you really can't argue that bhop adds nothing to the game when it clearly does, because people, not just one or two, but the nearly the entire competitive community is willing to defend it to the death. Clearly bhop did add something to the game, it might not be something that you like or agree with, but its being there has had a significant impact (just look at how often the subject comes up and how fiercely it is debated) Wither you think it is a detractor or a benefit is immaterial, to weather or not it has had an affect.
my point? Don't make blanket statements about some feature being good or bad because you dislike it, especially when so many people show just how much they like it. Instead try and understand why it so important to people, maybe "a way you can have skillz to move around the map faster by jumping" is a really fun and engaging game feature to players, and by removing it and not replacing it with something similar you create a hole in their game play experience.
lets take an example many people on the other side of the coin would get very angry about. I think building normal turrets and OCs is not terribly fun for players doing it, or players fighting against it. I find the tactics these features encourage to be very stale, and the process of building turrets is boring, the process of taking down turrets is boring. Turret lock downs are also really frustrating for new players, and can totally destroy the game play experience for people who don't have the skills or knowledge to counter the strategy. I'd be happy if ns2 left out turret farming completely.
will this happen, of course not; leaving out this aspect of the game would alienate many long time players, and completely change the face of non-competitive ns. I can imagine however, that turret farming will be modified to address some of the concerns players like myself have with it, and the utter lack of play you see for marine turrets and OCs in competitive play (they are really not viable in a competitive setting at all). The feature will be updated to be more competitive play" friendly" (I hope) and at the very least will be different from what we know in ns1.
It is pretty much exactly the same for bhop to competitive players. It is an important, game changing feature, used in every round of the game... people love it. Some people just love to skulk all day to practice bhop, much like some public game players love to spend every game as gorge and build OCs. I hope bhop will be modified, to make it more new player friendly. Removing the feature of complex and skill based movement completely would leave a big hole in what makes ns fun for many players, just as removing turrets would.
PS. Both turrets and bhop are intentionally part of the game (the dev purposely left in alien bhop in the game)
<!--quoteo(post=1699936:date=Feb 10 2009, 11:57 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 10 2009, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're not aware, boredom is not good gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, that's not *entirely* true, so long as you don't use the word 'boredom', but instead calm'. Refer to this: <!--QuoteBegin-Gamasutra+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gamasutra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>3. Bring players down to bring them back up. </b>
The roller coaster analogy is an apt one to describe players' engagement and physiological responses. The fun lies in going up and down on the ride. Staying at the same elevation is about as much fun as riding a monorail. Creating emotional drama, of course, is easier said than done in video games.
It seems counterintuitive, but the most intense points of engagement in the titles in our study were often the result of calm moments. Downtime, a period of lower engagement, is not always bad. Periodic but brief lulls in action allow for more intense action sequences and stronger reactions to climactic final battles. The emphasis is on "brief"; take too long, and players are truly disengaged and want (to continue the analogy) to get off the ride.
The most important thing for developers to understand is that the two elements -- big intense events and brief lulls -- must both occur. One doesn't function without the other.
Examples of big, high-intensity moments included epic courtyard battles (Call of Duty 3, Resistance, Gears of War), powerful enemy bosses (Ghost Recon, Gears of War), and swarms of small ones (Half-Life 2, Resistance, and Gears of War).
Creating the calm before the storm is much trickier. We identified a few strategies. In Gears of War, there's a surprising amount of walking around, listening to the radio com -- and these moments explicitly calm players just before hordes of Locusts appear from their emergence holes.
Half-Life 2 used a different method. In between combat, puzzles provided an emotional break from action. As expected, these puzzles did not evoke adrenaline, but they did elicit engagement and more specifically, positive emotion in droves. Engagement was 17 percent higher than the benchmark, and the recorded level of positive emotion upon completion (the "reward" feeling of finishing) was additionally nearly 20 percent higher than the norm. It is Half-Life 2's back and forth between the adrenaline of combat and the reward of puzzles that creates its roller coaster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> from: <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868/shoot_to_thrill_biosensory_.php?page=2" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868...ory_.php?page=2</a>
The AI Director in Left4Dead achieves this too.
