<!--quoteo(post=1685604:date=Aug 10 2008, 11:01 AM:name=Pheus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pheus @ Aug 10 2008, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yep you cant do much except for wait really<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1685068:date=Aug 1 2008, 10:47 AM:name=AGrayOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AGrayOne @ Aug 1 2008, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection 2 should of been a straight port of NS to Source with enhanced textures, some new weapons and classes, and gigantic maps. They should of charged $10 for it (think Garry's Mod) and it should of been released a year and a half ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just so wrong... If that had been the case. Sure it MIGHT have been a nice way to make a cheap buck out of a "franchise"... and also create a lot of resent from your fans. The EA Battlefield franchise is the prime example where they just came up with countless expansions and sequels one after the other leaving previous games and thus current fans behind and without support (ouch!). Now I think that is a pretty nasty way to treat the consumer. Consequently this makes me resent the ##### gamers that feed these companies poor behavior and just buy any ##### big companies throw at them.
I appreciate companies and do care about making high quality and innovative games and tend to come up with fewer well done games which actually offer NEW experiences.
That said, I find it incredibly disturbing that you come here (UWE's "home"), insult, and ask one of my favorite game developing companies to behave like the companies I don't like and sell you some #### port with no innovation. Just "new textures, more weapons and classes".
Seriously, what were you thinking?
NS is still there as awesome as ever for you to play and enjoy at no extra cost. So go play it. I still play it more than any other game I have.
NS2 will be a NEW and different game with the same core game play principles. I'm quite happy with that, as I would not pay for just fancy textures.
[edit]
I grant the point about the updates (though I prefer "crappy" updates than no updates) and sure we all want NS2 to be out faster. But the OP was asking for NS:Source=NS+fancier textures... how many of us want that? Not me.
The constellation issue is one I'm not familiar with. What exactly was the point of those donations?
I love NS, like UWE, and if NS2 is good: THEN I'll give them my money.
<!--quoteo(post=1685643:date=Aug 11 2008, 01:32 AM:name=Jackson3113)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jackson3113 @ Aug 11 2008, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sure they don't, but in considering their position in a business sense, they are not doing themselves any favors in letting interest and awareness of their product die down, especially since they now apparently have an office which isn't going to be paying for itself. If i was someone who had donated to the future development of NS then i think i would feel the dev's do owe something a little better than a cool blue icon for all this time. I'm not posting here demanding they make this game just because i hate the dev team, before you get all defensive in the hope of getting a beta key or a big hug, think about why i would speak out. I post because of how much i enjoyed the original NS and i don't want to see it die. if this dev team is not going to carry on the legacy, if the fans are willing to work harder than the creators, then there is a problem here and the torch should be passed on to someone who is actually motivated to see this thing live. last time i checked, waiting 4'ish years for anything is a pretty good effort before i start b####ing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, I understand your concern for their business prospects, I share the same interest in seeing more to assuage my concerns but don't be too harsh:
- pretty sure its only been around the 2 year mark since they ran that survey asking us what we wanted and then announcing their intention to do NS2 - considering that it was only until recently in the development cycle that they have been financed from anything other than their own savings from other work - considering that the team used to be one person with off site help, then two people with off site help, and only recently office site with a fluctuating but growing development team size - considering they have shown us tools, proof of concept, work in progress code blocks
All things considered, their kimono is so wide open right now they practically run a nudist colony just a few steps shy of being open source.
Consider for a second why you wouldn't reveal a piece of work you consider to be incomplete to public scrutiny? Have you ever done it? I remember doing it as a kid, and people assume its the finished deal! You end up explaining till you are blue in the face how its a work in progress and even then people think your work is sub-standard, judging your final product before they see it because they just don't care enough to pay attention long enough to realize what they are looking at is incomplete at this time.
I am proud of their business to public relations acumen up to this point without casting aside their open and honest natures, traits hard learned from publicly releasing a mod, something people freely berate them for even though its free of charge.
Cut them some slack, its not like they are balancing your life's work and future prospects on a razors edge, its theirs.
