MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2009
For the first one. The little square which seems to be a hallway(between the pumping stations and upper hives) is not a hallway at all. It's a sort of vent thing which is crawled in between pipes and it's very narrow. I will however consider making it more narrow to keep jps from going through there and having to go through "Round Round". (see "old" layout below)
The second one. The corridors here aren't really very long and linear as they're full of closed doors which means you need to go around. And there is good amounts of cover. I might need to add some to it. And also more vents are in the works. So I think it will be good.
This one is a bit "old" but the vents are marked red(except the one between the pumping stations which I forgot to color at this layout). Rines would need jetpacks or 4-16 mines(depending on where) to get in to them. And I think that it would take longer than to travel around early in the game at least.
My point is anyways that I will leave everything mostly as it is(depending on wpoly counts here and there and other things) for the first beta and see what needs to be done after that. Can't tell if something is bad/wrong if you haven't tested the layout ingame. At least that's what I think. But of course I appreciate your input because it can help later on after the first beta and also now because I understand you points, but I just don't think you've fully understood the layout. No offense!
Also I'll hopefully have more screens tonight. I'll be sure to add a layout which is now with more vents(which will all be colored red this time). And I also think I'll be able to have a beta ready by the weekend. Without saying for sure though. I might not have as much time this week to work on the map but I'll work as much as I can!
Here all vents are colored red. Note that there will be more vents all over the map! Also as you can see I'm not far from finished with the layout now. And the r_speeds are looking mostly good all over the map!
Hey, this looks really good on second survey. I think it could have been an official map if released a few years ago; it has a standard vanilla NS map feel to it. Anyways, I think you should have on sleeping pod be open. Maybe the door got blown off or something. That way, a skulk could be hiding in there. Also maybe consider putting in another row or two of sleeping pods. A facility of that scale would likely have more than 6(?) sleeping pods methinks.
Other than that, I'm really impressed by your mapping abilities. It's clear you've spent a good deal of time both aesthetically and functionally.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Thanks a lot toxik!
I've changed the sleeping pods area. One is open, close to an entrance. Also there are 12 pods and I know that's little too. But this facility would most likely have more than two rooms on one floor for sleeping pods and other stuff. So I think I'll make something that looks like a way one floor up, but isn't. That way it might feel better I think.
Again thank you! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I've been working on the last few rooms, and adding vents today. And I'm very happy to say that I think the layout is done:
<img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/Kabelen/nscrudelayout03.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Vents are red. I'm considering a few more vents to the top hives but I'm not sure how to place them but I have some ideas. Other than that it's finished! At least for beta 1.
Also I cba to take screenshots of the map since I'm so close to beta 1. I'll post screens of the whole map when the first beta is ready. And what needs to be done isn't very much. Fixing up a few texture bugs(hall of mirrors here and there), toning down/changing some lighting and add sounds.
Looks like you can't keep any outpost or siege spot once bilebombing gorges are up into the vents. Marine should have a chance to build some rts or attack alien rts without getting easily ambushed/rushed due to a nearby vent. I think the long vent around "Round Round" is too much, except the small part connecting Round Round with Station System Server. A few vent exits should be weldable, if you wanna keep so many vents, for example one of the two exits of the same vent in Equipment Storage. Moreover I think that the two vents closest to marine base make it too easy for aliens to rush the base.
Other than that I agree with toxik. It looks very promising and visuals are great. Good job!
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Hmm ok. If I remove the one connecting primary power generators and cooling tanks, remove the one connecting mess hall and marine start and take away the bit of vent going from round round to upper pumping station. Would that be better?
I think the vent system is actually pretty good. For aliens, it is very defensive, and gives them the initial advantage (until JPs pop). So, there are always two edges to the vents, initial alien advantage and later JP advantage. In addition, grenade launchers can pop bile bombing gorges, so, I think you should keep it how it is until there is further in-game testing done to verify or deny current speculation.
You should add weld points if the vent balance be jeopardized, me thinks, before removing them.
If you think otherwise I'd like to hear thoughts <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
The red dotted ones are a good choice. Except that I would put the two near Marine Start on the other sides of the vents, so marines have to make an effort to close them (like in the old ns_caged, for example).
