Strafing on walls
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Nerdish by NatureGermany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Nerdish by NatureGermany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">..and making it easier</div>I thought about wallwalking of skulks and the problem that you need additional commands (moveup and movedown/duck) in order to be able to strafe up and down on walls, which in result makes skulks either harder to navigate or easier to hit unless they start walljumping.
Given that the devs propably will improve wallwalking, but won't introcude viewrotation, I think the strafecommands should treat a wall like the floor so you won't need additional commands and thus additional keys anymore in order to move in all directions while wallwalking.
This means, if you strafe on the floor and hit a wall, you'll keep moving up the wall unless you stop using strafe or change view or use the other strafe direction to move down the wall.
Of course this would cause a little issue with ceiling walking, since your view doesn't rotate and thus the strafe directions switch, when making the transition from wall to ceiling.
I'm not sure, wether there is an easy solution of if it's just not a big problem at all, because players would adapt.
Given that the devs propably will improve wallwalking, but won't introcude viewrotation, I think the strafecommands should treat a wall like the floor so you won't need additional commands and thus additional keys anymore in order to move in all directions while wallwalking.
This means, if you strafe on the floor and hit a wall, you'll keep moving up the wall unless you stop using strafe or change view or use the other strafe direction to move down the wall.
Of course this would cause a little issue with ceiling walking, since your view doesn't rotate and thus the strafe directions switch, when making the transition from wall to ceiling.
I'm not sure, wether there is an easy solution of if it's just not a big problem at all, because players would adapt.
Comments
There will be no viewrotation? oO How's that?
1) I sure hope there's not view rotation. It really, really makes it hard sometimes to adjust and then there's the whole judging gravity and all that. I'm sure we can adjust, it's just that the current system feels more intuitive, although less "realistic"
2) While I can see the point of a smooth transition from strafing on the ground to strafing up a wall, without view rotation this causes some problems. For example, I'm on the wall, facing "up" or opposite normal gravity, and I press right strafe. Does this make me go up the wall or slide along the wall? Perhaps this feature would only be active during the transition or when you're facing within a certain angle parallel to the ground? I do concur that this could really help Skulks maneuver walls more interestingly, but most of the time we go onto walls in the forward position anyways.
Basically, I don't think this system is worth it. It would be better to have a rotating view, i.e. the surface you are on is always "down" in your perspective to implement this kind of wall strafing. However, these view changes can really screw with perspectives and can be very jarring, especially if you're trying to track something and your view keeps rotating by 90 degrees. Try playing Tremulous a little, they've implemented the rotating view system, and it gave me a headache.
That's what I meant with strafe commands treating the wall like you are on the floor.
At the moment you have to watch up/down in order to be able to move in that direction via +forward or you need to bind another key (+moveup).
The idea is to make strafe commands useful while walking on the wall and watching along the corridor/room and give new players, that probably don't even know about +moveup and its effects, a better way to navigate on walls, which would be part of hopefully a lot of changes to make the skulk easier to use on walls.
Their movement would be less predictable, thus they were harder to aim at and imho it adds to the atmosphere of the game, because aliens don't always use the floor to approach their victims <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Aliens running towards you on walls, switching walls via walljump and so on can really creep the ###### out of you.
Unfortunately in the current ns version wallwalking isn't used to dodge/tank bullets unless you start walljumping, which just becomes popular among clanners, because newer players don't know about the advantages or how to do it.
Oh and big NO on viewrotationg.
While this is fun in singleplayers (I played AvP a lot), it would cause more harm in a mutliplayer game.
That was good stuff. Skulk wallwalking as is just feels... noobish and unresponsive. Sure it keeps people oriented, but that was the fun of view rotation, it took a lot of skill to be able to keep your orientation when what was up/down/left/right was always changing, but holy CRAP was it cool being a swam of aliens, running down hallways diagonally so that you'd go up the wall, then along the ceiling, then down the next wall, etc, etc.
But yeah, make it like AvP2 and have the crouch button lock the skulk into the surface he's on, and make it toggable. My 2 cents.
Edit: And since people go on about BHop like it's a diehard feature that should always be around cause you can always get better at it, locking to a surface and using view rotation has a similar feel. It's disorienting, but you can always get better at it, and the pros were ######ing deadly when they were good at it in AvP/AvP2.
