Will it get better?
quatermass
Join Date: 2008-05-06 Member: 64220Members
Join Date: 2008-05-06 Member: 64220Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A Gorge's thoughts</div>I decided to go back to playing NS maps (as an Alien Gorge) after only playing CO maps for many months and I was quickly reminded why I left NS maps in the first place - Sheer frustration.
Is it just me that but no one plays in teams any more?
It's always - go kill some marines and don't bother taking down Resource Towers or building them.
The result is that game after game - the hive soon get over run with marines in full Heavy Armour.
Why don't these people realise that having resource points accumulating is key to being able to evolve and gain abilities for <b>every</b> member.
3 gorges at the start of a round can go into a Hive, build 2xOCs and a RT and quickly capture a hive site in seconds.
They just seem to try to overrun the marines as Skulks in the first 30secs and if that fails then they've lost valuable points and can't afford to go gorge and build RTs.
The result is a slow lingering climb in points trying to keep the Marines off until the Marines finally rush in with HA or JPs with HMG.
So with NS2 getting talking about with aliens commanders and the like. My thought is - what's the point?
When CO maps came along the whole NS game shifted from team work to everyone for themselves. Now even NS maps are played as if they're CO maps.
Gorges currently don't even have the ability to get points from healing other fellow aliens or repairing chambers so probably no wonder why so few people go Gorge.
After all what's the point. Without Gorges you can't have RTs and without RTs you've lost the game.
I've not seen a Gorge rush for years!
Sure I've bought my Special edition NS2. but more out of giving some reward to the developers of NS1 than a dream that it's actually going to get better.
I would dearly love to hear from a developer how they've resolved this massive problem with players not teaming up.
Will it get better?
Is it just me that but no one plays in teams any more?
It's always - go kill some marines and don't bother taking down Resource Towers or building them.
The result is that game after game - the hive soon get over run with marines in full Heavy Armour.
Why don't these people realise that having resource points accumulating is key to being able to evolve and gain abilities for <b>every</b> member.
3 gorges at the start of a round can go into a Hive, build 2xOCs and a RT and quickly capture a hive site in seconds.
They just seem to try to overrun the marines as Skulks in the first 30secs and if that fails then they've lost valuable points and can't afford to go gorge and build RTs.
The result is a slow lingering climb in points trying to keep the Marines off until the Marines finally rush in with HA or JPs with HMG.
So with NS2 getting talking about with aliens commanders and the like. My thought is - what's the point?
When CO maps came along the whole NS game shifted from team work to everyone for themselves. Now even NS maps are played as if they're CO maps.
Gorges currently don't even have the ability to get points from healing other fellow aliens or repairing chambers so probably no wonder why so few people go Gorge.
After all what's the point. Without Gorges you can't have RTs and without RTs you've lost the game.
I've not seen a Gorge rush for years!
Sure I've bought my Special edition NS2. but more out of giving some reward to the developers of NS1 than a dream that it's actually going to get better.
I would dearly love to hear from a developer how they've resolved this massive problem with players not teaming up.
Will it get better?
Comments
So, with NS2, some People will come back. We'll see if that's enough
I would argue heavily that expecting a great deal of teamwork on public servers is probably expecting too much (100's of reasons but inevitable incompetence happens). You can shout, scream, etc @ your teammates, but that will do little as people disregard you as a lunatic fit for the asylum. Happens in every game.
So no, it won't. If you're tired of nonexistent or disjointed teamwork, please join the competitive scene (yes there is one...kinda).
---
...on a side note, try the GuD server (while you will likely get annihilated occasionally, the teamwork there is the best in NA [imho]).
If you want solid games join the "competitive" scene which is really more like a small community of enthusiasts. Join the servers that they play on and you will find yourself never having a dull game. In fact, much of the old community from NS1 is slowly trickling back to GameSurge on IRC. For now, I'd try idling the #naturalselection channel.
All words of wisdom.
I guess I'm asking too much by going to the servers listed in the Steam Servers list.
Most these days are filled with Bots it seems anyway.
So where do I find decent UK servers?
I think the way people play has changed a lot. Not as many vets play as much as they used to, including me. And most servers now, are full of ego-headed admins, that pretty much don't care about anyone else, except other ego-headed admins in their server.