Doing indy work is incredibly risky, if threads like these are anything to go by, since we are obviously all so understanding of the process of making the jump from free mod to purchased full game.
You know what, to answer the title "Create a product that I can buy.", have you tried the very casual priced game that they made? <b>Zen of Sudoku</b>. You can get it off of Steam and here is the website - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen</a> Personally, I enjoyed it, especially the art. Better than buying those paper Sudoku books, that's for sure. IIRC, you can even try it for free for a bit before you buy a product they created. One of the easiest ways to help fund the development of NS2 too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but don't be too harsh<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, typical fanboy thing to think, since i am criticizing the methods of the beloved dev team i am therefore, sitting here screaming my head of at my computer screen in a fit or rage..."
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- considering they have shown us tools, proof of concept, work in progress code blocks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am, and considering "its only been around the 2 year mark..." I'm saying that's slow.
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...just a few steps shy of being open source.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure, the only tiny difference being that this will not be free.
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- considering that the team used to be one person with off site help, then two people with off site help...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahuh, and back then they managed to produce the wonderful ns1, what has gone wrong since then?
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consider for a second why you wouldn't reveal a piece of work you consider to be incomplete to public scrutiny? Have you ever done it? I remember doing it as a kid, and people assume its the finished deal! You end up explaining till you are blue in the face how its a work in progress and even then people think your work is sub-standard, judging your final product before they see it because they just don't care enough to pay attention long enough to realize what they are looking at is incomplete at this time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not wanting them to show me their WIP's or wire frame renders that u think may be interpreted badly. By now they should be far beyond that, they should be able to show some complete and finished game assets such as models which are finished. also, you are somewhat contradicting yourself in suggesting first that "their kimono is so wide open right now they practically run a nudist colony just a few steps shy of being open source.", mentioning "their open and honest natures" and then going on to say that they are hiding their monumental progress from everyone to avoid "people think[ing] [their] work is sub-standard."
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what, to answer the title "Create a product that I can buy.", have you tried the very casual priced game that they made? Zen of Sudoku. You can get it off of Steam and here is the website - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen</a> Personally, I enjoyed it, especially the art. Better than buying those paper Sudoku books, that's for sure. IIRC, you can even try it for free for a bit before you buy a product they created. One of the easiest ways to help fund the development of NS2 too. smile-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... you've gotta be ######ing kidding me, now your advertising for them...
Forget it, I tried to be constructive here, bridge the gap of understanding, propose a compromise in ideology but the trolls are under the bridge, which is well on fire now, demanding their toll, huh? Just want to stoke the flames higher, eh?
At this point I could hardly expect you to understand these are concerns that have been voiced before by myself before in past pod cast threads and the like.
Yup, that's me, big unthinking sheep like fan boy, not some one with an interest in indy developed games so I get some different gaming experiences than the main stream titles. Sheesh. *shrug* Oh well, just another forum goer to add to the ignore list.
Forget it, I tried to be constructive here, bridge the gap of understanding, propose a compromise in ideology but the trolls are under the bridge, which is well on fire now, demanding their toll, huh? Just want to stoke the flames higher, eh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think Jackson3113 is actually just trying to have a discussion on the development process of NS2, and so am I. If you notice, all of your points have been separately rebutted and argued. But I guess that's just trolling, eh, when people have different opinions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup, that's me, big unthinking sheep like fan boy, not some one with an interest in indy developed games so I get some different gaming experiences than the main stream titles. Sheesh. *shrug* Oh well, just another forum goer to add to the ignore list.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, it's merely a rebuttal of your points and so I think you should settle down, tone off the sarcasm and actually be prepared to maintain a reasonable argument rather than calling "LOLWUT TROLLZ I CBF U = IGNORED" as soon as someone has taken the time to point out the flaws in your post.
