Arms Lab Upgrades Enhancement
the_x5
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">a way of increasing strategical variation</div><u>What I'm proposing</u>:
<ul><li>Commanders can spend resources to customize their soldiers' weapons (and armor too?); perhaps in supplemental addition to the basic 10% increase to weapons damage that currently exists, perhaps as a subsitute</li><li>These upgrades are applied whenever a weapon is created/spawned/dropped much like the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102031" target="_blank">realistic upgrades idea</a>, except that you can keep the normal instant and global percentage damage increases (or instant loss if all arms labs taken out) and have your weapons upgrade. Now you all have to pay attention to what dropped guns had what. "Do NOT loose that HMG, that was the one with the combat sight and GL</li><li>Removing tampons-- er I mean hand grenades, and replacing with a customizable GL upgrade for cetain weapons (LMG & HMG?) or hell even a flamethrower attachement. Some guns like the shotgun and pistol shouldn't be able get some of those customizations (pistol could possible have a silencer making quieter fire, shotgun can't have those upgrades but perhaps can have a double shot researched)</li><li>These upgrades cost time and resources just like any other upgrade, so a commander has to choose his upgrade path.</li></ul>
<u>The big reason why to add</u>:
This adds HUGE possibilities for increasing tactical and strategic variation to the gameplay. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?&showtopic=101018" target="_blank">Let's not forget</a> the majority of you feel that is an important focus for NS2.
A smart commander well learned in the ways of an RTS will adapt these upgrades based on the situation and invest wisely. Silenced weapons for covert PG action? GL attachments for better RT defense and spam when exiting to a hostile phasegate-gone-meatgrinder? Combat sight, so marines can cover their teammates from further away and have a better chance of sniping that annoying lerk in the vent (PS: the pistol should NOT be a sniper rifle like it is now, no perfect shot, but that's a different topic)
This process of adaptation and evolving is what the name of this game is supposed to be implying for crying out loud. I don't see any reason why this would not be of great benefit to the game in NS2. As a matter of fact, it could be one of those things that makes the TSA marines different from so many other games with space marines *cough* <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102011" target="_blank">Halo</a> *cough*. Hell some of think the only difference is that they look like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=showtopic=101828" target="_blank">robocop</a>.
<u>Example</u>?
I remember this being demonstrated for that one new game for the Crye engine, but at the moment all I can think of as an example of customizable weapons is GRAW:
<img src="http://xzianthia.net/images/customizable_gun.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
What do you all think?
<ul><li>Commanders can spend resources to customize their soldiers' weapons (and armor too?); perhaps in supplemental addition to the basic 10% increase to weapons damage that currently exists, perhaps as a subsitute</li><li>These upgrades are applied whenever a weapon is created/spawned/dropped much like the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102031" target="_blank">realistic upgrades idea</a>, except that you can keep the normal instant and global percentage damage increases (or instant loss if all arms labs taken out) and have your weapons upgrade. Now you all have to pay attention to what dropped guns had what. "Do NOT loose that HMG, that was the one with the combat sight and GL</li><li>Removing tampons-- er I mean hand grenades, and replacing with a customizable GL upgrade for cetain weapons (LMG & HMG?) or hell even a flamethrower attachement. Some guns like the shotgun and pistol shouldn't be able get some of those customizations (pistol could possible have a silencer making quieter fire, shotgun can't have those upgrades but perhaps can have a double shot researched)</li><li>These upgrades cost time and resources just like any other upgrade, so a commander has to choose his upgrade path.</li></ul>
<u>The big reason why to add</u>:
This adds HUGE possibilities for increasing tactical and strategic variation to the gameplay. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?&showtopic=101018" target="_blank">Let's not forget</a> the majority of you feel that is an important focus for NS2.
