretly and run out :P
It even works on ememy rts... we can "POISON" the biological enemy RT... The first couple of minutes and it produces half as much resources... if a gorge doesn't "HEAL" it then it just falls off the node... all dieseased and disgusting.
Ofcourse it doesn't have infinite ammunition... only a knife or an axe, or a knife axe, can have such a feature!!
<img src="http://www.knifethrowing.info/images/erlangen2007/img_7879_giant_knife.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Critique on the old side-arms:
Knife - seemed to take a similar amount of time to take down an rt as a skulks main weapon. Skulks have to worry about depleting their energy in case of counter attack while marines are just fine. In this light the knife seems bit overpowered. In actual melee fights, its damage and balance seemed fine and was even on par with the lmg when used well.
Pistol - was well balanced for players who did not script. Scripting was and is a problem in NS1 because it bypasses intent and creates a level of meta-gaming that separates new players from folks who are in fact cheating the system. The NS1 pistol is a monstrosity. If the devs want to keep it the way it is, they need to change it so that it's the same for scripters and non-scripters alike. I propose a one shot pistol that outright deals the same amount as a scripted pistol does now firing every last round. If we can't live with that as a community, then we have a problem with the old pistol and just don't want to admit it because of the advantage it was giving.
Taser - wha? One of the fantastic things about NS is its feel. In my early days of playing one word seemed to stand out from the descriptions given in the FAQ for NS and that was "gritty." Gritty. Hear me? I said GRITTY. A taser is not gritty. A taser will not be gritty. If you dunked a taser in tar and rolled it around in sand, it still wouldn't be gritty. It's smooth, sleek, and sophisticated and I'm pretty sure that port on the side is where you park your ipod. It makes the trade-off of forcefulness for elegance as described below.
In reality there is a formula we like to use (pardon the use of reality, but that is where they're grabbing the taser from), P = IV = RI^2. That equation really gets to the meat of what a taser is. There isn't a lot of power (P) in a taser because it trades off amp (I, the stuff that will cook you when you throw a toaster in your bath) for voltage (V, the stuff that messes with your nerves). A human's R value is something like 300-1000 Ohms, which for those of you following this conversation is quite a bit. All known portable devices have very limited power (P), and since the target will have at least the resistance ® of a human it means that the current through an alien would be enough to perhaps warm a toaster pastry at best.
The only conceivable way around this in reality is to use a decent sized capacitor and have that small power source charge it for several minutes which makes a ridiculous reload time at best. If one argues that in the future we'll have great small power sources, you can keep the taser and I'll make a rail gun. On a side note, a high amp taser is basically a welder so in theory you could combine these as well.
As far as stuns go: Stuns are great in reality but poorly conceived for gameplay. That is, the point of a game is for both parties to be actively having fun. Stuns are an "I win" button. During most battles people are having fun even if they're on the losing side. Stuns prevent the actions of one player and subsequently frustrate them, limiting the fun in the situation to be unidirectional. Control freaks and BDSM fetishists may absolutely love and adore these things, but they tend to be a turn off to the masses (stuns as well, ha ha) and I can cite several games that have this as an ongoing criticism of their battle system (WoW, TF2's scout's baseball attack, being in an onos and not being able to knife, etc.).
I like the idea of having a new weapon. How about we combine some of what I've said and have a mini rail gun. It takes a while to charge up just like a reload time, but can sit there charged in your inventory. You can bring it out and it'll shoot at any range for fairly high damage. Oh wait, that's the old pistol for scripters again. Honestly though, changing to this isn't a bad idea and it'll let the devs balance the damage for all players instead of leaving them in two categories.
I apologize for the scathing review, but I think it was necessary. We wouldn't bother writing and straining over this if we didn't love the game too.
I like the powering structures idea, but if you're shooting a stream of electricity (with or without any wire guides) what's supposed to stop it just short circuiting / breaking when shooting metal - or even when shooting aliens.
I'd be interested in seeing what happens with this if it's put in, so long as it looks a bit different...
This taser makes me want to vomit.
