<!--quoteo(post=1700482:date=Feb 15 2009, 08:18 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Feb 15 2009, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO specialized movement is the domain of the aliens, marines should focus on tactical positioning.
Skulks should probably have at least one special jumping technique, like a double jump, side-dodge(UT style), better walljumps, etc. Either that or give them a toned down Leap at Hive 1 as an alt fire. Fades and Lerks of course have their own movement skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say marines are quite position related right now. They've got limited movement options allowing them to reposition quickly and further use up their positioning, but you're not going to get far just by trickjumping randomly. Everything starts from being able to position correctly.
I'm really interested to see how they're approaching the alien movement. On presesnt FPSes even TF2 scout is a massive train on rails when compared to the flexibility of skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1700474:date=Feb 15 2009, 07:40 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steppin'razor @ Feb 15 2009, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played competitive cs, albeit a long time ago, without bhop/wallstrafe/other movement exploits and where was the gaping hole in the gameplay there? I found it to be more about tactics, reflexes and teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So is NS, and to rebut your point - CS has lots of movement exploits which are regularly used by everybody, including all the top players who do them better than pretty much everyone else. Jump boosting, duck walking and bhopping are very prevalent in CS these days.
I agree with jump boosting, however in the ladders I played in (mostly lan) wasn't very prevalent. Bhop/duck walking wasn't around for me either at the time I played, but I'm sure somewhere people were doing it.
But if someone went to me, hey were making a new CS game, I wouldn't tell them if you didn't include these movement exploits it would be a game breaker.
edit: However NS is a so heavily movement based I want to reiterate that I do want aliens to have specialised movement, and want the marine side to stay far far away that (however I might miss spamming crouch and strafe when a onos goes to eat me, lol).
<!--quoteo(post=1700459:date=Feb 15 2009, 05:58 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 15 2009, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, there was me thinking that Quake pioneered the technique of strafejumping/bunnyhopping... Frankly, I have yet to hear another person who has played the game competetively agree with removing bunnyhopping. That's over the course of 4-5 years. I Agree that it's obscure and convoluted, but frankly nobody has come up with another skill-based movement system that actually works in around what, 10-14 years since Quakeworld was released? I'd love for the next evolution of that to come with NS2, however going on 10+ years experience, I'm going to bet that it won't. Unless you can come up with a <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->viable alternative<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, removing bunnyhopping from NS2 will be a very, very big mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Woah, woah, woah woah,
I have been talking about wallstrafing (a.k.a. wallrunning). I never mentioned strafejumping, which I think is easy to learn and adds far more to the game than wallstrafing.
I never said remove bhopping, I just said make it easier, since it's not obvious how it's done. It's only difficult to do because of the combination of keypresses required and the timing. But since most people alleviate the harder timing elements to mwheel spam, the only tricky part really is directing your jumps to keep maximum speed while navigating terrain advantageously. <i>This is where the depth is.</i>
Keep this part and remove the artificial, unhelpful and largely ireelevant depth imposed by a shabby control system that is forced to take advantage of a glitch. If bunnyhopping is <i>designed</i> into NS2, it should be easy to perform bunnyhop (with default control settings) but hard to do well. In NS2 I hope it can be easy to do with a default control setup and no use of silly button spam, and that it can be taught and learnt in the space of a round. The past bit is really important for engaging new players and keeping your existing players from disengaging with new players.
In NS currently if someone asks you how that Skulk is going faster, you either don't say anything because you know it will take too long to explain at the cost of your game time, or you tell them to search it on the forums or on a tutorial site, or if you're less polite you tell them to RTFM.
In NS2 I hope we can have a situation where it doesn't take more than a sentence to explain bhop, so that everyone can immediately start getting the benefits and enjoying the fluidity of movement it gives, and start learning a skill from a simple starting point.
