<!--quoteo(post=1718728:date=Jul 22 2009, 03:49 PM:name=lazy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lazy @ Jul 22 2009, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really know how this will work out but to be honest I do not like the idea at all and would much prefer having a knife and a pistol.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I wanted to play NS1 I would play it. Oh wait, I already do! I am not paying for a game that is the same thing just with better graphics. I want improvements and NS2 looks to fit the bill.
<!--quoteo(post=1718730:date=Jul 22 2009, 03:51 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ Jul 22 2009, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, can I upgrade my dart transponders for mines that attach to the skulk? Then when he runs back to his little gorge buddy.... BOOM!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1718727:date=Jul 22 2009, 04:48 PM:name=wouho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wouho @ Jul 22 2009, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And no knife, you get the melee bashing with your primary weapon already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think bashing has the purpose of knocking back aliens so they can´t bite you and you can aim better at them, it shouldn´t be meant to kill as in bashing repeatedly like a baseball bat. Might even be possible, but not ideal use. That´s what the taser is meant for.
<!--quoteo(post=1718729:date=Jul 22 2009, 08:50 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jul 22 2009, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718729"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can see me having seizures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't that just your usual playing style? :P
<!--quoteo(post=1718731:date=Jul 22 2009, 04:51 PM:name=GrandMoffVixen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandMoffVixen @ Jul 22 2009, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I wanted to play NS1 I would play it. Oh wait, I already do! I am not paying for a game that is the same thing just with better graphics. I want improvements and NS2 looks to fit the bill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I second this. Otherwise they should just called this "NS Remake" and not "NS 2".
Hm. I think Valve tried to re-hash something on a newer Engine. Something like HL1: Source was it? I heard it was epic fail.
This is their chance to make NS1 even more awesome. They want to keep it unique, but not make the mistakes that hold NS1 back. I applaud their efforts and can't wait to try the finished product.
<!--coloro:lawngreen--><span style="color:lawngreen"><!--/coloro-->Awesome idea!! But I don't think you should be able to use it as a shield...
Make it so the secondary fire can't be used for more than a few seconds at the time (like 5-10 sec), and then after that it would have to recharge (like flashlight in HL2)... You could make a small display or counter or something on the weapon to show how much power is left... :3 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1718739:date=Jul 22 2009, 09:09 PM:name=XeZo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (XeZo @ Jul 22 2009, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lawngreen--><span style="color:lawngreen"><!--/coloro-->Awesome idea!! But I don't think you should be able to use it as a shield...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my I just got an image of 5 marines abreast in a corridor marching forward in unison with their taser's secondary fire crackling, skulks leaping towards them and being comically crispified.
I agree with the reasoning, it's always much easier to accept more or less weird ideas when they've got some good explanation. The actual implementation to make the weapon fun, interesting and badass is another thing of course.
I won't bash the concept before I try it - but seeing it initially is a turn off.
REASONS:
1) It looks freaking lame. You have a nice design style that follows the themes of movies like Alien(s). This looks like Star Trek in a big way. If you are going to keep it, please consider a redesign with a bit more militaristic look/feel.
2) Tasing just kind of sucks. There have been a few games with taser/electrode type devices, and honestly, they never got used.
Why not have something badass like a pistol that has a circular saw or something and an arm grip (rather than just a hand grip). You've basically turned the secondary weapon NOT into a backup, but into a primary building killer. This thing seems useless to pull out as you run out of ammo, whether it be to defend yourself, or to finish off an enemy. Maybe there's some dynamics I'm missing, but seriously.
I'm also a bit concerned that alpha's and beta's were announced to be coming relatively soon, when with every post I read, I see just how far you really have to go...
Do you really think this game is going to make a debut in 2009? We've got 5 months left in the year, and you don't have a final concept down for the secondary/melee weapon type.