That gives me an idea, IPod replacement skin for the Taser anyone? They're both trademarked names anyway, lol.
How about a more appropriate weapon... say a 'plasma energy blaster' or some other name, something a bit more sci-fi and futuristic. It would have no ammo but instead rely on a regenerating charge taken from the environment over time (you could run out of charge by using it too much). This 'energy blaster' could work much like hl1's gauss gun, shooting one single beam, or charging up for say 10-20 seconds to release a massive beam of energy. It could also work as a close range weapon, with having a 'charged tip' that releases energy into anything that touches it... picture something similar to hl2's police baton. In addition by touching two or more of these tips together you could form an 'energy shield', potentially slowing, blocking, or damaging anything that touches it, but this will drain the energy quickly so time is limited.
Anyways, that is just my opinion. First post also.
It could also be a burst-shot weapon with delays. (Electrodes in-air and in re-firing) Imagine a well-timed shot that hooks a Lerk on one of these suckers. There are three possible things here to narrow the usage and make it less fearsome of a weapon for aliens; movement in general, movement out of range, and gradually increasing damage.
A question was made about what could be done for aliens. Maybe going for feeling rather than a pure gameplay change, there could be more indications of damage on structures. Dents, warping, pieces falling off and such, to make the biting experience much more visceral. :x
A good point was brought up that this addition is likely to be more time consuming than implementing a simple knife and pistol. Another point of worry for some is seeing gameplay elements potentially being axed for time constraints at this point. However, I don't actually see the knife and pistol as being particularly unique or iconic in the NS universe.
It's in fact a bit scary to me that some people liked knifing structures. To me, the knife was jerky and repetitive, with a flimsy indication of impact that made every hit on a structure feel like you were wasting your time. Knifeboxing Skulks on the other hand was fun and had a better feel. Like plush pinatas! Only they don't shower out candy. :(
The pistol was a nice little sniping automatic weapon. As it was the only gun in the game with any accuracy, I can say I've enjoyed using it. The times I've potshotted curious skulks that peeked out of vents are uncountable. For the same reason, I'd also be glad to see it gone. It did have utility in that having an alternate weapon to fall back on made encounters a bit more dynamic, but who is to say a taser won't have the same effect?
Do not confuse streamlined design with bland simplicity, or gameplay depth with unneeded complexity. Don't think there are no vagaries or subtleties in-between.
The uses of the taser as they turn up in game will not be all that hard to grasp. It's simple. Shoot things. Like structures and enemies.
I'll bring up one thing from another game that makes some reel in horror. Unified ammo in Deus Ex 2. You could say it simplified things. (Sometimes good.) But it limited your options, as you could no longer try a different weapon after an enduring engagement. (Depth that was important.)
I think this has the chance to simplify things. (Reduced amount of weapons. Potentially not good.) It also has the chance to add some not seen before utility. (More gameplay depth!) Keep in mind that the amount of variety that existed, still exists. You have a secondary and a melee. They're just different.
The risk of neutering gameplay with a compromise is something to be forewarned about, but for this addition, I see little problem.
Welcome to the Forum, a modern day REAL taser is used to subdue subjects. The "Taser" as described in the article is used to hurt them.
now i dont know what other weapons are planned but before you start knocking the tazer because its replacing the pistol and knife, maybe we should see what else is in store for this game.
from the details presented to us i could see the tazer add some dynamic team strategy for the marines. aint nothin wrong with that.
keep the news comin!
I think the problem might stem from the look of the taser. It needs to look like it's delivering a massive shock instead of going to cause static cling.
edit: instead of panels, what about blade-like prongs?
now i dont know what other weapons are planned but before you start knocking the tazer because its replacing the pistol and knife, maybe we should see what else is in store for this game.
from the details presented to us i could see the tazer add some dynamic team strategy for the marines. aint nothin wrong with that.
keep the news comin!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If all that's ever said to an artist is that their work is great and timeless, you'd end up with stick figures outside a house beneath a smiling sun for a very long time. Criticism is not only important but also heart wrenching. It's the bittersweet drink standing between you and greatness. You may not like that taste, but please trust that some of us have put some time into our thoughts on the subject.
