Something In The Patch
Petru
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7259Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7259Members
<div class="IPBDescription">the aliens lose health thing</div> - Aliens now lose health when they no longer have any active or growing hives (damages every 2 seconds, all players hear countdown, ignores armor). This is done to speed up the end game and prevent llamas from hiding in vents to prolong game.
So, in essence, code has been introduced to:
a) kill off aliens that can evolve to Gorg, patiently gather resources, rebuild a hive respawning his/her team and winning the game
b) NOT kill off Marines, who can sit in the centre of a long vent doing absolutely NOTHING to bring back his team
This not make sense to anyone else?
So, in essence, code has been introduced to:
a) kill off aliens that can evolve to Gorg, patiently gather resources, rebuild a hive respawning his/her team and winning the game
b) NOT kill off Marines, who can sit in the centre of a long vent doing absolutely NOTHING to bring back his team
This not make sense to anyone else?
Comments
For he marine part no-comment
While the motive might have been good , I think it's carried out all wrong.
While it's hard comming back after losing all your hives it's not impossible and you can have fun playing whilst you try to do it.
I just died in a game .. we where a whole team with nearly enough resources to build a new hive , and it was early in the game so we could have gotten back and kicked **obscenity** - someone "just" forgot to fortify the hives and so they were taken swiftly.
One by one each teammember dies .. to a counter ?!
No no no ! .. Aliens are meant to die on the end of a gun , by the hand of a marine - Not from a unreal counter of death.
Ofcourse the game should not be prolonged by some lone lamer sitting in a vent .. but there are better ways to get that without ruining the fun of wiping out the remaining aliens or as an alien trying to make a comeback with all the pressure on you.
I suggest that the counter is removed and instead replaced by something that makes more sense :
Imagine that the last hive is taken down.
The bacterium follows soon after .. and soon (after maybe 30 - 60 seconds) it is completely dead (maybe the texture could even be replaced?) .. thus the nano-gridlock is broken - The commandor now have complete control over the base and can see all areas.
With the nano-gridlock broken the existing base defense and warning systems come back online ( audiofiles would be nice "Systems back on-line" .. "Breach in sectors 5,9 and 12" .. "Alien lifeform detected" )
A little while later ( maybe 60 - 90 seconds ) the base systems have all rebooted, restructed and repaired the damage done to the systems and the base monitoring systems will now pinpoint and report the location of alien lifeforms. This causes the alien(s) to show up on the commanders map and he can then set an attack waypoint for the marines to follow , thus drawing in the marines on the remaining alien(s)
If the alien(s) manage somehow to survive this , he should know that his luck is about to run out .. because it's only a matter of time before the base network have negotiated and established protocols with the marine equipment allowing turrets (and other structures) to be built anywhere without considering if it's within range of it's control structure. Turrets can thus be places anywhere .. and because they now link to the basesystems they get their sensory data from the basessytems , allow normal turrets to see down a very long corridor and allowing seigeturrets to home in on ALL alien in nature , not just structures.
If any alien can stay alive , faced with an entire team of marines hunting him and deadly turrets firing at him and an array of seigeturrets shooting through walls to get him .. and no where to hide - then hey .. he DESERVES to ! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now that would be a far better way to ensure that no lamer alien hide and prolong the game , but rather that they are hunted down and slaughtered *heheheeee*
While the motive might have been good , I think it's carried out all wrong.
While it's hard comming back after losing all your hives it's not impossible and you can have fun playing whilst you try to do it.
I just died in a game .. we where a whole team with nearly enough resources to build a new hive , and it was early in the game so we could have gotten back and kicked **obscenity** - someone "just" forgot to fortify the hives and so they were taken swiftly.
One by one each teammember dies .. to a counter ?!
No no no ! .. Aliens are meant to die on the end of a gun , by the hand of a marine - Not from a unreal counter of death.
Ofcourse the game should not be prolonged by some lone lamer sitting in a vent .. but there are better ways to get that without ruining the fun of wiping out the remaining aliens or as an alien trying to make a comeback with all the pressure on you.
I suggest that the counter is removed and instead replaced by something that makes more sense :
Imagine that the last hive is taken down.
