<!--quoteo(post=1714078:date=Jun 26 2009, 12:11 AM:name=Kassinger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kassinger @ Jun 26 2009, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps the alien commander will have some kind of spellcaster role. I think it has already been mentioned that he can send off nymphs to scout.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like that idea, because it differentiates the marine commander from the alien commander. They would take on unique roles in that way.
<!--quoteo(post=1714726:date=Jun 29 2009, 04:24 PM:name=Avata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Avata @ Jun 29 2009, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infestation and the tactic of spreading it is completely a RTS concept.... not unlike the power grid.
Put simply, adding options for changing the face of the battlefield makes for a deeper experience. Right now the original NS is pretty dynamic... but... the game is so well played out everyone is aware of the "pendulum of power" that a NS game has. A majority of games swing towards the aliens to start. It's up to the aliens to topple that swing over to a win. If the marines get a chance to push the pendulum back (Or even just stop it), the game mostly, eventually, goes to the marines. I actually like this, and to me it suits the personality of the teams (Aliens infest, marines turtle)
Giving the aliens the ability to push out infestation (Via gorge spray, or chamber support) is a valid way for aliens to weaken the effectiveness of marine turtling.
Shut off lights in surrounding areas Make some intersections more alien friendly (Like disable lifts, conceal hiding places etc) Undo weld points (Or let aliens gum up a door) Provide cover for egging Infested areas make alien sounds that distract the marines (Like random skulk footsteps, egg evolving sounds, anything that might make a marine check his 6 and fire at something that isn't you) Marines walk slower in infested areas (This is an obvious suggestion that's probably too unbalancing, and therefore a bad idea) Infested areas can be webbed but since it's under the infestation, marines can't see it
Imagine maps that have each area change in tactic as each side claims it. Infested, it's opened up for alien advantage (vents accessable, hiding places, ladders blocked/disabled). Powered up, it's open for marine advantage (viewing windows to see incoming, security cameras available, vents closed off, back rooms accessable).
And the opposite can be true... What about maps where claiming a spot gives the advantage to the enemy? Infected areas leave doors wide open and fill the room with light, but closes vents. Powered up areas cause the vents to open up and fill the room with smoke, creates a "airlock" entrance being a double door system that is the only way for marines in and out. It's easy to get that area, but hard to hold it.
Sorry but I don't play this game for the kill count, I play it for the surprises. This is one game I don't mind losing at because even a lost game can be satisfying by doing something unexpected that kinda almost coulda worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You and me are on the same train of thought. If I want to kill alot of people or just have a dynamic DM id go play CS:S or TF2
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1714726:date=Jun 30 2009, 02:24 AM:name=Avata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Avata @ Jun 30 2009, 02:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infestation and the tactic of spreading it is completely a RTS concept.... not unlike the power grid.
Put simply, adding options for changing the face of the battlefield makes for a deeper experience. Right now the original NS is pretty dynamic... but... the game is so well played out everyone is aware of the "pendulum of power" that a NS game has. A majority of games swing towards the aliens to start. It's up to the aliens to topple that swing over to a win. If the marines get a chance to push the pendulum back (Or even just stop it), the game mostly, eventually, goes to the marines. I actually like this, and to me it suits the personality of the teams (Aliens infest, marines turtle)
Giving the aliens the ability to push out infestation (Via gorge spray, or chamber support) is a valid way for aliens to weaken the effectiveness of marine turtling.
Shut off lights in surrounding areas Make some intersections more alien friendly (Like disable lifts, conceal hiding places etc) Undo weld points (Or let aliens gum up a door) Provide cover for egging Infested areas make alien sounds that distract the marines (Like random skulk footsteps, egg evolving sounds, anything that might make a marine check his 6 and fire at something that isn't you) Marines walk slower in infested areas (This is an obvious suggestion that's probably too unbalancing, and therefore a bad idea) Infested areas can be webbed but since it's under the infestation, marines can't see it
Imagine maps that have each area change in tactic as each side claims it. Infested, it's opened up for alien advantage (vents accessable, hiding places, ladders blocked/disabled). Powered up, it's open for marine advantage (viewing windows to see incoming, security cameras available, vents closed off, back rooms accessable).
And the opposite can be true... What about maps where claiming a spot gives the advantage to the enemy? Infected areas leave doors wide open and fill the room with light, but closes vents. Powered up areas cause the vents to open up and fill the room with smoke, creates a "airlock" entrance being a double door system that is the only way for marines in and out. It's easy to get that area, but hard to hold it.
Sorry but I don't play this game for the kill count, I play it for the surprises. This is one game I don't mind losing at because even a lost game can be satisfying by doing something unexpected that kinda almost coulda worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is all just awesome :D and its what i've always hoped from ns2
Well if you first take a look at the Frontiersman commander, and what makes that exciting. He first and foremost places structures, resource towers for the most part, that is something that will translate well to the Kharaa commander. Secondly, he manages upgrades, now from the mock up shots for the alien commander, the role of upgrades appear be differnt, much more dynamic and interchangeable in contrast to the 'snowball' marine upgrades, where eventually the marines will have all of their upgrades. So I surmise that upgrade management will take a slightly more important role in the alien commander meta game.
However, probably the most 'action' orientated role of the marine commander is the micro-management, resupplying and maintenance of his men, constantly med packing and dealing out weapons and ammo to keep his men in the fight. How can this translate over to an alien commander? If NS2 lifeforms are anything like their NS1 counterparts, resupplying from the commander is out, they manage their own healing. The 'spellcasting' idea is interesting, could the alien commander drop something like umbra to protect attacking or retreating teammates? Maybe a 'frenzy' like ability akin to the marine catalyst pack? I feel that this is the area that (if the alien commander is going to take a more permanent position in the game like the marine counterpart) needs the most thought.
Lastly, of course, there is the subject of the infestation, this is something where the macro-management aspect of commanding comes into play. Where the marine commander will be constantly trying to keep his men in order and issuing orders on multiple fronts, the alien commander will be managing direction of where lifeforms should attack, trying to push the infestation as far forward as possible to make room for new hives, while disrupting the 'powergrid' on the offensive. The more 'defensive' base-building aspect will be that of (painting?) directing infestation (telling gorges where to "spray" infestation?).
Of course, this is all mere conjecture, I don't know how the alien commander will play out. But from a meta-game point of view, I see the two commanders as having the same key building blocks that make up their roles, yet still remaining vastly differnt in their methods.
<!--quoteo(post=1714840:date=Jun 30 2009, 12:22 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Jun 30 2009, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly, of course, there is the subject of the infestation, this is something where the macro-management aspect of commanding comes into play. Where the marine commander will be constantly trying to keep his men in order and issuing orders on multiple fronts, the alien commander will be managing direction of where lifeforms should attack, trying to push the infestation as far forward as possible to make room for new hives, while disrupting the 'powergrid' on the offensive. The more 'defensive' base-building aspect will be that of (painting?) directing infestation (telling gorges where to "spray" infestation?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's ironic that the aliens are dependant on players co-operating and marines are dependant on the commander. Wouldn't you think that aliens with their "hive mind" would be more focused than humans? The way the alien team handles resources in NS1 works the way it is as far as I can see, and I can't think of any real problems that this idea solves. All it does is encourage the aliens to work together in the same way the marine comm does.
