I completely agree with removing the knife as the no-ammo anti-building weapon. It just doesn't make any sense to be whittling down an alien structure with a knife.
Don't criticize them too readily people, you don't know how this is meant to fit into the larger scheme. With the pistol out, maybe there'll be another "sniping" weapon. Or maybe "sniping" is meant to be out of the game and that fits into the larger plan.
Have some faith in the team, they know what they're doing.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I agree with the point that weapon design has little overlap with the monotony of destroying structures and what really matters is the stucture fragility and the immediate reward from doing it. You see so many games with really boring repetitive actions that people are willing to forever *if* the reward is good enough. So you either give the player a reward or you make a mini-game out of it but just changing the weapon characteristics will not change the RT hunting game much at all ( outside of the obvious rate of damage and range ).
On the other hand though, I do agree with merging the pistol and knife into a single weapon. It makes a lot of sense to me, and I personally don't care if it's a projectile weapon, a taster.. the style of weapon doesn't matter to me at all but the damage and usage mechanics do. This new taser will fill the nice previously occupied by both the knife and the pistol without being the sniper weapon, which it shouldn't be. The decision to have high rate sof damage versus high ranged accuracy should be a primary weapon decision.
<!--quoteo(post=1719142:date=Jul 24 2009, 12:37 PM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 24 2009, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't help but think that a lot of negativity focused on this new concept is being produced simply because of its name. People are linking the word Taser with the modern and well known form of the Taser, which is primarily used as a non-lethal law enforcement aide. You must understand that the name Taser in this circumstance is simply being used as a sort of nickname, and hence we should look at this concept without thinking of it as such that we already know (IE, a modern day taser device).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So true. Where did they ever mention wires? And yet people got all concerned about rendering wires and distances.
There is a such real world tech as wireless power you know.
<!--quoteo(post=1719154:date=Jul 24 2009, 03:42 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jul 24 2009, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a such real world tech as wireless power you know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah but not quite at the voltages we're talking about, but it's hardly relevant either way :p.
I find I must be the one NS player who doesn't mind knifing down a structure. It's not monotonous to me. In fact, there's little thrill knowing that the aliens know where I am and that I'm vulnerable, so it's only a matter of time before an altercation. And even without that, I'm helping my TEAM, which is a word I fear is becoming more and more lost as NS2 talk continues. The trend that worries me is the talk of an alien commander to bring aliens together to work more coherently, yet marines buy their own weaponry and choose to an extent their own upgrades. Isn't that backwards from when the TSA was team oriented with reliance on a commander, whilst Kharaa were individuals with hive mind tying it together?
I know to gain MASSIVE appeal, we're going to have to sacrifice the deep commitment to teamwork NS1 tried to achieve, but I fear some decisions push too far. I heard an excellent story last night on <a href="http://thestory.org/archive/search_media?review_state=published&start.query:record:list:date=2009-02-03%2023%3A59%3A59&start.range:record=max&end.query:record:list:date=2009-02-03%2000%3A00%3A00&end.range:record=min&month:int=2&year:int=2009" target="_blank">The Story</a>. It's a great listen from a developer who started with Apple, then Mindscape, and now does iPhone apps and games. One point in particular is that many games today are crap, rehashed Doom with different and bigger weapons. I agree. What are the real differences from infamous and Prototype? Anyway, the point is that we get too involved in the "whiz-bang" effect that we lose interesting, unique, and intuitive game play. I feel NS has bucked that curve, offering a very unique experience you can't find anywhere else (and with todays communities, it's sometimes hard to find here). For the sake of profitability, I'd hate to see that lost in NS2.
I don't regret my SE preorder, nor my consti gifts years ago. I don't think NS2 is going to tank, or not get released. I honestly don't trust Flayra's judgment fully though, what little I've seen of the haphazardness of some of the KEY decisions in the game's development. But I refuse to argue mindless points about a games strategy and implementation when we honestly dno't know any cohesive facts on tech and abilities. Will long time dedicated casual NSers like me get a decent say in NS2 with the "my way or no way" NS Pros and "CS is my favorite game ever" stock UWE needs to buy this game for commercial success? Probably not. But we've been overlooked since NS 2.0, and we still love this game, flaws and all. And that's probably how I'll feel about NS2.
PS: Anyone else find it ironic that the TSA logo in the NS2 forum logo is a PISTOL and KNIFE?
<!--quoteo(post=1719159:date=Jul 24 2009, 04:19 PM:name=radforChrist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (radforChrist @ Jul 24 2009, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719159"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will long time dedicated casual NSers like me get a decent say in NS2 with the "my way or no way" NS Pros and "CS is my favorite game ever" stock UWE needs to buy this game for commercial success? Probably not. But we've overlooked since NS 2.0, and we still love this game, flaws and all. And that's probably how I'll feel about NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trust me, competetive players are as much worried about their rights as you're on the pubber's share . It's just general worry, at least I can't point out anybody left out at this point.
Eveyone seems to have forgotton that NS2 will be highly moddable with LUA. No doubt somone will mod out the taser in place of the pistol and or knife and taser.. whatever combo. Then players will play on servers of their preferance and the prefared mods will spread more widely with popularity.
i seem to see a lot of assumptoin that this weapon will deal a great amount damage. I get the impression that a shot from the taser will do arount half damage to a skulk and not instantly. There is time to shake off and run out of range....
But, i think it should only replace the knife not the pistol. It has to replace the knife, NS2 is supposed to be about both sides evolving. What use is a knife on an alien anymore when its porpose before was for human encounter. They had to develope a new defence against non human..