Also make sure that the vent doors deal damage, when activated, so aliens can't exploit and block the vents closing like in double res in ns_veil.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2009
Ok. I'll put the ones near marine start on the other side since it seems more logical to do that. About testing I want to have a closed testing round first, but I need to find 12-16 people who are interested in testing it, and a server that can host it. Regarding when it will be downloadable I'm not sure. I need to fix up a few areas, add the weldpoints and add ambient sound to the map so it feels better. It's not that much work so a few days I think, if everything goes smoothly that is.
EDIT:
Compiling what will most likely be beta 1 now. If everything works I'll start gathering people for testing. If anyone wants to review the map for themselves let me know!
I want to review the map by myself. Also, do you have any sounds in the map? I notice that many official maps have a few environmental sounds to make the map a little more eery.
You might want to consider putting sounds in your map in future releases if you don't have any. These could include engine humms, ominous drones and the like. Sounds can add alot to the "psychological" effect of your map.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Ok I'll get it to you soon!
There are sounds in the map of course. Not that they're very good, and they're a bit ###### on the looping side since I made them all into mp3s.
I've also been trying to get a good minimap done, with colored vents and labels, but I can't seem to get it right with the palettes and such..so there's only the crappy done nothing to minimap.
Awesome, I am downloading the map now and will run through it. Pretty stoked!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I'll tell you what I think after I check it out.
GOOD JOB! I am impressed! Your map is really good, and I say that with mapping experience under my belt. That means I understand how big a pain mapping can be dealing with all the leaks and revisions and all that. But, it seems like you've overcome all those obstacles and released a very very very very solid map with good aesthetic appeal and hopefully that thing called balance.
RE: LIGHTING Along with your strong points in making the map good looking with a good balance of ranged vs melee combat, as well as distances between hives and MS, there also comes one super blaring thing I think you should edit: the lighting. The lighting is much too bright for my tastes and disagrees with the mood many official NS maps are able to capture. Take a stroll through almost any official map and behold the dim corridors and darker rooms. Dimming the lights allows for players to sink into what I believe to be a fundamental part of NS, the psychological aspect... I don't know if it's just me, but NS just doesn't feel right in super bright environment because I never imagine fighting aliens in a well-lit room. I guess the idea is that aliens are supposed to be concealed and classified as a "mysterious" and "ominous" threat, implying that darkness (the unknown) is a factor in their psycho-genesis (aka, how the alien is born into the mind of the player; darker maps lend to this alien conception). If you understood at least part of that idea it would be worth it.
IN SUM: I think you should dim the place up a little bit. Have a nice variation in lighting, some parts bright, some parts dark, some parts in between. And certainly do these things at your discretion, after all its your map. I think lighting variance will certainly give it an extra sense.
PS: The last issue I had was when I entered Equipment Storage from the top left hive (that room with the box handler) -- my frame-rate dropped noticeably. Perhaps smooth out that area.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
*waits for beta-link* <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I can also help you with the minimap, if you like. I had a lot of trouble first as well, but it's easy once you figure out all the quirks. I can send/upload you an indexed palette .bmp with the proper colors (different blues, reds, blacks and whites and last color black), if you like, then you only have to copy&paste your different prepared minimaps over this .bmp in photoshop and save it as multiple names for all the minimap versions you need. This way all versions use the same palette and you even have to save the commander minimap (5th piece) only once.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Thanks a lot toxik! This really helps. I ran through the map once now and noticed some places where a few things are just not right. In some places I agree with the lighting, but I think most of the map is fine, but I will tone down the lighting where I think it's needed. About equipment storage I know what you mean because the wpoly count there is a bit high. I can try to reduce it but I don't think I'll have much luck without redoing the whole room. But if we're talking about fps drops that don't go below 60-70 I think it's ok. I play NS constantly with 60 fps and it's smooth as hell for me. Anyways I'll fix up the few things I've noticed and compile once more before starting a new thread.
psyk0, if you would help me with the minimap that would be awesome. I tried saving a palette and loading it to every image before pasting but it didn't work and spritewiz just gave me an error which I couldn't read because the foldernames went on too long <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited May 2009
Could you pm me the beta link? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Regarding the minimap, you don't have to load the palette, but copy&paste the minimaps into the indexed .bmp with the palette.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Lol I lost the link to the map. But I'm compiling another version now, with a few things fixed up so I hope this is the one I can release. Dunno if I cba to do closed testing. I'll try to get some feedback threads up on different forums at least.
Anyways, thanks for the PM, I'm gonna try now and see how it works out.