<!--quoteo(post=1700526:date=Feb 16 2009, 06:39 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 16 2009, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700526"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody actually uses wigglewalk, you guys all know that yeah? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ive seen a few people do it at times... not often though.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1700631:date=Feb 17 2009, 03:28 AM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ Feb 17 2009, 03:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a marine? Heavens no, but on a skulk when I absolutely need to close in quicker on a marine with his back to me?, definitely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1700668:date=Feb 17 2009, 05:21 PM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ Feb 17 2009, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can't consistently do it, so it's my alternative "no-skill" skill<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL!!!!!!!!! Do you even see the <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->irony<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> in that?
<!--quoteo(post=1700668:date=Feb 17 2009, 05:21 PM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ Feb 17 2009, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question guys... do you consider bhopping a barrier between players being competitive or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely not, I consider it a barrier between players being <b>good at the game</b> or not. Nobody says you can't be "competetive" and terrible at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=1700684:date=Feb 18 2009, 07:49 AM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 18 2009, 07:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ROFL!!!!!!!!! Do you even see the <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->irony<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> in that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think he was saying it fairly tongue in cheek, it would be fair to say he did
<!--quoteo(post=1700684:date=Feb 17 2009, 02:49 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 17 2009, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700684"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ROFL!!!!!!!!! Do you even see the <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->irony<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> in that? Absolutely not, I consider it a barrier between players being <b>good at the game</b> or not. Nobody says you can't be "competetive" and terrible at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I belong to the competitive and terrible area lol. also it is just your skulk that suffers really, if you can play another life form like lerk, it doesn't matter as much that your bhop isn't perfect, but you will never be a truly good skulk with out a consistent bhop. (ambushing with your team mates is still effective, but you can't really reliably take out a good marine with out some good bhop skills)
I for one hope that the NS team incorporates some kind of skill based movement, for the alien and marine teams. That being said i have been playing NS for 5 odd years and only recently have i been able to bhop adeptly. The trick is then to make skill based movement transparent and accessible. ie if anyone here has played ET Quake Wars the way strafe jumping in that game works it is both easy for new players and challenging for veterans.
<!--quoteo(post=1700732:date=Feb 17 2009, 10:34 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Katana- @ Feb 17 2009, 10:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I belong to the competitive and terrible area lol. also it is just your skulk that suffers really, if you can play another life form like lerk, it doesn't matter as much that your bhop isn't perfect, but you will never be a truly good skulk with out a consistent bhop. (ambushing with your team mates is still effective, but you can't really reliably take out a good marine with out some good bhop skills)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which brings up the point (to further derail my own thread since no one seems to care) that no one complains about blink hopping, so clearly the problem does not lie in airspeed control, but in the method of jumping used during bunnyhop, which is horribly unintuitive to the point where you have to write a script or bind jump to mousewheel to solve the problem. No one ###### about bhop in quake because this is the real problem (and Quake does not share it). The actual airspeed control "engine exploit" (left in intentionally, for many revisions now) is not the problem.
Does anyone have any suggestions on gameplay mechanics or is this the new bhop thread?
<!--quoteo(post=1700771:date=Feb 18 2009, 05:49 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 18 2009, 05:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone have any suggestions on gameplay mechanics or is this the new bhop thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Autojumping feels absolutely horrible though, I messed around with some _special scripts back in the day, where you could just hold mouse2 and have perfect jump timing ... it was dull and boring and felt nasty. Quakestyle if it's going to be done, imo.
I think the key to making a good skill based movement that is approachable
1.transparent execution: the buttons/mouse movements need to do the maneuver should be some obvious. 2.Analog: This means that it isn't, you either did it correctly or didn't, type of skill. The differentiation between poor, good and expert is in the shades of gray 3.Full control: the player should be able to predict and vary the output of the maneuver. Closely related to the above, a slightly different input can yield a very different output.