I think it's great but I would say no to shield though.
<!--quoteo(post=1719162:date=Jul 24 2009, 05:59 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jul 24 2009, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eveyone seems to have forgotton that NS2 will be highly moddable with LUA. No doubt somone will mod out the taser in place of the pistol and or knife and taser.. whatever combo. Then players will play on servers of their preferance and the prefared mods will spread more widely with popularity.
i seem to see a lot of assumptoin that this weapon will deal a great amount damage. I get the impression that a shot from the taser will do arount half damage to a skulk and not instantly. There is time to shake off and run out of range....
But, i think it should only replace the knife not the pistol. It has to replace the knife, NS2 is supposed to be about both sides evolving. What use is a knife on an alien anymore when its porpose before was for human encounter. They had to develope a new defence against non human..
I think it's great but I would say no to shield though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking this. The HP Pistol I worked on a couple years back with a few others seems quality enough to be ported over to NS2 without any problems.
In NS1, the Pistol was the marine's most effective long range weapon, bar none. This doesn't really make any sense, given that most pistols are LESS accurate than rifles rather than more, but from a balance perspective it worked out fairly well. Not counting the pistol, the "melee oriented" aliens actually had more accurate and more effective long range weaponry than the marines did. The marines shined in mid-to-short range situations, basically everything just far enough away to be out of melee.
In NS2, the dev team wants to remove the role of the pistol as marines long-range weapon of choice, and swapping it for a limited range taser seems to be their chosen solution. Ok, all well and good so far, the pistol probably shouldn't be the primary long-range weapon anyway -- but after its gone, will the marines have some OTHER long range option to replace it? Or will they just pretend to be the ranged team while getting sniped by skulks and lerks from too far away to shoot back?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Methinks we would've had a better reception for our pistol/knife solution if we described it like this... <a href="http://bit.ly/WVCH7" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/WVCH7</a> #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1719167:date=Jul 24 2009, 12:25 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cxwf @ Jul 24 2009, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A point on ranged accuracy:
In NS1, the Pistol was the marine's most effective long range weapon, bar none. This doesn't really make any sense, given that most pistols are LESS accurate than rifles rather than more, but from a balance perspective it worked out fairly well. Not counting the pistol, the "melee oriented" aliens actually had more accurate and more effective long range weaponry than the marines did. The marines shined in mid-to-short range situations, basically everything just far enough away to be out of melee.
In NS2, the dev team wants to remove the role of the pistol as marines long-range weapon of choice, and swapping it for a limited range taser seems to be their chosen solution. Ok, all well and good so far, the pistol probably shouldn't be the primary long-range weapon anyway -- but after its gone, will the marines have some OTHER long range option to replace it? Or will they just pretend to be the ranged team while getting sniped by skulks and lerks from too far away to shoot back?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know how the devs will "fix" this... They'll just make it a mapping guideline that NS2 isn't designed for anything but close quarter fighting. There... it didn't require any work at all... just a guideline that everyone will ignore.
Ofcourse their will be siege maps with giant jetpack rooms and of course the fades will be acid-rocket-sniping from a million miles away... and of course all the marine team will be able to do is hose the area with hmgs for 20 minutes. I mean no one pulled out a pistol in those situations anyway. I'm describing NS1 as it exists today.
BTW WHAT IS THE POINT OF A JETPACK IF THEIR'S NO GIANT AREAS TO FLY THROUGH... remove the JP from NS2 now and save more money and time devs :P ... obviously if marines want to fly then they should just join the alien team... Marines loooove walking long distances... even better in a heavy when it takes longer to get somewhere xD
Perhaps they can have a sniper scope attachment so that when you used the "Classic" mode of not aiming with anything but a crosshair in the center of the screen, that it worked like a HMG would... but when you go into the scope mode that the gun goes into burst mode for longer range accuracy. Basically it fires off 20 rounds at ultra super insane speed so that a target at longer distance is more likely to die from the 1 aimed shot... The reason for this is obvious that if the enemy is that far away... what is the point in aiming CAREFULLY (taking your time) at them with a scope if they can survive your precision shooting... they need to die from that (or be severely hurt so your teams can finish them off with conventional HMG spam). So just to balance it we put in a lot of recoil and delay for the follow up shot... There we just turned a machine gun into a sniper rifle (when a sniper rifle is needed).
We don't even need to model a sniper scope... the is the future... you zoom in the main game hud and draw a 2D sprite crosshair on it (like hl2 suit-zoom)... wow no effort involved developers... i know how lazy you are lol
And when you finally run out of ammo... you flip out your trusty phaser and start zapping aliens Picard style. ZZZZAAAP !!! ZZZZZAAAPPPP !!!
Make sure you got some beers handy... NS2 is hilarious! :P
<!--quoteo(post=1719169:date=Jul 24 2009, 09:36 AM:name=Rzr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rzr @ Jul 24 2009, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Methinks you´re making things worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only if a lot of people have poor perspective and get riled up easily and feel like their opinion is warranted... oh, wait, you might be right. :(
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Methinks we would've had a better reception for our pistol/knife solution if we described it like this... <a href="http://bit.ly/WVCH7" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/WVCH7</a> #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The name Arc-Gun is better for sure. Your version doesn't <i>look</i> like a gun, it looks like a taser, a non-violent weapon.