<!--quoteo(post=1685726:date=Aug 12 2008, 04:02 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 12 2008, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forget it, I tried to be constructive here, bridge the gap of understanding, propose a compromise in ideology but the trolls are under the bridge, which is well on fire now, demanding their toll, huh? Just want to stoke the flames higher, eh? ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can you please tell me how <b>I'm</b> the troll here and <b>your</b> the one being "constructive?" your not trying to bridge the gap of anything, your trying to tell me to shut up when all i'm trying to say is it is sad and frustrating to see this project going nowhere when i want to see it grow. (and so do you, i thought) there's no conflict in ideology here that you need to find a compromise for, i'm expressing a valid point and so far you haven't said anything of weight to the contrary, all you've done is said "shut up and leave the devs alone, i love them and no one should care how long they take to make this game" i don't have anything against you at all and i'm not attacking you as a person but what can you expect me to say when u post something like you did where you where only trying to act as the dev teams' guardian angel by hushing me and not giving me or anyone else a reason, then why wouldn't i call you a fanboy? in a debate one is meant to rebut another arguments, thats all im doing here. But you can call me a troll for expressing my thoughts on the points you made if you want. noone needs to defend the dev team, why cant the dev team defend themselves? this is there website/forum we're on after all.
I seriously just got lost. Can someone try to recap in a few sentences what was the argument about? I'll give it a shot.
Let me try to recap.
*We ALL want NS2 to come out fast and good! *Its apparent that UWE is not able to deliver on that (not that they ever promised it)
And now we stand divided in two groups:
*1st group says: If you can't make a good product fast, then make the product FAST then. (Original Poster included) *2nd group says: If you can't make a good product fast, then make the product GOOD then. (Myself included)
Is that about right? Well... you may proceed then, because I got nothing to say that will settle this argument. Even though I wish I had.
no, i'm more saying: "make a product. (instead of making nothing slowly...)" or at least: "If you cant make a good product at all, then don't pretend you are."
Honestly this thread is basically an angry widdle guy screaming to other angry widdle guys because there game got insulted or something.
Anyways here goes my opinion.
The NS2 blog isn't really a blog but more of a "here is what we carefully planned to tell you in a nice round table with a microphone every week" then it turned into a "we ran out of furniture we bought at this store to talk about so were going to be quiet while the game gets 100% complete" then it basically turned into a "um we are making game really cool look here is generic Lua code" being the nerd I am cheered for Lua then stopped because they didn't post annnnything remotely interesting.
It would be better if it was stuff like.
We are currently making a cool shader for NS2 so it doesn't look like ###### like the Iron Grip port to it's own engine did or here is a map we started working on last week it's not done but then again we aren't nazis who are afraid to show WIPs.
I have to agree that it is frustrating having a lack of updates that show us some of the real nitty gritty they've been working on.
But I am holding out high hopes that NS2 will be a great game and will be as popular, if not more, than NS once was. But it would be nice to give the avid NS2 followers something juicy to see.
Holy crap, there are some pretty insulting comments and accusations being made in this thread.
Look, we appreciate the passion people have for NS, and understand that a lot of this anger comes from people's desires to get their hands on NS2. But please, try to realize that we are busting our asses on this game, there is progress being made despite the assertions to the contrary being made in this thread, and posting angry comments with no facts to back them up is really not helping the situation at all.
We have 4 fulltime people in the office. I was only hired a few months ago. Previous to that, there was very little concept art being created, which meant that the textures and models that were being made, were being created in a vacuum, more or less. I'm sorry if you feel that creating quality textures and models is fast and easy, but I've worked in the game industry for over 8 years now, and I know that it's not, especially when there is no concept art to work from.
Every game goes though a pre production period, where they are focused on concepting, R&Ding, and designing. This can last anywhere from 6 months to a year. Yes, NS 2 has been worked on in some form for longer then that, but during most of that time there were no fulltime, artists, and a lot of Charlie and Max's time was spent on the business end of things trying to get some money to be able to hire some artists. I have worked on games at other companies that took years to make with teams of up to 80 people. At Unknown Worlds we have 4.
Yes, we have been creating a lot of concept art oriented podcasts and videocasts. This doesn't mean that we don't also have level textures and prop models, and player models and textures either finished or being worked on. But, releasing a videocast showing a finished concept painting is a lot easier for people to visualize, then to make a podcast around a wall texture.