A smart commander well learned in the ways of an RTS will adapt these upgrades based on the situation and invest wisely. Silenced weapons for covert PG action? GL attachments for better RT defense and spam when exiting to a hostile phasegate-gone-meatgrinder? Combat sight, so marines can cover their teammates from further away and have a better chance of sniping that annoying lerk in the vent (PS: the pistol should NOT be a sniper rifle like it is now, no perfect shot, but that's a different topic)
This process of adaptation and evolving is what the name of this game is supposed to be implying for crying out loud. I don't see any reason why this would not be of great benefit to the game in NS2. As a matter of fact, it could be one of those things that makes the TSA marines different from so many other games with space marines *cough* <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102011" target="_blank">Halo</a> *cough*. Hell some of think the only difference is that they look like <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=showtopic=101828" target="_blank">robocop</a>.
<u>Example</u>?
I remember this being demonstrated for that one new game for the Crye engine, but at the moment all I can think of as an example of customizable weapons is GRAW:
<img src="http://xzianthia.net/images/customizable_gun.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
What do you all think?
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1639795:date=Jul 20 2007, 02:28 AM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Jul 20 2007, 02:28 AM) [snapback]1639795[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A scope isn't too practical in ns either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's an upgrade to an ironsights giving one further perception at the cost of lost FoV, and yes it would be useful if you knew what to use it for and when. I don't think I can explain this unless you were proficently skilled in a game that demanded effective use of this at key moments in not only long range, but mid to mid-close range too. Play America's Army or GRAW for PC sometime and see how in close urban quarters map the combat scope and ironsight are deadly useful. For really, really close range you'd want the shotgun. So again this goes back to the commander having to adapt based on the environment the fighting will be taking place and being forced to make an educated guess about the best tech tree option.
<!--quoteo(post=1639795:date=Jul 20 2007, 02:28 AM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Jul 20 2007, 02:28 AM) [snapback]1639795[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->GL would be useful albeit possibly over-powered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And it would be drastically different from hand grenades how? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> It's only overpowered if it's not balanced. Grenade launchers require you to aim and have a much quicker velocity (meaning less arc too). Does this mean they could be more powerful than a hand grenade? Yes, but as it is currently, hand grenades are too low on the tech tree for their power and people used that way anyways when defending RTs or phasing. So where might this fit on the tech tree?
Prerequisites: Armory, Arms Lab, W2 researched, GL attachments researched
Research time: 60 sec
Research cost: 18 res
Damage: 100 hp
Air friction: low
Velocity: medium-high (about the same as a skulk's leap w/o celerity)
Equiped: on spawn, or when an upgraded weapon like a HMG is dropped (the commander has to think ahead and save up resources appropiately
Keep in I'm just throwing out a guess on the numbers, but you can see my point in how many varibles there are that can be tweaked and how I'd like it implemented. This gives commanders a reason to research weapons 2 before an armor upgrade.<!--quoteo(post=1639795:date=Jul 20 2007, 02:28 AM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Jul 20 2007, 02:28 AM) [snapback]1639795[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clip extenders, reload shorterners, cone of fire reducers, 'permanence' (doesn't disappear when dropped after time?) are possibilities perhaps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok my turn to critique then?<ul><li>Magazines! They aren't called frikin clips! </li><li>Reload shorterners? Horrible name but I understand what you are getting at. A rapid deploy ammunition system, possible as part of the armor with accompanying model animations.</li><li>Cone of fire reducers? Come on... Barrel upgrades, ammunition upgrades, etc. A scoped weapon or weapon when the soldier aims down the ironsights would be the better way to give increased accuracy and excuse reducing the recoil spread which is simulated with the cone of fire.</li><li>Permanence... not sure if this is good or bad. Obviously it benefits the marines but hard to tell to what degree.</li></ul>
I'm guessing you meant chokes? A choke is a slight narrowing of the barrel of a shotgun serving to concentrate the shot, often used to make long-ranged shots, and attached at the end of the barrel. Just, you know, for future reference. I don't think they could really serve a purpose in NS2. It could be used as a secondary fire option, but I'd rather have a shotgun in the form of a club so I could beat aliens back. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />
Edit:
I totally agree with the original post. It all sounds so beautiful. *tear*
Might I suggest that the "random drop" that NS1 has now be changed out for something where you can specifically pick who gets what kind of weapon but also allow some choice from the marine themselves for what kinds of tweaks that weapon load out has? Given the commander has researched those weapons and tweaks ... and further given that the marine asking for the weapons has carried out the commanders requests/orders so that there are the available resources for that research.
