Well, I'm not sure about this whole killing thing myself. It's good for getting rid of campers, but.... I just watched my friend play a game as aliens. I'm not sure the specifics, but their first and only hive got taken down. However, within a minute him and the other gorge had not one, but two! hives going up, and within several more minutes they had the 3rd. Not sure how long it takes for the killing-trigger to kill you, but in this case I believe it would have ended a great game far too early. All the marines did was rush one way while the aliens rushed another. Marines beat off the first rush, and, thanks to faster respawning, moved in-mass to the hive, knocking it out but losing their CC in the proccess. If it weren't for the fact that this was a 1.02 server, marines would have won in spite of the fact that they lost their CC and IPs... *shrug* just goes to show, llamas may hurt people, but anti-llama measures can hurt just as much.
Who honestly cares about these "lamers" who hide at the end of the game, give the marines jetpacks and make it so aliens can't cloak when all the sensory chambers are dead
<!--QuoteBegin--Ganja+Nov 28 2002, 12:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ganja @ Nov 28 2002, 12:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who honestly cares about these "lamers" who hide at the end of the game, give the marines jetpacks and make it so aliens can't cloak when all the sensory chambers are dead<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that's all you did, you would still have to scour every dark corner of the map with your flashlight, which is plenty cause for concern. Fortunately, there are other options.
Scanner sweep, any comm who doesnt scanner sweep EVERY vent after all hives are destroyed should be ejected, and have a labotomy. This is an Awful harsh measure that a simple Vote-kick system could easily take care off. its swatting a fly with a sledgehammer. Sure tehre are llama and lamer gamers out there, but a vote kick would EASILY tkae care of them (considering the entire team isnt Lllam/Lamer like minded) This is a good idea to solve a bad problem, but it goes too far, causing another, larger problem in its wake.
A single skulk hides in a vent at the end of a game. Not discounting:
a) disgruntled alien guys telling the marines precisely where he is b) scanner sweeps finding him c) someone going spectator to point out where he is if he's really 'ruining the game' d) handing out jetpacks which cost a measly 9 RP
A feature is included that kills off the alien team without a hive, completely discounting any chances of comebacks once that last hive is down.
Either keep it, and introduce the SAME COUNTER for Marines once a constructed CC/Infnatry portal is gone, ie, mirrored for both teams, OR get rid of it.
Really, no thought seems to have gone into this at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--DanSTC+Nov 27 2002, 05:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DanSTC @ Nov 27 2002, 05:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay. For those that are complaining about this, need I remind you of something: When the aliens rush the marines, if they manage to kill off their command chair or spawn points early on, the game is pretty much over. The fact that aliens now have a weakness like this means that they'll actually have to worry about defending THEIR own tails from a rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ok heres the post that ends all..if all hives are gone.. think of it as there are no more bacteriums there.. and every bacteria is being wiped out because there is no hive to support the bacteria hence making aliens decay and do crap that makes them die QUICK ther... but i still dun really like this dying idea...
Where marines run off to the hive and kill the hive first thing off, so they win automatically!
Enjoy, people!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats a good point, but the chances of them pulling it off are slim, but its still lame.
I don't like the aliens dying idea, either. Take it back out! Please!
I can definitely see where you're coming from, though. Without hives, it's possible that nano/bacterial gridlock would cease, and the nanos would be able to start eating the kharra for breakfast. So, yeah, it fits in with the storyline, but in all fairness, it should work the same way for marines as it does for ailens. If you loose all your spawn portals and CCs, or whatever, then there aren't enough working factories pumping out nanos to maintina the marines' personal nano clouds, and the bacteria starts killing off the marines.
I would much rather you remove the slow death, but if you can't then you should at least balance it with a simmilar marine slow death.
1.) Aliens tried their best to rush for the CC 2.) They killed CC 3.) Marines survive because there's no countdown or lose health 4.) with or without the armory and infantry portal, they all go to the hive 5.) Marines kill hive 6.) Marines find somewhere to hide 7.) Aliens slowly dying because of the ticking countdown 8.) All aliens die, marines win.