Also I don't think the gameplay related concerns would have gone away either. Granted, those would be pickup by a fewer number and a simple disagreement about how the gameplay should go will be influenced through playtesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1719175:date=Jul 24 2009, 07:25 PM:name=)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( @ Jul 24 2009, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Methinks we would've had a better reception for our pistol/knife solution if we described it like this... <a href="http://bit.ly/WVCH7" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/WVCH7</a> #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1719143:date=Jul 24 2009, 12:41 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Jul 24 2009, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a side note, I also felt the "electrifying" of buildings was a bit of a stretch especially without a recharge time on each zap. If your proposed circuit is to go from the rt, to the alien, and then the floor; then it should be constantly shorting out as it's in contact with the floor and have no effect on a jumping alien or one standing on top of it. You could have it covered with electrodes for the desired effect, but it wouldn't look all "shocky." Static charge also changes nearby O2 into O3 which is more commonly known as smog so the entire area should favor the aliens because no one should be able to see let alone breathe with that much static nearby. I see the taser as an extrapolation on this fantasy of how electricity works. Electricity is not magic. You shouldn't use it in place of magic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make some good points about the 'gritty' feel. The same criticisms have been fielded towards the Terrans in Starcraft 2, following the idea that the terran buildings and units need to have this sort of scrappy, rusty, beat-up look and feel. But keep in mind feel is completely subjective to the player.
Mostly I just wanted to point that that O3 is a component of smog, but it's not the only thing in it. You get smog when exhaust, smoke, and all the other urban emissions form a kind of chemical stew above a city, and the O3 is formed by photochemical reactions of Nitrous Oxides, Sulfur Oxides, etc. So there would be O3 in the air, but it def. wouldn't be smog. Our rines (and aliens?) would just have some painful respiration...
I do have a concern with the taser. After you shoot an alien with the transponders, do you still have to aim to kill it with electricity? If not, that sort of removes a big part of combat in NS. You have to be able to track skulks or whatever while they're trying to dodge and still bite you. The transponder idea seems as if it'd just be the shotgun; one shot = one kill, except that the damage is dealt over time instead of instantly. You still wouldn't have to track the alien after the initial shot. On my first impression, it seems like more restrictions are required if the transponder mode is used on aliens.
The devs implied that the weapon would be best used against structures at least twice:
<b>Quote from NS2 Dev Team:</b><i> The transponders both do damage when they hit and also stick in for awhile (either for a certain amount of time or perhaps fall off relatively quickly from moving targets and <b>stay for a long time in stationary ones</b>). By charging the primary attack, you can send electricity through the transponders, doing damage to one or more targets in range. This would start as a harmless light electric shock, but over time would grow to massive damage. This makes it <b>ideal for taking down structures</b> (high hit points, stationary).</i>
Fast moving aliens would either dislodge the transponders or make it hard for the marine to get a second set in after the first set falls off. The initial low damage would probably make it useless in close combat, as a helpless marine usually lasts 2-4 seconds in a room with an alien. That's good in my opinion: the taser is supposed to be the secondary weapon, not something you use to kill an alien by itself. It doesn't seem to be overpowered.
All in all, I like it. I think the design is a little too.... baton-ish. I think it should have a proper handle and trigger and over-all look more like a gun. I realize it's hard to balance between the gun look and the melee-weapon look, but I think it went too melee-weapon. I love the concept and I think this is a good solution for the problem you guys are trying to solve. I think it'll definitely work given more polishing/playtesting.
Now, onto the poorly thought out critiques on why the taser wouldn't work.
<b>Quote from Kiopaen:</b><i> In reality there is a formula we like to use (pardon the use of reality, but that is where they're grabbing the taser from), P = IV = RI^2. That equation really gets to the meat of what a taser is. There isn't a lot of power (P) in a taser because it trades off amp (I, the stuff that will cook you when you throw a toaster in your bath) for voltage (V, the stuff that messes with your nerves). A human's R value is something like 300-1000 Ohms, which for those of you following this conversation is quite a bit. All known portable devices have very limited power (P), and since the target will have at least the resistance ® of a human it means that the current through an alien would be enough to perhaps warm a toaster pastry at best.</i>
The thing that pisses me off about why people are complaining how the taser would be ineffective is that they are comparing it to real-life tasers. Real-life tasers are designed to stun and incapacitate. That is their design and purpose and it is almost impossible to kill someone with a taser that is built within regulations. This is for a reason. They are made to be an alternative to the very lethal fire-arm.
It is very easy to kill a human being using electricity. Tasers do not kill people because they are high voltage, low current, as mentioned above. The thing that kills you is current. Voltage does not.
Consider this: it takes 15 mili-amps to stop the heart. A toaster in a bathtub can kill you. They discharge about 70 mili-amps. It is very easy to make a lethal taser.
<b>Quote:</b><i> The only conceivable way around this in reality is to use a decent sized capacitor and have that small power source charge it for several minutes which makes a ridiculous reload time at best. If one argues that in the future we'll have great small power sources, you can keep the taser and I'll make a rail gun. On a side note, a high amp taser is basically a welder so in theory you could combine these as well.</i>
Precisely. It's the future. Nanites are a great excuse.
<b>Quote:</b><i> As far as stuns go: Stuns are great in reality but poorly conceived for gameplay. That is, the point of a game is for both parties to be actively having fun. Stuns are an "I win" button. During most battles people are having fun even if they're on the losing side. Stuns prevent the actions of one player and subsequently frustrate them, limiting the fun in the situation to be unidirectional. Control freaks and BDSM fetishists may absolutely love and adore these things, but they tend to be a turn off to the masses (stuns as well, ha ha) and I can cite several games that have this as an ongoing criticism of their battle system (WoW, TF2's scout's baseball attack, being in an onos and not being able to knife, etc.).</i>
I don't think the original article mentioned any where that the taser would stun. Only that it would deal damage. In fact, I just checked it to make sure. No where do the devs state or imply that the taser would stun aliens. I think the people who are posting are simply building off each other and getting off-track.
