<!--quoteo(post=1697752:date=Jan 15 2009, 03:49 PM:name=Killer Ricochet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Killer Ricochet @ Jan 15 2009, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the problem is it's psychological effects... In a 2 vs 1 battle that two skulks should absolutely win over a solo marine, a commander decides "This guy must survive", uses 22 res on medkits on him and he kills the skulks. In this situation, experiencied players would take as "2 shotguns less to worry about", but someone starting the game would think "WTF? This is overpower! No way, I should've killed him!".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, I think in situations like this it's important not to focus so hard on balance that you forget the fun factor of the game. Avoiding frustrating experiences for the players is something that warrants attention, and tweaking for perfect balance can come afterwards.
You're falling into the same limit mentality that you did with ramboing marines. Interactual combat would solve this without linearalizing commander strategies OR raging solo skulks but I'm sure the dev team will invariably inherit transactional design from NS1.
Point is, the game is not perfect and for whatever reason NS2 will probably inherit many of its flaws.
Strategy games are frustrating. Simple minded people will always rage in a scenario because they refuse (or fail to bother) to adapt.
<!--quoteo(post=1697759:date=Jan 15 2009, 05:09 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jan 15 2009, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're falling into the same limit mentality that you did with ramboing marines. Interactual combat would solve this without linearalizing commander strategies OR raging solo skulks but I'm sure the dev team will invariably inherit transactional design from NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody knows what that means dude, if you've got actual suggestions then just say them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Point is, the game is not perfect and for whatever reason NS2 will probably inherit many of its flaws.
Strategy games are frustrating. Simple minded people will always rage in a scenario because they refuse (or fail to bother) to adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's an incredibly counterproductive mindset. We're looking right now at a flaw which can be fixed and you're opposed just for the sake of leaving NS exactly as it is. Well, practically everything we've heard about NS2 so far is dramatically different - alien commander, dynamic infestation, alt fire, individual res pools... Worrying about changes to the small stuff at this point is just silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1697755:date=Jan 15 2009, 09:28 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Jan 15 2009, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed, I think in situations like this it's important not to focus so hard on balance that you forget the fun factor of the game. Avoiding frustrating experiences for the players is something that warrants attention, and tweaking for perfect balance can come afterwards.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends really on the player. My NS fun factor comes partitally from adapting to these. You'll most likely need something a little frustrating to create something as rewarding and long lasting enjoyment as NS is. Achieving the balance between instant fun and long term learning is always quite tricky.
Btw, why is everyone repeating that NS2 is a whole different game? I'm sure it's going to change completely anyway, now we are just discussing what were good elements in NS. I'd rather pick ideas because they are good, not because NS desperately needs to change in every aspect.
It always annoyed me that commander requires twitch skill. He is commanding squads tactically thinking about upgrades and equipment. Not spamming med packs around the floor of his players.
<!--quoteo(post=1697801:date=Jan 16 2009, 05:52 PM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steppin'razor @ Jan 16 2009, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It always annoyed me that commander requires twitch skill. He is commanding squads tactically thinking about upgrades and equipment. Not spamming med packs around the floor of his players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Still, that's the way to go until the commanding reaches some chesslike depth. Decisionmaking often gets very repetetive and easy if that's all you get to do. I guess the optimal situation would be so that the commander wouldn't have to worry so much about the medpacking, so that he could use the decisionmaking vs. support balance as he sees best.
<!--quoteo(post=1697811:date=Jan 16 2009, 06:30 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Jan 16 2009, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697811"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Still, that's the way to go until the commanding reaches some chesslike depth. Decisionmaking often gets very repetetive and easy if that's all you get to do. I guess the optimal situation would be so that the commander wouldn't have to worry so much about the medpacking, so that he could use the decisionmaking vs. support balance as he sees best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guys, youre missing the point here. Decision making = something you can do in under a second. If you remove the skill-dependent ability to medpack, coms would have nothing to do for 80% of the time they're sat in the com chair. Tactics and decision making are important aspects of commanding I agree, theyre something you only learn through experience. But they take hardly any time to actually do during a game. There would be very litte to do except drop RTs and get upgrades.