<b>It hardly seem fair to the aliens</b>.
If it is going to happen to the aliens, do it to the marines too! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I understand that the devs feel that its a problem that they need to address. I think that going overboard and doing things like insulting the devs is completely uncalled for. However, I really do believe that there's a better solution that can be found.
I think that a five minute delay would be a lot easier to swallow. I suppose an alternative to the aliens dying would perhaps be to make it so that if the aliens go for 3 minutes or so without a hive that they become visible to all marines as per motion tracking.
If anybody bothered to read the manual and the fluff therein. It says when all the hives are killed the bacterium that prevades the entire base starts to degrade and all remaining alien structures and creatures die off. This is because the bacterium that feeds and regenerates them has dissappeared.
Besides, unless the marines are complete doofuses (and if they took out your last hive they aren't) you'll never win anyway at this point, you are just prolonging a game that should be restarted with a clean slate. There may be a few that think the rare comeback is exciting, but it just annoys most of us, cause it doesn't happen.
End of the alien rush? Sounds like it. If the skulks hide and ambush marines on the way to your hive, they won't take it anyway. I think the early skulk rush is a worthless and wasteful tactic. It rarely succeeds and those same skulks would get more kills and do more good ambushing careless marines in the corridors. Make those hoomies slow down a bit.
Well if the Bacterium VS nanos, shouldnt marines with No CC and no If Portals, have no backup against the Bacterium. What about the lame Jetpack 'rine who gets to sit in vents and make games last long. he just wasting time, he cant build anything, a Skulk with enough resources could "hypothetically" evolve to gorge and build up a hive. Sure its hard to fight back once lost a hive, but the Marine cant do jack but hide. why punish the Aliens when they have a chance, when its the Marines (llamas come in both sizes) who waste time cos they have NO chance whatsoever. Make it work both ways, or take it away, or add a 3-5 min safe period in which the Bacterium slowly gets eaten, but no comm chair and no inf portals, Marines should start dropping like flies if Aliens do.
The only problem I have with the entire "this would make more sense in this context" is that while aliens are taking damage, they still have hivesight, upgrade abilities, etc. Its not like the bacterium network has somehow "Degraded", because if the aliens can still keep in contact with their teammates and even still use chamber upgrades, then the bacterium network has hardly "degraded" to the point where aliens are somehow unable to sustain themselves. The old, outdated manual says that hivesight was an ability that slowly faded within twenty or so hours--why is it that the aliens should start dying before they lose their mental contact with one another, or their upgrade abilities?
Also, please note that defense chambers can negate the effects of this health loss--so if the cheapass marine with a nade launcher flies in and takes out the hive, all you have to do is sit around, or upgrade to regeneration to survive a little longer. Does anyone know if the regeneration ability completely counters this health loss?
Also, on an unrelated note, it could just be me, but it seems like when you're onos and you pick the regeneration ability, and you sit next to 1 defense chamber, you regenerate slower with the chamber's regeneration rate than if you were just sitting out there alone. This could just be me, but I happened to be somewhat tired the night I observed this (and so, rather impatient as well).
I honestly think that any competent commander with comm sweep should be able to take out and find the bugs. On some maps/places (esp vents), comm sweep sometimes doesn't work/doesn't show the blue line thing but you still see aliens. I'm the type of commander who heavily relies on comm sweep--as a result, few aliens stay alive for very long.
anyways, the slow death from a loss of all hives goes back to my entire theory that Natural Selection will come into conflict with what's best for the public as a whole, and what's best for clannies as a whole. The entire slow death move was done to eliminate llamas--but by doing so, it really limits the possibilities of alien comebacks from a very clever, quick marine rush. My only comments would be that it would be nice if such "llama protection" tactics were made <i>optional</i> instead of mandatory--that way, serious play wouldn't be hindered by a procedure that was reserved for llamas--unless the dev team really thinks this adds to the integral dynamic of the game (while coincidentally killing llamas).