MasterGgmfbstJoin Date: 2003-08-24Member: 20169Members, Squad Five Blue
Alright the minimaps worked out very smoothly now! Thanks a lot! I'm gonna go ingame for a screenshot round and there will be a new thread shortly after with link to download the map!
One more issue: the room with the table and two benches has a problem. If you crouch between the table and the bench, you become stuck... so, essentially, completely immobilized.
so I made a quick ingame run through your map! and I have to say: VERY good work!
BUT... there are some things, I would change. One thing is, there is so much light, in the whole map. Especially near the Hive location "The Boiler". The whole slimy "tunnel" is filled with (red) light. why dont remove near half of the lights, to get some atmosphere (and a little more advantage for the Aliens).
Same thing at the vent near the marine base (loading bay to Transport Hall)# *walking further on*
hm... all the Hive Positions are very brightly ... maybe as well remove some lights, or ad more flickering?
Comments
The second one. The corridors here aren't really very long and linear as they're full of closed doors which means you need to go around. And there is good amounts of cover. I might need to add some to it. And also more vents are in the works. So I think it will be good.
If you look at this layout:
<img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/Kabelen/layoutlabelled01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This one is a bit "old" but the vents are marked red(except the one between the pumping stations which I forgot to color at this layout). Rines would need jetpacks or 4-16 mines(depending on where) to get in to them. And I think that it would take longer than to travel around early in the game at least.
My point is anyways that I will leave everything mostly as it is(depending on wpoly counts here and there and other things) for the first beta and see what needs to be done after that. Can't tell if something is bad/wrong if you haven't tested the layout ingame. At least that's what I think. But of course I appreciate your input because it can help later on after the first beta and also now because I understand you points, but I just don't think you've fully understood the layout. No offense!
Also I'll hopefully have more screens tonight. I'll be sure to add a layout which is now with more vents(which will all be colored red this time). And I also think I'll be able to have a beta ready by the weekend. Without saying for sure though. I might not have as much time this week to work on the map but I'll work as much as I can!
EDIT:
Most recent layout(only 1 hour ago):
<img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/Kabelen/nscrudelayout02.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here all vents are colored red. Note that there will be more vents all over the map! Also as you can see I'm not far from finished with the layout now. And the r_speeds are looking mostly good all over the map!
More screens of looks later!
Anyways, I think you should have on sleeping pod be open. Maybe the door got blown off or something. That way, a skulk could be hiding in there. Also maybe consider putting in another row or two of sleeping pods. A facility of that scale would likely have more than 6(?) sleeping pods methinks.
Other than that, I'm really impressed by your mapping abilities. It's clear you've spent a good deal of time both aesthetically and functionally.
pieces,
t0x1kw4st3
I've changed the sleeping pods area. One is open, close to an entrance. Also there are 12 pods and I know that's little too. But this facility would most likely have more than two rooms on one floor for sleeping pods and other stuff. So I think I'll make something that looks like a way one floor up, but isn't. That way it might feel better I think.
Again thank you! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I've been working on the last few rooms, and adding vents today. And I'm very happy to say that I think the layout is done:
<img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/Kabelen/nscrudelayout03.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Vents are red. I'm considering a few more vents to the top hives but I'm not sure how to place them but I have some ideas. Other than that it's finished! At least for beta 1.
Also I cba to take screenshots of the map since I'm so close to beta 1. I'll post screens of the whole map when the first beta is ready. And what needs to be done isn't very much. Fixing up a few texture bugs(hall of mirrors here and there), toning down/changing some lighting and add sounds.
Looks like you can't keep any outpost or siege spot once bilebombing gorges are up into the vents.
Marine should have a chance to build some rts or attack alien rts without getting easily ambushed/rushed due to a nearby vent.
I think the long vent around "Round Round" is too much, except the small part connecting Round Round with Station System Server.
A few vent exits should be weldable, if you wanna keep so many vents, for example one of the two exits of the same vent in Equipment Storage.
Moreover I think that the two vents closest to marine base make it too easy for aliens to rush the base.
Other than that I agree with toxik. It looks very promising and visuals are great. Good job!
So, there are always two edges to the vents, initial alien advantage and later JP advantage. In addition, grenade launchers can pop bile bombing gorges, so, I think you should keep it how it is until there is further in-game testing done to verify or deny current speculation.
You should add weld points if the vent balance be jeopardized, me thinks, before removing them.