Then just add other things to do (although please don't put in some <b>unrelated</b> mini-games), give the commander more of an all-seeing-eye, rather than less (minimap's a start). Make it so that he knows how the game's flowing and why (i think territories would help), where his marines are at all times. The Commander should be able to direct and <b>command</b>, rather than baby-sit, imo. This'll be balanced out by the fact that the aliens will also have a commander. So it'll be like a commander vs commander game, with free-thinking grunts doing the work. Unless your view of the Alien commander is like Stix's though, but it can still be adapted. And also, personally I don't mind if you steal elements from other games or media, so long as, as a whole, you have made an excellent game. Who cares if the derivative is a derivative, if it's better, right?
<!--quoteo(post=1697833:date=Jan 17 2009, 02:13 AM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Jan 17 2009, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, youre missing the point here. Decision making = something you can do in under a second. If you remove the skill-dependent ability to medpack, coms would have nothing to do for 80% of the time they're sat in the com chair. Tactics and decision making are important aspects of commanding I agree, theyre something you only learn through experience. But they take hardly any time to actually do during a game. There would be very litte to do except drop RTs and get upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's partitially what I was trying to say. Thanks for clearing up. The hurry also adds a lot of challenge for the decisions as you may not have time to plan ahead every used res bit and marine positioning and scout every node, chamber position and lifeform count. A good comm will make the good decisions quickly while a semi-decent comm can tell afterwards what went wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it so that he knows how the game's flowing and why (i think territories would help), where his marines are at all times. The Commander should be able to direct and command, rather than baby-sit, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How does this differ from the present, except that medding is removed? I'd say the sound scouting is quite rewarding and interesting way of monitoring the opponent's game flow and the commander already has almost everything he needs for monitoring the marine flow.
Smaller server would be optimal for the commanding part though, now the whole map just gets a random spread from both teams and you'll have to spend more time medding the less responsive marines.
Bang on the money dude, good job. I'm glad I can finally see eye-to-eye with you on something, as a long time ago I saw you as on the same level as SmoodCroozn etc
<!--quoteo(post=1697752:date=Jan 15 2009, 03:49 PM:name=Killer Ricochet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Killer Ricochet @ Jan 15 2009, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the problem is it's psychological effects... In a 2 vs 1 battle that two skulks should absolutely win over a solo marine, a commander decides "This guy must survive", uses 22 res on medkits on him and he kills the skulks. In this situation, experiencied players would take as "2 shotguns less to worry about", but someone starting the game would think "WTF? This is overpower! No way, I should've killed him!".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should they? You never seem to explain your points as to why. You seem to have some sort of understanding of the game that does not generalize to what the reality is.
<!--quoteo(post=1697887:date=Jan 17 2009, 11:56 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Jan 17 2009, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why should they? You never seem to explain your points as to why. You seem to have some sort of understanding of the game that does not generalize to what the reality is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reality I am talking is about the novice point of view. What I mean is that medding looks and fells overpowered, but it isn't (just annoying, my opnion). After so many versions of raw balancing, this is what we expect.
But no one understands all game mechanics at first time it plays, even reading all manuals. Expecially when they are metagame related. So you can imagine the average player wouldn't come to the game guessing that, even when marine's feet sparks with meds and (s)he is machinegunned down, (s)he's is doing a good job.
The example: You prepares an ambush, attack in the best situation, pickup a distracted rambo building a RT, everything is at you favor. But you still beeing killing. And, somehow, you still winning? From a metagame point of view, yes, you have put you team foward. But the first impression is what happened at the momment, not what "will happen". This is the point.
And I didn't think about a better solution yet than including metagaming explanations in the hint system. But I doubt it will work, as NS2 will be different from NS1, and maybe few, some, most or all strategies of NS1 don't work in NS2.
What is the difference between medspam and armor upgrades? If you think that medspam is broken, you must hate armor3. You must hate heavy armor even more.
The point he's failing to articulate or argue is a good one. New players are easily turned off by what they don't expect and especially by frustrating consequences that they reactively deem unfair.
If you're building a strategy game though, you can't ignore the strategy parts. Even someone like me who believes that banter should supercede any and all odds has to confess that there are simply sometimes when a game becomes prohibitively hard to win.