<a href="http://www.ninelegends.com/files/index.php?dir=Movies/Hosted/Shorts/&file=edrushdoesit.rar" target="_blank">Knife</a> and pistol were cool in NS1. Pistol is good as a long-range weapon and it was fun trying to hit a distant escaping fade and killing it! Knifing RTs wasn't actually that boring, because you ought to get attacked. Eating RT's as a skulk is a lot more boring! (more time spent on that anyway) I know that NS2 might be tight on budget, so I understand the reasons.
Since we haven't seen the game, I don't want to excoriate it prematurely, maybe it will be cool. Another option is to add kind of loadable electric blast (like Samus in SSBM).
Personally, I think a tazer in a battle against aliens is kind of unnecessary. When it comes down to fighting fades and onos I don't want to feel like im subduing a suspect, I want bullets. I think it would be a cool idea if there were a melee tazer under the barrel of the pistol so it would give the marines a feel a technological advancment from a knife while still keeping the firepower of the pistol, but just having the secondary weapon being only a tazer wouldn't make me feel safe roaming around in alien territory lol.
Well, since from what I gathered from the NS 2 weapon system, we'll be buying weapons in game right?
So here's what I think should be done, and suggest for this.
Have the tase-gun as a sort of, alternate buyable weapon. But... use it as the main one until you can find the time to add the knife and handgun. This lets NS2 get produced faster, but gives us all the awesome you planned for.
Let's face it, the KNIFE and the PISTOL, were KEY items in NS1. Knifing was just histerical in the hands of a heavy and all around great for shanking an onos. The pistol was fast, accurate, and one of the most deadly weapons to fire instantly at the longest range. it was our own mini sniper rifle. These 2 weapons embody NS more than any other weapon we had.
So that's my advice. Use the tase-gun as the knife/pistol for now, but eventually make it an alternative gun to purchase later after there is time to build, rig, and animate the knife and pistol.
Also, I much rather see knife and pistols mods than this tase-gun. But I just want it all now. These ideas are just too good to pass up.
Honestly, I really do apreciate all the work you guys do. In fact I admire this team for its talent, ideas, the motivation to make a great game. But I really think this taser thing its just wrong. I dont see it in the world of NS2 or any kind of world infested by aliens, you pointing a taser to a creature, aiming to kill it with a litte charge of electricity. Just reminds me of a police officer with a taser on his hand and a pepper spray on the other, like the marines are not trying to kill the creature but capture it to study it (humm... not bad..). Sorry, but that simply seems ridiculous to me. I think this kind of thing such as melee damage should be done by some sort of close range blow torch or plasma cutter (like the one you see in Dead Space), it would still function as a pistol but it could have a secondary fire to meelee damge the structure. It would look much like the welder, though and it would not be original, but something along these lines, some sort of flamethrower, i dont know, the idea of killing organic structures always brings up the need of FIRE to me. I like the idea of eletric shield, seems great.
<!--quoteo(post=1718746:date=May 30 3105, 04:32 PM:name=ckreon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ckreon @ May 30 3105, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I won't bash the concept before I try it - but seeing it initially is a turn off.
REASONS: [tl;dr] 2) Tasing just kind of sucks. There have been a few games with taser/electrode type devices, and honestly, they never got used. [tl;dr]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Except Syphon Filter, you could set people on fire with it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Not sure i'm sold on the idea of a taser myself, but if the code is so easy to modify, we might get our "normal" weaps back before long (perhaps it could be configured as a choice by the server you connect to)
<!--quoteo(post=1718755:date=Jul 22 2009, 12:55 PM:name=phoenixbbs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixbbs @ Jul 22 2009, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure i'm sold on the idea of a taser myself, but if the code is so easy to modify, we might get our "normal" weaps back before long (perhaps it could be configured as a choice by the server you connect to)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think I like the idea of devs hiding behind "easily modifiable code" to just release whatever. I'm not saying in any way that's what they're currently doing - but posts like this imply that you basically just want them to release the engine, and we'll build the rest.
