What I think he's getting at is nano manipulation of very low level structures (manipulating atomic nuclei for example) is unfeasible. However, more basic changes like overall shapes are much more reasonable. So, while in the field, you can get partial restructuring, but a more robust way would be rebuild from scratch.
Also, this means you can't change the chemical composition of your weaponry. So, structural changes like in the armor are OK, but remaking your weapon into a depleted uranium ammunition gun, for example, isn't. Thus, weapons need to be swapped out somewhere that has more power. Armory works.
<!--quoteo(post=1691926:date=Oct 31 2008, 11:18 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Oct 31 2008, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1691926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the nanosteel particles are arranged in ovals, rectangles, squares and triangles? This isn't any simpler (it would in fact be much harder, because the "gunpowder" might as well be some kind of a futuristic gas producing aqueous solution) than altering the chemical structure of gunpowder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I am saying alter the structure of their structural shape, to a stronger shape. But not have the Nanobots use air to make dura-steel or something like that.
You'd be surprised on how much stronger a triangle is than a circle. But really my point was how is a Nanobot going to make some complex super body armor out of thin air out in the field?
Yes I've seen what they are acclaimed to be able to do. But if they were using the Marine's armor as materials to recombine the elements to make the new armor that process would take a while so, there'd be a gap of time to were a Marine would be naked basically defense wise.
I like the idea a lot, but from the point of view of a programmer, I'll tell you that for an effect which takes potentially weeks to fully program and perhaps a few more days for the artistry and it has little or no impact on actual gameplay, I'm giving it a big thumbs down. I know it would be 'cool' and all, but Unknown Worlds is working on enough 'cool' features which actually do count towards gameplay to have to worry about this.
Let me put it to you guys this way. Would you rather have visual confirmation of upgrades at the expense of Natural Selection 2 coming out 3 months later than anticipated, or can you do without? I know my answer.
<!--quoteo(post=1693344:date=Nov 13 2008, 01:47 PM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hawkeye @ Nov 13 2008, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea a lot, but from the point of view of a programmer, I'll tell you that for an effect which takes potentially weeks to fully program and perhaps a few more days for the artistry and it has little or no impact on actual gameplay, I'm giving it a big thumbs down. I know it would be 'cool' and all, but Unknown Worlds is working on enough 'cool' features which actually do count towards gameplay to have to worry about this.
Let me put it to you guys this way. Would you rather have visual confirmation of upgrades at the expense of Natural Selection 2 coming out 3 months later than anticipated, or can you do without? I know my answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's cool. I was thinking it would be an interesting mechanic, and you can just switch out textures/slight model additions.
Also, while it may not be a huge balancing factor, it's a helpful clue that people can use to realize what's going on. This allows them to realize what mistakes they may have made and so they can improve. Similar to how you can see what items were bought on other heroes in DotA.
But no, I won't be heartbroken if they cut this out. =]
<!--quoteo(post=1693383:date=Nov 13 2008, 02:19 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Nov 13 2008, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's cool. I was thinking it would be an interesting mechanic, and you can just switch out textures/slight model additions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the texture changes are doable, and in fact, it'd be simple enough to do what you're asking regarding alien upgrades (even seems like it really should be the case already). However model changes would take a bit more work, not for a programmer but for an artist. I vouche for the idea of texture changes.
And if there is bump mapping for the new engine, it would be easy enough to add like armor 'pockets' to marine armor to make it 'look' bulkier even if the model technically didn't change. I'd vouche for that too (look hellacool too. Think about the master chief in halo.. a lot of the details on the model are done by bump mapping).
Model changes I'd say are a step too far if only for the fact that it'd take a bit longer to do.
Hey you developers!? You reading this!? Bump mapping = cool!
I think taking the original skulk model and slightly making the legs bulkier wouldnt be too hard for celerity, or carapace adding bulk on it's back with a scale texture.
Since I'm a noob at modeling, how do they add the jetpack on the Marines in NS1? I was imagining a similar system if there was a dire need to add bulk to the model.
