Equal Spawn Chance
t0x1kw4st3
Join Date: 2008-04-27 Member: 64167Members
Join Date: 2008-04-27 Member: 64167Members
<div class="IPBDescription">(Random Marine Spawns)</div>So, normally there are 4 fundamental rooms in traditional NS Maps: 3 for hives, 1 for marine start (4 total).
I'm suggesting that Marine Start be random, just like the first Alien Hive. This will make it more balanced in terms of starting knowledge. Aliens won't know where Marine Start is, severely dampening the effect of the Skulk Rush -- or, increasing its effectiveness due to proximal starting locations. It would add another level of strategy. Plus, it's lame starting in the same Marine Start every single time. Boring. I want to start in Pipeline and fight up Pipeline staircase. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
make marine start random, like alien start. will make the game more fair.
I'm suggesting that Marine Start be random, just like the first Alien Hive. This will make it more balanced in terms of starting knowledge. Aliens won't know where Marine Start is, severely dampening the effect of the Skulk Rush -- or, increasing its effectiveness due to proximal starting locations. It would add another level of strategy. Plus, it's lame starting in the same Marine Start every single time. Boring. I want to start in Pipeline and fight up Pipeline staircase. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
make marine start random, like alien start. will make the game more fair.
Comments
The marines attack a position defended by Kharaas...
There is no much way in a spatial case to enter...
Maybe create a choice at start between 2 possible locations to attack but i think the marines are organized, strategic... No way for randomness in a human strategy...
Aliens gain the early advantage in location, in that the humans don't know where to search. However, humans too have an advantage in that they can move where ever they wish on the map. Later in the game, this can be quite invaluable. I've seen some games won simply because a human with a jetpack built a command chair before the initial base was destroyed and the Kharaa had trouble pinpointing the new base.
It's even as it is. If anything, it is unbalanced regarding game time, but the advantage is weighed properly with disadvantage on both sides regarding spawning (undoubtedly done on purpose).
Strategically speaking, benefits would be relative to map-layout, nothing more.
Exactly. It seems to be impossible to create one balanced marine start on most maps, I'd rather not force the mappers to consider 5 potential locations.
I think 3 random hives are the maximum when it comes to the random spawns. Just give both teams enough of possible choices and they should be able to variate their play depending on the hive location.
Making mapping hell = bad idea. It's hard enough to account for the 3 possible Hive locations.
Why should every map be forced to have three hives? Having less should be allowed, though in all fairness to the Kharaa, the mapper should also be allowed to prevent certain human buildings and upgrades from being made.
Why should every map be forced to have three hives? Having less should be allowed, though in all fairness to the Kharaa, the mapper should also be allowed to prevent certain human buildings and upgrades from being made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LUA coding time!
Actually, incorporating an entity that restricts buildings for the maps would be interesting. You would also have to have a system to let you know how many of each building is allowed if there are restrictions. This might be a little over and above the vanilla game design, which is why I'm betting it will be left up to 3rd party modification.
tech levels? =)
Having just 3 hive spots can change too, maybe how many the mapper is going to make, just, once the 3rd is up, no more can be placed. More things for 3rd party ppl to make, right next to Combat
Having chooseable spawns for marines, and random for aliens, then giving all the ideas of some above posts, leaving it all up to the mapper.
You can either go pro and give 3 marine locations, and 6 alien locations, or you can make it simple
1 marine, 1 hive locations, each team only gets the basic builds, res nodes, armory(Adv too), TF, OC, turret.
This gives pro mappers more ideas to throw into a map, or for a first timmer, something very simple to do
You can give the marines infinite starting locations to choose from, and give the aliens infinite locations to randomly start at, and hive at. Or you can just give 1 to each.
Perfect idea Hawk.
By map dynamic I mean:
Marine Start:
1 RT (built)
1 vent exit
2 entrance corridors
The first rooms from Marine Start must have:
15 second travel times, or be 30 meters away
connecting corridors (to eachother)
1 RT, total (only 1 room can have the RT)
vent split
corridor split
Second room from marine start:
30 second travel times, or be 60 meters away
MUST be close to a hive
MUST have an RT
Must have climbable vent Access
Third Room from Marine Start:
45 second travel time, 90 meters away
Is in Siege Distance to a Hive
Has DYNAMIC INFESTATION barely growing (given 60 more seconds, that room will be infested AND the marines can't siege up).
Four room from marine start:
IS a HIVE
HAS an RT
This promotes early game siege rushes that decline in potential (due to growing DI). If the aliens fight hard to protect that area, the game won't be over because the marines wouldn't have been able to build the siege cannon in range. Or, something like that. I'm in original NS mode with the siege engine right now.
So, if we know these certain facts, a more stable and strategic game can be developped. You know what I'm saying?
Strategy is time/distance/speed relationships. Then, if you were really good, certain starting locations would have a "better" early game strategy than in another location, unless, the standard.