Of course, then the argument is up to whether holding W is the right sort of calm, and for the right length of time.
Katana but one the other flip I wouldn't call you a troll for not wanting tf farming in NS2 if I disagreed, I would just say why and leave it at that.
If you disagree with bhop on these forums your basically labeled a troll. Sure, a lot of competitive players have their right to defend it, and being a casual player I am allowed to make up my own damn mind about it. For the record I am all for skulk skill based movement (to an extent) but not marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1700011:date=Feb 11 2009, 05:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 11 2009, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, that's not *entirely* true, so long as you don't use the word 'boredom', but instead calm'. Refer to this:
Of course, then the argument is up to whether holding W is the right sort of calm, and for the right length of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the Gamasutra quoting begins....
I'm not saying it's wrong, I happen to think they're on to something, it's just that's one of the most quoted articles and I'm sick of it. I now just assume people have heard of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1700011:date=Feb 11 2009, 05:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 11 2009, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, that's not *entirely* true, so long as you don't use the word 'boredom', but instead calm'. Refer to this:
Of course, then the argument is up to whether holding W is the right sort of calm, and for the right length of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say all the momevents were calm enough for that rollercoaster. It's a little similar as WC3: You're doing something quite intense all the time, but fights still top the usual by a big enough margin.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited February 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1700022:date=Feb 11 2009, 01:46 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Feb 11 2009, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's just that's one of the most quoted articles and I'm sick of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Meh, Sirlin has it beat in terms of number of quotations by a long shot.
Can we get back on topic? What would make the combative gameplay elements more fun in NS2? If you don't like bunnyhop then suggest something better, unless you can't (which you can't) in which case you should either troll elsewhere or speak to a completely different element of the game (there are more mechanics than just movement in combat).
<!--quoteo(post=1700005:date=Feb 10 2009, 09:45 PM:name=Katana-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Katana- @ Feb 10 2009, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you really can't argue that bhop adds nothing to the game when it clearly does, because people, not just one or two, but the nearly the entire competitive community is willing to defend it to the death. Clearly bhop did add something to the game, it might not be something that you like or agree with, but its being there has had a significant impact (just look at how often the subject comes up and how fiercely it is debated) Wither you think it is a detractor or a benefit is immaterial, to weather or not it has had an affect.
my point? Don't make blanket statements about some feature being good or bad because you dislike it, especially when so many people show just how much they like it. Instead try and understand why it so important to people, maybe "a way you can have skillz to move around the map faster by jumping" is a really fun and engaging game feature to players, and by removing it and not replacing it with something similar you create a hole in their game play experience.
lets take an example many people on the other side of the coin would get very angry about. I think building normal turrets and OCs is not terribly fun for players doing it, or players fighting against it. I find the tactics these features encourage to be very stale, and the process of building turrets is boring, the process of taking down turrets is boring. Turret lock downs are also really frustrating for new players, and can totally destroy the game play experience for people who don't have the skills or knowledge to counter the strategy. I'd be happy if ns2 left out turret farming completely.
will this happen, of course not; leaving out this aspect of the game would alienate many long time players, and completely change the face of non-competitive ns. I can imagine however, that turret farming will be modified to address some of the concerns players like myself have with it, and the utter lack of play you see for marine turrets and OCs in competitive play (they are really not viable in a competitive setting at all). The feature will be updated to be more competitive play" friendly" (I hope) and at the very least will be different from what we know in ns1.
It is pretty much exactly the same for bhop to competitive players. It is an important, game changing feature, used in every round of the game... people love it. Some people just love to skulk all day to practice bhop, much like some public game players love to spend every game as gorge and build OCs. I hope bhop will be modified, to make it more new player friendly. Removing the feature of complex and skill based movement completely would leave a big hole in what makes ns fun for many players, just as removing turrets would.
PS. Both turrets and bhop are intentionally part of the game (the dev purposely left in alien bhop in the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good post, that pretty much matches my feelings on bhopping
Lets see if I can add something to the competitive landscape here...