Mods are awesome, but history has shown that great mods come from great games.
grepdashvLord of the BugsJoin Date: 2002-11-13Member: 8487Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...why most or all FPS games have a melee weapon that you spawn with - when you run out of ammo you need to have a CHANCE to defeat other players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the solution is not to give players a <i>melee</i> weapon. The solution, at the most basic level, is to give players a weapon that does not run out of ammo. Typically, such weapons are implemented as melee weapons, but that need not be the case. Another reason to make the "weapon of last resort" a melee weapon is that such weapons have a significant disadvantage in terms of range. On the other hand, melee weapons in NS behaved very strangely due to the HL engine's bizarre melee effects. One such oddity was that if an enemy landed on your head, you would often hit him with a melee attack, even if you weren't looking at him. Lag effects (from network or video) are exacerbated at close range, so melee weapons can be an incredible source of frustration in general. For better or worse, the Kharaa rely heavily on melee attacks, so it would make sense for the marines to lack melee attacks altogether or to be limited to very weak melee attacks. The NS1 knife was far from weak, and the "chance" of a marine killing a skulk in a melee battle was far too high, given that such combat should have given the Kharaa a significant edge (as a reward for living long enough to get that close).
Should there be a melee weapon in NS2? Perhaps. My suggestion would be to have the welder fill the role of the undroppable, infinite-ammo, melee weapon. Minimalism is certainly in its favor, as it is a familiar item and could serve multiple roles (special map interaction / structure repair / armor repair / melee weapon). Damage could be adjusted independently of the repair rate (as was done in NS1).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...players often spend a significant amount of time using their knives on high health alien structures...there must be a way to lessen the monotony of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There were multiple reasons to use knives against structures in NS1, and one of the primary reasons for experienced players was that it was the fastest way for a lone marine to kill a single structure at an early point in the game. It also had tactical significance, and it conserved ammo. If multiple marines were together or if weapon upgrades were in play or if a player had a shotgun or if multiple structures were involved (especially a DC), then the knife ceased to be the most effective solution. However, experienced players might still choose the knife as a sub-optimal solution (in terms of efficiency) in order to offset the risk of being caught in the middle of a reload when shooting down a structure. In short, it was situational. Welders were once the weapon of choice for destroying structures, as their damage was originally much higher than it should have been. In short, players will do what is most effective. If the NS2 marine melee weapon isn't effective at killing structures, then they won't use it for that purpose. If you want structure killing to be less monotonous, then structures would have to be weaker. As a result, structures would also need to be easier and cheaper to build; less critical to lose; and more of them would need to be allowed in an area. You can't have it both ways. If structures are going to be hard to kill, then killing them will take time, and that will create monotony. However, the marine melee weapon is not relevant to the issue, since the Kharaa will still encounter the same exact monotony when they go to bite down marine structures. Neither side should face such monotony, so the larger issue is gameplay related to structures on the whole.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...the pistol in NS1 had only one really good use - a backup ranged weapon that could be used when your primary weapon couldn't be used...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so. In the right hands, the pistol was effectively a sniper rifle, dealing up to 200 damage (at w0) very quickly and with pinpoint accuracy at any range. Many a fade died to a barrage of pistol fire during an attempted escape down a long, straight hallway. When covering a position at the end of a long hall, some players actually preferred to use pistols, switching to "primary" weapons only if the enemy could live long enough to close in. With weapon upgrades and good aim, two skulks would fall to a single pistol clip. Pistols really proved their worth once welders and mines were moved to other slots, allowing the marines to carry a pistol at all times.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So this is what we desired in NS2:
* A melee weapon that you can always use * A secondary ranged weapon that isn't better than your default weapon * A way for players to destroy structures without monotony * To minimize the work we have to do<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Solution: * Make the welder the melee weapon. (solves #1, #4) * Make the pistol act like a normal pistol. (solves #2, #4) * Change the gameplay related to structures, if possible. (solves #3 - a separate problem from the others)
Whatever you do, don't have a melee weapon that continuously fires or that has a high rate of fire or that is any other way more effective at killing than the weakest Kharaa melee weapon. Otherwise, you're taking away one of the advantages that the Kharaa should have, and you're taking the marines out of character. And, don't muddle in problem #3 with the others, as they are basically unrelated.