Still... Infestation management is an interesting solution to the hive commander problem. So the Alien Commander can.... erm.... Influence... building production?
The Marine commander is all Dictate. Have this item. Build this structure. The Commander in effect hands out resources. The alien commander can be about influence. Make <this> area more attactive to players. Chambers grow faster in <this> room right now. Our upgrades are currently about stealth and speed. Alien Commander isn't about handing out resources, but maybe about adjusting where resources are best spent by the player?
Alien commander gets controls designed to interact with the hive and the infestation. Changing things in the hive influences what upgrade strengths players have, or maybe what lifeforms are available to evolve into at any given part of the game. Interacting with Infestation should be a way of focusing the team. Infestation interaction could be clicking on the area that you want growth to happen. Or the Alien Commander can make some parts of the infestation have healing properties, like at the edge of the marine zone, start growing healing bulbs out of the infestation that aliens can eat as health packs, or grow evolution sacks near the hive or in some other area that's strategically important. I like what Charisma said about "painting". The Alien commander has a set amount of growth he can paint onto infestation. By default, all infested areas have equal growth speeds. However, the commander can paint over some infestation so that this area is a higher priority. As one area is painted, other areas fade... Like moving blood to injured parts of the body. Any painting that focusses on one area will slowly even out again (over like 3 minutes the whole infested area goes back to neutral). The Comm can also paint a little to the west, a little to the north, to boost 2 attack or defence fronts half as effectively as 1. Boosted infestation will grow further out, weakened infestation retreats. So it's all give and take. Increase the activity of one area (whole rooms or just specific chambers, depending on the size of the brush?) and it has several effects. Hyper-active areas are visually hyper-active, maybe brighter colors and/or movement and/or growing organic sounds increasing in volume and frequency so that area is obviously more lively. Chambers in that area have bonuses applied, for example, OC's fire at an increased rate, DC's heal at an increased rate, SC's... ummm... go more invisible?, supercharged MC's can be destinations like a PG. Chambers build faster in lively areas. And infestation grows faster and further around lively areas. Maybe include limitations like, you can only affect infestation that is connected to a hive. You can only build chambers on infestation, and gorges can create infestation anywhere so they can build in new areas, but the hive can't influence it until the 2 areas touch.
This is just a concept though.... Making it practical is a different story.
An alternative could be that the hive commander has control of resources. Players use the interface to say where they want the resources to go, but the commander has the final say on which players have the right idea....
From top to bottom, Could work out something like this: Resource towers feed back to a central pool of resources. Hive commander has controls that shape the resource allocation, and players who support the commanders plan are the most efficient Resources have 2 destinations, Players and structures To start with, the only lifeform that can spawn is skulk Evolving can only happen in hives, or in gestation chambers grown on infestation like other chambers. Players who gorge can seed buildings, but this uses no res. The commander applies the res (opposite to marine style) Commander gets to say what areas get to have res applied... Lively areas that the commander paints will have resources fed into them to grow seeds into working chambers.
Building starts with the gorges. Gorges can spray infestation to start new or spread faster, and they can seed existing infestation with chambers. It's then up to the hive commander to funnel resources into that area to start the chambers growing. Maybe half built chambers are completely active, but only half as effective, so aliens don't have to build everything to 100% completion.
Commanders would need to be able to ignore idiot gorges, so if a gorge is making stupid placements, the commander needs to be able to tick "don't waste res on this gorges buildings" for that player". Alternatively, the commander can choose a smaller brush size, and paint only the very specific chambers he wants to grow, starving the dumb ones.
In a good team, the commander can be a little lazy, and just paint a whole area as lively. Effectively saying "Concentrate here, in this room/corridor", or "This is our front-lines, make a push here". Gorges (that aren't on the commanders blacklist) would want to rush there to support the push, planting chambers that will grow fast.
Of course there is a limit to the amount of area that can be made fertile. Increasing production in one area takes strength from other areas making them vulnerable.
That lets the commander guide expansion while still being ultimately reliant on the players. The other half of resource management is player evolution...
I read somewhere that the hive would grow eggs that players spawn out of. The commander could drop eggs containing resources. A player can eat the egg for resources and evolve with that. Comm can drop 3 eggs of 30 res which gives 3 players enough res for lerks. Or 2 eggs of 40 res for fade. If a player chooses lerk instead, the hive gets the unused resources back. Or maybe comm can create a gestation sack that players can jump into like a ready room and the players can choose what they want to come out as. Then the comm can grant or deny depending on the player's ability, available resources, and personal choice.
OR... Each player has a level of trust per game. This grows as the game progresses, maybe the more kills you have, the more you're trusted. Or maybe as you perform commander tasks, your trust increases. As your trust increases, you can evolve into better life-forms (you get to use more resources). Commander has full control over the trust list, and can grant some players full access to lifeforms and limit others to skulks or lerks. This would work better if it was negotiable. For instance... Maybe gestation can only happen when the commander grows a gestation chamber out of infestation. Then players can jump into the gestation chamber, and chose one of the life-forms they are entitled to. While they're waiting to gestate (along with half of their team), they can click on another life-form to request it. The commander's list then shows "Player x is trusted to lerk, but requests fade" (not in words obviously, something intuitive). The commander can ignore the request or grant. If granted, the player pops out as a fade. If ignored, the player either stays in and waits, or gets to select one of the lifeforms he is allowed to use, in this case popping out as a lerk.
The Commander might also be able to set a "desired life form compliment". Like 10% onos, 60% fade, 30% lerk. Based on your level of trust, you get to chose what life-form to be as long as the team is unbalanced. As a crap player, I jump in to the gestation chamber and can only pick Lerk (or have nothing at all cause I'm so bad). As a good player, you can jump in and choose Onos. If 10% of the team is already onos, then you can only choose Fade and under, because that's the priority that the commander has indicated. What will naturally happen is that good players won't always want to evolve right away, so they can chose to forfeit the onos to someone else. The whole system is driven by the commander and is simply a balancing act to suit the current situation and resource availability.
Negotiations between players and commanders can be more automatic though. A player can chose what he wants to be next even if the commander says we don't need it. If it is available, bam, the res is his, and the next time you die, or jump in a gestation pod, your get that life-form. If it's not available immediately, then the res gets given later when it does become available. The player can then evolve. If the player changes his mind, he can either select another life-form that is or is not available, the resources are refunded, and the process starts again (res given as soon as life-form is available to player)
And of course the commander can be a real nazi, and force everyone to skulk until there is enough res for a onos rush, or he can be a full on hippy, and let all players evolve into anything they want, using up all the res and losing the game...