How about adding a slight cone of fire difference for the machine guns. A smaller one for small bursts (1-3 bullets), and a gradually bigger one after longer bursts (3-5, 5-8, 8+) until it reaches about an NS 1 cone of fire. This wouldn't be a gigantic difference, but could allow for a precision aiming to take a bigger role in NS2
To make this a game that can be learned quickly and still is interesting for those who are trying to master it you should use as much of those small effects as possible but nothing that plays a major role for the game, but if you combine all of them they have a big effect on the combat.
I like all suggestions so far, but this wall hopping is somehow odd, is there no gravity in this world <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Feels like this is way to common sense what I'm talking about <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> sorry, but I post it anyway.
This game needs to allow for more theory. RFK should be removed and movement needs to play a larger role for larger chunks of the gameplay that doesn't involve combat (it should be more important that your capping team can get to point B 2 seconds faster than they otherwise can for example)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie is mocking up marine Commander UI. I hope it's not too "out there" but I want it to work nicely on the 360 too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that a joke? I hope you aren't seriously considering a 360 version. It's a distraction from the overall product and honestly, just isn't feasible with a game of this magnitude. An RTS on a console is a laughing matter, really.
<!--quoteo(post=1700047:date=Feb 12 2009, 12:53 AM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 12 2009, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thankyou for winning this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes, you win the internet. and maybe even the metal.
<!--quoteo(post=1699936:date=Feb 10 2009, 03:57 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Feb 10 2009, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1699936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed. The reason it's good isn't because it's skill-based, it's something to do at intervals of rest. Otherwise you would have literally nothing to do but hold w in some cases, which is boring.
If you're not aware, boredom is not good gameplay. You're welcome to suggest something to replace it - which is the point of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It makes no logical sense (within the rules laid out by the game setting), and the only thing it adds is short bursts of speed that cannot be explained without referring to an engine exploit. If it didn't exist the game would be just as good. I have not read anything from you to suggest otherwise.
Your argument that by suddenly removing this the game would be boring is incorrect. Running forwards or wallstrafing forwards does not represent a decrease in boredom. You are still basically doing the same thing. The only skill is holding one extra key. There is no downside to using it because it doesn't make you considerably less mobile. The only possible downside is that you are against a wall is for splashdamage weapons and the ability to dodge attacks, but considering walls stop leaps/lerkflight/blink/bunnyhop dead, you could also consider it has its advantages. Really you can't argue it adds much to the gameplay. Quake III doesn't have it and it does just fine, TF2 doesn't have it and it does just fine. Warsow doesn't have it and it does just fine. Again, I ask you for some sort of valid reason why the game would not survive or be as good without it. Boredom has been debunked as a valid argument. Try again.
For the record I am not anti-pro, in fact I want the game to have sufficient depth for the competitive scene to want to pick it up and keep the game being played for years to come. I just realise that the harder you make it for newbies, the more people put off the game by the considerable barrier to entry, the harder it is for them to compete with veteran players, the slower they progress in ability, the less players make it to competitive standard and the weaker the competitive scene. When you realise this you are free to make some substantiated posts on this topic.
Make the game simple to understand and it will be simple to pick up. It can still be hard to master, but if it's convoluted and enshrined in obscure, non-WYSIWYG engine exploits the community suffers. And if the community suffers, the competitive scene suffers.
Boy Crispy, you do seem to have an excellent grasp of the problem.
I'd sure love to hear all the wonderful suggestions you have to fill the <b>immense gaping hole</b> in gameplay you're suggesting the developers create.
Please describe this so-called "big gaping hole in gameplay" that taking out wallstrafing would create. Because I honestly don't think it exists outside of your imagination.
<!--quoteo(post=1700098:date=Feb 12 2009, 02:39 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 12 2009, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really you can't argue it adds much to the gameplay. Quake III doesn't have it and it does just fine, TF2 doesn't have it and it does just fine. Warsow doesn't have it and it does just fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, there was me thinking that Quake pioneered the technique of strafejumping/bunnyhopping... Frankly, I have yet to hear another person who has played the game competetively agree with removing bunnyhopping. That's over the course of 4-5 years. I Agree that it's obscure and convoluted, but frankly nobody has come up with another skill-based movement system that actually works in around what, 10-14 years since Quakeworld was released? I'd love for the next evolution of that to come with NS2, however going on 10+ years experience, I'm going to bet that it won't. Unless you can come up with a <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->viable alternative<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, removing bunnyhopping from NS2 will be a very, very big mistake.