Personally, I think a taser would be a great addition. However, I would not like to see it replace a knife and/or pistol. It would be very original and would give the game a more unique feel. The problem I can see with it is people are just use to FPS games having a pistol and a knife. For the most part any game that nerfs a pistol in a sequel automatically angers the community when they play the game (take Halo to Halo 2 for example).
I think the concept is golden and would be a great research weapon. If it is going to indeed replace the knife and the pistol then I think we can all expect to see a lot of servers being customized to have a knife and pistol. It may be just to big of a change for some players.
Either way, it is an extremely exciting idea and I would definitely like to use it in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1718758:date=Jul 22 2009, 01:06 PM:name=grepdashv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grepdashv @ Jul 22 2009, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, the solution is not to give players a <i>melee</i> weapon. The solution, at the most basic level, is to give players a weapon that does not run out of ammo. Typically, such weapons are implemented as melee weapons, but that need not be the case. Another reason to make the "weapon of last resort" a melee weapon is that such weapons have a significant disadvantage in terms of range. On the other hand, melee weapons in NS behaved very strangely due to the HL engine's bizarre melee effects. One such oddity was that if an enemy landed on your head, you would often hit him with a melee attack, even if you weren't looking at him. Lag effects (from network or video) are exacerbated at close range, so melee weapons can be an incredible source of frustration in general. For better or worse, the Kharaa rely heavily on melee attacks, so it would make sense for the marines to lack melee attacks altogether or to be limited to very weak melee attacks. The NS1 knife was far from weak, and the "chance" of a marine killing a skulk in a melee battle was far too high, given that such combat should have given the Kharaa a significant edge (as a reward for living long enough to get that close).
Should there be a melee weapon in NS2? Perhaps. My suggestion would be to have the welder fill the role of the undroppable, infinite-ammo, melee weapon. Minimalism is certainly in its favor, as it is a familiar item and could serve multiple roles (special map interaction / structure repair / armor repair / melee weapon). Damage could be adjusted independently of the repair rate (as was done in NS1).
There were multiple reasons to use knives against structures in NS1, and one of the primary reasons for experienced players was that it was the fastest way for a lone marine to kill a single structure at an early point in the game. It also had tactical significance, and it conserved ammo. If multiple marines were together or if weapon upgrades were in play or if a player had a shotgun or if multiple structures were involved (especially a DC), then the knife ceased to be the most effective solution. However, experienced players might still choose the knife as a sub-optimal solution (in terms of efficiency) in order to offset the risk of being caught in the middle of a reload when shooting down a structure. In short, it was situational. Welders were once the weapon of choice for destroying structures, as their damage was originally much higher than it should have been. In short, players will do what is most effective. If the NS2 marine melee weapon isn't effective at killing structures, then they won't use it for that purpose. If you want structure killing to be less monotonous, then structures would have to be weaker. As a result, structures would also need to be easier and cheaper to build; less critical to lose; and more of them would need to be allowed in an area. You can't have it both ways. If structures are going to be hard to kill, then killing them will take time, and that will create monotony. However, the marine melee weapon is not relevant to the issue, since the Kharaa will still encounter the same exact monotony when they go to bite down marine structures. Neither side should face such monotony, so the larger issue is gameplay related to structures on the whole.
Not so. In the right hands, the pistol was effectively a sniper rifle, dealing up to 200 damage (at w0) very quickly and with pinpoint accuracy at any range. Many a fade died to a barrage of pistol fire during an attempted escape down a long, straight hallway. When covering a position at the end of a long hall, some players actually preferred to use pistols, switching to "primary" weapons only if the enemy could live long enough to close in. With weapon upgrades and good aim, two skulks would fall to a single pistol clip. Pistols really proved their worth once welders and mines were moved to other slots, allowing the marines to carry a pistol at all times.