Giving commander control over resource allocation could work... One problem with NS1 is players hording res and neglecting to build anything. Another problem is players evolving to higher life-forms at different times, instead of levelling up together. Both of these things can still be a problem and/or option with the above concept, but it's more likely that having a commander would get the team working together, following the commanders breadcrumbs.
Hurm - just <a href="http://ns2-fr.com/images/random/reel/8722492.jpg" target="_blank">saw this</a> can't find it on the main UWE / NS2 site but the concept of different unique abilities for different "levels" of an alien race is kinda cool.
Avata, your page long replies should come with a warning lol.
I really cannot see how an alien commander would play out without it overlapping with the function of the marine commander. I suggest to keep both sides really different from each other. So if the aliens are to have a commander, i prefer it having rather different function than that of the marines. Perhaps a spell caster like some have suggested.
Geez, I read all of that. Might have to grab a Tylenol now. j/k
Actually I do like your ideas. For the most part that's how I'm imagining the role of the alien commander to be like. The 'painting' idea is interesting and there seems to be strong evidence to support the idea that most of the support coming from the comm comes directly from the infestation, so yes healing 'bulbs' grown from the infestation would heal only aliens who have control over a portion of the map. Inversely, the marines seem to have control over everything initially and then lose it as the infestation enters, which means health pack and ammo drops may only be possible in un-infested areas.
As for your idea on forcing alien classes, I like that a lot. I don't think I would allow the commander to completely prevent a player from going a particular lifeform, but rather I'd play to the typical impatient ns player who wants to get in the heat of battle as soon as possible. By that I mean, that if you really wanted to go a life form which the comm doesn't want you to go, you could do so, but it'd take you twice as long to evolve, whereas if you spawn the life form the comm wants you to go, you could evolve up to twice as fast as you would otherwise (granted that at that point any other life form takes twice as long to evolve, so it may not be the smartest idea). Though I think it would work well since I'm thinking half of all natural selection players would pick the lifeform emphasized by the commander simply to get to play sooner, or if not that, a class like the skulk which has minimal resource wastefulness but one can play immediately rather than evolve at all.
I think that per hive you get a different set of upgrades that you can get. For example, for the first hive, the gorge or whichever could jump in right away, and say have choice between, three types of upgrades. If chosen for that hive, you can't get the other 2 options.
1 - Focused Mind, has three different ranks, costs from 5-15-30res.
If an the commander at the time, goes in and gets this can only start with rank 1 at first, until a certain amount of time, or until a new hive is up.
What this could do is say if a celerity skulk and a silence skulk are side by side, they each get a portion of the others talent. so say if you want a to do an ambush and you have 3 skulks with sillence, and 2 with celerity, the 3 with silence would get an aditional 3-5% speed boost. If they are near the 2 with celerity, and the 2 with celrity if close to the other skulks would get a type of aura or whatever which would make them more silent by a certain amount. That way making team work is even moreso important with skulks and other classes. Rank 2 and rank 3 upgrades for that could be either, increases the stats by a certain amount and/or allows you to merge 2 upgrades you have with 2 upgrades which another team member has. (skulk with silence/focus, one with cloaking/silence, you get a small buff of each.)
2 - Improve Chambers - again, ranks 1-3. different costs.
Commander reaserches this, and with this, for the first rank, it increases one of your stats (by whichever chamber is dropped)
So, say if you're team goes with Movement Chambers. Commander gets this, you go with celerity, while gestating, it gives you the option of whether or not, you wish to incease your celrity by a certain stat, or silence/adren by a certain amount. rank 2 and 3 allows you to put more points into wherever. Each point you put into a certain increase, can also cost a certain amount of res. Wouldn't stack with the Focused mind. Would be more of a, solo upgrade.
3 - no clue yet, but something that has to do with the amount a hive heals it's self, or reduces damage taken if near a hive by a certain amount of increaes overall stats. Etc.
Small idea i thought would be neat to have. I didn't really think too long about each of the upgrades it's all just random thoughts about each.
Frhoe, how about an ability which increases both the range and amount of healing of all nearby aliens as well as itself. Doesn't sound like much, but if you expand the range to being like being remotely in the area of a hive and having the amount of healing being twice that of a defense chamber for all aliens and structures in range, the benefits are noticeable. Plus add a self-heal bonus of at least 5 times the rate of a normal defense chamber for a hive, and you get a hard egg to crack. It would take a focused team to take it out, not a couple of jetpackers with hmgs.
The focused mind idea isn't bad, but I think the synergy with grouping should be boosted just a little more (granted, not too much) and perhaps regulated in the sense that benefits from multiple aliens with the same upgrades don't stack (so you get lame tactics like regeneration gorge orgy).
This is a bit premature, because I haven't even seen the details of the feature. However, it seems to me that the commander position in the marines, and lack thereof in the kharra represented their highly different playstyles. The marines had a lot of in-game support to foster teamwork, and were brutally punished for attempting solo work (by the kharra). The kharra, on the other hand didn't have the same teamwork incentives, they kind of embodied the "spontaneous order" idea.
I've been in NS1 games on the kharra side and won, where our team said virtually nothing the entire time. If you know the signs, you can help your team out without someone telling you how to (but communication does help a lot, I'm just pointing out a difference between kharra and marines in NS1)
That's my two cents. The great appeal of the game to me was this huge difference between the opposing sides, yet the balance that existed even given these large differences. If I got bored of kharra I would play marine, and it was like playing a totally different game.
<!--quoteo(post=1715885:date=Jul 5 2009, 08:42 PM:name=Silentvoice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silentvoice @ Jul 5 2009, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a bit premature, because I haven't even seen the details of the feature. However, it seems to me that the commander position in the marines, and lack thereof in the kharra represented their highly different playstyles. The marines had a lot of in-game support to foster teamwork, and were brutally punished for attempting solo work (by the kharra). The kharra, on the other hand didn't have the same teamwork incentives, they kind of embodied the "spontaneous order" idea.
I've been in NS1 games on the kharra side and won, where our team said virtually nothing the entire time. If you know the signs, you can help your team out without someone telling you how to (but communication does help a lot, I'm just pointing out a difference between kharra and marines in NS1)
That's my two cents. The great appeal of the game to me was this huge difference between the opposing sides, yet the balance that existed even given these large differences. If I got bored of kharra I would play marine, and it was like playing a totally different game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1715919:date=Jul 6 2009, 09:29 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 6 2009, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Couldn't you have just said +28?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then they'd be off by 1... :)
<!--quoteo(post=1715668:date=Jul 4 2009, 09:06 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 4 2009, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Geez, I read all of that. Might have to grab a Tylenol now. j/k<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL sorry. Truth is the original post is twice as long... I actually re-read it like 3 times to edit what doesn't make sense and re-word where ever I repeat myself (happens a lot) So yes... good advice ;) <b>This post has 3 slight variations on existing ideas and 1 footnote</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1715668:date=Jul 4 2009, 09:06 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 4 2009, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By that I mean, that if you really wanted to go a life form which the comm doesn't want you to go, you could do so, but it'd take you twice as long to evolve, whereas if you spawn the life form the comm wants you to go, you could evolve up to twice as fast as you would otherwise (granted that at that point any other life form takes twice as long to evolve, so it may not be the smartest idea). Though I think it would work well since I'm thinking half of all natural selection players would pick the lifeform emphasized by the commander simply to get to play sooner, or if not that, a class like the skulk which has minimal resource wastefulness but one can play immediately rather than evolve at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes a lot of sense.... I like it more than my "forced template" idea because this idea sounds more "organic", which is very topical for aliens.