<!--quoteo(post=1700459:date=Feb 15 2009, 12:58 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Feb 15 2009, 12:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, there was me thinking that Quake pioneered the technique of strafejumping/bunnyhopping... Frankly, I have yet to hear another person who has played the game competetively agree with removing bunnyhopping. That's over the course of 4-5 years. I Agree that it's obscure and convoluted, but frankly nobody has come up with another skill-based movement system that actually works in around what, 10-14 years since Quakeworld was released? I'd love for the next evolution of that to come with NS2, however going on 10+ years experience, I'm going to bet that it won't. Unless you can come up with a <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->viable alternative<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, removing bunnyhopping from NS2 will be a very, very big mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is the new Evolution engine, the physics may not allow for the manipulation for strafe jumping.
I agree, the aliens need a viable tech alternative to gives skulks a slight offensive capability in the early game.
It may be good enough to just give skulks a kind of watered-down leap ability, shorter range and a little slower than the NS1 implementation. The point being made is that by removing bhop you are removing a very large part of the NS metagame, if you don't fill that hole back up with something else, you're still going to have a gaping hole which should be filled with interesting gameplay mechanics.
I don't agree that the double jump is a viable replacement - it's an OK game mechanic, but there's almost zero subtlety to it. You'd need something more.
Precisely, the reason that bhop is so popular is because it is so to speak, an analogue skill rather than a digital skill. It isn't that you can either bhop or you can't, you can be very good at it, or very bad at it (but still nonetheless able to do it). It has depth and it's own skill curve. Stuff like dodge-jumping from UT doesn't have that, either you can dodge jump or you cant.
im not one of the clan or competetive groups, but i tell you what i think:
competition, clanmatches, ladders do not base on little minigames like Bhop, jumping, strafewalking.
competition is made whit 100% fair chances, organisation, coordination, and at last, the Skill. people dont need a skillfull movement exploit to win, Skill isnt determined by that, Skill is reflexes, to do the right thing in different situations and the Practice people put into it.
i know its useless to say it, some people wont listen anyway, but BH or other exploits are not essential to the game.
my main concern is to create a perfect kahraa = marines balance, then whitout it, all competition, even whit minigames, movement exploits and direct support will Fail.
TF2 at high levels shows the depth the double jump has. It's not simply "you can do it or you can't"- a good double jumper is noticeably better than a mediocre double jumper.
I played competitive cs, albeit a long time ago, without bhop/wallstrafe/other movement exploits and where was the gaping hole in the gameplay there? I found it to be more about tactics, reflexes and teamplay.
To say NS lacks gameplay without bhop is an insult to NS's depth. Your basically saying if I can't jump around the map really to increase my speed this game isn't going to work. I'm getting a bit tired of some people saying "were competitive players, we know best".
Do you find games without skill based movement a chore and unplayable?
For the record I use to cs surf, kz and ever other thing that exploited goldsrc mods, so don't think I'm taking this position because of lack of understand or skill.
omg bunny hop is not an exploit, it was intentionally left in the game (for aliens).
Also there are all kinds of skill, and the skill your talking about is the most basic top level skill, bunny hopping is a low level skill, but you need both high and low level skills to make a good skill based competitive game. Here is a sort of break down of how I see skill being distributed
Meta-game: The skill of understanding your opponents and team mates, predicting them, and communicating with them. Strategy: High level thought about the game, general game plan. Tactics: Understanding the balance and rule set of a game, when to use which weapon. This is the strategy of the game on a moment to moment basis Execution: your ability to translate thought into the game world and preform actions effectively.
Here are some examples of what I'm talking about, the first being a classic in competitive play StarCraft. Metagame: Talking to allies and predicting your opponent based on who he is. Strategy: Selecting your Build Order, when to expand, when to attack, when to expect an attack Tactics: Knowing when push the fight, when to pull back. Knowing how you should micro Execution: Physically being able to move quickly while micro managing units and building your base. In the star craft example, it is pretty clear where each of these pieces fits together to make a complete competitive game experience.