I personally think the taser will destroy the gritty feel of the marines (even though the artwork shown seems to fit nicely with the other weaponry, nice job on that). It's a fighting style that better fits an NS version of the protoss than the marines. Though I'm also critical of the reasons they feel they need to leave the knife/pistol side arms. I feel they've been broken for a long time and simple fixes are within grasp if they think about the problem from a different angle.
That said, is there a "constructive" way to approach something you disagree with in your world? Have you always railed against your critics and editors when you wrote things for school? Their purpose is the same as the guy with the binoculars next to a sniper. They tell the sniper what he needs to know so that he can have a chance in hell of hitting the target because it's hard to do. Sometimes you listen to your critics and sometimes you don't, and you'll never know who's right until you pull that trigger. In the end it's better to know what other people are considering in case there's something you hadn't thought about. Making a great game is hard to do. Flayra brought this weapon to our attention because there's some debate about it which they're having difficulty resolving either internally or in their meetings.
now i dont know what other weapons are planned but before you start knocking the tazer because its replacing the pistol and knife, maybe we should see what else is in store for this game.
from the details presented to us i could see the tazer add some dynamic team strategy for the marines. aint nothin wrong with that.
keep the news comin!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with Kia. Flayra seems to be letting the community in on helping with the implementation of the Taser or even to put it in at all. When you end your News thread with "Thoughts?" and start a thread for responses i think he is expecting to see how the NS community reacts. Half the posts i read seem to dislike it. This thread is perfect for people to post not only why they do or dont like it but if they dont like it what they would do to fix the problems they put forth. They want one weapon instead of two (cut down on code/cost). It is the people who just go with the flow and see everything the devs put out as the greatest thing ever that in the end hurt the game. You will always have complaints about a topic, it is the percentage of good and bad complaints that matter. So far it is 50 -50 if not 60 - 40 towards no taser.
So, first we need to change the name.
I personally like "Portable Emitter for eNergized Nanites". And, yes, the PENN is mightier than the sword.. or knife.
Second, damage curve should be adjusted into more of a U shape. It starts with a (relatively) high burst as the nanites put out their stored charge loaded up from being in the PENN, this rapidly falls off as that charge is used up, but then the damage amount begins to ramp up again as contact with the target is maintained and the trigger held. The reasoning being that the nanites in the darts home into the path between them and build up speed in their destructive movement. When contact is broken between the PENN darts and the target, the damage falls back to the low levels, to resume building upon contact. Once the marine lets go of the trigger, the darts again build up power for an initial damage burst when the trigger is squeezed.
The point of this? Two really.
The first is to enable the PENN to still function as a shield, as pointed ou in the Dev thing, but to also give marines with skill the ability to use the PENN as a kind of electro-punch. You swing to hit the skulk, if your timing and aim is good, you do a blast of damage, the skulk backs off and you let go of the trigger, charging them up again for another swing.
Or, if you don't think you'll be able to hit them well enough, just hold down the trigger and do DoT. So long as you can keep the darts in contact, the damage will start to ramp up again.
The second is to simplify controls left click starts power between all darts, whether they're in the PENN or fired out. Right click fires the darts, two at a time.
This is a smoother learning curve for players. They'll get the PENN, pull the trigger (LMB) and see an initial loud crackle and then it ramp down to sizzling or whatever (or perhaps a charge guage will lower from red to yellow or whatever). Instantly understandable. Then when they hit RMB for their alt fire, they'll see the darts fly, and LMB performs exactly the same action, just with the darts at a distance. Again, simple to understand. As they get more into the game, they'll find the different ways to use it.. and figure out things like how the steady shield doesn't do as much damage as successive burst hits, but doesn't have the chance of missing that a burst hit does, which can leave you in trouble.
This also makes the PENN more effective against alien lifeforms, as the initial zap can get them before they have a chance to shake out the darts, but no less effective against structures, as not shaking out the darts means the ramp-up of damage can bring them down quickly.