<b>#1</b> - I read somewhere that the nymphs drop eggs... or their corpses become eggs, or something... But what if... Commander has sliders that shape the desired team life-forms for the moment, and then the game uses this "template" or "shape" to drop eggs that match this. Players can then evolve into these lifeforms by getting into the eggs or eating the eggs or something. If there are lots of lerks and the commander wants some fades, then the game stops dropping lerk eggs and drops fade eggs.
<b>#2</b> - A different idea entirely, what if players get NS1 style res distribution, but can giveres to the hive pool? Players can evolve naturally if they want, leaving the commander out of their game, or they can give res to the hive pool, and the commander then uses this to shape the team... by allowing players to spawn directly into a needed lifeform, or maybe use the res to assist infestation/building. If commander uses res to build a chamber, the gorge who laid the chamber gets that res back, making it faster for him to place the next chamber. In effect, an "organic" way of re-assigning res between players (like giveres in siege games, but centrally controlled)
<b>#3</b> - Maybe the answer is for the commander role to be somewhat redundant... comepletely unnessesary... but still fun to play. Still keep the ability to manipulate upgrade effectiveness for the life-forms, but then just let the commander become the "hive mind". Create waypoints, see parasited marines and structures on the map, Maybe use the infestation to boost some areas (SC's give a slight "wallhack" when boosted, MC's give a speed boost, DC's obviously heal faster, Oc's fire more rapidly) for a moment. Maybe add the ability to share/reallocate res through the hive/commander. Point is, aliens don't need a commander, can win happily without a commander, but anyone that jumps in the commander spot can provide a helpful over-view that helps the team work together. This idea I think would mean people jump in and out a lot as it suits them (as opposed to 1 marine commander the whole match), which I think is fine, except that you don't want people abusing the upgrade sliders. To combat that, make it that the sliders take time to re-adjust, maybe 2 minutes, and if the player jumps out before it's complete, they slide slowly back to neutral.
<b>#footnote</b> - Like someone said a couple posts back... Alien gameplay is significantly different to marine which is one of the cool things about NS1. Adding an alien commander seems to make it less unique. However, since the devs are opting to create an alien commander role, I think we should try to help, come up with ways of making it work but still be unique enough to keep the NS1 appeal. If with all their effort, and all our input, it's still a bad idea, then at least we tried, and we have the tried and tested NS1 style to fall back to. I don't actually know if anything I've thought of myself or anything I've read on these forums would be "better" than the current alien style, but I do see that there is room for improvement, so if we must change the style, lets try to introduce improvements!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#1...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seems like a far more flexible approach. Don't know if I like the idea of 'eating' an egg to turn into something else, but I see what you mean. Players would have the option by simply morphing into whatever mold is provided by the commander. In that sense it's a little bit like the commander dropping weapons. You get a 'first come first serve' style of upgrading the team, which may or may not be a good idea. Smells too much like symmetry for me personally to like it. :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#2...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well you're assuming your typical player is going to be generous and competent (player can't be a new player as they wouldn't know what you mean by 'sharing' resources). Most players would prefer to manage their own resources, unfortunately. To support teamplay, you have to first make it advantageous in gameplay and then you'll see the better players doing it because that's what works, and seeing how most players consider themselves better than a random player (or alien commander), they'd prefer to choose the class themself.
Plus, it doesn't sound like you're giving yourself much of a choice. If the commander spends 10 resources to make you evolve into a gorge when you're already an onos, is it going to force you to do it or is it going to ask? Perhaps I could see it working for clan matches, but remember that it only works for marine team because marines can't physically upgrade without the help of the commander so they're happy to get what they're given.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#3...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if an alien commander as such would pull more weight than if he played as a normal player. I don't think that is the task of the alien commander or else I don't think it would be done in the first place.
#4. I'm sure it's been considered already, but what if the alien commander was simply an evolved gorge. In that, I mean make an upgrade of about 20 resources for a gorge to evolve into hive commander. In this sense, consider it like a master gorge. It would be the only one to be able to put up hives for example and it would move very slowly. If it dies, another gorge can spend 20 resources and upgrade to the position. Since only one can be the 'queen' as it were at any given moment, the alien team should be able to 'kick' the commander which would essentially unevolve the current queen and prevent that player from evolving to queen again for a short time. The display for the queen would be a mix between first person view and map overlay in which the queen can place waypoints and set objectives. I would go so far as to allow the queen to switch views to that of any other player with a pain indicator if it were ever shot at as to know when to return to its body.
Playing on this idea a bit, think it would be a neat idea to give this queen some defense mechanisms. Had the idea of one in which the queen grows a temporary carpace which stacks on up to 2000 armor, making it difficult to kill by a lone soldier (though it would render all other abilities unusable and would halt any movement for a short period). Another idea for an ability would be some sort of psychic attack on a player, which if done right would add a lot of visual effects to the player's screen making it difficult if not impossible to aim correctly (again, idea being you wouldn't want to be caught alone with the queen).
Probably won't happen, but I had to say it for the awesome factor. :P
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't actually know if anything I've thought of myself or anything I've read on these forums would be "better" than the current alien style, but I do see that there is room for improvement, so if we must change the style, lets try to introduce improvements!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Now all we have to do is agree to a consensus on what, if any, improvements need to be made to NS2 by the general community and we're done. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1715950:date=Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Smells too much like symmetry for me personally to like it. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes that makes me cringe also
<!--quoteo(post=1715950:date=Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you're assuming your typical player is going to be generous and competent<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not actually... I'm suggesting that the commander role stay "optional", so even if no one bothers to part with resources, it won't nessesarily hurt the game, just like not having a commander now doesn't nessesarily hurt the aliens. BUT if players do give to the "hive" pool, then the comm can use that to balance out or better guide the whole team. Like "investing" in building by growing chambers on behalf of the gorge who planted it, returning the res to said gorge. I've had games where there was no oppurtunity for me to plant any chambers that would be useful, and I wasn't a good enough player to fade or onos, so I had 100 res and nothing useful to do with it. If I could give that to the hive... this opens up options.