Best you can do I think is hold the player's hand at the beginning and hope they're interested in what your game has to offer. The other option is to sell out and make a screw-off game. The thing that gives UWE some appeal (and the reason I still post here) is that they seem to want a game that will be interesting beyond the first two weeks.
<!--quoteo(post=1697892:date=Jan 18 2009, 04:39 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Jan 18 2009, 04:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is the difference between medspam and armor upgrades? If you think that medspam is broken, you must hate armor3. You must hate heavy armor even more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, you don't start with armor3 or heavy armor. If you did, it WOULD be overpower. It's not because it's heavily delayed.
I never said medspam is broken, so far it wasn't removed from NS1 after all these years. I said it looks overpower to newer players. But, armor upgrades don't give the same feeling of impotency.
They increase defense, make you last longer, direct explanation. So if you die just because he was Armor 1, it makes direct sense. It's not metagame, you died because he had more armor points, and lost because this. It's completely expectable to someone who have read the manual.
But if you die because he was medded, even dying, you put their team behind (and, as side-effect, you put your team foward). It wasn't expectable to, suddenly, his health recovering as magic, and you died, and you WIN!
The thing is medding creates a lot of fun for commanders, if you take it out or throttle it, you're removing one of NS's staples just so that you don't rage newbies.
Like I said before, I would hold the players hand, but would strive to never compromise the quality of the game once he gets on his feet. That makes the newbie, once he gets everything, feel cheated, as though he's wasted his money. Intuition is only valuable until the player decides not to ragequit, and even then only from a business standpoint.
<!--quoteo(post=1697930:date=Jan 18 2009, 05:43 PM:name=Killer Ricochet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Killer Ricochet @ Jan 18 2009, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Somethings looks more overpower than others. The capacity of instant healing wins over one bite more, in the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are counters to medspam. Such as lerk spores, focus and taking down res.
<!--quoteo(post=1697932:date=Jan 18 2009, 09:42 PM:name=Firewater)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Firewater @ Jan 18 2009, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are counters to medspam. Such as lerk spores, focus and taking down res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, there is counters. If there weren't counters, then medding would be overpowered. Fortunally, there is a way to fend it.
But the problem is that it's not appealing, it just gives the feeling of beeing way too appealing.
Ask someone that never played NS if is fear catching someone that was in completely unalerted and be killed anyway. You should imagine what (s)he will say.
My teory of why it looks so strong is because actually, it IS strong. But it's balanced by the cost of using, that is so high that is unviable of a comm abuse of it, unless (s)he wants to lose. But, endgame, tell me if it's not appealing a wave of autohealing marine swepping the hives with sieges! Anyway, in this situation, even beeing overpower, it's fear what is happening, cause the alien team had the entire game to prevent it. They failed. The result is this.
And I just pointed the problem, because I couldn't find any viable solution. All of them have bigger flaws than the current way. Or it keeps like is now or a lot of things change. I hope changes, anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1697930:date=Jan 18 2009, 10:43 PM:name=Killer Ricochet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Killer Ricochet @ Jan 18 2009, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Somethings looks more overpower than others. The capacity of instant healing wins over one bite more, in the case.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the chances of a new player being frustrated by medspam are infinitesimally small compared to new players being frustrated by "good" +movement fades. How many times does a new player encounter medspam anyway?
<!--quoteo(post=1697944:date=Jan 19 2009, 06:55 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Jan 19 2009, 06:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the chances of a new player being frustrated by medspam are infinitesimally small compared to new players being frustrated by "good" +movement fades. How many times does a new player encounter medspam anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, it's so easy to fade now. Medspam isn't a problem in ns. A decent medspam of ten medpacks is the equivalent cost of two shotguns, or one shotgun and two welders. I'd take the equipment in most situations, rather than overspending to keep one marine alive for a few more seconds - especially when he's probably going to be killed by the next alien comes in!
Note: if I had a LOT of res, already had weapons AND the marine was likely to kill a lerk or fade in the conflict, I would most likely medspam him.