I think that voice comm muting ("Darnit! Would you stop playing the song cartman sings in South Park the Movie OVER AND OVER?") is a must for any future version. It helps kills llamas and annoying idiots really, really well.
Kick voting. This has its plusses and minuses, but the biggest plus is that any llama that chooses to hide his skulk in the Endless Vent of Doom would get voted out by an extremely irked marine team.
Also, another thought: if the game had been made exclusively: Aliens win if the CC dies, marines win if the last hive dies, then the focus/emphasis of the game would shift significantly towards the defensive, which would lead towards more turrent farms than is humanely possible. The dev team is trying to find the perfect balance between an increase in the amount of base defense aliens need early on and the amount of rushing done early on in the game as well. Its a tricky tradeoff, and my only comment is that future versions will likely see an improvement in how the victory conditions are handled to place the best emphasis on defense/offense.
On another note, there seems to be a game called "Savage" coming out soon that brags to be a real time strategy/fps type game. Basically, two tribes square off against one another, and a "commander" guy manages his trib'es resources, etc....sounds familiar? Well, we all know who came out with it first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> .
this is wrong to do such things in its current form. there's been times we've lost the CC and we still won. ive been in at least one game where we made a comeback even though we lost our starting hive (got the other 2 afterwards). if you need to do this, have some kind of timer before it happens. and its fun to see marines spawning out of vents, lol. i would take it out for 1.04.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Nov 28 2002, 01:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Nov 28 2002, 01:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hiveless aliens should only lose health when they aren't MOVING!
but we had this discussion already when 1.03 was still beta, what makes you think it will have more impact now<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. IF its' moving the marines will pick up the motion and BAM! it's dead meat.
so if it's not moving then it hurts him, and if he's moving the marines will get him, so i think it's more fair this way since he could be dead both ways but he could at least do more things.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pika-Cthulhu+Nov 28 2002, 12:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pika-Cthulhu @ Nov 28 2002, 12:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well if the Bacterium VS nanos, shouldnt marines with No CC and no If Portals, have no backup against the Bacterium. What about the lame Jetpack 'rine who gets to sit in vents and make games last long. he just wasting time, he cant build anything, a Skulk with enough resources could "hypothetically" evolve to gorge and build up a hive. Sure its hard to fight back once lost a hive, but the Marine cant do jack but hide. why punish the Aliens when they have a chance, when its the Marines (llamas come in both sizes) who waste time cos they have NO chance whatsoever. Make it work both ways, or take it away, or add a 3-5 min safe period in which the Bacterium slowly gets eaten, but no comm chair and no inf portals, Marines should start dropping like flies if Aliens do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, but it doesnt say marines are fed and maintainded by the nano. It actaully said nano's are ridgidly controlled and dangerous technology. Besides, if you can't finish off the marines that have lost the CC and Infantry Portals, then you need more practice. LOL
Actually, I don't agree with the dead hive countdown either. I have been part of combacks after losing all hives, but its fairly rare. It's fun, but rare.
The "must move" idea sounds good, but I think the team member vote combined with short timelimit as presented in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=14145' target='_blank'>this thread</a> is the best way to go. After the last hive is dead, you have 1 or 2 minutes of time and then your teammates may start voting you out.
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Nov 28 2002, 07:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Nov 28 2002, 07:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, but it doesnt say marines are fed and maintainded by the nano. It actaully said nano's are ridgidly controlled and dangerous technology. Besides, if you can't finish off the marines that have lost the CC and Infantry Portals, then you need more practice. LOL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It also says the Nanos are the only thing keeping the Bacterium from attacking the marines directly.