<b>Bottom-line/TLDR:</b>
I think the taser is a great idea; it looks cool, and will solve some problems in NS with its design.
Tasers do not necessarily have to stun/subdue. They can be made to be very lethal easily, it's just that today's tasers are made non-lethal for a reason.
Electricity guns are not stun guns. They are lethal weapons. Stop complaining.
How about shooting (explosive rounds "i like the hello gorgy boom idea", Or toxic pods "Sick me ? " Or "Cryogenic rounds "Zoo of frozen kharaa!", Flame rounds "hahah look a the burning skulk running around".
Imo a taser can be very cool. I can see my self in a lsing marine game and organising everyone to taze the first onos that gets in the room. Much more effective then a knife.
Although tazing buildings= a no go for me i mean arent they usually grounded or attached to an iron work space. AKA tazer urself
<!--quoteo(post=1719091:date=Jul 24 2009, 03:48 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 24 2009, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very cool idea we can apply to the LMG... i mean then we don't need to have some pesky mines model created which can cut costs and accelerate delivery of NS2 OMFG!!! You can just throw your weapon away as a last minute move and kill anything that walks over it. Maybe their can be some safety mode that it doesn't blow if another marine goes to pick it up because they actually need it for shooting purposes...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We need an anti-knicker twisting device, stat.
<!--quoteo(post=1719069:date=Jul 24 2009, 01:33 AM:name=CHAOS100)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CHAOS100 @ Jul 24 2009, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks. I couldn't have figured that out without your expert help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people clearly need the "expert help", the moron level on this thread has almost been turned up to 11, and I'm afraid your stance of flying in the face of what was ACTUALLY SAID in favour of making up some alternate universe where this weapon was described as non-lethal has only contributed to that level.
<!--quoteo(post=1719109:date=Jul 24 2009, 06:34 AM:name=Nordom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nordom @ Jul 24 2009, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but it would see a little silly to mean that you can kill alien structure half as high as a space marine maybe even taller with a taser, when it would do only minimalistic damage to living aliens, when compared with other weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I rest my case...
<!--quoteo(post=1719010:date=Jul 23 2009, 09:59 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Jul 23 2009, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If all that's ever said to an artist is that their work is great and timeless, you'd end up with stick figures outside a house beneath a smiling sun for a very long time. Criticism is not only important but also heart wrenching.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very poetic, also not entirely true. Some people, usually those spending their time on a project of love that they didn't even know would see the light of day might I add, actually have some kind of internal vetting system that allows them to think to a large degree about the flaws and benefits of what they're doing without criticism.
Some criticism here has been useful because it's been from a different perspective, perspectives I'd be surprised if the the designers would have had time to consider. But most of the criticism is lazy, uninformed and even plain stupid; and the idea that those base level criticisms haven't already been thought about (or would be thought about) as a matter of course for a normal professional is just an insult really.
<!--quoteo(post=1719162:date=Jul 24 2009, 10:59 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jul 24 2009, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's great but I would say no to shield though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree. Marines should never be given a shield. I'd hate to see an alien run away from a marine standing a corner with his taser going.
The use of the transponders I think should be an alternative for the Marine, not a necessity for dealing damage. This is because in order to fulfill the pistol side of this hybrid, the weapon must be reasonably effective and simple to use. However we also want to create a new experience to the weapon to avoid simply mashing a pistol and a knife together to form this weapon. For these reasons I propose three modes of the weapon.
Primary Mode (Pistol): Simple to use and easy to access. It fires an electricity bolt at the desired target. The damage is instant and relatively effective. The range is short-medium, this promotes the weapon to be used as the player retreats or is using it for light defense when using his primary weapon is undesirable for the circumstances or unusable for different reasons (such as a lack of ammo). The bolt is perfectly accurate (perhaps a slight deviation could be implemented) to increase the reliability of the weapon. The Rate of Fire is restricted but not by much.
Secondary Mode(Transponders): Designed for destroying structures, and as a skill-based alternative to the Primary Mode. This mode fires WIRED-transponders from the "Taser" at the target. The transponders do not hit instantly and travel at a medium pace. When the transponders attach to a target, the Marine then electrifies it. The initial damage is very low but constant and increases at a reasonable rate. This weapon fulfills the role of the knife in terms of destroying alien structures. The Marine binds to the structure (literally) and is very vulnerable to attack. However the Marine is destroying the structure in the most efficient way, no ammo being used and high damage. This is exactly how the knife worked in this context. It is important to note that the range of the transponders is limited (so that attacking structures from excessive distances is not possible) and the wire cannot bend around corners. This mode also has a skill level attached to it as it can be used against Aliens. Due to the low speed of the Transponders, Marines will have to be good at predicting an Aliens movements, as well as aiming. The wire is broken if the target moves out of the fairly low range or moves around a sharp bend that could potentially snap the wire. Marines could "gang up" on a target with their transponders, but the likelyhood of this happening against an Alien is minimal because of their fast movement speeds. However multiple Marines attacking a structure with this could be a very useful teamplay strategy. (As someone mentioned, could "hive rushes" be a problem?)
Melee Mode (Knife): Nothing much to say. The Marine activates the "Taser" and jabs it forward. The Taser emits reasonable damage at a constant rate for as long as the target is in its close range.
Visually I think the Taser looks good. However a further bending of the handle may serve to remedy some complaints over its non-lethal visuals.
So that's my idea of how it could be implemented I hope I helped in some way!