<!--quoteo(post=1693468:date=Nov 14 2008, 12:18 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ Nov 14 2008, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since I'm a noob at modeling, how do they add the jetpack on the Marines in NS1? I was imagining a similar system if there was a dire need to add bulk to the model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The jet pack (I'd imagine) is done in a similar fashion as weapons are done, in that the model has movements which take into account holding a weapon of some kind. The marine model doesn't actually hold the gun as part of the model but is added later (because it has to be dynamic and changeable according to the current weapon). Particular weapons such as pistols have to be painstakingly remodeled in the marine model to 'use' it in a way other than they'd use a rifle.
I think that jet packs are simply like weapons in that they are dynamically added, though I think the marine model has a pose for 'flying' with a jetpack.
Bulking the model would mean switching out the model entirely, which means you'd replace it with a new model which looks similar to the old. It would have to have all the weapon poses and otherwise as the original. I suppose you *could* do it by adding a inlay model so that the parts which stick out are the 'bulkiness' of the armor upgrades, but that's got to be expensive to do. It's bad enough rendering all models for all players, but imagine rendering two models for every human player, one being the original and the other being the inlay model which makes his armor look bigger.
yeah, i like the bump mapping idea better, and simply have it change color, or reflectivity as it improves.
everything armor wise could be explained using nanites etc... field upgrades COULD be a nice addon, (observatory would become INFINITELY more valuable then) but otherwise, the armory is the obvious answer for all other upgrade needs. get the ammo there, armor CODE. (would also make sense why you wouldn't get full armor back from it) and we can automatically assume that welders are so associated with the com already, that they get everything automatically...
guns? well, you wouldn't know what they were firing at you until you get hit by it anyways...(unless they sparked bigger at impact etc...)
as for aliens, yeah, THAT would be harder. generally, half of the fun of it IS finding out what they have... it SHOULD be a secret, until you find the chambers... carapace is the only exception, but just making them slightly darker would do the trick on that... i DO like the idea of a "respawn room" though, where you would be "cloned" or whatever to be sent into battle, and then use the IP entrance there to actually "spawn". this could allow a nice buildup for a nice rally if base is being overrun, rather then simply feeding. but, I also realize that this will lead to other balance issues as well. as well as the crowd who will simply stay in the respawn room, and NEVER come out.
Having more player models is also a technical issue as well, since every model needs to be precached and each additional model requires more resources from the user. So having 10 different skulks for each upgrade would severely hamper performance.
On the other hand, I think creating smaller models (like pads for a marine) that can be attached to a marine for example to represent upgrades could work.
<!--quoteo(post=1693745:date=Nov 18 2008, 08:09 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 18 2008, 08:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having more player models is also a technical issue as well, since every model needs to be precached and each additional model requires more resources from the user. So having 10 different skulks for each upgrade would severely hamper performance.
On the other hand, I think creating smaller models (like pads for a marine) that can be attached to a marine for example to represent upgrades could work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as far as i know its no defference between having 10 skluks with 150polys ech and 10 looking different from ech other with the same polycount each the only thing from a model that takes resources are the polycounts and a little bit the texture layed over them so at least of there are not giant differences in texture size or polycount at least every skulk and marine and onos and so on can look different without a real problem of resource usage then before
well if u meant this seriusly Bump Mapping is letting you got visiual elevation on a plain surface via black and white image or normal maps with colored images
<!--quoteo(post=1693754:date=Nov 18 2008, 05:29 PM:name=Nasdero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Nasdero @ Nov 18 2008, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as far as i know its no defference between having 10 skluks with 150polys ech and 10 looking different from ech other with the same polycount each the only thing from a model that takes resources are the polycounts and a little bit the texture layed over them so at least of there are not giant differences in texture size or polycount at least every skulk and marine and onos and so on can look different without a real problem of resource usage then before<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Punctuation is becoming a lost art, so is grammar.