Solution: * Make the welder the melee weapon. (solves #1, #4) * Make the pistol act like a normal pistol. (solves #2, #4) * Change the gameplay related to structures, if possible. (solves #3 - a separate problem from the others)
Whatever you do, don't have a melee weapon that continuously fires or that has a high rate of fire or that is any other way more effective at killing than the weakest Kharaa melee weapon. Otherwise, you're taking away one of the advantages that the Kharaa should have, and you're taking the marines out of character. And, don't muddle in problem #3 with the others, as they are basically unrelated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoted so devs have to at least see this seriously great advice a second time.
Comments
Also, can I upgrade my dart transponders for mines that attach to the skulk? Then when he runs back to his little gorge buddy.... BOOM!
If I wanted to play NS1 I would play it. Oh wait, I already do! I am not paying for a game that is the same thing just with better graphics. I want improvements and NS2 looks to fit the bill.
This would be epic win.
I think bashing has the purpose of knocking back aliens so they can´t bite you and you can aim better at them, it shouldn´t be meant to kill as in bashing repeatedly like a baseball bat. Might even be possible, but not ideal use. That´s what the taser is meant for.
Isn't that just your usual playing style? :P
I second this. Otherwise they should just called this "NS Remake" and not "NS 2".
This is their chance to make NS1 even more awesome. They want to keep it unique, but not make the mistakes that hold NS1 back. I applaud their efforts and can't wait to try the finished product.
Make it so the secondary fire can't be used for more than a few seconds at the time (like 5-10 sec), and then after that it would have to recharge (like flashlight in HL2)...
You could make a small display or counter or something on the weapon to show how much power is left... :3 <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Why do you say that pistol is over? It's great and balanced, a great resource for fades / lerks and other ranged targets :/
Oh my I just got an image of 5 marines abreast in a corridor marching forward in unison with their taser's secondary fire crackling, skulks leaping towards them and being comically crispified.
Christmas Mod anyone? *imagines seeing colorful lights being shot everywhere*
REASONS:
1) It looks freaking lame. You have a nice design style that follows the themes of movies like Alien(s). This looks like Star Trek in a big way. If you are going to keep it, please consider a redesign with a bit more militaristic look/feel.
2) Tasing just kind of sucks. There have been a few games with taser/electrode type devices, and honestly, they never got used.
Why not have something badass like a pistol that has a circular saw or something and an arm grip (rather than just a hand grip). You've basically turned the secondary weapon NOT into a backup, but into a primary building killer. This thing seems useless to pull out as you run out of ammo, whether it be to defend yourself, or to finish off an enemy. Maybe there's some dynamics I'm missing, but seriously.
I'm also a bit concerned that alpha's and beta's were announced to be coming relatively soon, when with every post I read, I see just how far you really have to go...
Do you really think this game is going to make a debut in 2009? We've got 5 months left in the year, and you don't have a final concept down for the secondary/melee weapon type.
Since we haven't seen the game, I don't want to excoriate it prematurely, maybe it will be cool. Another option is to add kind of loadable electric blast (like Samus in SSBM).
So here's what I think should be done, and suggest for this.
Have the tase-gun as a sort of, alternate buyable weapon. But... use it as the main one until you can find the time to add the knife and handgun. This lets NS2 get produced faster, but gives us all the awesome you planned for.
Let's face it, the KNIFE and the PISTOL, were KEY items in NS1. Knifing was just histerical in the hands of a heavy and all around great for shanking an onos. The pistol was fast, accurate, and one of the most deadly weapons to fire instantly at the longest range. it was our own mini sniper rifle. These 2 weapons embody NS more than any other weapon we had.
So that's my advice. Use the tase-gun as the knife/pistol for now, but eventually make it an alternative gun to purchase later after there is time to build, rig, and animate the knife and pistol.