The bacterium follows soon after .. and soon (after maybe 30 - 60 seconds) it is completely dead (maybe the texture could even be replaced?) .. thus the nano-gridlock is broken - The commandor now have complete control over the base and can see all areas.
With the nano-gridlock broken the existing base defense and warning systems come back online ( audiofiles would be nice "Systems back on-line" .. "Breach in sectors 5,9 and 12" .. "Alien lifeform detected" )
A little while later ( maybe 60 - 90 seconds ) the base systems have all rebooted, restructed and repaired the damage done to the systems and the base monitoring systems will now pinpoint and report the location of alien lifeforms. This causes the alien(s) to show up on the commanders map and he can then set an attack waypoint for the marines to follow , thus drawing in the marines on the remaining alien(s)
If the alien(s) manage somehow to survive this , he should know that his luck is about to run out .. because it's only a matter of time before the base network have negotiated and established protocols with the marine equipment allowing turrets (and other structures) to be built anywhere without considering if it's within range of it's control structure. Turrets can thus be places anywhere .. and because they now link to the basesystems they get their sensory data from the basessytems , allow normal turrets to see down a very long corridor and allowing seigeturrets to home in on ALL alien in nature , not just structures.
If any alien can stay alive , faced with an entire team of marines hunting him and deadly turrets firing at him and an array of seigeturrets shooting through walls to get him .. and no where to hide - then hey .. he DESERVES to ! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now that would be a far better way to ensure that no lamer alien hide and prolong the game , but rather that they are hunted down and slaughtered *heheheeee*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perfect, what he said ^^^.
Perhaps the same could be done for marines. Tho the story line would be a little out of wack but I'm sure you could say that once the Marines landed on a base, the remaining functional networks of the base reestablished protocols with the new CC, and once the CC's are all dead, the networks that connected to the CC needs some kind of a reboot (ala new CC) to fight agains the Kahraa bacteria, and it takes maybe 30-60 seconds for the bacteria to break nano gridlock and kill off marine nanites. Some visual effects would be cool... i.e. all the parts of the base gets covered up by stuff etc etc.
I dont know, I am just farting with my brain here.
SUSPECT <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Where marines run off to the hive and kill the hive first thing off, so they win automatically!
Enjoy, people!
(yes i am not happy with it.)
And the team balance thing became more ridiculous... 5 or more players = auto win? sigh....
THere had to be a better way to fix these problems. I'm waiting patiently for v1.04....
But what Ceejay is quite interesting, I could see some modified version of this working quite well <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm not a fan of the slow kill also, but, it ends games and prevents lamers, so I agree with it.
Perhasp if the Aliens have no hives, and have not attempted to build one for 5 minutes or more, then have it start to take health. NOT right off the bat.
I have seen a game where a team came back from 0 hives to 2 hives and won against the marines. About 2 minutes into the game a group of Marines rushed from their base, to the Generator room, to the vent by the Great Viaduct, crawled into the vent, and killed the hive from behind. We tried skulk rushing them, but couldn't get to them in time. (This is another thing I dislike, but thats for another thread.)
If the Marines have full upgrades, have reinforced 2 of the 3 Hives, AND have most it not all the Nodes there is NO CHANCE the Alien team can recover.
Even if a gorge (who had been fortunate enough to avoid being found AND has access to an unguarded Hive) can build a hive how would you take any territory (especially a reinforced hive) with only Skulks/Lerks and 1 upgrade ability. They'd be nothing more then fodder for HA Marines.
If the Marines are fully upgraded and the last alien is a gorge and he somehow manages to build a hive, the aliens are doing nothing but delaying the inevitable.
For this reason, the Kill Ticker is good.
However, like many people here have pointed out, there are scenarios where the Aliens could make a comeback but because of the ticker they cannot. That should be changed.
i honestly have not seen anyone who has gotten into a good enough position to delay the end of the game by more than 1 - 2 mins. i reckon its kinda cool to watch the last remaining skulk/lerk run around trying to stay alive and generally making a nuisance of himself by picking off lonely marines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
On the other hand, revealing all enemy units to commanders/hivesight would work out similarly and be more fun.
Note, however, that if a hive is under construction, the aliens will <b>not</b> be taking damage. So if they have even one Gorge alive with enough resources, they could in all likelihood whip out a fresh hive before the game ends. And if they don't have a Gorge with any resources, well, they would've been meat, anyways.