<!--quoteo(post=1715950:date=Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus, it doesn't sound like you're giving yourself much of a choice. If the commander spends 10 resources to make you evolve into a gorge when you're already an onos, is it going to force you to do it or is it going to ask?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The "workable" solution would be something like the locker idea for marines. Commander gets to grant you a free-life-form at the hive. You can run back to the hive to use it, or simply spawn straight into it after death. Sure, he could grant you a gorge life-form in place of your current onos... but would you run back to hive just to get a free downgrade? Well... if the res difference from the onos form added to the hive pool.... maybe you would? Player can ignore the "gift", but there is no penalty for accepting it, and at least a speed advantage of accepting (accepting means little to no evolution time)
<!--quoteo(post=1715950:date=Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#4. I'm sure it's been considered already, but what if the alien commander was simply an evolved gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been trying to think of ways to make this work. I think having the "queen" need to re-locate to build a hive adds a level of difficulty that isn't fair on the aliens.... unless it's indestructable! What if the player is "really" inside the hive, but has the option to go first person wherever there's infestation, as a kind of psychic ghost mode. Then playing as the hive mind, the queen can dip in and out of first person, acting as a "super gorge". This super gorge can push infestation, boost buildings in it's vicinity, "reclaim" chambers, and maybe even perform some sort of "beacon" or "phase gate" role, like maybe a nydlisk tunnel thing from starcraft. Limit the super-gorge to being effective in infestation only, and perhaps give it the unique task of spawning new hives (with or without the need to get infestation there first, depending on gameplay balance).
Queen in first person is invisible to marines, but provides a kind of "wall hack" shared view for anything she sees. Also, around the hive, she has a limited defensive ability. I'd like this to give the aliens the kind of turtle options that marines currently enjoy, but even just abilities that can tackle a single marine scout would be useful. Ideally something like web targeted in FPS and shot from the hive would give the hive a great defensive boost while still being vulnerable.
Every hive spawned could have an additional queen, with the same influence on infestation, the same defensive ability for it's own hive, and a portal/beacon option when infestation is involved back to the hive it's in.
Again, I could see that no-one doing this won't nessesarily lose the game for the aliens, but would definately get them working together where they have the queen advantage. Also, it would be a fun role to play.
Comments
I like that idea, because it differentiates the marine commander from the alien commander. They would take on unique roles in that way.
Put simply, adding options for changing the face of the battlefield makes for a deeper experience. Right now the original NS is pretty dynamic... but... the game is so well played out everyone is aware of the "pendulum of power" that a NS game has. A majority of games swing towards the aliens to start. It's up to the aliens to topple that swing over to a win. If the marines get a chance to push the pendulum back (Or even just stop it), the game mostly, eventually, goes to the marines. I actually like this, and to me it suits the personality of the teams (Aliens infest, marines turtle)
Giving the aliens the ability to push out infestation (Via gorge spray, or chamber support) is a valid way for aliens to weaken the effectiveness of marine turtling.
Shut off lights in surrounding areas
Make some intersections more alien friendly (Like disable lifts, conceal hiding places etc)
Undo weld points (Or let aliens gum up a door)
Provide cover for egging
Infested areas make alien sounds that distract the marines (Like random skulk footsteps, egg evolving sounds, anything that might make a marine check his 6 and fire at something that isn't you)
Marines walk slower in infested areas (This is an obvious suggestion that's probably too unbalancing, and therefore a bad idea)
Infested areas can be webbed but since it's under the infestation, marines can't see it
Imagine maps that have each area change in tactic as each side claims it. Infested, it's opened up for alien advantage (vents accessable, hiding places, ladders blocked/disabled). Powered up, it's open for marine advantage (viewing windows to see incoming, security cameras available, vents closed off, back rooms accessable).
And the opposite can be true... What about maps where claiming a spot gives the advantage to the enemy? Infected areas leave doors wide open and fill the room with light, but closes vents. Powered up areas cause the vents to open up and fill the room with smoke, creates a "airlock" entrance being a double door system that is the only way for marines in and out. It's easy to get that area, but hard to hold it.
Sorry but I don't play this game for the kill count, I play it for the surprises. This is one game I don't mind losing at because even a lost game can be satisfying by doing something unexpected that kinda almost coulda worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You and me are on the same train of thought.
If I want to kill alot of people or just have a dynamic DM id go play CS:S or TF2
Put simply, adding options for changing the face of the battlefield makes for a deeper experience. Right now the original NS is pretty dynamic... but... the game is so well played out everyone is aware of the "pendulum of power" that a NS game has. A majority of games swing towards the aliens to start. It's up to the aliens to topple that swing over to a win. If the marines get a chance to push the pendulum back (Or even just stop it), the game mostly, eventually, goes to the marines. I actually like this, and to me it suits the personality of the teams (Aliens infest, marines turtle)
Giving the aliens the ability to push out infestation (Via gorge spray, or chamber support) is a valid way for aliens to weaken the effectiveness of marine turtling.
Shut off lights in surrounding areas
Make some intersections more alien friendly (Like disable lifts, conceal hiding places etc)
Undo weld points (Or let aliens gum up a door)
Provide cover for egging
Infested areas make alien sounds that distract the marines (Like random skulk footsteps, egg evolving sounds, anything that might make a marine check his 6 and fire at something that isn't you)
Marines walk slower in infested areas (This is an obvious suggestion that's probably too unbalancing, and therefore a bad idea)
Infested areas can be webbed but since it's under the infestation, marines can't see it
Imagine maps that have each area change in tactic as each side claims it. Infested, it's opened up for alien advantage (vents accessable, hiding places, ladders blocked/disabled). Powered up, it's open for marine advantage (viewing windows to see incoming, security cameras available, vents closed off, back rooms accessable).
And the opposite can be true... What about maps where claiming a spot gives the advantage to the enemy? Infected areas leave doors wide open and fill the room with light, but closes vents. Powered up areas cause the vents to open up and fill the room with smoke, creates a "airlock" entrance being a double door system that is the only way for marines in and out. It's easy to get that area, but hard to hold it.
Sorry but I don't play this game for the kill count, I play it for the surprises. This is one game I don't mind losing at because even a lost game can be satisfying by doing something unexpected that kinda almost coulda worked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is all just awesome :D and its what i've always hoped from ns2
However, probably the most 'action' orientated role of the marine commander is the micro-management, resupplying and maintenance of his men, constantly med packing and dealing out weapons and ammo to keep his men in the fight. How can this translate over to an alien commander? If NS2 lifeforms are anything like their NS1 counterparts, resupplying from the commander is out, they manage their own healing. The 'spellcasting' idea is interesting, could the alien commander drop something like umbra to protect attacking or retreating teammates? Maybe a 'frenzy' like ability akin to the marine catalyst pack? I feel that this is the area that (if the alien commander is going to take a more permanent position in the game like the marine counterpart) needs the most thought.
Lastly, of course, there is the subject of the infestation, this is something where the macro-management aspect of commanding comes into play. Where the marine commander will be constantly trying to keep his men in order and issuing orders on multiple fronts, the alien commander will be managing direction of where lifeforms should attack, trying to push the infestation as far forward as possible to make room for new hives, while disrupting the 'powergrid' on the offensive. The more 'defensive' base-building aspect will be that of (painting?) directing infestation (telling gorges where to "spray" infestation?).