<!--quoteo(post=1697985:date=Jan 19 2009, 08:03 PM:name=themeatshield)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(themeatshield @ Jan 19 2009, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, it's so easy to fade now. Medspam isn't a problem in ns. A decent medspam of ten medpacks is the equivalent cost of two shotguns, or one shotgun and two welders. I'd take the equipment in most situations, rather than overspending to keep one marine alive for a few more seconds - especially when he's probably going to be killed by the next alien comes in!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't got the point. I've already pointed that there is nothing wrong with medspam in terms of gameplay. The problems is emotional, like ambushing perfectly and still beeing killed, what it's not cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1697944:date=Jan 19 2009, 04:55 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Jan 19 2009, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the chances of a new player being frustrated by medspam are infinitesimally small compared to new players being frustrated by "good" +movement fades. How many times does a new player encounter medspam anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade is a constantly headache swiping lifes of you away. The medspam, when not understood, is more seem as cheatlike blow, because it gives an "injusticed" feeling, while the fade gives the "133t player owning you" sensation. I would be much more pissed off if someone was using a cheap tricky in me instead of fragging me in a row because (s)he "was" amazing skilled.
And a new player faces medspam when (s)he tries to ambush marines instead of straightlining. The own manual says it (skulk is an ambusher/parasiter/scout), and, even if I did placed towers in the first attempt of commanding and was ejected, I never straightlined in a NS map, expecially because makes more sense biting their back than beeing under (s)he's crosshair.
With increasing fast-pace and arcadish style, patience became a rarity in gaming. I hope the new players be perseverant enough to handle these situations and simply don't switch game because "He healed uberly" or "I can't possibly kill that fade".
We could keep here discuting if it's a problem or not, but I don't think it will move us to anywhere (see anti-rambo system thread). So, considering the problem isn't the medspam itself, but the lack of information: The unique solution I thought would be including these situations in the hint system of the other thread, in a way they cover some nasty situations. So, for example:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Ambushed a marine that was healed and (s)he killed you: Their commander can heal his/her units, at a very high cost. If you note the marine is beeing healed, stick the most time possibly on him to waste the most you can of their resources. -Given 2 bites and died because marine had armor upgrade: Marines already have researched more durable armor. Thus, will be more difficult to take down a foe. Be more agressive while planning with more caution your attacks! -Killed by shotgun while skulking/gorge/lerking: Shotguns packs a punch of damage, and this weapon is lethal against the specimen you were using at moment. Be more stealth. -Killed by fade while alone: Fades are way too strong and fast to a single marine face it. Stick with your teammates to multiply firepower and you cover each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a good solution because it's is easy to do, reduce the changes necessary to make the game newbie friendlier and would be useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1697985:date=Jan 19 2009, 10:03 PM:name=themeatshield)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(themeatshield @ Jan 19 2009, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd take the equipment in most situations, rather than overspending to keep one marine alive for a few more seconds - especially when he's probably going to be killed by the next alien comes in!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If those meds allowed you to lock down one exit from the hive (which is possible with just 1 lmg marine in earlygame) and basically give you map control over 1/3 to 1/2 of the map for a minute or so ... don't you think that's worth it? Most situations I agree, but your "most situations" means mid-late game which youre experienced with on publics, not the "most situations" which happen often in competetive games.
<!--quoteo(post=1697991:date=Jan 19 2009, 11:56 PM:name=marks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marks @ Jan 19 2009, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If those meds allowed you to lock down one exit from the hive (which is possible with just 1 lmg marine in earlygame) and basically give you map control over 1/3 to 1/2 of the map for a minute or so ... don't you think that's worth it? Most situations I agree, but your "most situations" means mid-late game which youre experienced with on publics, not the "most situations" which happen often in competetive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this comment? Are you arguing with me?
I concede the point that there are situations where a medspam may be an appropriate decision, but maintain my overall point that medspams are used at the cost of other equipment.
I also understand that keeping a marine alive can be very important early in a 6v6 game, as there aren't five more coming up behind him to back him up. I haven't just played ns in 30 player spamfests, i usually play on servers with >18 people (or pugs, if i'm lucky).
I've had public players commend me on successfully medding a marine against skulks, so players with some degree of understanding of the game obviously seem to think that aiming meds is impressive. I have maybe seen 4 or 5 commanders in the past year of playing NS that could aim meds with any degree of accuracy. Everyone else is trying to learn how to keep up with med requests, not leap ahead of them.
