Will NS2 be less carpal tunnel intensive?
aeroripper
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Anybody else have a hard time with the intense aiming/movement/carpal tunnel required in current NS? I hope in NS2 it will be a bit easier for new (or slower players) to get into the game than it is currently. I know many of the pros of NS love to hone their twitch reflex skills to perform well in the game, but its still a hard game to play if you're not in higher echelons of skill. I am hoping the new game isn't as "quakey" as the current one is.
1) Gameplay elements/mechanics that require skill are good. It gives the people who want to get good at the game a reason to keep playing. This is especially true in the competitive realm, and that is what helps the game going strong for years.
2) Aiming skill isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it should be balanced with other skills so more average players can still do okay. In NS a player of average-below average skill can't hit anything at all even if he tries. He dies A LOT. This is especially tough for new players to stay with the game.
Essentially I am hoping there is a lot more support things (especially marines) can do to help the team than having to have great aim. It should be more slanted towards new players, but have avenues competitive players can pursue to become great. Or maybe I'm just getting too old for this kind of fast game? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
1) Gameplay elements/mechanics that require skill are good. It gives the people who want to get good at the game a reason to keep playing. This is especially true in the competitive realm, and that is what helps the game going strong for years.
2) Aiming skill isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it should be balanced with other skills so more average players can still do okay. In NS a player of average-below average skill can't hit anything at all even if he tries. He dies A LOT. This is especially tough for new players to stay with the game.
Essentially I am hoping there is a lot more support things (especially marines) can do to help the team than having to have great aim. It should be more slanted towards new players, but have avenues competitive players can pursue to become great. Or maybe I'm just getting too old for this kind of fast game? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Comments
Of course stuff like bhop don't remove the fact that an average player is having difficulties hitting on a full speed cele bhop skulk, but at least on relatively equal skill levels the game functions better.
Another helpful feature could be a proper role setup. Not all lifeforms and marine roles have to be twitch intense as long as they have got more to do in the positioning, game sense, adren/ammo management and such. That way you can have the intense quick fights still there. but not everyone is forced to rely on them.
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NS is one of the very few 'quakey' games around that actually aren't part of the Quake series. How many other games combine movement into teamwork or RTS? It might be a good way to stand out from the crowd.
Is it athmosphere or gameplay related that you don't want marines jumping around? I mean, how far can we get with proper animations?
Double jump can go if you ask me, but some more or less aerial dodges might still be nice. The movement + aim combination is a really interesting element of marine play as you can't do both at full effiency simultaneously.
Bhopping can go die in a fire, though. A fire made of poo and nipples.
Nah I rather enjoy the challenge, win or lose. Although I am confused with the term carpal tunnel because if there was a watered-down version of the game you would have to keep your hands in a same position as you would for a fast paced game. Regarding pros vs non-casual, I suggested Reserve Slots and Server Labeling to balance out individual player skill on a server. Here is the link: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104062&hl=" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...=104062&hl=</a> This game is not at par with the same speed as quake is, but at the same time is faster than the traditional tactical FPS that you may be used to.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Gameplay elements/mechanics that require skill are good. It gives the people who want to get good at the game a reason to keep playing. This is especially true in the competitive realm, and that is what helps the game going strong for years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a way its sort of conflicting with your original point. You say that you want the game to be better for casuals so they won't get dommed, but at the same time you recognize that developing a deep skill of the game is very important for the longevity of a particular game. Very difficult thing to balance both.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Aiming skill isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it should be balanced with other skills so more average players can still do okay. In NS a player of average-below average skill can't hit anything at all even if he tries. He dies A LOT. This is especially tough for new players to stay with the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are some other skills that can be balanced out other than aiming?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially I am hoping there is a lot more support things (especially marines) can do to help the team than having to have great aim. It should be more slanted towards new players, but have avenues competitive players can pursue to become great. Or maybe I'm just getting too old for this kind of fast game? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Games can be easy to learn, but difficult to master (see starsiege tribes) and still have a sense of depth and skill development. The problem with your suggestion is that you want NS to take away from the top and give to the bottom, where a better solution would be to separate the players based on a particular playstyle that he or she enjoys, whilst at the same time not restrict either group from developing and learning the game to its highest potential.