I strongly disagree with most forms of stun being in an FPS. The mechanic is just damn frustrating with a generally low skill cap, and why it is used outside of RPGs is beyond me. I hope the wording on the taser doesn't actually suggest a form of CC.
<!--quoteo(post=1719228:date=Jul 25 2009, 12:57 AM:name=VenApple)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VenApple @ Jul 25 2009, 12:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I strongly disagree with most forms of stun being in an FPS. The mechanic is just damn frustrating with a generally low skill cap, and why it is used outside of RPGs is beyond me. I hope the wording on the taser doesn't actually suggest a form of CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learn to read. Open up the front page, press CTRL+F, type "stun" and see the result turn up as "not found" or "0 of 0".
<!--quoteo(post=1719226:date=Jul 25 2009, 12:43 AM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 25 2009, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They cannot latch onto an Onos (Avoids ganging up and helps the atmosphere).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not entirely sure why people are hung up on this idea that the weapon would be some kind of kill switch against Onos, and therefore a ban from being used against it hard coded in to the game.
For a start the question is still up in the air as to how "powerful" the onos will be by comparison to NS1, in order to make it a more rewarding experience, and one has to assume therefore not as costly to lose. The second is why on earth anyone thinks the devs would make it so that 3 or 4 marines concentrating on an Onos would choose to do so with an electric discharge weapon rather than heavy machine guns and GLs?
<!--quoteo(post=1719233:date=Jul 25 2009, 10:17 AM:name=niaccurshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (niaccurshi @ Jul 25 2009, 10:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not entirely sure why people are hung up on this idea that the weapon would be some kind of kill switch against Onos, and therefore a ban from being used against it hard coded in to the game.
For a start the question is still up in the air as to how "powerful" the onos will be by comparison to NS1, in order to make it a more rewarding experience, and one has to assume therefore not as costly to lose. The second is why on earth anyone thinks the devs would make it so that 3 or 4 marines concentrating on an Onos would choose to do so with an electric discharge weapon rather than heavy machine guns and GLs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. Absolutely. I thought about this a little more. Perhaps even several marines latching onto an Onos could be a viable tactic. If the damage is very small to begin with, and then increases at a reasonable rate. The Marines have a decision to make. Mass electrocution of the Onos may scare it, or even kill it. However the time taken for the constant damage to increase may be too much given the situation. The Marines would be vulnerable during this stage, not just from the Onos, but from other aliens (that should be attacking with the Onos). If the Marines have more advanced weapons, attacking the Onos with these weapons will be far more effective than electrocution. Perhaps even this ganging-up tactic will help Marines try to kill an Onos if they have not managed to advance their weapons sufficiently. This tactic could be quite interesting. Similarly, if one Marine decides to latch onto the Onos while the Onos is fighting off other Marines. The Onos must prioritise its targets. If this one Marine stays alive then the electrical damage may increase to a point where the Onos has to retreat.
Comments
Don't criticize them too readily people, you don't know how this is meant to fit into the larger scheme. With the pistol out, maybe there'll be another "sniping" weapon. Or maybe "sniping" is meant to be out of the game and that fits into the larger plan.
Have some faith in the team, they know what they're doing.
On the other hand though, I do agree with merging the pistol and knife into a single weapon. It makes a lot of sense to me, and I personally don't care if it's a projectile weapon, a taster.. the style of weapon doesn't matter to me at all but the damage and usage mechanics do. This new taser will fill the nice previously occupied by both the knife and the pistol without being the sniper weapon, which it shouldn't be. The decision to have high rate sof damage versus high ranged accuracy should be a primary weapon decision.
So true. Where did they ever mention wires? And yet people got all concerned about rendering wires and distances.
There is a such real world tech as wireless power you know.
yeah but not quite at the voltages we're talking about, but it's hardly relevant either way :p.
I know to gain MASSIVE appeal, we're going to have to sacrifice the deep commitment to teamwork NS1 tried to achieve, but I fear some decisions push too far. I heard an excellent story last night on <a href="http://thestory.org/archive/search_media?review_state=published&start.query:record:list:date=2009-02-03%2023%3A59%3A59&start.range:record=max&end.query:record:list:date=2009-02-03%2000%3A00%3A00&end.range:record=min&month:int=2&year:int=2009" target="_blank">The Story</a>. It's a great listen from a developer who started with Apple, then Mindscape, and now does iPhone apps and games. One point in particular is that many games today are crap, rehashed Doom with different and bigger weapons. I agree. What are the real differences from infamous and Prototype? Anyway, the point is that we get too involved in the "whiz-bang" effect that we lose interesting, unique, and intuitive game play. I feel NS has bucked that curve, offering a very unique experience you can't find anywhere else (and with todays communities, it's sometimes hard to find here). For the sake of profitability, I'd hate to see that lost in NS2.
I don't regret my SE preorder, nor my consti gifts years ago. I don't think NS2 is going to tank, or not get released. I honestly don't trust Flayra's judgment fully though, what little I've seen of the haphazardness of some of the KEY decisions in the game's development. But I refuse to argue mindless points about a games strategy and implementation when we honestly dno't know any cohesive facts on tech and abilities. Will long time dedicated casual NSers like me get a decent say in NS2 with the "my way or no way" NS Pros and "CS is my favorite game ever" stock UWE needs to buy this game for commercial success? Probably not. But we've been overlooked since NS 2.0, and we still love this game, flaws and all. And that's probably how I'll feel about NS2.
PS: Anyone else find it ironic that the TSA logo in the NS2 forum logo is a PISTOL and KNIFE?