We are trying to be open with our fans, and include them in the development process as much as possible. We wouldn't be here without your support, and we want to give you a game that we are proud of and lives up to your expectations. I can't see how taking the time to release every little half finished model, texture or map, contributes to that end goal.
I really don't want to turn this into an even bigger discussion, and I'm not trying to make excuses, but it's hard for me to sit by, knowing how hard Matt is working on environment art, how much effort Charlie is putting into gameplay programming, game designing, and game directing, and how many nights Max has stayed up until 3 in the morning working on his awesome new graphics engine. I hope everyone can chill out a bit more, and try to keep these forums from turning into a negative place to hang out. Thanks.
Comments
QFT
beta key? please leave.
ibtl
That's just so wrong... If that had been the case. Sure it MIGHT have been a nice way to make a cheap buck out of a "franchise"... and also create a lot of resent from your fans. The EA Battlefield franchise is the prime example where they just came up with countless expansions and sequels one after the other leaving previous games and thus current fans behind and without support (ouch!). Now I think that is a pretty nasty way to treat the consumer. Consequently this makes me resent the ##### gamers that feed these companies poor behavior and just buy any ##### big companies throw at them.
I appreciate companies and do care about making high quality and innovative games and tend to come up with fewer well done games which actually offer NEW experiences.
That said, I find it incredibly disturbing that you come here (UWE's "home"), insult, and ask one of my favorite game developing companies to behave like the companies I don't like and sell you some #### port with no innovation. Just "new textures, more weapons and classes".
Seriously, what were you thinking?
NS is still there as awesome as ever for you to play and enjoy at no extra cost. So go play it. I still play it more than any other game I have.
NS2 will be a NEW and different game with the same core game play principles. I'm quite happy with that, as I would not pay for just fancy textures.
[edit]
I grant the point about the updates (though I prefer "crappy" updates than no updates) and sure we all want NS2 to be out faster. But the OP was asking for NS:Source=NS+fancier textures... how many of us want that? Not me.
The constellation issue is one I'm not familiar with. What exactly was the point of those donations?
I love NS, like UWE, and if NS2 is good: THEN I'll give them my money.
I'm not posting here demanding they make this game just because i hate the dev team, before you get all defensive in the hope of getting a beta key or a big hug, think about why i would speak out. I post because of how much i enjoyed the original NS and i don't want to see it die. if this dev team is not going to carry on the legacy, if the fans are willing to work harder than the creators, then there is a problem here and the torch should be passed on to someone who is actually motivated to see this thing live.
last time i checked, waiting 4'ish years for anything is a pretty good effort before i start b####ing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, I understand your concern for their business prospects, I share the same interest in seeing more to assuage my concerns but don't be too harsh:
- pretty sure its only been around the 2 year mark since they ran that survey asking us what we wanted and then announcing their intention to do NS2
- considering that it was only until recently in the development cycle that they have been financed from anything other than their own savings from other work
- considering that the team used to be one person with off site help, then two people with off site help, and only recently office site with a fluctuating but growing development team size
- considering they have shown us tools, proof of concept, work in progress code blocks
All things considered, their kimono is so wide open right now they practically run a nudist colony just a few steps shy of being open source.
Consider for a second why you wouldn't reveal a piece of work you consider to be incomplete to public scrutiny? Have you ever done it? I remember doing it as a kid, and people assume its the finished deal! You end up explaining till you are blue in the face how its a work in progress and even then people think your work is sub-standard, judging your final product before they see it because they just don't care enough to pay attention long enough to realize what they are looking at is incomplete at this time.
I am proud of their business to public relations acumen up to this point without casting aside their open and honest natures, traits hard learned from publicly releasing a mod, something people freely berate them for even though its free of charge.
Cut them some slack, its not like they are balancing your life's work and future prospects on a razors edge, its theirs.
Doing indy work is incredibly risky, if threads like these are anything to go by, since we are obviously all so understanding of the process of making the jump from free mod to purchased full game.