Of course, this is all mere conjecture, I don't know how the alien commander will play out. But from a meta-game point of view, I see the two commanders as having the same key building blocks that make up their roles, yet still remaining vastly differnt in their methods.
My incorrect what?
It's ironic that the aliens are dependant on players co-operating and marines are dependant on the commander. Wouldn't you think that aliens with their "hive mind" would be more focused than humans? The way the alien team handles resources in NS1 works the way it is as far as I can see, and I can't think of any real problems that this idea solves. All it does is encourage the aliens to work together in the same way the marine comm does.
Still... Infestation management is an interesting solution to the hive commander problem. So the Alien Commander can.... erm.... Influence... building production?
The Marine commander is all Dictate. Have this item. Build this structure. The Commander in effect hands out resources. The alien commander can be about influence. Make <this> area more attactive to players. Chambers grow faster in <this> room right now. Our upgrades are currently about stealth and speed. Alien Commander isn't about handing out resources, but maybe about adjusting where resources are best spent by the player?
Alien commander gets controls designed to interact with the hive and the infestation. Changing things in the hive influences what upgrade strengths players have, or maybe what lifeforms are available to evolve into at any given part of the game. Interacting with Infestation should be a way of focusing the team. Infestation interaction could be clicking on the area that you want growth to happen. Or the Alien Commander can make some parts of the infestation have healing properties, like at the edge of the marine zone, start growing healing bulbs out of the infestation that aliens can eat as health packs, or grow evolution sacks near the hive or in some other area that's strategically important. I like what Charisma said about "painting". The Alien commander has a set amount of growth he can paint onto infestation. By default, all infested areas have equal growth speeds. However, the commander can paint over some infestation so that this area is a higher priority. As one area is painted, other areas fade... Like moving blood to injured parts of the body. Any painting that focusses on one area will slowly even out again (over like 3 minutes the whole infested area goes back to neutral). The Comm can also paint a little to the west, a little to the north, to boost 2 attack or defence fronts half as effectively as 1. Boosted infestation will grow further out, weakened infestation retreats. So it's all give and take. Increase the activity of one area (whole rooms or just specific chambers, depending on the size of the brush?) and it has several effects. Hyper-active areas are visually hyper-active, maybe brighter colors and/or movement and/or growing organic sounds increasing in volume and frequency so that area is obviously more lively. Chambers in that area have bonuses applied, for example, OC's fire at an increased rate, DC's heal at an increased rate, SC's... ummm... go more invisible?, supercharged MC's can be destinations like a PG. Chambers build faster in lively areas. And infestation grows faster and further around lively areas. Maybe include limitations like, you can only affect infestation that is connected to a hive. You can only build chambers on infestation, and gorges can create infestation anywhere so they can build in new areas, but the hive can't influence it until the 2 areas touch.
This is just a concept though.... Making it practical is a different story.
An alternative could be that the hive commander has control of resources. Players use the interface to say where they want the resources to go, but the commander has the final say on which players have the right idea....
From top to bottom, Could work out something like this:
Resource towers feed back to a central pool of resources.
Hive commander has controls that shape the resource allocation, and players who support the commanders plan are the most efficient
Resources have 2 destinations, Players and structures
To start with, the only lifeform that can spawn is skulk
Evolving can only happen in hives, or in gestation chambers grown on infestation like other chambers.
Players who gorge can seed buildings, but this uses no res. The commander applies the res (opposite to marine style)
Commander gets to say what areas get to have res applied... Lively areas that the commander paints will have resources fed into them to grow seeds into working chambers.
Building starts with the gorges. Gorges can spray infestation to start new or spread faster, and they can seed existing infestation with chambers. It's then up to the hive commander to funnel resources into that area to start the chambers growing. Maybe half built chambers are completely active, but only half as effective, so aliens don't have to build everything to 100% completion.
Commanders would need to be able to ignore idiot gorges, so if a gorge is making stupid placements, the commander needs to be able to tick "don't waste res on this gorges buildings" for that player". Alternatively, the commander can choose a smaller brush size, and paint only the very specific chambers he wants to grow, starving the dumb ones.
In a good team, the commander can be a little lazy, and just paint a whole area as lively. Effectively saying "Concentrate here, in this room/corridor", or "This is our front-lines, make a push here". Gorges (that aren't on the commanders blacklist) would want to rush there to support the push, planting chambers that will grow fast.
Of course there is a limit to the amount of area that can be made fertile. Increasing production in one area takes strength from other areas making them vulnerable.
That lets the commander guide expansion while still being ultimately reliant on the players. The other half of resource management is player evolution...
I read somewhere that the hive would grow eggs that players spawn out of. The commander could drop eggs containing resources. A player can eat the egg for resources and evolve with that. Comm can drop 3 eggs of 30 res which gives 3 players enough res for lerks. Or 2 eggs of 40 res for fade. If a player chooses lerk instead, the hive gets the unused resources back. Or maybe comm can create a gestation sack that players can jump into like a ready room and the players can choose what they want to come out as. Then the comm can grant or deny depending on the player's ability, available resources, and personal choice.
OR... Each player has a level of trust per game. This grows as the game progresses, maybe the more kills you have, the more you're trusted. Or maybe as you perform commander tasks, your trust increases. As your trust increases, you can evolve into better life-forms (you get to use more resources). Commander has full control over the trust list, and can grant some players full access to lifeforms and limit others to skulks or lerks. This would work better if it was negotiable. For instance... Maybe gestation can only happen when the commander grows a gestation chamber out of infestation. Then players can jump into the gestation chamber, and chose one of the life-forms they are entitled to. While they're waiting to gestate (along with half of their team), they can click on another life-form to request it. The commander's list then shows "Player x is trusted to lerk, but requests fade" (not in words obviously, something intuitive). The commander can ignore the request or grant. If granted, the player pops out as a fade. If ignored, the player either stays in and waits, or gets to select one of the lifeforms he is allowed to use, in this case popping out as a lerk.
The Commander might also be able to set a "desired life form compliment". Like 10% onos, 60% fade, 30% lerk. Based on your level of trust, you get to chose what life-form to be as long as the team is unbalanced. As a crap player, I jump in to the gestation chamber and can only pick Lerk (or have nothing at all cause I'm so bad). As a good player, you can jump in and choose Onos. If 10% of the team is already onos, then you can only choose Fade and under, because that's the priority that the commander has indicated. What will naturally happen is that good players won't always want to evolve right away, so they can chose to forfeit the onos to someone else. The whole system is driven by the commander and is simply a balancing act to suit the current situation and resource availability.