Trust me, competetive players are as much worried about their rights as you're on the pubber's share . It's just general worry, at least I can't point out anybody left out at this point.
No doubt somone will mod out the taser in place of the pistol and or knife and taser.. whatever combo.
Then players will play on servers of their preferance and the prefared mods will spread more widely with popularity.
i seem to see a lot of assumptoin that this weapon will deal a great amount damage.
I get the impression that a shot from the taser will do arount half damage to a skulk and not instantly.
There is time to shake off and run out of range....
But, i think it should only replace the knife not the pistol.
It has to replace the knife, NS2 is supposed to be about both sides evolving.
What use is a knife on an alien anymore when its porpose before was for human encounter.
They had to develope a new defence against non human..
I think it's great but I would say no to shield though.
All who is screaming that this taser is cool just don't know how to use pistol and knife...
<3
No doubt somone will mod out the taser in place of the pistol and or knife and taser.. whatever combo.
Then players will play on servers of their preferance and the prefared mods will spread more widely with popularity.
i seem to see a lot of assumptoin that this weapon will deal a great amount damage.
I get the impression that a shot from the taser will do arount half damage to a skulk and not instantly.
There is time to shake off and run out of range....
But, i think it should only replace the knife not the pistol.
It has to replace the knife, NS2 is supposed to be about both sides evolving.
What use is a knife on an alien anymore when its porpose before was for human encounter.
They had to develope a new defence against non human..
I think it's great but I would say no to shield though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking this. The HP Pistol I worked on a couple years back with a few others seems quality enough to be ported over to NS2 without any problems.
In NS1, the Pistol was the marine's most effective long range weapon, bar none. This doesn't really make any sense, given that most pistols are LESS accurate than rifles rather than more, but from a balance perspective it worked out fairly well. Not counting the pistol, the "melee oriented" aliens actually had more accurate and more effective long range weaponry than the marines did. The marines shined in mid-to-short range situations, basically everything just far enough away to be out of melee.
In NS2, the dev team wants to remove the role of the pistol as marines long-range weapon of choice, and swapping it for a limited range taser seems to be their chosen solution. Ok, all well and good so far, the pistol probably shouldn't be the primary long-range weapon anyway -- but after its gone, will the marines have some OTHER long range option to replace it? Or will they just pretend to be the ranged team while getting sniped by skulks and lerks from too far away to shoot back?
Methinks you´re making things worse.
In NS1, the Pistol was the marine's most effective long range weapon, bar none. This doesn't really make any sense, given that most pistols are LESS accurate than rifles rather than more, but from a balance perspective it worked out fairly well. Not counting the pistol, the "melee oriented" aliens actually had more accurate and more effective long range weaponry than the marines did. The marines shined in mid-to-short range situations, basically everything just far enough away to be out of melee.
In NS2, the dev team wants to remove the role of the pistol as marines long-range weapon of choice, and swapping it for a limited range taser seems to be their chosen solution. Ok, all well and good so far, the pistol probably shouldn't be the primary long-range weapon anyway -- but after its gone, will the marines have some OTHER long range option to replace it? Or will they just pretend to be the ranged team while getting sniped by skulks and lerks from too far away to shoot back?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know how the devs will "fix" this... They'll just make it a mapping guideline that NS2 isn't designed for anything but close quarter fighting. There... it didn't require any work at all... just a guideline that everyone will ignore.
Ofcourse their will be siege maps with giant jetpack rooms and of course the fades will be acid-rocket-sniping from a million miles away... and of course all the marine team will be able to do is hose the area with hmgs for 20 minutes. I mean no one pulled out a pistol in those situations anyway. I'm describing NS1 as it exists today.
BTW WHAT IS THE POINT OF A JETPACK IF THEIR'S NO GIANT AREAS TO FLY THROUGH... remove the JP from NS2 now and save more money and time devs :P ... obviously if marines want to fly then they should just join the alien team... Marines loooove walking long distances... even better in a heavy when it takes longer to get somewhere xD
Perhaps they can have a sniper scope attachment so that when you used the "Classic" mode of not aiming with anything but a crosshair in the center of the screen, that it worked like a HMG would... but when you go into the scope mode that the gun goes into burst mode for longer range accuracy. Basically it fires off 20 rounds at ultra super insane speed so that a target at longer distance is more likely to die from the 1 aimed shot... The reason for this is obvious that if the enemy is that far away... what is the point in aiming CAREFULLY (taking your time) at them with a scope if they can survive your precision shooting... they need to die from that (or be severely hurt so your teams can finish them off with conventional HMG spam). So just to balance it we put in a lot of recoil and delay for the follow up shot... There we just turned a machine gun into a sniper rifle (when a sniper rifle is needed).
We don't even need to model a sniper scope... the is the future... you zoom in the main game hud and draw a 2D sprite crosshair on it (like hl2 suit-zoom)... wow no effort involved developers... i know how lazy you are lol
And when you finally run out of ammo... you flip out your trusty phaser and start zapping aliens Picard style. ZZZZAAAP !!! ZZZZZAAAPPPP !!!
Make sure you got some beers handy... NS2 is hilarious! :P
Only if a lot of people have poor perspective and get riled up easily and feel like their opinion is warranted... oh, wait, you might be right. :(
The name Arc-Gun is better for sure. Your version doesn't <i>look</i> like a gun, it looks like a taser, a non-violent weapon.
Also I don't think the gameplay related concerns would have gone away either. Granted, those would be pickup by a fewer number and a simple disagreement about how the gameplay should go will be influenced through playtesting.
But then it's just a quake 3 lightning gun.