The aliens already had to worry about defending themselves from a rush.
Right now, it takes at LEAST five minutes or so to gather enough res for a second hive. At an absolute <b>minimum</b> in fact.
Compare that to 30 for a new CC, or 30 or so for a new Portal. Marines start with a hundred for a reason, to build that initial defense.
Aliens start with 10 each, and have to gather by hand from there. They need to earn '30' resources, assuming they turn to Gorge as soon as they hit 13 so they gather at triple-speed. And that's if they don't build ANY defenses, at all, and nobody else goes Gorge to mess up the math for that, then it just takes longer.
The complaint is that killing that first hive by sheer luck is a GUARANTEED victory, while taking down a comperable amount of Marine gear can be recovered from.
The complaint in question could be fixed quite easilly, by making the 'timer' only take effect if the Aliens have, at any time, built a second hive. It's a specific instance that handling it would end the problems entirely, as the only 'complaint' I've seen, and been victim to once myself already.
First hive is attacked, so we pull the gorge to another hive and have him start building there, but before the second hive can be triggered the first hive dies... and so do all of us, even if there's six of us in perfectly good shape, THAT is the problem.
An entire team of perfectly healthy aliens dying because the hive died is the problem. If it was only the Gorge left, and he was waddling around by himself, I can see taking it out. When over half the team is still alive? No, there's another failsafe to put in.
If over half the team is alive, game goes on.
If no second hive has ever been started, game goes on.
Those two safeguards would solve about... 99.9% of the complaints I can see with this auto-kill, as if over half your team is dead, and not coming back, but you've gotten another hive up at some point... they've got you pinned dead to rights, they earned the kill.
If no second hive has ever been started, game goes on.
Those two safeguards would solve about... 99.9% of the complaints I can see with this auto-kill, as if over half your team is dead, and not coming back, but you've gotten another hive up at some point... they've got you pinned dead to rights, they earned the kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i reckon that seems like a good idea
I think it wouldn't be much of a problem without it. I know ppl have complained about games lasting an extra half-hour with vent-aliens, but I have 2 counterarguments for that:
1. In those cases, the prolonging was not the aliens' fault, but the marines'. A wiser commander would have scattered observatories and found all the aliens within a minute.
2. In larger games, the vent-hiding scenario no longer occurs in the first place if 5 or more aliens don't support it. They can hit f4 and the game will end instantly.
The marines have had to deal with such issues as being helpless without a cc ever since day 1, aliens on the other hand, have been able to rush ever since 1.00 without any actual danger if they have a gorge running around and hiding if their hive ever got killed. Can a lone marine build a command center if the commander doesnt drop it? Can a gorge do it? Yes he can. Can he still do it? Yes he can if he has been trying to do it. If he has enough rps for a hive and he can make it, he can actually build a new hive and give the aliens another chance, something that marines dont have.
This now makes the aliens think twice before rushing the marine base and all of them getting killed. If all the marine team dies at the frst 10 mins of the game, dont all smart aliens rush their base and kill it because theres no one defending it? What about aliens? Should they not have the chance to lose due to their reckless tactics?
If the marines are organized enough to take a hive, and the aliens are too busy all running around trying to rush the marines the marines have the right to win. In fact, i have won many games because the aliens keep trying to rush a marine base and since theire aliens and marine rushing is "lame" they dont worry about even leaving 1 skulk to defend it. No offense chambers either. Many times its just a squad of marines against a helpless hive.
If you dont want to die from not having a hive then PROTECT IT and stop whining. Marines have to protect their base, so should you.
Also, if anyone takes the time to read the story for NS, you would see that aliens are entirely dependent on the hive, the hivemind tells them about attackers, lets them see where their teammates are and lets them create buildings. If the hive dies, the aliens become vegetables and cant function. But would you rather be paralized until a marine finds you and kills you or just lose health until you die?
As for rezik's post:
1) Observatories are useful, but they dont show you where your enemies are unless they move. Hence, thats why its called motion tracking.
2) Many people are already against the 5 people difference = lose system, also, if you couldnt defend your base properly against a marine rush, what makes you think your teammates might try to end the game using the teamwork you couldnt pull off ingame?