For each unique model in the world, it needs to be stored in memory. Now, this means two things: 1) You can replace one model with another without a major performance hit with some optimization. You could change the appearances of all the marines without any problems to my knowledge. However, if each marine had an individual model, there are issues and that brings us to note 2. 2) NS2 is being designed as a title that most computers can play. That's the only way to be successful on the PC, since both Blizzard and Valve have their games to be scalable. The less individual models that need to be stored in memory at any given time, the better the game will run. Player models are very detailed things now. Hell, the guns in UT3 have more polygons than entire maps in the previous installment. Each additional map is very costly in resources.
I personally have no idea what the affects of having different skins per model are, but I guess that's a valid avenue of having customization.
<!--quoteo(post=1693713:date=Nov 18 2008, 01:24 PM:name=Grizzlywolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grizzlywolf @ Nov 18 2008, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->guns? well, you wouldn't know what they were firing at you until you get hit by it anyways...(unless they sparked bigger at impact etc...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking minor adjustments. Color scheme for example. The MASC would be ideal for this since the exposed parts could be a different color (i.e. the cooling lines or the glowing energy), assuming weapon upgrades upgrade turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1693713:date=Nov 18 2008, 01:24 PM:name=Grizzlywolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grizzlywolf @ Nov 18 2008, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i DO like the idea of a "respawn room" though, where you would be "cloned" or whatever to be sent into battle, and then use the IP entrance there to actually "spawn". this could allow a nice buildup for a nice rally if base is being overrun, rather then simply feeding. but, I also realize that this will lead to other balance issues as well. as well as the crowd who will simply stay in the respawn room, and NEVER come out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not quite as much of a fan, except for the mention it could allow wave and trickle respawn options. I would rather you upgrade in a quick menu that you bring up, similar to how BF and Dystopia and other such games allow you to switch out in the field or while dead, applied during next spawn. I don't think we need a room just for that, merely a way to delay your spawn if you're still customizing.
The respawn room would be interesting if you had the spawning system integrated. You would trickle spawn into the room, and then run into a teleporter to get back into the map. However, each IP takes a little time to recharge, but less than the trickle spawn. So, this prevents suddenly 10 Marines pop out of the IP, but still allows pure trickle spawning, and more IPs mean more players respawning faster.
A weird mechanic would be to make the trickle spawn and the IPs independent, so more IPs simply means a larger wave appears if needed, but a separate upgrade/cost to increase trickle respawn rate. Crazy idea, just throwing it out there. I would personally rather spawn rate be dependent on # of IPs in play.
But yes, customation is what alot of people love, just the ability to know you're different, you're unique, so they can remember your model and say "Oh sh**..." That's also why H3 added all those different armors, more customization, more individuallity, something only a idiot wouldn't want. That's why I think some type of customization NEEDS to be added.
"Punctuation is becoming a lost art, so is grammar."
sorry but english is a foreign language for me and i dont want to look every single word up before typing
back to topic, yes custom content would really rock but just if there is enough that you dont see every second marine with a ciguar in his mouth cuz there is just with or without smoking ^^ so it really needs to be enough that it wont happen to often that players look the same even customized
Perhaps the arms lab could show what upgrades marines have rather than specific gear or visual differences in weaponry/armour. It would be easier to design and has a unique impact on gameplay too.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As it is, you're spraying with a Lv0 LMG and suddenly it becomes a Lv1 LMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nanites.
At any rate since history is doomed to be repeated by the stupid, why is there this opposition to seeing what upgrades the enemy has? If you can't see a skulk has carapace, are you only going to shoot him 6 times and stop and then go "OH NO HE HAD CARAPACE WHY DID I STOP SHOOTING!!!"? No. And then from that moment on, you know they have a D-chamber so they'll all have carapace or regen.
Same thing goes with marine upgrades. It's pretty obvious when they have armor upgrades and they can't really LOSE them...
I didnt wrote that I dislike the idea of graphical differences based on upgrades. I support it. But you shouldnt make the mistake to dont dispense it until [effective] respawn. That's to troublesome.