Honestly, I think this topic is a solution in search of a problem. Even its creator agrees that there are counters to medspam. If its "annoying" then so be it. Getting spawn camped is annoying, so i do my best to prevent that from happening. That does not mean it should be removed from the game.
I am confident that once more information about the game's mechanics are released, there will be less topics like this and more topics about the relevant gameplay issues in NS2.
Agreed partially. If a game aspect can be traded/modified to turn it less annoying/newbie friendly, still balanced and don't kill the depth of the game, it's a gain, not a lost. But I don't think this is the case of the medspam.
<!--quoteo(post=1698235:date=Jan 22 2009, 05:27 PM:name=Killer Ricochet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Killer Ricochet @ Jan 22 2009, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1698235"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed partially. If a game aspect can be traded/modified to turn it less annoying/newbie friendly, still balanced and don't kill the depth of the game, it's a gain, not a lost. But I don't think this is the case of the medspam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion instead of limiting some factors and watering down gameplay for the sake of the lesser skilled, it would be better educate the playerbase on what tactics work and what tactics are ineffective. The game is only a stimulus which is created by the developers for the best interest of the community. They cannot control how people will react to it however. In order for there to be deep gameplay there has to be some sort of complexity. That would mean deeper understanding of fact that if a commander spent 20 res on a marine while you were trying to kill it, that the other team lost a of resources, rather than a shallow explanation of "OMG I BIT HIM 10 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE??!?!" With that complexity will come attritition from players who do not understand the gameplay, or are simply not entertained by it. The more complex and deep the game is, the more enjoyable it is for the playerbase overrall, both competitive and casual. However, the more of a turn off it is by those who do not understand the gameplay.
Comments
Agreed, I think in situations like this it's important not to focus so hard on balance that you forget the fun factor of the game. Avoiding frustrating experiences for the players is something that warrants attention, and tweaking for perfect balance can come afterwards.
Point is, the game is not perfect and for whatever reason NS2 will probably inherit many of its flaws.
Strategy games are frustrating. Simple minded people will always rage in a scenario because they refuse (or fail to bother) to adapt.
Nobody knows what that means dude, if you've got actual suggestions then just say them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Point is, the game is not perfect and for whatever reason NS2 will probably inherit many of its flaws.
Strategy games are frustrating. Simple minded people will always rage in a scenario because they refuse (or fail to bother) to adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's an incredibly counterproductive mindset. We're looking right now at a flaw which can be fixed and you're opposed just for the sake of leaving NS exactly as it is. Well, practically everything we've heard about NS2 so far is dramatically different - alien commander, dynamic infestation, alt fire, individual res pools... Worrying about changes to the small stuff at this point is just silly.
Depends really on the player. My NS fun factor comes partitally from adapting to these. You'll most likely need something a little frustrating to create something as rewarding and long lasting enjoyment as NS is. Achieving the balance between instant fun and long term learning is always quite tricky.
Btw, why is everyone repeating that NS2 is a whole different game? I'm sure it's going to change completely anyway, now we are just discussing what were good elements in NS. I'd rather pick ideas because they are good, not because NS desperately needs to change in every aspect.
Still, that's the way to go until the commanding reaches some chesslike depth. Decisionmaking often gets very repetetive and easy if that's all you get to do. I guess the optimal situation would be so that the commander wouldn't have to worry so much about the medpacking, so that he could use the decisionmaking vs. support balance as he sees best.
Guys, youre missing the point here. Decision making = something you can do in under a second. If you remove the skill-dependent ability to medpack, coms would have nothing to do for 80% of the time they're sat in the com chair. Tactics and decision making are important aspects of commanding I agree, theyre something you only learn through experience. But they take hardly any time to actually do during a game. There would be very litte to do except drop RTs and get upgrades.
And also, personally I don't mind if you steal elements from other games or media, so long as, as a whole, you have made an excellent game. Who cares if the derivative is a derivative, if it's better, right?