CS
1) is based on accuracy at specific times i.e. after recoil dissipates, when the enemy walks into the crosshairs, the moment your strafe speed hits 0
2) accuracy is variable, recoil is signficant, damage:health ratio is high
NS
1) is based on accuracy over continuous, relatively lengthy periods of time
2) accuracy is constant, recoil is nonexistent, damage:health ratio is low
These factors combined leads to a stressed wrist at a constant level in NS in order to maintain tracking on an alien while the level of wrist stress in CS is much, much lower due to shorter engagement times and variable wrist tension.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of the CS aiming system. Not only is it less strenuous on the wrist, but the high lethality of weapons in CS goes a long way in making things easier for noobs but still skill-based for veterans. Noobs can spray or lucky headshot their way to 1:2 ratios and still maintain interest in the game while veterans land consistent and numerous headshots to hit 2:1 or 3:1 ratios (in pubs). In NS, it seems like noobs achieve closer to 1:5 ratios and pros get 10:1 ratios (factoring in higher tech/lifeforms). One skilled fade or jetpacker can easily dictate a 15v15 game and can completely ruin the experience of a new player.
In my perfect world, the CS aiming system would be directly ported to NS and I would be extremely satisfied with the result. It would be 1) easier on the wrists 2) more approachable for noobs (NS noobs feel absolutely worthless) 3) there is a certain sensation of power with CS firearms that NS is lacking (lmg).
The problem you describe little to do with the aiming system, but rather follows along with what Firewater was saying. What if NS implemented a system like CS? Then everyone would be complaining that the pros can headshot skulks/fades/whatever and people who currently rape pubs would be gods. In either system you describe, the pros will always have higher ratios than the pubbers because they're better players. The amount of damage each bullet does will not change the fact that one person is better than someone else.
A large player base will dilute the competitive players so that they're not all jammed into a handful of servers along with all the casuals, or like Firewater was saying, a system for admins to self-label servers will direct players of varying skills to whichever server they want to play on.
If you want 'noob friendly' then keep the current system as at least now noobs can't get headshot'ed as fades.
Nuff said.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Besides a CS aiming system in NS would be horrible. The great skill balance between tracking(in NS) goes along with the movement based actions an alien player can take.
In my mind, any truly unnatural marine movements have got to go. Double jump and backwards jumping, and bite force jumps come to mind. There is not a single thing more frustrating than successfully closing in on a marine only to have him use your bite force to jump back faster than you can move.
I think your description of the two games is accurate enough. My issue with porting the CS twitch-skill aiming to a NS game lies with the game revolving around two fundamentally different sides, where one side is melee and twitch based and the other is ranged and require good tracking skills. This is opposed to two twich-skill based ranged teams facing each other. I think the shotgun marine against skulk scenario in NS demonstrates the problem well.
Interesting, I played CAL I CS for 2 seasons and I never had a problem transitioning to NS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS
1) is based on accuracy at specific times i.e. after recoil dissipates, when the enemy walks into the crosshairs, the moment your strafe speed hits 0
2) accuracy is variable, recoil is signficant, damage:health ratio is high
NS
1) is based on accuracy over continuous, relatively lengthy periods of time
2) accuracy is constant, recoil is nonexistent, damage:health ratio is low
These factors combined leads to a stressed wrist at a constant level in NS in order to maintain tracking on an alien while the level of wrist stress in CS is much, much lower due to shorter engagement times and variable wrist tension.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who complains of any CRI (Computer Related Injury) needs to either play less (or not at all) or grow some skin. Sorry.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I'm a huge fan of the CS aiming system. Not only is it less strenuous on the wrist, but the high lethality of weapons in CS goes a long way in making things easier for noobs but still skill-based for veterans. Noobs can spray or lucky headshot their way to 1:2 ratios and still maintain interest in the game while veterans land consistent and numerous headshots to hit 2:1 or 3:1 ratios (in pubs). In NS, it seems like noobs achieve closer to 1:5 ratios and pros get 10:1 ratios (factoring in higher tech/lifeforms). One skilled fade or jetpacker can easily dictate a 15v15 game and can completely ruin the experience of a new player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS is more tactical FPS shooter, NS has always been more action oriented. The CS system will not work in NS because of the required speed of the Aliens to get close to the marines for a viable combat opportunity. Ratios in NS mean very little because of the dynamics of players joining late game. A newb can get a 10:1 ratio if he joins the marines when they have full tech and the aliens are down to one hive. A pro can join the alien side in said game and get significantly less than 1:1 ratio.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my perfect world, the CS aiming system would be directly ported to NS and I would be extremely satisfied with the result. It would be 1) easier on the wrists 2) more approachable for noobs (NS noobs feel absolutely worthless) 3) there is a certain sensation of power with CS firearms that NS is lacking (lmg).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3) It would completely break the game as either side would have total domination over the other (depending on damage ratios).
NS is not a tactical shooter, it is an action FPS with RTS elements/strategy. If the devs change that foundation, they will not have to worry about the skill gap, because there will not be a significant enough player base to address that issue.
Who are you referring to?