You can see strategy in skiing. The person who accelerates fastest in the beginning, tucks down the best, and is able to ski closest to the poles wins. This is because the "poles" are the only criteria the skiiers are taught to pay attention to. So, NS needs "criteria" poles that actually relate to strategy.
You can build a Seige on DI, how? It can move.... its moveable =) it a tank.
Not necessarily. Alien Hive structure is much different than Marine. They tend to be tighter quarters to allow wall walking and more vent access, whereas MS is usually more open and defensible and NO vent access (except that one map that I forget the name of). Also, an Alien Hive needs a location to setup potential siege. Marine Starts don't require that setup. Finally, the lighting and surrounding architecture are different. Alien Hives are darker, have more infestation, and has a higher density of objects and vents to allow hit-and-run, whereas around MS you typically have nice long hallways.
Agreed, I would make it 5 possible hive areas though, so that even 3 filled up by hives and the marines trying to deny by setting up base in one of them. I've always felt the maps could have a bit of slack in that respect to allow for more movement across the map and give more sense of the maps being dynamic rather than the only set in stone strats.
Spellman, I am not sure I understand your point because many of the hives I remember being in were very much open, thanks to the dimensions required for the hive model at the very least. I remember some of those hives being not all that difficult to defend from hive 2 life forms with a team that worked together through voice communication and specialized roles.
Granted, a lot (read: all) of this gets lost after many replays, but it's worth mentioning since it is an integral part of the game's initial design, and should be considered as such for NS2, even if it does end up being changed.
Who knows, the story behind each "landing spot" could be unique.
Um, OK. Let's work on a specific map.
ns_veil.
You have a very open Marine Start, nicely setup to defend the chair on the raised floor and long hallways stretching to the rest of the map.
Pipeline Hive is also very open. This is usually a problem since Marines tend to easily spawn camp here by standing near the stairs. Take this as a not-so-great Alien Hive.
Cargo Hive, however, has plenty of nice nooks and crannies, including a nice vent along the top, to hide. Granted it's still pretty nice and spacious to accommodate potentially 16 Oni and the Hive model, but much better cover, especially with the depressed part of the floor for the RT and recessed walls. Also, it's surrounded by vents to allow better access. Most commanders also try to take advantage of the long hallway nearby to setup siege, Cargo's primary weak point.
Also, many players like to go Jetpack on ns_veil to take advantage of the extra spacious Hive rooms.
Let's take a quick look at ns_eclipse. Eclipse Hive is also fairly large, but it also has two large walls blocking off parts of the Hive and granting the Aliens plenty of nice nooks to hide in. As a bonus, the nearby halls aren't too long and aren't well lit. OF course, the south hallway is problematic, which is why Marines tend to try for an attack through there, with the cost of longer travel time from Marine Start. The ceiling also have infestation to hide a skulk or lerks. Basically, it may be open, but compared to the spacious Marine Start room, it is much more cramped and many more places to hide and defend from.
So yes, you're correct in stating that the Hive rooms aren't especially cramped and such. The trick is the extra hiding spots and techniques to help partition the Hives such that you can't have line of sight to all of it (hopefully most of it) from a single location, making it easier for the Aliens to work in their element.
Also, ns_lucid does an insane job at partitioning the Hives to make them non-Marine friendly. Sometimes a little too much as your skulk gets jostled by all the rocks.
EDIT: quick grammar changes
If that's the case, make all these rooms easily defendable (for both Marines & Aliens) which will naturally make those rooms hard to attack (for both Marines & Aliens).
If you are INSIDE the room, there should be an elevated area (to compliment Ranged Weaponry) and also many little places to hide (complimenting skulk stealth). Make it so the CC & Hive can't be hit from any corridors. The map layout should promote the defending team's ability of exiting the MS/Hive.
That's why I suggest a "standard" NS2 map, following criteria like this. This would accomodate multiple spawn points (for both teams).
Say for example more vents. This helps Aliens, but disadvantages Marines (until they get JP). Elevated open lines of sight helps Marines, hurts Aliens. Darker rooms help Aliens, hurt Marines, etc.
So, you are going to be hard pressed to figure out a strong way to make it <b>defensible</b> for both sides. Another example. Marines care about line of sight. Elevated CC gives a nice fall back but still plenty of cover for bullets. For Aliens, a raised platform = target practice for Marines. It is harder to defend for Aliens. They require lowered ground to constrict Marines on the ground and to take advantage of wall walk/blinking/flying. However, Marines in a pit are food for the above reason.
Basically, I can see making a <b>balanced</b> room for both sides, but not necessarily a <b>defensible</b> for both sides since the way they defend are completely different. Marines bunch up and fire out, Aliens chaotically weave in and out and bounce off walls and need avenues to hide in.
VENTS
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You can cut vent properties in half. This means you can have one vent that starts INSIDE <b>the balanced room</b> but Y's into 2 separate vents to the OUTSIDE. This lets the defenders attack the outside from 2 angles, but have to defend only 1 angle themselves. This one angle can be controlled by a single marine (like a vent-plug). This vent must be enterable from INSIDE and be navigable by marines completely. This would also create larger exit potential.