For these reasons, I suggest an "analog" jump for the skulk. Simply put, if you hold the jump button longer, you jump higher. To make it more interesting, you also make it so jumping gives you a speed bonus, but holding it slows you down (talking horizontal speed). So tapping jump makes you jump forward in a low trajectory almost like a leap (chain them together you get a sort of bhop, but it is waaaay more straight forward), however; if you hold down the jump button you will end up much higher, but you will also rapidly drop speed. The mix up you get from this would be great for throwing off marine aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1700921:date=Feb 19 2009, 06:29 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Feb 19 2009, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally have hated all games that have a "charge to jump higher" mechanic. Sometimes, I just want to jump.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not mean charge to jump, you press jump, and you jump instantly, but if you hold down the button for longer you jump higher. its like holding down jump makes gravity act less strongly on you for a moment( and only while your moving upward after jumping)
Developers avoid this thread like the plague. Radix remake this and make stricter rules on reply.
Though I'm not even sure why you are bothering here. The devs are rather notorious for not only ignoring these forums but ignoring both the casual and competitive segments of their community. They even ignore their playtesters (though in most cases this seems like a good idea as some of them seem to be rather daft.)
Your best hope radix is to either have a discussion with yourself or have discussions with actual casual players ingame and post/summarize those discussions here. You won't gain anything beneficial from this thread, unless you are a masochist or sadist.
I wouldn't say ignore.. more like.. pretend to ignore. Either way, we're not gonna get their input.
Charlie's already stated he and the team have already got some ideas going, and they just wanna see how they turn out. Whether to keep bunny-hopping and other quirky movements are probably also being taken into consideration.
Comments
Skulks should probably have at least one special jumping technique, like a double jump, side-dodge(UT style), better walljumps, etc. Either that or give them a toned down Leap at Hive 1 as an alt fire. Fades and Lerks of course have their own movement skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say marines are quite position related right now. They've got limited movement options allowing them to reposition quickly and further use up their positioning, but you're not going to get far just by trickjumping randomly. Everything starts from being able to position correctly.
I'm really interested to see how they're approaching the alien movement. On presesnt FPSes even TF2 scout is a massive train on rails when compared to the flexibility of skulk.
So is NS, and to rebut your point - CS has lots of movement exploits which are regularly used by everybody, including all the top players who do them better than pretty much everyone else. Jump boosting, duck walking and bhopping are very prevalent in CS these days.
But if someone went to me, hey were making a new CS game, I wouldn't tell them if you didn't include these movement exploits it would be a game breaker.
edit: However NS is a so heavily movement based I want to reiterate that I do want aliens to have specialised movement, and want the marine side to stay far far away that (however I might miss spamming crouch and strafe when a onos goes to eat me, lol).
<!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->woah.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I have been talking about wallstrafing (a.k.a. wallrunning). I never mentioned strafejumping, which I think is easy to learn and adds far more to the game than wallstrafing.
I never said remove bhopping, I just said make it easier, since it's not obvious how it's done. It's only difficult to do because of the combination of keypresses required and the timing. But since most people alleviate the harder timing elements to mwheel spam, the only tricky part really is directing your jumps to keep maximum speed while navigating terrain advantageously. <i>This is where the depth is.</i>
Keep this part and remove the artificial, unhelpful and largely ireelevant depth imposed by a shabby control system that is forced to take advantage of a glitch. If bunnyhopping is <i>designed</i> into NS2, it should be easy to perform bunnyhop (with default control settings) but hard to do well. In NS2 I hope it can be easy to do with a default control setup and no use of silly button spam, and that it can be taught and learnt in the space of a round. The past bit is really important for engaging new players and keeping your existing players from disengaging with new players.
In NS currently if someone asks you how that Skulk is going faster, you either don't say anything because you know it will take too long to explain at the cost of your game time, or you tell them to search it on the forums or on a tutorial site, or if you're less polite you tell them to RTFM.