NS1 was as I discussed in another post from an older style of FPS. It's about quick movements and positioning, but the battles did not involve instagibbing. This is what sets it apart from say CS and CoD4 where it's all about cover and surprises and first to headshot wins. It's more about the movement and keeping a bead on the enemy while they try to outmaneuver you in inventive ways, not about hiding behind cover and finding that 1 pixel that appears on the enemy's hitbox (America's Army anyone?).
Granted, this may imply some other setbacks. With the melee component our CS players may feel out of place. The instant lethality of lead isn't there (personally a strong point imo, but again the CS players may beg to differ). Also, these types of games involve advanced movement to help navigate the rooms, such as wall walking. Bhop is also a hallmark of this genre, even with all the arguing we keep having about it.
Well plain and simple is that NS is a more complicated game than CS. It does take more effort to learn and establish some sort of mastery in NS. Again, putting a CS style aiming into NS would ruin the mechanics of its core gameplay. As far as the fade with AK-47 vs the LMG. I have no problem encountering a fade with an LMG for two reasons.
1)Sometimes I can win.
2)If I cannot win I maybe able to drive the fade away so that he/she has to heal, thus buying time for myself and potentially teammates.
Your experience with CS is that whenever two players encounter each other, one must die. This is not the case in NS where the more powerful units/faster units can retreat to heal up and live to fight another day. Groups of marines can withdraw from a spot that is not favorable to them at the moment. Fades/lerks can flee if they are out matched.
Because of that experience, your judgment is clouded because you are ignoring the other mechanics of the game that revolve around classic NS1 style.
I was talking about the original post which is a total joke, anyone that doesn't see that (including the person that posted it) is just part of the joke.
lol, I don't literally have carpal tunnel, but was making light of the fact about how 'intense' aiming is in NS compared to other games. My idea was to expand on roles that newer/crappy players can do until they get better with the game (skilled aiming). In NS1 you essentially have welding teammates, and building base as the marine support roles. I don't count capping RTs because if you go out alone you usually will need good aim to fend off a skulk or 2. Commanding could be improved to enable newer players to ease into it better. There has to be a better way to keep players interested instead of dying constantly for small mistakes. Current NS is very cutthroat and the need to constantly use physically stressful aiming doesn't help keep new players with the game.
Heh, I think I wrote this thread after not playing NS for a while, and released how intimidating it is for new players. Essentially it should be more inviting from the get go for casual players than the current NS is, but still have good depth to it. I am thinking NS games will always be more of a 'niche' game instead of one all different kinds of players can pickup and enjoy. Maybe its just not going to be like L4D or TF2 in terms of accessibility?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a 7+ year veteran of Counter-Strike, I've always been surprised (and frustrated) by how little "CS aim" translates to "NS aim". While I could pop heads in CS with ease, it took me many, many months to track skilled fades with any sort of accuracy. The best way I could compare the two systems is:
CS
1) is based on accuracy at specific times i.e. after recoil dissipates, when the enemy walks into the crosshairs, the moment your strafe speed hits 0
2) accuracy is variable, recoil is signficant, damage:health ratio is high
NS
1) is based on accuracy over continuous, relatively lengthy periods of time
2) accuracy is constant, recoil is nonexistent, damage:health ratio is low
<b>These factors combined leads to a stressed wrist at a constant level in NS in order to maintain tracking on an alien while the level of wrist stress in CS is much, much lower due to shorter engagement times and variable wrist tension.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I mean. I am hoping there are ways to improve upon this somehow so aiming still requires skill but not so much physical stress to maintain aiming. I'm hoping there is a solution for this without having to resort to things like the 'smart gun' from aliens. Many of you have valid points, and it could just be me not being able to keep at that level of play (or even staying at above average). It's kind of like the difference where you have top Starcraft players that are able to have 300apm in their late teens/early twenties, but can't physically perform at that same level as they age and get into their later 20s. I suppose it depends on what age group you're trying to target for your game, and I wonder if the NS2 target market will cater again to the teen/early 20s crowd.
Let's not distract ourselves with implementing too many attributes found in other games, and instead focus on what made NS great in its prime, and exploit that.
I hate seeing people complain," We gotta make it easier for noobs!" Of course lets not make the game uber hard and only geared for competitive players, but the huge lack of servers and the simple fact that the game is old is why no one plays it. It IS a great game. It just had its time in the light and now we gotta move on.
Yeah I didn't think he was talking to me. Thanks though Comprox.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Aeroripper)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is exactly what I mean. I am hoping there are ways to improve upon this somehow so aiming still requires skill but not so much physical stress to maintain aiming. I'm hoping there is a solution for this without having to resort to things like the 'smart gun' from aliens. Many of you have valid points, and it could just be me not being able to keep at that level of play (or even staying at above average). It's kind of like the difference where you have top Starcraft players that are able to have 300apm in their late teens/early twenties, but can't physically perform at that same level as they age and get into their later 20s. I suppose it depends on what age group you're trying to target for your game, and I wonder if the NS2 target market will cater again to the teen/early 20s crowd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey when people get older they have to adapt. When I was 20 playing NS I was definitely much faster twitch wise (which would affect CS performance as well), but I wasn't as "smart" or experienced as I was now (dammit I want my speed back!).