Well there is a small pro to not showing it which is that you will have to actually engage the enemy and report what happened to your team for everyone to find out. This is neat if it has an actual effect on how you respond to aggression (ie armor 1 in the original ns). However who cares... new textures are neat.
Comments
Also, this means you can't change the chemical composition of your weaponry. So, structural changes like in the armor are OK, but remaking your weapon into a depleted uranium ammunition gun, for example, isn't. Thus, weapons need to be swapped out somewhere that has more power. Armory works.
No I am saying alter the structure of their structural shape, to a stronger shape. But not have the Nanobots use air to make dura-steel or something like that.
Let me put it to you guys this way. Would you rather have visual confirmation of upgrades at the expense of Natural Selection 2 coming out 3 months later than anticipated, or can you do without? I know my answer.
Let me put it to you guys this way. Would you rather have visual confirmation of upgrades at the expense of Natural Selection 2 coming out 3 months later than anticipated, or can you do without? I know my answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's cool. I was thinking it would be an interesting mechanic, and you can just switch out textures/slight model additions.
Also, while it may not be a huge balancing factor, it's a helpful clue that people can use to realize what's going on. This allows them to realize what mistakes they may have made and so they can improve. Similar to how you can see what items were bought on other heroes in DotA.
But no, I won't be heartbroken if they cut this out. =]
Well, the texture changes are doable, and in fact, it'd be simple enough to do what you're asking regarding alien upgrades (even seems like it really should be the case already). However model changes would take a bit more work, not for a programmer but for an artist. I vouche for the idea of texture changes.
And if there is bump mapping for the new engine, it would be easy enough to add like armor 'pockets' to marine armor to make it 'look' bulkier even if the model technically didn't change. I'd vouche for that too (look hellacool too. Think about the master chief in halo.. a lot of the details on the model are done by bump mapping).
Model changes I'd say are a step too far if only for the fact that it'd take a bit longer to do.
Hey you developers!? You reading this!? Bump mapping = cool!
The jet pack (I'd imagine) is done in a similar fashion as weapons are done, in that the model has movements which take into account holding a weapon of some kind. The marine model doesn't actually hold the gun as part of the model but is added later (because it has to be dynamic and changeable according to the current weapon). Particular weapons such as pistols have to be painstakingly remodeled in the marine model to 'use' it in a way other than they'd use a rifle.
I think that jet packs are simply like weapons in that they are dynamically added, though I think the marine model has a pose for 'flying' with a jetpack.
Bulking the model would mean switching out the model entirely, which means you'd replace it with a new model which looks similar to the old. It would have to have all the weapon poses and otherwise as the original. I suppose you *could* do it by adding a inlay model so that the parts which stick out are the 'bulkiness' of the armor upgrades, but that's got to be expensive to do. It's bad enough rendering all models for all players, but imagine rendering two models for every human player, one being the original and the other being the inlay model which makes his armor look bigger.
*shakes head violently*
Bump mapping = good
everything armor wise could be explained using nanites etc...
field upgrades COULD be a nice addon, (observatory would become INFINITELY more valuable then)
but otherwise, the armory is the obvious answer for all other upgrade needs.
get the ammo there, armor CODE. (would also make sense why you wouldn't get full armor back from it)
and we can automatically assume that welders are so associated with the com already, that they get everything automatically...
guns? well, you wouldn't know what they were firing at you until you get hit by it anyways...(unless they sparked bigger at impact etc...)
as for aliens, yeah, THAT would be harder.
generally, half of the fun of it IS finding out what they have...
it SHOULD be a secret, until you find the chambers...
carapace is the only exception, but just making them slightly darker would do the trick on that...
i DO like the idea of a "respawn room" though, where you would be "cloned" or whatever to be sent into battle, and then use the IP entrance there to actually "spawn".
this could allow a nice buildup for a nice rally if base is being overrun, rather then simply feeding.
but, I also realize that this will lead to other balance issues as well.
as well as the crowd who will simply stay in the respawn room, and NEVER come out.