In NS2 I hope we can have a situation where it doesn't take more than a sentence to explain bhop, so that everyone can immediately start getting the benefits and enjoying the fluidity of movement it gives, and start learning a skill from a simple starting point.
ive seen a few people do it at times... not often though.
What? Who's Pandora? And what's in her Box?
On a marine? Heavens no, but on a skulk when I absolutely need to close in quicker on a marine with his back to me?, definitely.
then bhop?
Can't consistently do it, so it's my alternative "no-skill" skill
Question guys... do you consider bhopping a barrier between players being competitive or not?
ROFL!!!!!!!!! Do you even see the <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->irony<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> in that?
<!--quoteo(post=1700668:date=Feb 17 2009, 05:21 PM:name=GaussWaffle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaussWaffle @ Feb 17 2009, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Question guys... do you consider bhopping a barrier between players being competitive or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely not, I consider it a barrier between players being <b>good at the game</b> or not. Nobody says you can't be "competetive" and terrible at the same time.
I think he was saying it fairly tongue in cheek, it would be fair to say he did
Absolutely not, I consider it a barrier between players being <b>good at the game</b> or not. Nobody says you can't be "competetive" and terrible at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright, I can live with that
also it is just your skulk that suffers really, if you can play another life form like lerk, it doesn't matter as much that your bhop isn't perfect, but you will never be a truly good skulk with out a consistent bhop. (ambushing with your team mates is still effective, but you can't really reliably take out a good marine with out some good bhop skills)
also it is just your skulk that suffers really, if you can play another life form like lerk, it doesn't matter as much that your bhop isn't perfect, but you will never be a truly good skulk with out a consistent bhop. (ambushing with your team mates is still effective, but you can't really reliably take out a good marine with out some good bhop skills)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which brings up the point (to further derail my own thread since no one seems to care) that no one complains about blink hopping, so clearly the problem does not lie in airspeed control, but in the method of jumping used during bunnyhop, which is horribly unintuitive to the point where you have to write a script or bind jump to mousewheel to solve the problem. No one ###### about bhop in quake because this is the real problem (and Quake does not share it). The actual airspeed control "engine exploit" (left in intentionally, for many revisions now) is not the problem.
Does anyone have any suggestions on gameplay mechanics or is this the new bhop thread?
Quakestyle jumping or autojumping.
agreed.
1.transparent execution: the buttons/mouse movements need to do the maneuver should be some obvious.
2.Analog: This means that it isn't, you either did it correctly or didn't, type of skill. The differentiation between poor, good and expert is in the shades of gray
3.Full control: the player should be able to predict and vary the output of the maneuver. Closely related to the above, a slightly different input can yield a very different output.
For these reasons, I suggest an "analog" jump for the skulk. Simply put, if you hold the jump button longer, you jump higher. To make it more interesting, you also make it so jumping gives you a speed bonus, but holding it slows you down (talking horizontal speed). So tapping jump makes you jump forward in a low trajectory almost like a leap (chain them together you get a sort of bhop, but it is waaaay more straight forward), however; if you hold down the jump button you will end up much higher, but you will also rapidly drop speed. The mix up you get from this would be great for throwing off marine aim.
I did not mean charge to jump, you press jump, and you jump instantly, but if you hold down the button for longer you jump higher. its like holding down jump makes gravity act less strongly on you for a moment( and only while your moving upward after jumping)
Though I'm not even sure why you are bothering here. The devs are rather notorious for not only ignoring these forums but ignoring both the casual and competitive segments of their community. They even ignore their playtesters (though in most cases this seems like a good idea as some of them seem to be rather daft.)
Your best hope radix is to either have a discussion with yourself or have discussions with actual casual players ingame and post/summarize those discussions here. You won't gain anything beneficial from this thread, unless you are a masochist or sadist.
Charlie's already stated he and the team have already got some ideas going, and they just wanna see how they turn out. Whether to keep bunny-hopping and other quirky movements are probably also being taken into consideration.