As you get older you get a little slower, but you gather more experience, you may have to change your role from owninator to someone who does some killing and a little more support. I learned how to command so when even if I get slower/less coordinated, I can definitely still compete and contribute to the team. Even still though, NS is more about positioning than pure twitch aim. A player can have average aim and above average movement skill that can keep him or her alive.
This is why again I recommend breaking down server communities with labels that would be friendly to either casual or competitive players, or both. If a player falls below the curve it is that player's responsibility to find his or her own way back up again. It is not the developers job to cater to the senior citizens of gaming (no offense depot).
CS is easier for new players to pick up no doubt. Of course from my pro FPS multi-gamer perspective I actually like to fight a fade with an lmg or to stick with just lmg and armor and weapon upgrades as long as possible in combat because it is more of a challenge and much more satisfying to kill a fade through perfect play with lmg and pistol than to just blow them away with an hmg.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey when people get older they have to adapt. When I was 20 playing NS I was definitely much faster twitch wise (which would affect CS performance as well), but I wasn't as "smart" or experienced as I was now (dammit I want my speed back!).
As you get older you get a little slower, but you gather more experience, you may have to change your role from owninator to someone who does some killing and a little more support. I learned how to command so when even if I get slower/less coordinated, I can definitely still compete and contribute to the team. Even still though, NS is more about positioning than pure twitch aim. A player can have average aim and above average movement skill that can keep him or her alive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plenty of professional athletes, from hockey to fighting sports are still competing at the top level in their 30s. And players who rely only on pure technical aim ability like say your Makavellis or SuiCiDalMaNiaCs are always going to be second to the people with similar aim ability but who also use tactics other than rushing and using aim to overcome bad positioning. I always looked for a play where you don't need to use prostar aim to win. It's much better to read the kill death messages and your team position on the minimap and wait in some corner where a skulk is going to bhop by to save an RT and shoot them in the back than to just stand in the middle of the hallway shooting and get parasited. "If I look at the minimap and I see some marine hiding in some random corner waiting to ambush skulks I know it's Minstrel." -Makavelli
Plenty of professional athletes, from hockey to fighting sports are still competing at the top level in their 30s. And players who rely only on pure technical aim ability like say your Makavellis or SuiCiDalMaNiaCs are always going to be second to the people with similar aim ability but who also use tactics other than rushing and using aim to overcome bad positioning. I always looked for a play where you don't need to use prostar aim to win. It's much better to read the kill death messages and your team position on the minimap and wait in some corner where a skulk is going to bhop by to save an RT and shoot them in the back than to just stand in the middle of the hallway shooting and get parasited. "If I look at the minimap and I see some marine hiding in some random corner waiting to ambush skulks I know it's Minstrel." -Makavelli<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You sound like someone I'd like to play with
Oh, and I can understand the killing fades with an LMG talk, but my main derivative of fun from combat is laying down the LAW with lvl 5 UA (I call it the Ion Cannon) HMG fire, I swear the blood specs egt bigger with the damage done ;p
One thing that worked in NS for awhile is this pipeline idea. As I moved up to the next level, some other newer person would take on my previous role. Unfortunately, at the end of NS's life cycle, too many people reached the highest level (not enough newcomers perhaps). This left a huge gap in the middle, and if a new person would join a server once in a while, he'd get owned because everyone is already a leetz0r.
I tried to introduce a lot of people to NS. Most of them left because they didn't like the fundamental game constructs. They didn't like the complicated commander ###### in an FPS, or relying on teammates, or even the evolved alien lifeforms, or the tech tree, or probably most importantly they didn't like the fast paced movement. Well, this is the ###### thats not going to change. This is what makes NS, NS. The community that supported NS and will initialize NS2 play because they like those aspects of the game.
Stop trying to justify making the game ###### because "it will make new players like the game more." It is the most overused excuse to make ###### ######tier. NS is an amateur mod on an outdated engine that had unique gameplay that no one was used to - and it is/was relatively successful. New players ###### love NS, so shut the ###### up and stop trying to destroy the few things that established the community that supported this game.
Unknown World is still tiny. NS2 won't have ###### for exposer or publicity. The biggest selling point is going to be the initial reaction of everyone that played NS1. Expand on the game, introduce new elements, make it modern - but if the fundamental game constructs are changed (including movement, aiming, pace) the current community will reject the game and it will fail.