Also, I much rather see knife and pistols mods than this tase-gun. But I just want it all now. These ideas are just too good to pass up.
I like the idea of eletric shield, seems great.
REASONS:
[tl;dr]
2) Tasing just kind of sucks. There have been a few games with taser/electrode type devices, and honestly, they never got used.
[tl;dr]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Except Syphon Filter, you could set people on fire with it.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~
I don't think I like the idea of devs hiding behind "easily modifiable code" to just release whatever. I'm not saying in any way that's what they're currently doing - but posts like this imply that you basically just want them to release the engine, and we'll build the rest.
Mods are awesome, but history has shown that great mods come from great games.
Actually, the solution is not to give players a <i>melee</i> weapon. The solution, at the most basic level, is to give players a weapon that does not run out of ammo. Typically, such weapons are implemented as melee weapons, but that need not be the case. Another reason to make the "weapon of last resort" a melee weapon is that such weapons have a significant disadvantage in terms of range. On the other hand, melee weapons in NS behaved very strangely due to the HL engine's bizarre melee effects. One such oddity was that if an enemy landed on your head, you would often hit him with a melee attack, even if you weren't looking at him. Lag effects (from network or video) are exacerbated at close range, so melee weapons can be an incredible source of frustration in general. For better or worse, the Kharaa rely heavily on melee attacks, so it would make sense for the marines to lack melee attacks altogether or to be limited to very weak melee attacks. The NS1 knife was far from weak, and the "chance" of a marine killing a skulk in a melee battle was far too high, given that such combat should have given the Kharaa a significant edge (as a reward for living long enough to get that close).
Should there be a melee weapon in NS2? Perhaps. My suggestion would be to have the welder fill the role of the undroppable, infinite-ammo, melee weapon. Minimalism is certainly in its favor, as it is a familiar item and could serve multiple roles (special map interaction / structure repair / armor repair / melee weapon). Damage could be adjusted independently of the repair rate (as was done in NS1).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...players often spend a significant amount of time using their knives on high health alien structures...there must be a way to lessen the monotony of this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There were multiple reasons to use knives against structures in NS1, and one of the primary reasons for experienced players was that it was the fastest way for a lone marine to kill a single structure at an early point in the game. It also had tactical significance, and it conserved ammo. If multiple marines were together or if weapon upgrades were in play or if a player had a shotgun or if multiple structures were involved (especially a DC), then the knife ceased to be the most effective solution. However, experienced players might still choose the knife as a sub-optimal solution (in terms of efficiency) in order to offset the risk of being caught in the middle of a reload when shooting down a structure. In short, it was situational. Welders were once the weapon of choice for destroying structures, as their damage was originally much higher than it should have been. In short, players will do what is most effective. If the NS2 marine melee weapon isn't effective at killing structures, then they won't use it for that purpose. If you want structure killing to be less monotonous, then structures would have to be weaker. As a result, structures would also need to be easier and cheaper to build; less critical to lose; and more of them would need to be allowed in an area. You can't have it both ways. If structures are going to be hard to kill, then killing them will take time, and that will create monotony. However, the marine melee weapon is not relevant to the issue, since the Kharaa will still encounter the same exact monotony when they go to bite down marine structures. Neither side should face such monotony, so the larger issue is gameplay related to structures on the whole.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...the pistol in NS1 had only one really good use - a backup ranged weapon that could be used when your primary weapon couldn't be used...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so. In the right hands, the pistol was effectively a sniper rifle, dealing up to 200 damage (at w0) very quickly and with pinpoint accuracy at any range. Many a fade died to a barrage of pistol fire during an attempted escape down a long, straight hallway. When covering a position at the end of a long hall, some players actually preferred to use pistols, switching to "primary" weapons only if the enemy could live long enough to close in. With weapon upgrades and good aim, two skulks would fall to a single pistol clip. Pistols really proved their worth once welders and mines were moved to other slots, allowing the marines to carry a pistol at all times.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So this is what we desired in NS2:
* A melee weapon that you can always use
* A secondary ranged weapon that isn't better than your default weapon
* A way for players to destroy structures without monotony
* To minimize the work we have to do<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Solution:
* Make the welder the melee weapon. (solves #1, #4)
* Make the pistol act like a normal pistol. (solves #2, #4)
* Change the gameplay related to structures, if possible. (solves #3 - a separate problem from the others)
Whatever you do, don't have a melee weapon that continuously fires or that has a high rate of fire or that is any other way more effective at killing than the weakest Kharaa melee weapon. Otherwise, you're taking away one of the advantages that the Kharaa should have, and you're taking the marines out of character. And, don't muddle in problem #3 with the others, as they are basically unrelated.