You make some good points about the 'gritty' feel. The same criticisms have been fielded towards the Terrans in Starcraft 2, following the idea that the terran buildings and units need to have this sort of scrappy, rusty, beat-up look and feel. But keep in mind feel is completely subjective to the player.
Mostly I just wanted to point that that O3 is a component of smog, but it's not the only thing in it. You get smog when exhaust, smoke, and all the other urban emissions form a kind of chemical stew above a city, and the O3 is formed by photochemical reactions of Nitrous Oxides, Sulfur Oxides, etc. So there would be O3 in the air, but it def. wouldn't be smog. Our rines (and aliens?) would just have some painful respiration...
The devs implied that the weapon would be best used against structures at least twice:
<b>Quote from NS2 Dev Team:</b><i>
The transponders both do damage when they hit and also stick in for awhile (either for a certain amount of time or perhaps fall off relatively quickly from moving targets and <b>stay for a long time in stationary ones</b>). By charging the primary attack, you can send electricity through the transponders, doing damage to one or more targets in range. This would start as a harmless light electric shock, but over time would grow to massive damage. This makes it <b>ideal for taking down structures</b> (high hit points, stationary).</i>
Fast moving aliens would either dislodge the transponders or make it hard for the marine to get a second set in after the first set falls off. The initial low damage would probably make it useless in close combat, as a helpless marine usually lasts 2-4 seconds in a room with an alien. That's good in my opinion: the taser is supposed to be the secondary weapon, not something you use to kill an alien by itself. It doesn't seem to be overpowered.
All in all, I like it. I think the design is a little too.... baton-ish. I think it should have a proper handle and trigger and over-all look more like a gun. I realize it's hard to balance between the gun look and the melee-weapon look, but I think it went too melee-weapon. I love the concept and I think this is a good solution for the problem you guys are trying to solve. I think it'll definitely work given more polishing/playtesting.
Now, onto the poorly thought out critiques on why the taser wouldn't work.
<b>Quote from Kiopaen:</b><i>
In reality there is a formula we like to use (pardon the use of reality, but that is where they're grabbing the taser from), P = IV = RI^2. That equation really gets to the meat of what a taser is. There isn't a lot of power (P) in a taser because it trades off amp (I, the stuff that will cook you when you throw a toaster in your bath) for voltage (V, the stuff that messes with your nerves). A human's R value is something like 300-1000 Ohms, which for those of you following this conversation is quite a bit. All known portable devices have very limited power (P), and since the target will have at least the resistance ® of a human it means that the current through an alien would be enough to perhaps warm a toaster pastry at best.</i>
The thing that pisses me off about why people are complaining how the taser would be ineffective is that they are comparing it to real-life tasers. Real-life tasers are designed to stun and incapacitate. That is their design and purpose and it is almost impossible to kill someone with a taser that is built within regulations. This is for a reason. They are made to be an alternative to the very lethal fire-arm.
It is very easy to kill a human being using electricity. Tasers do not kill people because they are high voltage, low current, as mentioned above. The thing that kills you is current. Voltage does not.
Consider this: it takes 15 mili-amps to stop the heart. A toaster in a bathtub can kill you. They discharge about 70 mili-amps. It is very easy to make a lethal taser.
<b>Quote:</b><i>
The only conceivable way around this in reality is to use a decent sized capacitor and have that small power source charge it for several minutes which makes a ridiculous reload time at best. If one argues that in the future we'll have great small power sources, you can keep the taser and I'll make a rail gun. On a side note, a high amp taser is basically a welder so in theory you could combine these as well.</i>
Precisely. It's the future. Nanites are a great excuse.
<b>Quote:</b><i>
As far as stuns go: Stuns are great in reality but poorly conceived for gameplay. That is, the point of a game is for both parties to be actively having fun. Stuns are an "I win" button. During most battles people are having fun even if they're on the losing side. Stuns prevent the actions of one player and subsequently frustrate them, limiting the fun in the situation to be unidirectional. Control freaks and BDSM fetishists may absolutely love and adore these things, but they tend to be a turn off to the masses (stuns as well, ha ha) and I can cite several games that have this as an ongoing criticism of their battle system (WoW, TF2's scout's baseball attack, being in an onos and not being able to knife, etc.).</i>
I don't think the original article mentioned any where that the taser would stun. Only that it would deal damage. In fact, I just checked it to make sure. No where do the devs state or imply that the taser would stun aliens. I think the people who are posting are simply building off each other and getting off-track.
<b>Bottom-line/TLDR:</b>
I think the taser is a great idea; it looks cool, and will solve some problems in NS with its design.
Tasers do not necessarily have to stun/subdue. They can be made to be very lethal easily, it's just that today's tasers are made non-lethal for a reason.
Electricity guns are not stun guns. They are lethal weapons. Stop complaining.
Imo a taser can be very cool. I can see my self in a lsing marine game and organising everyone to taze the first onos that gets in the room. Much more effective then a knife.
Although tazing buildings= a no go for me i mean arent they usually grounded or attached to an iron work space. AKA tazer urself
Ohwell ill see in game.
We need an anti-knicker twisting device, stat.
<!--quoteo(post=1719069:date=Jul 24 2009, 01:33 AM:name=CHAOS100)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CHAOS100 @ Jul 24 2009, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks. I couldn't have figured that out without your expert help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people clearly need the "expert help", the moron level on this thread has almost been turned up to 11, and I'm afraid your stance of flying in the face of what was ACTUALLY SAID in favour of making up some alternate universe where this weapon was described as non-lethal has only contributed to that level.