You know what, to answer the title "Create a product that I can buy.", have you tried the very casual priced game that they made? <b>Zen of Sudoku</b>. You can get it off of Steam and here is the website - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen</a>
Personally, I enjoyed it, especially the art. Better than buying those paper Sudoku books, that's for sure. IIRC, you can even try it for free for a bit before you buy a product they created. One of the easiest ways to help fund the development of NS2 too. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
yes, typical fanboy thing to think, since i am criticizing the methods of the beloved dev team i am therefore, sitting here screaming my head of at my computer screen in a fit or rage..."
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- considering they have shown us tools, proof of concept, work in progress code blocks<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am, and considering "its only been around the 2 year mark..." I'm saying that's slow.
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...just a few steps shy of being open source.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure, the only tiny difference being that this will not be free.
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- considering that the team used to be one person with off site help, then two people with off site help...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahuh, and back then they managed to produce the wonderful ns1, what has gone wrong since then?
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consider for a second why you wouldn't reveal a piece of work you consider to be incomplete to public scrutiny? Have you ever done it? I remember doing it as a kid, and people assume its the finished deal! You end up explaining till you are blue in the face how its a work in progress and even then people think your work is sub-standard, judging your final product before they see it because they just don't care enough to pay attention long enough to realize what they are looking at is incomplete at this time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not wanting them to show me their WIP's or wire frame renders that u think may be interpreted badly. By now they should be far beyond that, they should be able to show some complete and finished game assets such as models which are finished.
also, you are somewhat contradicting yourself in suggesting first that "their kimono is so wide open right now they practically run a nudist colony just a few steps shy of being open source.", mentioning "their open and honest natures" and then going on to say that they are hiding their monumental progress from everyone to avoid "people think[ing] [their] work is sub-standard."
<!--quoteo(post=1685672:date=Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Aug 11 2008, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1685672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know what, to answer the title "Create a product that I can buy.", have you tried the very casual priced game that they made? Zen of Sudoku. You can get it off of Steam and here is the website - <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/zen</a>
Personally, I enjoyed it, especially the art. Better than buying those paper Sudoku books, that's for sure. IIRC, you can even try it for free for a bit before you buy a product they created. One of the easiest ways to help fund the development of NS2 too. smile-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... you've gotta be ######ing kidding me, now your advertising for them...
Wow.
Forget it, I tried to be constructive here, bridge the gap of understanding, propose a compromise in ideology but the trolls are under the bridge, which is well on fire now, demanding their toll, huh? Just want to stoke the flames higher, eh?
At this point I could hardly expect you to understand these are concerns that have been voiced before by myself before in past pod cast threads and the like.
Yup, that's me, big unthinking sheep like fan boy, not some one with an interest in indy developed games so I get some different gaming experiences than the main stream titles. Sheesh. *shrug* Oh well, just another forum goer to add to the ignore list.
Wow.
Forget it, I tried to be constructive here, bridge the gap of understanding, propose a compromise in ideology but the trolls are under the bridge, which is well on fire now, demanding their toll, huh? Just want to stoke the flames higher, eh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think Jackson3113 is actually just trying to have a discussion on the development process of NS2, and so am I.
If you notice, all of your points have been separately rebutted and argued. But I guess that's just trolling, eh, when people have different opinions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup, that's me, big unthinking sheep like fan boy, not some one with an interest in indy developed games so I get some different gaming experiences than the main stream titles. Sheesh. *shrug* Oh well, just another forum goer to add to the ignore list.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, it's merely a rebuttal of your points and so I think you should settle down, tone off the sarcasm and actually be prepared to maintain a reasonable argument rather than calling "LOLWUT TROLLZ I CBF U = IGNORED" as soon as someone has taken the time to point out the flaws in your post.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can you please tell me how <b>I'm</b> the troll here and <b>your</b> the one being "constructive?"