That's why I stopped playing. The people have just changed =/
Hopefully when NS2 comes back, the oldies will come back. I know I will, and there is discussion on my Clan forums that they will be returning as well. So, lets hope!
before CO there was actually alot of teamwork, I was always a gorge, but back then I always had a skulk escort me and defend me when building a hive or getting up basic defenses in key areas and building RTS, when I called for help over 5 skulks would stop everything to come and assist.. I recall one memorable game that lasted 3 hours, and without the teamwork we had we would have lost the game, it was a very epic game and a brilliant end to one.
When CO came out, I was a lone gorge <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> and surviving became alot harder because of this. Games got stupider, teamwork was non existent, people started abusing everyone and even newbie players got the crap ripped out of them, when before CO came out they would have been helped and told how to play..
I am looking forward to ns2, it will be like when ns first came out, everyone huddled next to eachother wondering what is where, who is what. Teamwork will come in hand as the game progresses, I have no doubt that with this power grid system etc that teamwork will come back and everyone will need to play a particular role to ensure they do the best for their race.
What alternate universe did you play NS in? This is more of less what you said: "Natural Selection Classic was amazing on public servers, until a separate game mode was released, then it turned horrible almost overnight."
I never understood why people blame combat for anything related to NS. It's like combat mode is the ultimate scapegoat for stupid players / servers and poor NS classic patch decisions. I could write up a thesis full of points you can't refute, but it's not really worth the time.
In the crowd of the misinformed, hating combat is as cool as thinking Obama is the next Jesus Christ.
I never understood why people blame combat for anything related to NS. It's like combat mode is the ultimate scapegoat for stupid players / servers and poor NS classic patch decisions. I could write up a thesis full of points you can't refute, but it's not really worth the time.
In the crowd of the misinformed, hating combat is as cool as thinking Obama is the next Jesus Christ.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said it happened overnight, but it did happen.. I only played on the australian servers, so I have no idea what the playstyle was like on any other server, but I know that team work was there on the aussie servers, and it was definitely alot less after a few months once CO came along. It was completely noticeable how much people changed and how many good people left after CO took over..
You cant say that CO didnt play a part in the downfall of ns teamwork and gameplay.. Especially in Australia where we had over 100 different servers all full of players before the release of CO, 1 yr after CO came out, it dropped to 20.. and now, in 2009 we have 9.. and only 1 of those 9 servers is EVER full..
while popularity does play a part, the speed at which the servers dropped, and the amount of players who left was unbelievable.. I have a few friends who mentioned that the stupidity that took over when CO came around was a reason for leaving..
You cant say that CO didnt play a part in the downfall of ns teamwork and gameplay.. Especially in Australia where we had over 100 different servers all full of players before the release of CO, 1 yr after CO came out, it dropped to 20.. and now, in 2009 we have 9.. and only 1 of those 9 servers is EVER full..
while popularity does play a part, the speed at which the servers dropped, and the amount of players who left was unbelievable.. I have a few friends who mentioned that the stupidity that took over when CO came around was a reason for leaving..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean in the year 2009 natural selection, a mod for a game released in <b>1998</b>, only has 9 Australian servers? How could I not have seen this before? It's all combat's fault! It totally just clicked in my head. I think we're on the same page now.
Honestly though, the fact that you so strongly equate a decrease in both player quality and playerbase to combat mode, over a period of <i>years</i>, blows my fricken mind. I don't even know what to think.
For NS2, yes, I do believe it will.
A larger player base = more variety of gamers = more opportunity for everyone to find their niche.
Take for example the GUD server.
Lets assume on average that 10% of all videogame plaeyrs want serious, teamwork games.
If you have only 200 or so players playing at any given time (current NS), this means only 20 players want serious games. Enough for 1 server only.
If you have 2000 players on, then that is 10 servers.
But lets say someone wanted to play MvM. The percentage of videogame players that want that is even smaller (1%).
So 2000 players could only support 1 server.
What do all these MvM players do if the population is only 200? One thing they will do is be dissatisfied with the game.
The thing is, with any thing people do, there are many different niches for each individual player. Satifying them all is virtually impossible, but is greatly helped by a large player base.
When it comes down to it, the problem is, our player base is so small that we can't have many servers catering to people's tastes. These "specialty" servers simply cannot exist without a large player base.