<img src="http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/Kabelen/weldpoints.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If you think otherwise I'd like to hear thoughts <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Except that I would put the two near Marine Start on the other sides of the vents, so marines have to make an effort to close them (like in the old ns_caged, for example).
Also make sure that the vent doors deal damage, when activated, so aliens can't exploit and block the vents closing like in double res in ns_veil.
When can I download the alpha version or how are you going about testing the map?
About testing I want to have a closed testing round first, but I need to find 12-16 people who are interested in testing it, and a server that can host it. Regarding when it will be downloadable I'm not sure. I need to fix up a few areas, add the weldpoints and add ambient sound to the map so it feels better. It's not that much work so a few days I think, if everything goes smoothly that is.
EDIT:
Compiling what will most likely be beta 1 now. If everything works I'll start gathering people for testing. If anyone wants to review the map for themselves let me know!
Also, do you have any sounds in the map? I notice that many official maps have a few environmental sounds to make the map a little more eery.
You might want to consider putting sounds in your map in future releases if you don't have any. These could include engine humms, ominous drones and the like. Sounds can add alot to the "psychological" effect of your map.
There are sounds in the map of course. Not that they're very good, and they're a bit ###### on the looping side since I made them all into mp3s.
I've also been trying to get a good minimap done, with colored vents and labels, but I can't seem to get it right with the palettes and such..so there's only the crappy done nothing to minimap.
I am impressed! Your map is really good, and I say that with mapping experience under my belt. That means I understand how big a pain mapping can be dealing with all the leaks and revisions and all that. But, it seems like you've overcome all those obstacles and released a very very very very solid map with good aesthetic appeal and hopefully that thing called balance.
RE: LIGHTING
Along with your strong points in making the map good looking with a good balance of ranged vs melee combat, as well as distances between hives and MS, there also comes one super blaring thing I think you should edit: the lighting. The lighting is much too bright for my tastes and disagrees with the mood many official NS maps are able to capture. Take a stroll through almost any official map and behold the dim corridors and darker rooms. Dimming the lights allows for players to sink into what I believe to be a fundamental part of NS, the psychological aspect... I don't know if it's just me, but NS just doesn't feel right in super bright environment because I never imagine fighting aliens in a well-lit room. I guess the idea is that aliens are supposed to be concealed and classified as a "mysterious" and "ominous" threat, implying that darkness (the unknown) is a factor in their psycho-genesis (aka, how the alien is born into the mind of the player; darker maps lend to this alien conception). If you understood at least part of that idea it would be worth it.
IN SUM:
I think you should dim the place up a little bit. Have a nice variation in lighting, some parts bright, some parts dark, some parts in between. And certainly do these things at your discretion, after all its your map. I think lighting variance will certainly give it an extra sense.
PS: The last issue I had was when I entered Equipment Storage from the top left hive (that room with the box handler) -- my frame-rate dropped noticeably. Perhaps smooth out that area.
I can also help you with the minimap, if you like.
I had a lot of trouble first as well, but it's easy once you figure out all the quirks.
I can send/upload you an indexed palette .bmp with the proper colors (different blues, reds, blacks and whites and last color black), if you like, then you only have to copy&paste your different prepared minimaps over this .bmp in photoshop and save it as multiple names for all the minimap versions you need.
This way all versions use the same palette and you even have to save the commander minimap (5th piece) only once.
psyk0, if you would help me with the minimap that would be awesome. I tried saving a palette and loading it to every image before pasting but it didn't work and spritewiz just gave me an error which I couldn't read because the foldernames went on too long <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Regarding the minimap, you don't have to load the palette, but copy&paste the minimaps into the indexed .bmp with the palette.
Edit: Check your PMs
Anyways, thanks for the PM, I'm gonna try now and see how it works out.
What compile options do you use btw?
Have you tried hlbsp -maxnodesize 4096 to reduce wpolies?
VERY good work!
BUT...
there are some things, I would change.
One thing is, there is so much light, in the whole map. Especially near the Hive location "The Boiler". The whole slimy "tunnel" is filled with (red) light. why dont remove near half of the lights, to get some atmosphere (and a little more advantage for the Aliens).
Same thing at the vent near the marine base (loading bay to Transport Hall)#
*walking further on*
hm... all the Hive Positions are very brightly ... maybe as well remove some lights, or ad more flickering?