NS1 also had all the parts. for marines: Metagame:communication, communication, communication. Strategy: The commander owns this (in theory). Picking you techs, managing res and choosing where to put your effort on the map Tactics: The marines own this. Knowing how to position yourself with respect to map and team mates. Expecting ambushes Execution: Aiming, dodging, and a little bit of movement skills(minimal). Oh and blocking fades :-D
for aliens it actually quite a bit different: metagame:knowing who is dropping what, going which lifeform, being able to depend on people to respond to scouts calling marine positions Strategy:2 fades? lerk-fade? which chamber to drop (aliens are much more limited in their choice of strat) Tactics: Ambushs, baiting, using support classes (lerk). Knowing when and where to fight your battles (aliens have a lot more tactical options, because each alien class is so different and dependent on the others as the game goes on) Execution: Movement skills. (aiming is negligible, and basically non existent)
note that if you take away bhop with out replacing it, early game skulks have no execution requirement to play, player who is good at pushing the buttons, is just as good as a player who is horrible at it. Might sound silly but your removing a part of the skill of the game (and thus the competitive appeal) by taking out execution requirements for the most played alien (early game skulk). (and the gorge for that matter)
In summary, your examples of TF2 and CS being fine with out skill based movement are irrelevant, because in those games both sides have to aim. In ns2 aliens don't aim, so a big part of the skill is gone, the skill is replaced by skill based movement. Imagine a TF2 where one side just gets to use melee weapons, it would be boring to just chase after the opponent and hold down mouse1, add in cool movement abilities the game has a skill component again. Early game skulks, have no movement ability except bhop.
I strongly disagree with faithfully recreating NS' movement quirks that only happened because of HL1 physics exploits(wigglewalking, sidestrafing, bunnyhopping, etc). Depth is good but it should happen through skilled use of intuitive gameplay mechanics. I don't think there's a need to cram twitch skill into every moment of mundane map travel either, highs and lows are important in good game design. IMHO specialized movement is the domain of the aliens, marines should focus on tactical positioning.
Skulks should probably have at least one special jumping technique, like a double jump, side-dodge(UT style), better walljumps, etc. Either that or give them a toned down Leap at Hive 1 as an alt fire. Fades and Lerks of course have their own movement skill.
Comments
fail troll is fail.
my point? Don't make blanket statements about some feature being good or bad because you dislike it, especially when so many people show just how much they like it. Instead try and understand why it so important to people, maybe "a way you can have skillz to move around the map faster by jumping" is a really fun and engaging game feature to players, and by removing it and not replacing it with something similar you create a hole in their game play experience.
lets take an example many people on the other side of the coin would get very angry about. I think building normal turrets and OCs is not terribly fun for players doing it, or players fighting against it. I find the tactics these features encourage to be very stale, and the process of building turrets is boring, the process of taking down turrets is boring. Turret lock downs are also really frustrating for new players, and can totally destroy the game play experience for people who don't have the skills or knowledge to counter the strategy. I'd be happy if ns2 left out turret farming completely.
will this happen, of course not; leaving out this aspect of the game would alienate many long time players, and completely change the face of non-competitive ns. I can imagine however, that turret farming will be modified to address some of the concerns players like myself have with it, and the utter lack of play you see for marine turrets and OCs in competitive play (they are really not viable in a competitive setting at all). The feature will be updated to be more competitive play" friendly" (I hope) and at the very least will be different from what we know in ns1.
It is pretty much exactly the same for bhop to competitive players. It is an important, game changing feature, used in every round of the game... people love it. Some people just love to skulk all day to practice bhop, much like some public game players love to spend every game as gorge and build OCs. I hope bhop will be modified, to make it more new player friendly. Removing the feature of complex and skill based movement completely would leave a big hole in what makes ns fun for many players, just as removing turrets would.
PS. Both turrets and bhop are intentionally part of the game (the dev purposely left in alien bhop in the game)
Actually, that's not *entirely* true, so long as you don't use the word 'boredom', but instead calm'. Refer to this:
<!--QuoteBegin-Gamasutra+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gamasutra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>3. Bring players down to bring them back up. </b>
The roller coaster analogy is an apt one to describe players' engagement and physiological responses. The fun lies in going up and down on the ride. Staying at the same elevation is about as much fun as riding a monorail. Creating emotional drama, of course, is easier said than done in video games.