The result: more servers trying to cater to the majority of players. In most games, the "majority" are linear minded fools who spawn, run and die all day.
As I said in the beginning, more players = more variety = more niches for people to find = more satified players.
It will get better =).
PS: I haven;t time to reread my post.... I'm actually 40 minutes late now.... I better go....
i stopped playing like half a year ago cos ns is TOO GOOD and taking up time i need for studying.
anyway, here in europe i didn't miss any teamwork. on able and vh1 people worked together just fine.
although ns 3.1 or 3.2 changed something, that made it much harder for teams to make a comeback and change the balance of a match. now games are almost predetermined the first like 10 mins.
here's my try at an analogy:
(previously, it was like having a long stick, say 3m, which is standing up, and you're trying to make it fall in one direction, while it's falling the other team can reverse this, cos the stick is pretty slow. now you replace that stick with a coin, get it?)
what DOESN'T make this better is the stacking, playing ns became like sports betting. you waited for half of players to join, then stacked a team based on the players in it.
though every once in a while you would get even teams. and with a little luck it would become one of those well balanced games that lasts 30-40m+.
but the teamplay was always there imo. aliens helping eachother out, marines going in squads.
I saw the game start to slip when all the CO mods come out like XMENU and BUILDMENU. Yes, those are CO mods, but a lot of people are crossover players, but once CO was rendered useless, I stopped playing, a long with a lot of others. I also think that it made the game a lot less serious, and drew a lot of new people to CO instead, and just made a ton of CO Xmenu fanbois, leaving no one for NS
Of course, finding decent servers in NS1 is probably very difficult to do right now. NS2 will probably have far better servers at least for the first 5 years <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
One of the main Reasons was indeed Combat, since it changed the way the Game <i>HAD</i> to be played, at least through global Variables that where employed for NS_ and CO_ together.
Those Variables where at an delicate Balance, just enough balanced to support the Struggle between Marines and Aliens in Resourcemode.
But Combat slowly pushed the Mod into a more Action oriented Direction. The last Thing I've seen was Games that have been decided in 30~60 Seconds and drew on for 30 to 45 Minutes while Aliens fought a lost Fight and Marines cakewalked through a Park.
Also, while most Pubs had around 20~26 Slots, NS has been geared towards the competive 6v6 Size, adding to the Action Factor.
Not to mention those Punks that where attracted by Sci-Fi Counter Strike and acted like someone had ate their Brain and replaced it with a dead Hamster or something.
All in all, it wasn't fun anymore. It couldn't breath, it was stuck in an infinity loop doomed to repeat the fastest, most promising Tactic over and over and again.
NS thrived on the Deviation of Teams and Tacticas, but more and more of the Competive Ruletset was <i>enforced</i> on Pubs, and that's the Death Sentence for more... generic Players.
As the game kept changing to 2.01 and 3.0, it just felt like a more cramped, claustrophobic game with more complexities.
I don't mind games being complex, but just in the right way, like Dystopia, a popular HL2 mod does.
In saying all this, I'd like to see a more old school NS style.
But of course, the new welding doors idea seems like an amazing idea!
The only thing that always had me annoyed was that I had to `remute` everytime I'd die.
NS was the very first game that tried the whole FPS / RTS hybrid thing. As a result, a lot of its rules were not as effective at promoting teamwork as they should have been. This is nothing to be happy about, but once again: There really was nothing to build on.
I haven't played NS2 yet, but from my conversations with Charlie, he is trying to create a product that is based on the lessons learned from last time.
Of course, the point of playerbase and playstyles stands regardles. There will always be very different motivations of play for different people - NS was always very ambitious in the breadth of its intended appeal, and I doubt this will change. The connected problems will of course be excaberated by a small player base, and become less pronounced if NS2 gets sufficiently popular (here's to hoping!).
A tangentially connected point, though: I see a lot of people in this thread describe a time when the romance with NS was still fresh, and a less satisfying time after, which they ascribe to various reasons - changes in player structure and development decisions being the two most obvious. Folks, I'm not even going to pretend that every design change made over the course of the game was correct (feel free to assume that by this, I'm referring to <i>your</i> Change That Broke NS), but at the end of the day, what your experienced is natural and is going to happen with almost every game, hobby, heck, almost every <i>relationship</i> you'll ever be in. NS2 won't be perfect, either. At the end of the day, the question is whether the enjoyment you get out of it will have been worth what you put into it.