That's what I meant with strafe commands treating the wall like you are on the floor.
At the moment you have to watch up/down in order to be able to move in that direction via +forward or you need to bind another key (+moveup).
The idea is to make strafe commands useful while walking on the wall and watching along the corridor/room and give new players, that probably don't even know about +moveup and its effects, a better way to navigate on walls, which would be part of hopefully a lot of changes to make the skulk easier to use on walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, so your suggestion is to treat players as though they had view rotation on, without it actually rotating?
I can see the benefits, especially if you continue to hold down strafe as you touch a wall and you keep going up. Cool. I can also see the argument for more maneuverability. The big problem, as you've pointed out, is the ceiling. A smaller, but perhaps more pronounced one, is variations from the xyz axis. Say you are looking down a hallway, along the wall, but facing 45 degrees upward. By pressing the strafe "into" the wall, you would move up and backward. As for the ceiling, either the cod reverts to the current system, or people will get very confused as to why the control scheme is reversed.
So, to simplify things, here's some solutions.
1) Just go all the way with view rotation. My personal problem with this is it elevates the learning curve a lot. AvP2 was close, but extremely jarring for new players.
2) Only allow this in certain situations, and tweak the code. For example, facing along the wall within a certain angle, say 30 degrees above and below the parallel to the floor, this system works and only gives up and downward motion. Or, strafing along the wall only works while looking along the wall within a certain angle, and again it only up and down motion. Probably a combination or both, since looking into the wall but slightly up should produce sideways motion along the wall, as should looking along the wall but straight up. Sorry if my 3D wording if poor.
The fundamental part is keep the system simple. Mixing and matching is a delicate balance, and keeping things consistent for players is key. Some are even learning with no FPS experience, and if it seems too hard to learn, they simply move on to another game. Some might claim this is something we want, a self-selection process, but I for one want new players, not just the dedicated pros. After all, who else will I be able to dominate 1v5 as a skulk? =]
Edit: Though I'd like it, as in AvP2, to be bound to a key, so you didn't start wallwalking and screw your rotation by accident.
Some people don't want to take a week to learn something. They would rather invest time in something with a bit more immediate gratification. Some people play only once a week, so you're asking them to be useless for a whole month of play?
The trick to a learning curve is a solid progression. Easy entrance, but steady growth. Being useless because you haven't mastered something that could take about a week to learn is not easily accessible. Running around and shooting a gun, being a builder Gorge, and providing intel are much more accessible, and progress easily into more advanced stuff such as more accurate aim, battle gorge to advanced forms, and the ambushing abilities come from hiding and gathering intel.
I admit that even as it stands NS has a tough learning curve, especially for Aliens. Many hardcore FPS players trip out about having to melee and understanding all the classes. Our goal is to help alleviate a little without dumbing down the game. That's why the +movement key was added. It simplifies a great mechanic, but skill will still dominate.
So in conclusion, view rotation would be nice. It helps solidify certain aspects, and I agree it can make movement unique and thrilling. The problem is all the implementations I've seen so far are difficult to grasp and can confuse the heck out of you as you shift from one surface to another.
Where is that that video the Devs shared with us ... ahh, here it is:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2007/12/skulk_view_rotation_from_the_archives" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/2007/12/s...om_the_archives</a>
As was commented at the time, IIRC, does that make anyone else feel nauseous?
Here is an experiment for you, tilt your head to the side for a second and hold it there, take the time to take in the view ... does your view rotate? No, you mind compensates for it and corrects the view for you.
Trust me, as long as its pretty clear to a player that they are sticking to a new surface, not rotating that view is one of the nicest things you can do for them.
Back to the main idea, which I basicly read as "When my wall/ceiling walking creature hits a wall, I want to start going up it, regardless of if I am looking at it or not." IMHO, a very good idea. I never really thought about it before, I guess I was just compensating for the NS1 mod by looking briefly at a wall when I wanted to start going up but that really would be a good thing to let that part of the creature get a boost. Lets see, if I am reading it right, it means if I strafe into a wall, I would start going up and continue that way until I change the skulk's look orientation.
Would it also be nice when back pedaling to also be able to start up a wall then too? I think it would as well.
ON TOPIC: yes always thought it would be a cool idea to be able to strafe, or even strafe jump on a wall for that extra agility.