That's partitially what I was trying to say. Thanks for clearing up. The hurry also adds a lot of challenge for the decisions as you may not have time to plan ahead every used res bit and marine positioning and scout every node, chamber position and lifeform count. A good comm will make the good decisions quickly while a semi-decent comm can tell afterwards what went wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it so that he knows how the game's flowing and why (i think territories would help), where his marines are at all times. The Commander should be able to direct and command, rather than baby-sit, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does this differ from the present, except that medding is removed? I'd say the sound scouting is quite rewarding and interesting way of monitoring the opponent's game flow and the commander already has almost everything he needs for monitoring the marine flow.
Smaller server would be optimal for the commanding part though, now the whole map just gets a random spread from both teams and you'll have to spend more time medding the less responsive marines.
Why should they? You never seem to explain your points as to why. You seem to have some sort of understanding of the game that does not generalize to what the reality is.
The reality I am talking is about the novice point of view. What I mean is that medding looks and fells overpowered, but it isn't (just annoying, my opnion). After so many versions of raw balancing, this is what we expect.
But no one understands all game mechanics at first time it plays, even reading all manuals. Expecially when they are metagame related. So you can imagine the average player wouldn't come to the game guessing that, even when marine's feet sparks with meds and (s)he is machinegunned down, (s)he's is doing a good job.
The example: You prepares an ambush, attack in the best situation, pickup a distracted rambo building a RT, everything is at you favor. But you still beeing killing. And, somehow, you still winning? From a metagame point of view, yes, you have put you team foward. But the first impression is what happened at the momment, not what "will happen". This is the point.
And I didn't think about a better solution yet than including metagaming explanations in the hint system. But I doubt it will work, as NS2 will be different from NS1, and maybe few, some, most or all strategies of NS1 don't work in NS2.
If you're building a strategy game though, you can't ignore the strategy parts. Even someone like me who believes that banter should supercede any and all odds has to confess that there are simply sometimes when a game becomes prohibitively hard to win.
Best you can do I think is hold the player's hand at the beginning and hope they're interested in what your game has to offer. The other option is to sell out and make a screw-off game. The thing that gives UWE some appeal (and the reason I still post here) is that they seem to want a game that will be interesting beyond the first two weeks.
First, you don't start with armor3 or heavy armor. If you did, it WOULD be overpower. It's not because it's heavily delayed.
I never said medspam is broken, so far it wasn't removed from NS1 after all these years. I said it looks overpower to newer players. But, armor upgrades don't give the same feeling of impotency.
They increase defense, make you last longer, direct explanation. So if you die just because he was Armor 1, it makes direct sense. It's not metagame, you died because he had more armor points, and lost because this. It's completely expectable to someone who have read the manual.
But if you die because he was medded, even dying, you put their team behind (and, as side-effect, you put your team foward). It wasn't expectable to, suddenly, his health recovering as magic, and you died, and you WIN!
Like I said before, I would hold the players hand, but would strive to never compromise the quality of the game once he gets on his feet. That makes the newbie, once he gets everything, feel cheated, as though he's wasted his money. Intuition is only valuable until the player decides not to ragequit, and even then only from a business standpoint.
There are counters to medspam. Such as lerk spores, focus and taking down res.
Yes, there is counters. If there weren't counters, then medding would be overpowered. Fortunally, there is a way to fend it.
But the problem is that it's not appealing, it just gives the feeling of beeing way too appealing.
Ask someone that never played NS if is fear catching someone that was in completely unalerted and be killed anyway. You should imagine what (s)he will say.
My teory of why it looks so strong is because actually, it IS strong. But it's balanced by the cost of using, that is so high that is unviable of a comm abuse of it, unless (s)he wants to lose. But, endgame, tell me if it's not appealing a wave of autohealing marine swepping the hives with sieges! Anyway, in this situation, even beeing overpower, it's fear what is happening, cause the alien team had the entire game to prevent it. They failed. The result is this.
And I just pointed the problem, because I couldn't find any viable solution. All of them have bigger flaws than the current way. Or it keeps like is now or a lot of things change. I hope changes, anyway.
I think the chances of a new player being frustrated by medspam are infinitesimally small compared to new players being frustrated by "good" +movement fades. How many times does a new player encounter medspam anyway?
Lol, it's so easy to fade now. Medspam isn't a problem in ns. A decent medspam of ten medpacks is the equivalent cost of two shotguns, or one shotgun and two welders. I'd take the equipment in most situations, rather than overspending to keep one marine alive for a few more seconds - especially when he's probably going to be killed by the next alien comes in!