<!--quoteo(post=1719109:date=Jul 24 2009, 06:34 AM:name=Nordom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nordom @ Jul 24 2009, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but it would see a little silly to mean that you can kill alien structure half as high as a space marine maybe even taller with a taser, when it would do only minimalistic damage to living aliens, when compared with other weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I rest my case...
<!--quoteo(post=1719010:date=Jul 23 2009, 09:59 PM:name=Kiopaen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kiopaen @ Jul 23 2009, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1719010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If all that's ever said to an artist is that their work is great and timeless, you'd end up with stick figures outside a house beneath a smiling sun for a very long time. Criticism is not only important but also heart wrenching.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very poetic, also not entirely true. Some people, usually those spending their time on a project of love that they didn't even know would see the light of day might I add, actually have some kind of internal vetting system that allows them to think to a large degree about the flaws and benefits of what they're doing without criticism.
Some criticism here has been useful because it's been from a different perspective, perspectives I'd be surprised if the the designers would have had time to consider. But most of the criticism is lazy, uninformed and even plain stupid; and the idea that those base level criticisms haven't already been thought about (or would be thought about) as a matter of course for a normal professional is just an insult really.
Agree. Marines should never be given a shield. I'd hate to see an alien run away from a marine standing a corner with his taser going.
<img src="http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/07/Arc_Gun_clean.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Primary Mode (Pistol): Simple to use and easy to access. It fires an electricity bolt at the desired target. The damage is instant and relatively effective. The range is short-medium, this promotes the weapon to be used as the player retreats or is using it for light defense when using his primary weapon is undesirable for the circumstances or unusable for different reasons (such as a lack of ammo). The bolt is perfectly accurate (perhaps a slight deviation could be implemented) to increase the reliability of the weapon. The Rate of Fire is restricted but not by much.
Secondary Mode(Transponders): Designed for destroying structures, and as a skill-based alternative to the Primary Mode. This mode fires WIRED-transponders from the "Taser" at the target. The transponders do not hit instantly and travel at a medium pace. When the transponders attach to a target, the Marine then electrifies it. The initial damage is very low but constant and increases at a reasonable rate. This weapon fulfills the role of the knife in terms of destroying alien structures. The Marine binds to the structure (literally) and is very vulnerable to attack. However the Marine is destroying the structure in the most efficient way, no ammo being used and high damage. This is exactly how the knife worked in this context. It is important to note that the range of the transponders is limited (so that attacking structures from excessive distances is not possible) and the wire cannot bend around corners. This mode also has a skill level attached to it as it can be used against Aliens. Due to the low speed of the Transponders, Marines will have to be good at predicting an Aliens movements, as well as aiming. The wire is broken if the target moves out of the fairly low range or moves around a sharp bend that could potentially snap the wire. Marines could "gang up" on a target with their transponders, but the likelyhood of this happening against an Alien is minimal because of their fast movement speeds. However multiple Marines attacking a structure with this could be a very useful teamplay strategy. (As someone mentioned, could "hive rushes" be a problem?)
Melee Mode (Knife): Nothing much to say. The Marine activates the "Taser" and jabs it forward. The Taser emits reasonable damage at a constant rate for as long as the target is in its close range.
Visually I think the Taser looks good. However a further bending of the handle may serve to remedy some complaints over its non-lethal visuals.
So that's my idea of how it could be implemented I hope I helped in some way!
Learn to read. Open up the front page, press CTRL+F, type "stun" and see the result turn up as "not found" or "0 of 0".
I'm not entirely sure why people are hung up on this idea that the weapon would be some kind of kill switch against Onos, and therefore a ban from being used against it hard coded in to the game.
For a start the question is still up in the air as to how "powerful" the onos will be by comparison to NS1, in order to make it a more rewarding experience, and one has to assume therefore not as costly to lose. The second is why on earth anyone thinks the devs would make it so that 3 or 4 marines concentrating on an Onos would choose to do so with an electric discharge weapon rather than heavy machine guns and GLs?
For a start the question is still up in the air as to how "powerful" the onos will be by comparison to NS1, in order to make it a more rewarding experience, and one has to assume therefore not as costly to lose. The second is why on earth anyone thinks the devs would make it so that 3 or 4 marines concentrating on an Onos would choose to do so with an electric discharge weapon rather than heavy machine guns and GLs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point. Absolutely.
I thought about this a little more. Perhaps even several marines latching onto an Onos could be a viable tactic. If the damage is very small to begin with, and then increases at a reasonable rate. The Marines have a decision to make. Mass electrocution of the Onos may scare it, or even kill it. However the time taken for the constant damage to increase may be too much given the situation. The Marines would be vulnerable during this stage, not just from the Onos, but from other aliens (that should be attacking with the Onos). If the Marines have more advanced weapons, attacking the Onos with these weapons will be far more effective than electrocution. Perhaps even this ganging-up tactic will help Marines try to kill an Onos if they have not managed to advance their weapons sufficiently. This tactic could be quite interesting.
Similarly, if one Marine decides to latch onto the Onos while the Onos is fighting off other Marines. The Onos must prioritise its targets. If this one Marine stays alive then the electrical damage may increase to a point where the Onos has to retreat.
Marines need... THIS!!!
<img src="http://justhikereports.com/images/justhike/store/products/frontiersmanbearspray.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
and THIS!!!
<img src="http://survivalanddefense.com/shop/images/stun_blast.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My God! I love it. I just... love it.
thought i'd help the devs get cracking at redesigning the TSA logo so they dont need to spend money outsourcing that too.
<img src="http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1082/ns2z.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Join the TSA now ladies and recieve a free electric razor on spawn for a nice smooth shave time after time!