(outside, 2)
Y
(inside, 1)
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CC / Hive Placement
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Both would be placed Out-Of-Sight of the corridors, but in Partial-Sight from Corridor End (aka Doorway). Partial sight from the moment the enemy "is inside" the room.
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COVER
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Cover would be a strategy composed of early building placement by the commander.
VENTS
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Only helps Aliens until JP Marines. Good try, though. Shows you're thinking.
Also, Cover helps Aliens, not Marines. Aliens also tend to not build many buildings in base, unlike Marines, and if they do they are more important alive than as cover. Marines tend to only turtle for last stands. Otherwise, open area = kill zone.
(vent) (marine)
========= 0
Skulks traveling through the vent will be killed by the marine. As I said, the vent will be accessible by the marines in the defensive position (eliminating alien vent potential.) Plus, the Vent can only be entered by Marines from the Defensive Position, not offensive.
Consider welding objects. Consider spending resources to raise or lower obstacles, create open space or force the fight to close quarters. Open and close vents. Change enviroments.
Remember in NS1 when we welded something shut or open, it stayed in that state? It would be in an improvement in NS2 if that could change back to its previous state when the other side put in the effort and resources to have that happen.
I always kinda pictured the story of a map then being if it used to be a human habitat, the marines would be trying to repair it to get it back into their territory and the Kharaa would be trying to wreck it so it would change into their territory.
IMHO, the equal chance spawn is the ability be strong in your territory, that you would seek to gain momentum of your enviroment changes towards owning more than the other side so that more of the enviroment plays to your strengths.
The Kharaa would have their spawn hopefully improved against spawn camping with the "glowies" and my suggestion for the marines would be the marines actually spawn in a special room that represents the drop ship and that stepping through a portal would allow them to step through the infantry portal, similar to a NS1 phase gate - allowing a build up of troops if it was needed. I hope that makes sense.
@toxic: I think you're missing the point. They are free entrances usable by Aliens and not exits available to Marines. In some respects your system gets rid of most of the issue with camp-able vents, but the fact remains that vent provide an entry and exit for only one team. The way to counter this would be such that to enter/exit at a point where you don't have line of sight (maybe partial on exit) of the Hive/CC.
I like Canadian's idea, though, or a morphing room depending on who controls it, making it optimal for their team. Say there are vents, but if the Marines hold it, the vents close up. Aliens control, vents open, the infestation causes more bumps and pillars to form. Also, you would have to prohibit dropping a Hive as long as the CC exists in the room. Hive rushing MS = fail.
Naturally vents are alien friendly -- however, Marine range > skulks / lerks in vents. So, having the vents accessible by marines in the spawn point will cancel alien vent advantage. This is why: Marines can fire DOWN the vent @ the oncoming skulk. Most bullets will hit and kill the skulk. There could be three skulks charging. All will die. One last one causes the marine to whip out his pistol and quad shot him to death. The vent is the ultimate choke point, so a very unwise choice for attacking aliens. Defending aliens, however, will have the advantage with the vent. Not only will it line the corridors that lead into the hive, but also have multiple drop areas.
You must smoke some good #### if that doesn't make sense.
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My balanced spawn room makes it easier to defend by both forces...
Marines can be ambushed by vents (if aliens are defending)
Aliens can't get in by vents (if marines are defending)
Hive can't be shot from entrance corridor. Once they get to the actual room (doorway) the hive/cc is 1/2 cover.
The corridors accomodate marine defensive range. The corridors accomodate skulk vent drops. Want a picture or something? I feel like the prime time for defense is early game. Environmental defenses aren't as neccesary mid-late game because the threshold for damage is greater - fades / onos vs. HA / hmg.
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The fades get in/out really quickly (no matter the environment) and the Onos is a big fat meat shield... this reduces the effectiveness of hive protection.
In light of siege, however, there should be a siege area for each room.
You must smoke some good #### if that doesn't make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See co_umbra. Campable vents, the problem is too many entries for attack you can't cover them all. That's the point. More entry points = more directions to cover, unless you're implying the vents should be near the entrances, in which case they can easily be covered by the same view.
Also, building long straight vents would mean they need to double back somehow to help out in the attacker's room. I guess you could also brightly light them to help outline the skulks/ Lerks.
I can see your reasoning, I merely believe that the entropy of entrances is a bigger factor for defending a location. In an assault, it's easy to miss that skulk charging down the vent as a Fade pops through the main entrance.
And no, I don't smoke. I merely think on a very physical and visual logic and try to boil items down to simplest terms to deal with the core idea/issue. If you design it right, it just might work. The problem is getting it right, and others getting it right as well so it can be a core mechanic.
Draft 1
<img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z178/iruyun/balancedroomalpha.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Draft 2
<img src="http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z178/iruyun/roomlayout.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As you can see:
2 entrance corridors
1 vent w/ multiple drop points over entrance corridors (this forces offensive skulks into a choke point, but benefits defensive skulks with multiple drop points) (it also enables marines to lockdown).