Note: if I had a LOT of res, already had weapons AND the marine was likely to kill a lerk or fade in the conflict, I would most likely medspam him.
You didn't got the point. I've already pointed that there is nothing wrong with medspam in terms of gameplay. The problems is emotional, like ambushing perfectly and still beeing killed, what it's not cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1697944:date=Jan 19 2009, 04:55 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Jan 19 2009, 04:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1697944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the chances of a new player being frustrated by medspam are infinitesimally small compared to new players being frustrated by "good" +movement fades. How many times does a new player encounter medspam anyway?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade is a constantly headache swiping lifes of you away. The medspam, when not understood, is more seem as cheatlike blow, because it gives an "injusticed" feeling, while the fade gives the "133t player owning you" sensation. I would be much more pissed off if someone was using a cheap tricky in me instead of fragging me in a row because (s)he "was" amazing skilled.
And a new player faces medspam when (s)he tries to ambush marines instead of straightlining. The own manual says it (skulk is an ambusher/parasiter/scout), and, even if I did placed towers in the first attempt of commanding and was ejected, I never straightlined in a NS map, expecially because makes more sense biting their back than beeing under (s)he's crosshair.
With increasing fast-pace and arcadish style, patience became a rarity in gaming. I hope the new players be perseverant enough to handle these situations and simply don't switch game because "He healed uberly" or "I can't possibly kill that fade".
We could keep here discuting if it's a problem or not, but I don't think it will move us to anywhere (see anti-rambo system thread). So, considering the problem isn't the medspam itself, but the lack of information:
The unique solution I thought would be including these situations in the hint system of the other thread, in a way they cover some nasty situations. So, for example:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Ambushed a marine that was healed and (s)he killed you:
Their commander can heal his/her units, at a very high cost. If you note the marine is beeing healed, stick the most time possibly on him to waste the most you can of their resources.
-Given 2 bites and died because marine had armor upgrade:
Marines already have researched more durable armor. Thus, will be more difficult to take down a foe. Be more agressive while planning with more caution your attacks!
-Killed by shotgun while skulking/gorge/lerking:
Shotguns packs a punch of damage, and this weapon is lethal against the specimen you were using at moment. Be more stealth.
-Killed by fade while alone:
Fades are way too strong and fast to a single marine face it. Stick with your teammates to multiply firepower and you cover each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a good solution because it's is easy to do, reduce the changes necessary to make the game newbie friendlier and would be useful.
If those meds allowed you to lock down one exit from the hive (which is possible with just 1 lmg marine in earlygame) and basically give you map control over 1/3 to 1/2 of the map for a minute or so ... don't you think that's worth it? Most situations I agree, but your "most situations" means mid-late game which youre experienced with on publics, not the "most situations" which happen often in competetive games.
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this comment? Are you arguing with me?
I concede the point that there are situations where a medspam may be an appropriate decision, but maintain my overall point that medspams are used at the cost of other equipment.
I also understand that keeping a marine alive can be very important early in a 6v6 game, as there aren't five more coming up behind him to back him up. I haven't just played ns in 30 player spamfests, i usually play on servers with >18 people (or pugs, if i'm lucky).
I am confident that once more information about the game's mechanics are released, there will be less topics like this and more topics about the relevant gameplay issues in NS2.
In my opinion instead of limiting some factors and watering down gameplay for the sake of the lesser skilled, it would be better educate the playerbase on what tactics work and what tactics are ineffective. The game is only a stimulus which is created by the developers for the best interest of the community. They cannot control how people will react to it however. In order for there to be deep gameplay there has to be some sort of complexity. That would mean deeper understanding of fact that if a commander spent 20 res on a marine while you were trying to kill it, that the other team lost a of resources, rather than a shallow explanation of "OMG I BIT HIM 10 TIMES AND HE DIDNT DIE??!?!" With that complexity will come attritition from players who do not understand the gameplay, or are simply not entertained by it. The more complex and deep the game is, the more enjoyable it is for the playerbase overrall, both competitive and casual. However, the more of a turn off it is by those who do not understand the gameplay.