I don't much like the idea of a kill timer myself, it's something that could be exploited far too easily (though I wouldn't mind if it was implemented for both sides). The marines have enough resources onhand at the very start of the game to set up an okay defense for their base, the aliens don't
<!--QuoteBegin--Harry S. Truman+Nov 28 2002, 02:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Harry S. Truman @ Nov 28 2002, 02:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, but it doesnt say marines are fed and maintainded by the nano. It actaully said nano's are ridgidly controlled and dangerous technology. Besides, if you can't finish off the marines that have lost the CC and Infantry Portals, then you need more practice. LOL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its hard when your trying to kill the last marine in hiding after they killed your last hive and you constantly lose health every second, while he gets to sit in his comfy hiding spot and wait you all out.
This is the issue at hand, all you need to do now is flash rush the hives, not killing the Aliens or the defences at all, then find a spot, sit still and wait for the Aliens to drop off one by one.
I'm still trying to fathom the logic behind such a coding decision.
Comments
I just watched my friend play a game as aliens. I'm not sure the specifics, but their first and only hive got taken down. However, within a minute him and the other gorge had not one, but two! hives going up, and within several more minutes they had the 3rd. Not sure how long it takes for the killing-trigger to kill you, but in this case I believe it would have ended a great game far too early. All the marines did was rush one way while the aliens rushed another. Marines beat off the first rush, and, thanks to faster respawning, moved in-mass to the hive, knocking it out but losing their CC in the proccess. If it weren't for the fact that this was a 1.02 server, marines would have won in spite of the fact that they lost their CC and IPs...
*shrug* just goes to show, llamas may hurt people, but anti-llama measures can hurt just as much.
If that's all you did, you would still have to scour every dark corner of the map with your flashlight, which is plenty cause for concern. Fortunately, there are other options.
A single skulk hides in a vent at the end of a game. Not discounting:
a) disgruntled alien guys telling the marines precisely where he is
b) scanner sweeps finding him
c) someone going spectator to point out where he is if he's really 'ruining the game'
d) handing out jetpacks which cost a measly 9 RP
A feature is included that kills off the alien team without a hive, completely discounting any chances of comebacks once that last hive is down.
Either keep it, and introduce the SAME COUNTER for Marines once a constructed CC/Infnatry portal is gone, ie, mirrored for both teams, OR get rid of it.
Really, no thought seems to have gone into this at all.
ok heres the post that ends all..if all hives are gone.. think of it as there are no more bacteriums there.. and every bacteria is being wiped out because there is no hive to support the bacteria hence making aliens decay and do crap that makes them die QUICK ther... but i still dun really like this dying idea...
Where marines run off to the hive and kill the hive first thing off, so they win automatically!
Enjoy, people!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a good point, but the chances of them pulling it off are slim, but its still lame.
I can definitely see where you're coming from, though. Without hives, it's possible that nano/bacterial gridlock would cease, and the nanos would be able to start eating the kharra for breakfast. So, yeah, it fits in with the storyline, but in all fairness, it should work the same way for marines as it does for ailens. If you loose all your spawn portals and CCs, or whatever, then there aren't enough working factories pumping out nanos to maintina the marines' personal nano clouds, and the bacteria starts killing off the marines.
I would much rather you remove the slow death, but if you can't then you should at least balance it with a simmilar marine slow death.
1.) Aliens tried their best to rush for the CC
2.) They killed CC
3.) Marines survive because there's no countdown or lose health
4.) with or without the armory and infantry portal, they all go to the hive
5.) Marines kill hive
6.) Marines find somewhere to hide
7.) Aliens slowly dying because of the ticking countdown
8.) All aliens die, marines win.
<b>It hardly seem fair to the aliens</b>.
If it is going to happen to the aliens, do it to the marines too! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think that a five minute delay would be a lot easier to swallow. I suppose an alternative to the aliens dying would perhaps be to make it so that if the aliens go for 3 minutes or so without a hive that they become visible to all marines as per motion tracking.
Besides, unless the marines are complete doofuses (and if they took out your last hive they aren't) you'll never win anyway at this point, you are just prolonging a game that should be restarted with a clean slate. There may be a few that think the rare comeback is exciting, but it just annoys most of us, cause it doesn't happen.