On the other hand, I think creating smaller models (like pads for a marine) that can be attached to a marine for example to represent upgrades could work.
On the other hand, I think creating smaller models (like pads for a marine) that can be attached to a marine for example to represent upgrades could work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as far as i know its no defference between having 10 skluks with 150polys ech and 10 looking different from ech other with the same polycount each the only thing from a model that takes resources are the polycounts and a little bit the texture layed over them so at least of there are not giant differences in texture size or polycount at least every skulk and marine and onos and so on can look different without a real problem of resource usage then before
Punctuation is becoming a lost art, so is grammar.
For each unique model in the world, it needs to be stored in memory. Now, this means two things:
1) You can replace one model with another without a major performance hit with some optimization. You could change the appearances of all the marines without any problems to my knowledge. However, if each marine had an individual model, there are issues and that brings us to note 2.
2) NS2 is being designed as a title that most computers can play. That's the only way to be successful on the PC, since both Blizzard and Valve have their games to be scalable. The less individual models that need to be stored in memory at any given time, the better the game will run. Player models are very detailed things now. Hell, the guns in UT3 have more polygons than entire maps in the previous installment. Each additional map is very costly in resources.
I personally have no idea what the affects of having different skins per model are, but I guess that's a valid avenue of having customization.
I was thinking minor adjustments. Color scheme for example. The MASC would be ideal for this since the exposed parts could be a different color (i.e. the cooling lines or the glowing energy), assuming weapon upgrades upgrade turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1693713:date=Nov 18 2008, 01:24 PM:name=Grizzlywolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grizzlywolf @ Nov 18 2008, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i DO like the idea of a "respawn room" though, where you would be "cloned" or whatever to be sent into battle, and then use the IP entrance there to actually "spawn".
this could allow a nice buildup for a nice rally if base is being overrun, rather then simply feeding.
but, I also realize that this will lead to other balance issues as well.
as well as the crowd who will simply stay in the respawn room, and NEVER come out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not quite as much of a fan, except for the mention it could allow wave and trickle respawn options. I would rather you upgrade in a quick menu that you bring up, similar to how BF and Dystopia and other such games allow you to switch out in the field or while dead, applied during next spawn. I don't think we need a room just for that, merely a way to delay your spawn if you're still customizing.
The respawn room would be interesting if you had the spawning system integrated. You would trickle spawn into the room, and then run into a teleporter to get back into the map. However, each IP takes a little time to recharge, but less than the trickle spawn. So, this prevents suddenly 10 Marines pop out of the IP, but still allows pure trickle spawning, and more IPs mean more players respawning faster.
A weird mechanic would be to make the trickle spawn and the IPs independent, so more IPs simply means a larger wave appears if needed, but a separate upgrade/cost to increase trickle respawn rate. Crazy idea, just throwing it out there. I would personally rather spawn rate be dependent on # of IPs in play.
But yes, customation is what alot of people love, just the ability to know you're different, you're unique, so they can remember your model and say "Oh sh**..." That's also why H3 added all those different armors, more customization, more individuallity, something only a idiot wouldn't want. That's why I think some type of customization NEEDS to be added.
sorry but english is a foreign language for me and i dont want to look every single word up before typing
back to topic, yes custom content would really rock but just if there is enough that you dont see every second marine with a ciguar in his mouth cuz there is just with or without smoking ^^ so it really needs to be enough that it wont happen to often that players look the same even customized
Also:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As it is, you're spraying with a Lv0 LMG and suddenly it becomes a Lv1 LMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nanites.
Firmware updates are cool too :>
At any rate since history is doomed to be repeated by the stupid, why is there this opposition to seeing what upgrades the enemy has? If you can't see a skulk has carapace, are you only going to shoot him 6 times and stop and then go "OH NO HE HAD CARAPACE WHY DID I STOP SHOOTING!!!"? No. And then from that moment on, you know they have a D-chamber so they'll all have carapace or regen.
Same thing goes with marine upgrades. It's pretty obvious when they have armor upgrades and they can't really LOSE them...