It seems counterintuitive, but the most intense points of engagement in the titles in our study were often the result of calm moments. Downtime, a period of lower engagement, is not always bad. Periodic but brief lulls in action allow for more intense action sequences and stronger reactions to climactic final battles. The emphasis is on "brief"; take too long, and players are truly disengaged and want (to continue the analogy) to get off the ride.
The most important thing for developers to understand is that the two elements -- big intense events and brief lulls -- must both occur. One doesn't function without the other.
Examples of big, high-intensity moments included epic courtyard battles (Call of Duty 3, Resistance, Gears of War), powerful enemy bosses (Ghost Recon, Gears of War), and swarms of small ones (Half-Life 2, Resistance, and Gears of War).
Creating the calm before the storm is much trickier. We identified a few strategies. In Gears of War, there's a surprising amount of walking around, listening to the radio com -- and these moments explicitly calm players just before hordes of Locusts appear from their emergence holes.
Half-Life 2 used a different method. In between combat, puzzles provided an emotional break from action. As expected, these puzzles did not evoke adrenaline, but they did elicit engagement and more specifically, positive emotion in droves. Engagement was 17 percent higher than the benchmark, and the recorded level of positive emotion upon completion (the "reward" feeling of finishing) was additionally nearly 20 percent higher than the norm. It is Half-Life 2's back and forth between the adrenaline of combat and the reward of puzzles that creates its roller coaster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
from: <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868/shoot_to_thrill_biosensory_.php?page=2" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868...ory_.php?page=2</a>
The AI Director in Left4Dead achieves this too.
Of course, then the argument is up to whether holding W is the right sort of calm, and for the right length of time.
If you disagree with bhop on these forums your basically labeled a troll. Sure, a lot of competitive players have their right to defend it, and being a casual player I am allowed to make up my own damn mind about it. For the record I am all for skulk skill based movement (to an extent) but not marine.
apologies to radix for hijack
from: <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868/shoot_to_thrill_biosensory_.php?page=2" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868...ory_.php?page=2</a>
The AI Director in Left4Dead achieves this too.
Of course, then the argument is up to whether holding W is the right sort of calm, and for the right length of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the Gamasutra quoting begins....
I'm not saying it's wrong, I happen to think they're on to something, it's just that's one of the most quoted articles and I'm sick of it. I now just assume people have heard of it.
from: <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868/shoot_to_thrill_biosensory_.php?page=2" target="_blank">http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3868...ory_.php?page=2</a>
The AI Director in Left4Dead achieves this too.
Of course, then the argument is up to whether holding W is the right sort of calm, and for the right length of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say all the momevents were calm enough for that rollercoaster. It's a little similar as WC3: You're doing something quite intense all the time, but fights still top the usual by a big enough margin.
Meh, Sirlin has it beat in terms of number of quotations by a long shot.
Thankyou for winning this thread.
Gamasutra is the holy word of Richard Garriott.
Katana I love you.
Can we get back on topic? What would make the combative gameplay elements more fun in NS2? If you don't like bunnyhop then suggest something better, unless you can't (which you can't) in which case you should either troll elsewhere or speak to a completely different element of the game (there are more mechanics than just movement in combat).
my point? Don't make blanket statements about some feature being good or bad because you dislike it, especially when so many people show just how much they like it. Instead try and understand why it so important to people, maybe "a way you can have skillz to move around the map faster by jumping" is a really fun and engaging game feature to players, and by removing it and not replacing it with something similar you create a hole in their game play experience.
lets take an example many people on the other side of the coin would get very angry about. I think building normal turrets and OCs is not terribly fun for players doing it, or players fighting against it. I find the tactics these features encourage to be very stale, and the process of building turrets is boring, the process of taking down turrets is boring. Turret lock downs are also really frustrating for new players, and can totally destroy the game play experience for people who don't have the skills or knowledge to counter the strategy. I'd be happy if ns2 left out turret farming completely.
will this happen, of course not; leaving out this aspect of the game would alienate many long time players, and completely change the face of non-competitive ns. I can imagine however, that turret farming will be modified to address some of the concerns players like myself have with it, and the utter lack of play you see for marine turrets and OCs in competitive play (they are really not viable in a competitive setting at all). The feature will be updated to be more competitive play" friendly" (I hope) and at the very least will be different from what we know in ns1.