End of the alien rush? Sounds like it. If the skulks hide and ambush marines on the way to your hive, they won't take it anyway. I think the early skulk rush is a worthless and wasteful tactic. It rarely succeeds and those same skulks would get more kills and do more good ambushing careless marines in the corridors. Make those hoomies slow down a bit.
Also, please note that defense chambers can negate the effects of this health loss--so if the cheapass marine with a nade launcher flies in and takes out the hive, all you have to do is sit around, or upgrade to regeneration to survive a little longer. Does anyone know if the regeneration ability completely counters this health loss?
Also, on an unrelated note, it could just be me, but it seems like when you're onos and you pick the regeneration ability, and you sit next to 1 defense chamber, you regenerate slower with the chamber's regeneration rate than if you were just sitting out there alone. This could just be me, but I happened to be somewhat tired the night I observed this (and so, rather impatient as well).
I honestly think that any competent commander with comm sweep should be able to take out and find the bugs. On some maps/places (esp vents), comm sweep sometimes doesn't work/doesn't show the blue line thing but you still see aliens. I'm the type of commander who heavily relies on comm sweep--as a result, few aliens stay alive for very long.
anyways, the slow death from a loss of all hives goes back to my entire theory that Natural Selection will come into conflict with what's best for the public as a whole, and what's best for clannies as a whole. The entire slow death move was done to eliminate llamas--but by doing so, it really limits the possibilities of alien comebacks from a very clever, quick marine rush. My only comments would be that it would be nice if such "llama protection" tactics were made <i>optional</i> instead of mandatory--that way, serious play wouldn't be hindered by a procedure that was reserved for llamas--unless the dev team really thinks this adds to the integral dynamic of the game (while coincidentally killing llamas).
I think that voice comm muting ("Darnit! Would you stop playing the song cartman sings in South Park the Movie OVER AND OVER?") is a must for any future version. It helps kills llamas and annoying idiots really, really well.
Kick voting. This has its plusses and minuses, but the biggest plus is that any llama that chooses to hide his skulk in the Endless Vent of Doom would get voted out by an extremely irked marine team.
Also, another thought: if the game had been made exclusively: Aliens win if the CC dies, marines win if the last hive dies, then the focus/emphasis of the game would shift significantly towards the defensive, which would lead towards more turrent farms than is humanely possible. The dev team is trying to find the perfect balance between an increase in the amount of base defense aliens need early on and the amount of rushing done early on in the game as well. Its a tricky tradeoff, and my only comment is that future versions will likely see an improvement in how the victory conditions are handled to place the best emphasis on defense/offense.
On another note, there seems to be a game called "Savage" coming out soon that brags to be a real time strategy/fps type game. Basically, two tribes square off against one another, and a "commander" guy manages his trib'es resources, etc....sounds familiar? Well, we all know who came out with it first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> .
but we had this discussion already when 1.03 was still beta, what makes you think it will have more impact now
but we had this discussion already when 1.03 was still beta, what makes you think it will have more impact now<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. IF its' moving the marines will pick up the motion and BAM! it's dead meat.
so if it's not moving then it hurts him, and if he's moving the marines will get him, so i think it's more fair this way since he could be dead both ways but he could at least do more things.
Yeah, but it doesnt say marines are fed and maintainded by the nano. It actaully said nano's are ridgidly controlled and dangerous technology. Besides, if you can't finish off the marines that have lost the CC and Infantry Portals, then you need more practice. LOL
Actually, I don't agree with the dead hive countdown either. I have been part of combacks after losing all hives, but its fairly rare. It's fun, but rare.
It also says the Nanos are the only thing keeping the Bacterium from attacking the marines directly.
I don't much like the idea of a kill timer myself, it's something that could be exploited far too easily (though I wouldn't mind if it was implemented for both sides). The marines have enough resources onhand at the very start of the game to set up an okay defense for their base, the aliens don't
Its hard when your trying to kill the last marine in hiding after they killed your last hive and you constantly lose health every second, while he gets to sit in his comfy hiding spot and wait you all out.
I'm still trying to fathom the logic behind such a coding decision.