your not trying to bridge the gap of anything, your trying to tell me to shut up when all i'm trying to say is it is sad and frustrating to see this project going nowhere when i want to see it grow. (and so do you, i thought)
there's no conflict in ideology here that you need to find a compromise for, i'm expressing a valid point and so far you haven't said anything of weight to the contrary, all you've done is said "shut up and leave the devs alone, i love them and no one should care how long they take to make this game"
i don't have anything against you at all and i'm not attacking you as a person but what can you expect me to say when u post something like you did
where you where only trying to act as the dev teams' guardian angel by hushing me and not giving me or anyone else a reason, then why wouldn't i call you a fanboy?
in a debate one is meant to rebut another arguments, thats all im doing here. But you can call me a troll for expressing my thoughts on the points you made if you want.
noone needs to defend the dev team, why cant the dev team defend themselves? this is there website/forum we're on after all.
Let me try to recap.
*We ALL want NS2 to come out fast and good!
*Its apparent that UWE is not able to deliver on that (not that they ever promised it)
And now we stand divided in two groups:
*1st group says: If you can't make a good product fast, then make the product FAST then. (Original Poster included)
*2nd group says: If you can't make a good product fast, then make the product GOOD then. (Myself included)
Is that about right? Well... you may proceed then, because I got nothing to say that will settle this argument. Even though I wish I had.
or at least: "If you cant make a good product at all, then don't pretend you are."
Anyways here goes my opinion.
The NS2 blog isn't really a blog but more of a "here is what we carefully planned to tell you in a nice round table with a microphone every week" then it turned into a "we ran out of furniture we bought at this store to talk about so were going to be quiet while the game gets 100% complete" then it basically turned into a "um we are making game really cool look here is generic Lua code" being the nerd I am cheered for Lua then stopped because they didn't post annnnything remotely interesting.
It would be better if it was stuff like.
We are currently making a cool shader for NS2 so it doesn't look like ###### like the Iron Grip port to it's own engine did or here is a map we started working on last week it's not done but then again we aren't nazis who are afraid to show WIPs.
But I am holding out high hopes that NS2 will be a great game and will be as popular, if not more, than NS once was. But it would be nice to give the avid NS2 followers something juicy to see.
Look, we appreciate the passion people have for NS, and understand that a lot of this anger comes from people's desires to get their hands on NS2. But please, try to realize that we are busting our asses on this game, there is progress being made despite the assertions to the contrary being made in this thread, and posting angry comments with no facts to back them up is really not helping the situation at all.
We have 4 fulltime people in the office. I was only hired a few months ago. Previous to that, there was very little concept art being created, which meant that the textures and models that were being made, were being created in a vacuum, more or less. I'm sorry if you feel that creating quality textures and models is fast and easy, but I've worked in the game industry for over 8 years now, and I know that it's not, especially when there is no concept art to work from.
Every game goes though a pre production period, where they are focused on concepting, R&Ding, and designing. This can last anywhere from 6 months to a year. Yes, NS 2 has been worked on in some form for longer then that, but during most of that time there were no fulltime, artists, and a lot of Charlie and Max's time was spent on the business end of things trying to get some money to be able to hire some artists. I have worked on games at other companies that took years to make with teams of up to 80 people. At Unknown Worlds we have 4.
Yes, we have been creating a lot of concept art oriented podcasts and videocasts. This doesn't mean that we don't also have level textures and prop models, and player models and textures either finished or being worked on. But, releasing a videocast showing a finished concept painting is a lot easier for people to visualize, then to make a podcast around a wall texture.
We are trying to be open with our fans, and include them in the development process as much as possible. We wouldn't be here without your support, and we want to give you a game that we are proud of and lives up to your expectations. I can't see how taking the time to release every little half finished model, texture or map, contributes to that end goal.
I really don't want to turn this into an even bigger discussion, and I'm not trying to make excuses, but it's hard for me to sit by, knowing how hard Matt is working on environment art, how much effort Charlie is putting into gameplay programming, game designing, and game directing, and how many nights Max has stayed up until 3 in the morning working on his awesome new graphics engine. I hope everyone can chill out a bit more, and try to keep these forums from turning into a negative place to hang out. Thanks.
--Cory