It is pretty much exactly the same for bhop to competitive players. It is an important, game changing feature, used in every round of the game... people love it. Some people just love to skulk all day to practice bhop, much like some public game players love to spend every game as gorge and build OCs. I hope bhop will be modified, to make it more new player friendly. Removing the feature of complex and skill based movement completely would leave a big hole in what makes ns fun for many players, just as removing turrets would.
PS. Both turrets and bhop are intentionally part of the game (the dev purposely left in alien bhop in the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good post, that pretty much matches my feelings on bhopping
Lets see if I can add something to the competitive landscape here...
How about adding a slight cone of fire difference for the machine guns. A smaller one for small bursts (1-3 bullets), and a gradually bigger one after longer bursts (3-5, 5-8, 8+) until it reaches about an NS 1 cone of fire. This wouldn't be a gigantic difference, but could allow for a precision aiming to take a bigger role
in NS2
I like all suggestions so far, but this wall hopping is somehow odd, is there no gravity in this world <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Feels like this is way to common sense what I'm talking about <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> sorry, but I post it anyway.
Is that a joke? I hope you aren't seriously considering a 360 version. It's a distraction from the overall product and honestly, just isn't feasible with a game of this magnitude. An RTS on a console is a laughing matter, really.
yes, you win the internet. and maybe even the metal.
The reason it's good isn't because it's skill-based, it's something to do at intervals of rest. Otherwise you would have literally nothing to do but hold w in some cases, which is boring.
If you're not aware, boredom is not good gameplay. You're welcome to suggest something to replace it - which is the point of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It makes no logical sense (within the rules laid out by the game setting), and the only thing it adds is short bursts of speed that cannot be explained without referring to an engine exploit. If it didn't exist the game would be just as good. I have not read anything from you to suggest otherwise.
Your argument that by suddenly removing this the game would be boring is incorrect. Running forwards or wallstrafing forwards does not represent a decrease in boredom. You are still basically doing the same thing. The only skill is holding one extra key. There is no downside to using it because it doesn't make you considerably less mobile. The only possible downside is that you are against a wall is for splashdamage weapons and the ability to dodge attacks, but considering walls stop leaps/lerkflight/blink/bunnyhop dead, you could also consider it has its advantages. Really you can't argue it adds much to the gameplay. Quake III doesn't have it and it does just fine, TF2 doesn't have it and it does just fine. Warsow doesn't have it and it does just fine. Again, I ask you for some sort of valid reason why the game would not survive or be as good without it. Boredom has been debunked as a valid argument. Try again.
For the record I am not anti-pro, in fact I want the game to have sufficient depth for the competitive scene to want to pick it up and keep the game being played for years to come. I just realise that the harder you make it for newbies, the more people put off the game by the considerable barrier to entry, the harder it is for them to compete with veteran players, the slower they progress in ability, the less players make it to competitive standard and the weaker the competitive scene. When you realise this you are free to make some substantiated posts on this topic.
Make the game simple to understand and it will be simple to pick up. It can still be hard to master, but if it's convoluted and enshrined in obscure, non-WYSIWYG engine exploits the community suffers. And if the community suffers, the competitive scene suffers.
I'd sure love to hear all the wonderful suggestions you have to fill the <b>immense gaping hole</b> in gameplay you're suggesting the developers create.
Wow, there was me thinking that Quake pioneered the technique of strafejumping/bunnyhopping... Frankly, I have yet to hear another person who has played the game competetively agree with removing bunnyhopping. That's over the course of 4-5 years. I Agree that it's obscure and convoluted, but frankly nobody has come up with another skill-based movement system that actually works in around what, 10-14 years since Quakeworld was released? I'd love for the next evolution of that to come with NS2, however going on 10+ years experience, I'm going to bet that it won't. Unless you can come up with a <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->viable alternative<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, removing bunnyhopping from NS2 will be a very, very big mistake.