i just dont like the text about it would be so great to destroy structures
if so, what will the GL be needed for?
rest sounds ok
I think the concept is golden and would be a great research weapon. If it is going to indeed replace the knife and the pistol then I think we can all expect to see a lot of servers being customized to have a knife and pistol. It may be just to big of a change for some players.
Either way, it is an extremely exciting idea and I would definitely like to use it in the game.
Should there be a melee weapon in NS2? Perhaps. My suggestion would be to have the welder fill the role of the undroppable, infinite-ammo, melee weapon. Minimalism is certainly in its favor, as it is a familiar item and could serve multiple roles (special map interaction / structure repair / armor repair / melee weapon). Damage could be adjusted independently of the repair rate (as was done in NS1).
There were multiple reasons to use knives against structures in NS1, and one of the primary reasons for experienced players was that it was the fastest way for a lone marine to kill a single structure at an early point in the game. It also had tactical significance, and it conserved ammo. If multiple marines were together or if weapon upgrades were in play or if a player had a shotgun or if multiple structures were involved (especially a DC), then the knife ceased to be the most effective solution. However, experienced players might still choose the knife as a sub-optimal solution (in terms of efficiency) in order to offset the risk of being caught in the middle of a reload when shooting down a structure. In short, it was situational. Welders were once the weapon of choice for destroying structures, as their damage was originally much higher than it should have been. In short, players will do what is most effective. If the NS2 marine melee weapon isn't effective at killing structures, then they won't use it for that purpose. If you want structure killing to be less monotonous, then structures would have to be weaker. As a result, structures would also need to be easier and cheaper to build; less critical to lose; and more of them would need to be allowed in an area. You can't have it both ways. If structures are going to be hard to kill, then killing them will take time, and that will create monotony. However, the marine melee weapon is not relevant to the issue, since the Kharaa will still encounter the same exact monotony when they go to bite down marine structures. Neither side should face such monotony, so the larger issue is gameplay related to structures on the whole.
Not so. In the right hands, the pistol was effectively a sniper rifle, dealing up to 200 damage (at w0) very quickly and with pinpoint accuracy at any range. Many a fade died to a barrage of pistol fire during an attempted escape down a long, straight hallway. When covering a position at the end of a long hall, some players actually preferred to use pistols, switching to "primary" weapons only if the enemy could live long enough to close in. With weapon upgrades and good aim, two skulks would fall to a single pistol clip. Pistols really proved their worth once welders and mines were moved to other slots, allowing the marines to carry a pistol at all times.
Solution:
* Make the welder the melee weapon. (solves #1, #4)
* Make the pistol act like a normal pistol. (solves #2, #4)
* Change the gameplay related to structures, if possible. (solves #3 - a separate problem from the others)
Whatever you do, don't have a melee weapon that continuously fires or that has a high rate of fire or that is any other way more effective at killing than the weakest Kharaa melee weapon. Otherwise, you're taking away one of the advantages that the Kharaa should have, and you're taking the marines out of character. And, don't muddle in problem #3 with the others, as they are basically unrelated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
quoted so devs have to at least see this seriously great advice a second time.