Yes, Each round will be unique, and all the more need to work as a team.
And about the alien commander... NS is known for polar opposite sides in the Marine and Alien sides. The AC vs. the MC, to my belief, will follow that same principle. It will be an effective role on teamwork.
I agree; NS2 will have a honeymoon period too - the community will be fresh and players will evolve with each other. But even after I've played my first 1000 hours of NS2, I hope it will still hold some excitement and a robust community.
before CO there was actually alot of teamwork, I was always a gorge, but back then I always had a skulk escort me and defend me when building a hive or getting up basic defenses in key areas and building RTS, when I called for help over 5 skulks would stop everything to come and assist.. I recall one memorable game that lasted 3 hours, and without the teamwork we had we would have lost the game, it was a very epic game and a brilliant end to one.
When CO came out, I was a lone gorge <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> and surviving became alot harder because of this. Games got stupider, teamwork was non existent, people started abusing everyone and even newbie players got the crap ripped out of them, when before CO came out they would have been helped and told how to play..
I am looking forward to ns2, it will be like when ns first came out, everyone huddled next to eachother wondering what is where, who is what. Teamwork will come in hand as the game progresses, I have no doubt that with this power grid system etc that teamwork will come back and everyone will need to play a particular role to ensure they do the best for their race.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I second this as my experience from the other side of the world from you (UK). I don't despise CO but at the same time I think it did increase the number of res-whoring selfish players dropping into the NS classic servers, playing the game for a quick win and not understanding they need to play as a team for the long game. I also love playing as gorge but got tired of spending all my res on RTs and chambers which were never defended by most of my other "teammates". I'm hoping the power grid design will help force people into realising they need to play it as a team game. Having an alien commander will also help direct and control things, hopefully to the extent of being able to support the under appreciated gorges! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Is it just me that but no one plays in teams any more?
It's always - go kill some marines and don't bother taking down Resource Towers or building them.
The result is that game after game - the hive soon get over run with marines in full Heavy Armour.
Why don't these people realise that having resource points accumulating is key to being able to evolve and gain abilities for <b>every</b> member.
3 gorges at the start of a round can go into a Hive, build 2xOCs and a RT and quickly capture a hive site in seconds.
They just seem to try to overrun the marines as Skulks in the first 30secs and if that fails then they've lost valuable points and can't afford to go gorge and build RTs.
The result is a slow lingering climb in points trying to keep the Marines off until the Marines finally rush in with HA or JPs with HMG.
So with NS2 getting talking about with aliens commanders and the like. My thought is - what's the point?
...
I've not seen a Gorge rush for years!
....
Will it get better?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It almost seems as though your complaining about how marines seems to have better teamwork than alien and its sucks. And then you ask what's the point in having an alien commander. Following your train of thought it would seem like you answered your own question there.
I think you're being overly negative. Game Communities are bound to age and die eventually (mods quicker so even). NS however has been pretty persistent and I think its doing pretty damn well for being such an old mod.
And yes NS2 will be bigger and better.
Bigger: Going retail will be a huge boost for the community seeing as how gamers that play ANY mod. Are but a small chunk of the gamer community pie.
Better: Also lessons learned from NS1 and many games that came out in the last 10 yrs. Should make NS2 better from the get go. Plus being retail and in-house engine means that the makers of the game will make much more time and better control to address problems. Which they where pretty good to begin with during development of NS1.
EDIT typos
Which is why I believe having Alien Commander's will be a very positive step forward for Alien teamwork.
Just my opinion though.
Which is why I believe having Alien Commander's will be a very positive step forward for Alien teamwork.
Just my opinion though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see how.
With Marine commanders they are often ignored and we did try Aliens Comms with Gorges if you remember NS-1.
It didn't work.
Players want rez points, so I say give them a reward for co-op work - give them points when they heal another for example.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
on the scoreboard like for killing and destroying building? cos those are pretty pointless, it's not like exp for healing hive, you won't come closer to the next lvl...
healing for points sounds very wrong to me, you should heal so that your team can win. i've never seen a gorge deny people healing (atleast not any non-newbie gorge).