Negotiations between players and commanders can be more automatic though. A player can chose what he wants to be next even if the commander says we don't need it. If it is available, bam, the res is his, and the next time you die, or jump in a gestation pod, your get that life-form. If it's not available immediately, then the res gets given later when it does become available. The player can then evolve. If the player changes his mind, he can either select another life-form that is or is not available, the resources are refunded, and the process starts again (res given as soon as life-form is available to player)
And of course the commander can be a real nazi, and force everyone to skulk until there is enough res for a onos rush, or he can be a full on hippy, and let all players evolve into anything they want, using up all the res and losing the game...
Giving commander control over resource allocation could work... One problem with NS1 is players hording res and neglecting to build anything. Another problem is players evolving to higher life-forms at different times, instead of levelling up together. Both of these things can still be a problem and/or option with the above concept, but it's more likely that having a commander would get the team working together, following the commanders breadcrumbs.
More speed / less armor that kinda thing.
Skulk tank anyone? :D
I really cannot see how an alien commander would play out without it overlapping with the function of the marine commander. I suggest to keep both sides really different from each other. So if the aliens are to have a commander, i prefer it having rather different function than that of the marines. Perhaps a spell caster like some have suggested.
Actually I do like your ideas. For the most part that's how I'm imagining the role of the alien commander to be like. The 'painting' idea is interesting and there seems to be strong evidence to support the idea that most of the support coming from the comm comes directly from the infestation, so yes healing 'bulbs' grown from the infestation would heal only aliens who have control over a portion of the map. Inversely, the marines seem to have control over everything initially and then lose it as the infestation enters, which means health pack and ammo drops may only be possible in un-infested areas.
As for your idea on forcing alien classes, I like that a lot. I don't think I would allow the commander to completely prevent a player from going a particular lifeform, but rather I'd play to the typical impatient ns player who wants to get in the heat of battle as soon as possible. By that I mean, that if you really wanted to go a life form which the comm doesn't want you to go, you could do so, but it'd take you twice as long to evolve, whereas if you spawn the life form the comm wants you to go, you could evolve up to twice as fast as you would otherwise (granted that at that point any other life form takes twice as long to evolve, so it may not be the smartest idea). Though I think it would work well since I'm thinking half of all natural selection players would pick the lifeform emphasized by the commander simply to get to play sooner, or if not that, a class like the skulk which has minimal resource wastefulness but one can play immediately rather than evolve at all.
1 - Focused Mind, has three different ranks, costs from 5-15-30res.
If an the commander at the time, goes in and gets this can only start with rank 1 at first, until a certain amount of time, or until a new hive is up.
What this could do is say if a celerity skulk and a silence skulk are side by side, they each get a portion of the others talent. so say if you want a to do an ambush and you have 3 skulks with sillence, and 2 with celerity, the 3 with silence would get an aditional 3-5% speed boost. If they are near the 2 with celerity, and the 2 with celrity if close to the other skulks would get a type of aura or whatever which would make them more silent by a certain amount. That way making team work is even moreso important with skulks and other classes. Rank 2 and rank 3 upgrades for that could be either, increases the stats by a certain amount and/or allows you to merge 2 upgrades you have with 2 upgrades which another team member has. (skulk with silence/focus, one with cloaking/silence, you get a small buff of each.)
2 - Improve Chambers - again, ranks 1-3. different costs.
Commander reaserches this, and with this, for the first rank, it increases one of your stats (by whichever chamber is dropped)
So, say if you're team goes with Movement Chambers. Commander gets this, you go with celerity, while gestating, it gives you the option of whether or not, you wish to incease your celrity by a certain stat, or silence/adren by a certain amount. rank 2 and 3 allows you to put more points into wherever. Each point you put into a certain increase, can also cost a certain amount of res. Wouldn't stack with the Focused mind. Would be more of a, solo upgrade.
3 - no clue yet, but something that has to do with the amount a hive heals it's self, or reduces damage taken if near a hive by a certain amount of increaes overall stats. Etc.
Small idea i thought would be neat to have. I didn't really think too long about each of the upgrades it's all just random thoughts about each.
The focused mind idea isn't bad, but I think the synergy with grouping should be boosted just a little more (granted, not too much) and perhaps regulated in the sense that benefits from multiple aliens with the same upgrades don't stack (so you get lame tactics like regeneration gorge orgy).
I've been in NS1 games on the kharra side and won, where our team said virtually nothing the entire time. If you know the signs, you can help your team out without someone telling you how to (but communication does help a lot, I'm just pointing out a difference between kharra and marines in NS1)
That's my two cents. The great appeal of the game to me was this huge difference between the opposing sides, yet the balance that existed even given these large differences. If I got bored of kharra I would play marine, and it was like playing a totally different game.
I've been in NS1 games on the kharra side and won, where our team said virtually nothing the entire time. If you know the signs, you can help your team out without someone telling you how to (but communication does help a lot, I'm just pointing out a difference between kharra and marines in NS1)
That's my two cents. The great appeal of the game to me was this huge difference between the opposing sides, yet the balance that existed even given these large differences. If I got bored of kharra I would play marine, and it was like playing a totally different game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
Then they'd be off by 1... :)
LOL sorry. Truth is the original post is twice as long... I actually re-read it like 3 times to edit what doesn't make sense and re-word where ever I repeat myself (happens a lot)
So yes... good advice ;)
<b>This post has 3 slight variations on existing ideas and 1 footnote</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1715668:date=Jul 4 2009, 09:06 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 4 2009, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By that I mean, that if you really wanted to go a life form which the comm doesn't want you to go, you could do so, but it'd take you twice as long to evolve, whereas if you spawn the life form the comm wants you to go, you could evolve up to twice as fast as you would otherwise (granted that at that point any other life form takes twice as long to evolve, so it may not be the smartest idea). Though I think it would work well since I'm thinking half of all natural selection players would pick the lifeform emphasized by the commander simply to get to play sooner, or if not that, a class like the skulk which has minimal resource wastefulness but one can play immediately rather than evolve at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes a lot of sense.... I like it more than my "forced template" idea because this idea sounds more "organic", which is very topical for aliens.
<b>#1</b> - I read somewhere that the nymphs drop eggs... or their corpses become eggs, or something... But what if... Commander has sliders that shape the desired team life-forms for the moment, and then the game uses this "template" or "shape" to drop eggs that match this. Players can then evolve into these lifeforms by getting into the eggs or eating the eggs or something. If there are lots of lerks and the commander wants some fades, then the game stops dropping lerk eggs and drops fade eggs.