The problem is the new Evolution engine, the physics may not allow for the manipulation for strafe jumping.
I agree, the aliens need a viable tech alternative to gives skulks a slight offensive capability in the early game.
competition, clanmatches, ladders do not base on little minigames like Bhop, jumping, strafewalking.
competition is made whit 100% fair chances, organisation, coordination, and at last, the Skill.
people dont need a skillfull movement exploit to win, Skill isnt determined by that, Skill is reflexes, to do the right thing in different situations and the Practice people put into it.
i know its useless to say it, some people wont listen anyway, but BH or other exploits are not essential to the game.
my main concern is to create a perfect kahraa = marines balance, then whitout it, all competition, even whit minigames, movement exploits and direct support will Fail.
darktimes your post contradicts itself.
To say NS lacks gameplay without bhop is an insult to NS's depth. Your basically saying if I can't jump around the map really to increase my speed this game isn't going to work. I'm getting a bit tired of some people saying "were competitive players, we know best".
Do you find games without skill based movement a chore and unplayable?
For the record I use to cs surf, kz and ever other thing that exploited goldsrc mods, so don't think I'm taking this position because of lack of understand or skill.
Also there are all kinds of skill, and the skill your talking about is the most basic top level skill, bunny hopping is a low level skill, but you need both high and low level skills to make a good skill based competitive game. Here is a sort of break down of how I see skill being distributed
Meta-game: The skill of understanding your opponents and team mates, predicting them, and communicating with them.
Strategy: High level thought about the game, general game plan.
Tactics: Understanding the balance and rule set of a game, when to use which weapon. This is the strategy of the game on a moment to moment basis
Execution: your ability to translate thought into the game world and preform actions effectively.
Here are some examples of what I'm talking about, the first being a classic in competitive play StarCraft.
Metagame: Talking to allies and predicting your opponent based on who he is.
Strategy: Selecting your Build Order, when to expand, when to attack, when to expect an attack
Tactics: Knowing when push the fight, when to pull back. Knowing how you should micro
Execution: Physically being able to move quickly while micro managing units and building your base.
In the star craft example, it is pretty clear where each of these pieces fits together to make a complete competitive game experience.
NS1 also had all the parts. for marines:
Metagame:communication, communication, communication.
Strategy: The commander owns this (in theory). Picking you techs, managing res and choosing where to put your effort on the map
Tactics: The marines own this. Knowing how to position yourself with respect to map and team mates. Expecting ambushes
Execution: Aiming, dodging, and a little bit of movement skills(minimal). Oh and blocking fades :-D
for aliens it actually quite a bit different:
metagame:knowing who is dropping what, going which lifeform, being able to depend on people to respond to scouts calling marine positions
Strategy:2 fades? lerk-fade? which chamber to drop (aliens are much more limited in their choice of strat)
Tactics: Ambushs, baiting, using support classes (lerk). Knowing when and where to fight your battles (aliens have a lot more tactical options, because each alien class is so different and dependent on the others as the game goes on)
Execution: Movement skills. (aiming is negligible, and basically non existent)
note that if you take away bhop with out replacing it, early game skulks have no execution requirement to play, player who is good at pushing the buttons, is just as good as a player who is horrible at it. Might sound silly but your removing a part of the skill of the game (and thus the competitive appeal) by taking out execution requirements for the most played alien (early game skulk). (and the gorge for that matter)
In summary, your examples of TF2 and CS being fine with out skill based movement are irrelevant, because in those games both sides have to aim. In ns2 aliens don't aim, so a big part of the skill is gone, the skill is replaced by skill based movement. Imagine a TF2 where one side just gets to use melee weapons, it would be boring to just chase after the opponent and hold down mouse1, add in cool movement abilities the game has a skill component again. Early game skulks, have no movement ability except bhop.
Skulks should probably have at least one special jumping technique, like a double jump, side-dodge(UT style), better walljumps, etc. Either that or give them a toned down Leap at Hive 1 as an alt fire. Fades and Lerks of course have their own movement skill.