No offense, but you are uninformed about this. Haven't you ever noticed motion tracking dots on chambers in certain situations?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Many people are already against the 5 people difference = lose system<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kind of irrelevant -- it's in the game now, whether ppl like it or not. Only if the 5-loss system gets removed at some point in the future will my point will no longer stand.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->also, if you couldnt defend your base properly against a marine rush, what makes you think your teammates might try to end the game using the teamwork you couldnt pull off ingame?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple -- individual selfishness is a big factor. The dead aliens who aren't spawning will often get bored and want to start playing again.
It's also much less of a requirement...you only need 5 cooperative players to pull it off every time.
I think it would indeed be a lot better if the health loss began after a countdown of five minutes. It really feels like an artificial solution to a problem that sometimes occurs because of lamers. There simply has to be a more elegant solution that doesn't step on gameplay concerns.
And I believe I heard it mentioned that this feature is not enabled in tourny mode. So perhaps I'll go out and find some tourny-only servers.
Ok today i just realized that 1.03 was released and my complaint was in vain it was terribly stupid im very sorry and forgive me for posting something so stupid
First off, both the 5 person difference = lose and the loss of all hives = lose changes were both introduced to solve some very real problems with the game. Problems I have experienced myself. I in no way enjoy sitting around dead, waiting for that last skulk to get himself killed so a new match can start. Nor do I like playing a game where my "team" is outnumbered 2 to 7. Both those cases have NEVER resulted in fun. If I had had a reset game button, I would have pressed it every time these situations came up, even after knowing the results.
Now we've had two recent changes to introduce this automatic reset button.
Before anyone else shows up on this thread to complain, please, please, PLEASE. Please try the new system out for a while. If you personally get cheated out of a good time because of the system, by all means, post your concerns about it.
But if you are just gonna post about it because everyone knows worrying and complaining are lots of fun, don't. You'll make the forum a better place for it.
Thank you for your time.
The Aliens may be more mobile and harder to kill, but so what?
The marines arent gonna have a countdown without any CC and or Ininary Portals?
It should not be about speeding up the end of the game... It is possible to make comeback..., If an alien manages to get ahive back and save his team so be it, the marines should have been watching them. It's perfectlly fair.
1.03 is sounding pretty bad to me
These issues are not being introduced because the development team is feeling spiteful. They are being introduced to deal with real llama problems that keep coming up.
Personally, I think that in most cases the 'hiding in vents' bit will be nullified by the 5 person excess team rule that has been put in. But it is certainly worth playing with right now, and seeing how things will be effected. I'd rather play a new game than sit around in a hopless game that we all refuse to lose.
~Rune Grey
Perpetual Thorn of Logic and Reason
Not everyone here is complaining...the detrimental effects are pretty obvious to most, I think.
I was just wondering if anyone could explain why the change is beneficial. I don't see any problem that wouldn't already be fixed for the most part...
The two changes might seem redundant in some cases, but they were put in with public servers in mind.
Aye, that's true.
There's still the find-them-in-a-minute-with-observatories solution though. (not to be confused with motion tracking or scanner sweeps plz)
Picture this, if you will. The game starts, one marine hops in the CC to find the hive by sound, after finding it he hops out and all the marines set off toward the hive. The aliens are already heading for the marine spawn, except maybe a few who are waiting to evolve to gorge. The aliens arrive at the marine spawn, find it empty, and begin munching on the CC. The marines meanwhile make their way to the only alien hive. None of the skulks die because the marines aren't defending, so no one is spawning at the hive so it is undefended except maybe a gorge. The marines, already having lost, with no CC have little chance of winning right? except they unload their collective LMGs at the hive and destroy it. Suddenly neither team has a base and the marines, with no leader and little ammo, should still be losing, except for the timer which kills off all the aliens before they can kill off the marines, and the aliens can't build another hive because they don't have anywhere near enough resources that early on.
I don't play with clans or anything, but I've only seen an alien rush 'win' 2 or 3 times - where aliens rush and kill the CC and win in under 5 minutes, Starting with LMGs and 100 res the marines can stop alien rushes easily enough, but now if the marines rush it's instant death for the aliens.