<b>#2</b> - A different idea entirely, what if players get NS1 style res distribution, but can giveres to the hive pool? Players can evolve naturally if they want, leaving the commander out of their game, or they can give res to the hive pool, and the commander then uses this to shape the team... by allowing players to spawn directly into a needed lifeform, or maybe use the res to assist infestation/building. If commander uses res to build a chamber, the gorge who laid the chamber gets that res back, making it faster for him to place the next chamber. In effect, an "organic" way of re-assigning res between players (like giveres in siege games, but centrally controlled)
<b>#3</b> - Maybe the answer is for the commander role to be somewhat redundant... comepletely unnessesary... but still fun to play. Still keep the ability to manipulate upgrade effectiveness for the life-forms, but then just let the commander become the "hive mind". Create waypoints, see parasited marines and structures on the map, Maybe use the infestation to boost some areas (SC's give a slight "wallhack" when boosted, MC's give a speed boost, DC's obviously heal faster, Oc's fire more rapidly) for a moment. Maybe add the ability to share/reallocate res through the hive/commander. Point is, aliens don't need a commander, can win happily without a commander, but anyone that jumps in the commander spot can provide a helpful over-view that helps the team work together. This idea I think would mean people jump in and out a lot as it suits them (as opposed to 1 marine commander the whole match), which I think is fine, except that you don't want people abusing the upgrade sliders. To combat that, make it that the sliders take time to re-adjust, maybe 2 minutes, and if the player jumps out before it's complete, they slide slowly back to neutral.
<b>#footnote</b> - Like someone said a couple posts back... Alien gameplay is significantly different to marine which is one of the cool things about NS1. Adding an alien commander seems to make it less unique. However, since the devs are opting to create an alien commander role, I think we should try to help, come up with ways of making it work but still be unique enough to keep the NS1 appeal. If with all their effort, and all our input, it's still a bad idea, then at least we tried, and we have the tried and tested NS1 style to fall back to. I don't actually know if anything I've thought of myself or anything I've read on these forums would be "better" than the current alien style, but I do see that there is room for improvement, so if we must change the style, lets try to introduce improvements!
Seems like a far more flexible approach. Don't know if I like the idea of 'eating' an egg to turn into something else, but I see what you mean. Players would have the option by simply morphing into whatever mold is provided by the commander. In that sense it's a little bit like the commander dropping weapons. You get a 'first come first serve' style of upgrading the team, which may or may not be a good idea. Smells too much like symmetry for me personally to like it. :)
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Well you're assuming your typical player is going to be generous and competent (player can't be a new player as they wouldn't know what you mean by 'sharing' resources). Most players would prefer to manage their own resources, unfortunately. To support teamplay, you have to first make it advantageous in gameplay and then you'll see the better players doing it because that's what works, and seeing how most players consider themselves better than a random player (or alien commander), they'd prefer to choose the class themself.
Plus, it doesn't sound like you're giving yourself much of a choice. If the commander spends 10 resources to make you evolve into a gorge when you're already an onos, is it going to force you to do it or is it going to ask? Perhaps I could see it working for clan matches, but remember that it only works for marine team because marines can't physically upgrade without the help of the commander so they're happy to get what they're given.
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I don't know if an alien commander as such would pull more weight than if he played as a normal player. I don't think that is the task of the alien commander or else I don't think it would be done in the first place.
#4. I'm sure it's been considered already, but what if the alien commander was simply an evolved gorge. In that, I mean make an upgrade of about 20 resources for a gorge to evolve into hive commander. In this sense, consider it like a master gorge. It would be the only one to be able to put up hives for example and it would move very slowly. If it dies, another gorge can spend 20 resources and upgrade to the position. Since only one can be the 'queen' as it were at any given moment, the alien team should be able to 'kick' the commander which would essentially unevolve the current queen and prevent that player from evolving to queen again for a short time. The display for the queen would be a mix between first person view and map overlay in which the queen can place waypoints and set objectives. I would go so far as to allow the queen to switch views to that of any other player with a pain indicator if it were ever shot at as to know when to return to its body.
Playing on this idea a bit, think it would be a neat idea to give this queen some defense mechanisms. Had the idea of one in which the queen grows a temporary carpace which stacks on up to 2000 armor, making it difficult to kill by a lone soldier (though it would render all other abilities unusable and would halt any movement for a short period). Another idea for an ability would be some sort of psychic attack on a player, which if done right would add a lot of visual effects to the player's screen making it difficult if not impossible to aim correctly (again, idea being you wouldn't want to be caught alone with the queen).
Probably won't happen, but I had to say it for the awesome factor. :P
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Agreed. Now all we have to do is agree to a consensus on what, if any, improvements need to be made to NS2 by the general community and we're done. :P
Yes that makes me cringe also
<!--quoteo(post=1715950:date=Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well you're assuming your typical player is going to be generous and competent<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not actually... I'm suggesting that the commander role stay "optional", so even if no one bothers to part with resources, it won't nessesarily hurt the game, just like not having a commander now doesn't nessesarily hurt the aliens. BUT if players do give to the "hive" pool, then the comm can use that to balance out or better guide the whole team. Like "investing" in building by growing chambers on behalf of the gorge who planted it, returning the res to said gorge. I've had games where there was no oppurtunity for me to plant any chambers that would be useful, and I wasn't a good enough player to fade or onos, so I had 100 res and nothing useful to do with it. If I could give that to the hive... this opens up options.
<!--quoteo(post=1715950:date=Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plus, it doesn't sound like you're giving yourself much of a choice. If the commander spends 10 resources to make you evolve into a gorge when you're already an onos, is it going to force you to do it or is it going to ask?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "workable" solution would be something like the locker idea for marines. Commander gets to grant you a free-life-form at the hive. You can run back to the hive to use it, or simply spawn straight into it after death. Sure, he could grant you a gorge life-form in place of your current onos... but would you run back to hive just to get a free downgrade? Well... if the res difference from the onos form added to the hive pool.... maybe you would? Player can ignore the "gift", but there is no penalty for accepting it, and at least a speed advantage of accepting (accepting means little to no evolution time)
<!--quoteo(post=1715950:date=Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jul 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1715950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#4. I'm sure it's been considered already, but what if the alien commander was simply an evolved gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been trying to think of ways to make this work. I think having the "queen" need to re-locate to build a hive adds a level of difficulty that isn't fair on the aliens.... unless it's indestructable! What if the player is "really" inside the hive, but has the option to go first person wherever there's infestation, as a kind of psychic ghost mode. Then playing as the hive mind, the queen can dip in and out of first person, acting as a "super gorge". This super gorge can push infestation, boost buildings in it's vicinity, "reclaim" chambers, and maybe even perform some sort of "beacon" or "phase gate" role, like maybe a nydlisk tunnel thing from starcraft. Limit the super-gorge to being effective in infestation only, and perhaps give it the unique task of spawning new hives (with or without the need to get infestation there first, depending on gameplay balance).
Queen in first person is invisible to marines, but provides a kind of "wall hack" shared view for anything she sees. Also, around the hive, she has a limited defensive ability. I'd like this to give the aliens the kind of turtle options that marines currently enjoy, but even just abilities that can tackle a single marine scout would be useful. Ideally something like web targeted in FPS and shot from the hive would give the hive a great defensive boost while still being vulnerable.
Every hive spawned could have an additional queen, with the same influence on infestation, the same defensive ability for it's own hive, and a portal/beacon option when infestation is involved back to the hive it's in.
Again, I could see that no-one doing this won't nessesarily lose the game for the aliens, but would definately get them working together where they have the queen advantage. Also, it would be a fun role to play.
Touche. +29 then.