As for grenades, they are a high risk substitute for GL, you can throw one and do medium damage to structures or take out rt biting skulks without wasting ammo but you leave yourself open due to long activation. A addon GL will not have these disadvantages and if given to perhaps 3 people they can neutralize the role of a true GL (I do not imagine these upgrades will cost very much).
Lets not forget that having lots of custom (in this ex, lmgs) weapons will allow marines to have a greater chance to pick up one (more better weapons = more efficient). Dropping 2 addon GLs have higher probability of being picked up again rather then one GL, even if you only get one you only loose half the res, instead of it all.
I have a feeling I'm just talking nonsense in this last paragraph but I'll leave it up meanwhile.
As for the silencer, not being able to talk when dead is kinda lame, but using it to kill w/o revealing your position would be useful. That being said you want to be careful not to encourage camping and whatnot as marines.
I just hate ironsights, crosshairs all the way.
And yes we do have hand grenades but you only get one and it leaves you rather open for attack. An underbarrel GL would presumably have more than 1 shot. Although having just one shot and needing to reload from an armoury after each 1 shot could be interesting. That would make them similar to hand nades on the field, but if the marines are attacking a wall of lame or something the comm can simply drop an armoury to dispatch it.
An additional idea.
I would like to see you be able to return guns and gun upgrades. Two reasons.
1) GF turned up got to go ~ team does not suffer
2) OC spam get a 2XGL then OC all gone return the GL for that HMG.
The com can set an option to let the marines keep a portion or all of what they kill. I hit an onos for 3res and it gets split 2 for the com and 1 for me. The com can call this back at any stage if needed for arms upgrade etc but if the team has a steady res flow I can intsead use this to "purchase" researched upgrades. This means that the marines can by their own upgrades once they have earnt their keep and means the COM can concentrate on dropping ammo, buildings and scanning rather than zooming back to the base every five mintues to requip the marines. Of course there needs to be a cap, i.e yopu can only have 40res on your person, after which all extra goes to the team.
Upgrade to welders to allow limited self weld
~ slower than getting welded by someone else
~ only goes up to 75% armor
Common in alot of RTS now where you click on a singular unit or group
and give them flaming arrows or whatnot.
Can be used as a reward system as well.
"Good job Jimmy, you get a grenade launcher attachment"
"Good job Jimmy, you get a grenade launcher attachment"
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Wow, I didn't even consider that as a pro to this idea! Commander can better optimize for individual soldiers and available resources and use it as an incentive system at the same time. Brilliant!
[youtube]iWqGLVaITsk[/youtube]
(sorry I had to <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
This will make the armor chock nearby enemys like the electric gunfactory/Resorce tower.
Mabe the damage and range should be tweaked so it doesnt get to powerfull.
Commanders tend to only drop essential items. You can see this by how much cat packs get dropped, or gls when you don't need them. Ask yourself, is there any situation where a commander would rather drop his entire team silencers instead of half his team of shotguns? Instead of a quarter of his team shotguns? the same goes for magazine extenders, rapid redeploy ammo, scopes, barrel stabilizers. These are nice things to have but they are not essential. Nor do they improve the team as a whole which is a major departure from classic NS philosophy.
I think you could make a successful argument that giving the marines the ability to chose their own layouts of weaponry/add-ons would add to the game, but you're straying into combat/Savage territory which is a new direction. I wouldn't personally like this direction as you end up removing power from the comm.
- weapon (clip sizes, silences, bullet types, etc)
- outfit (weight and strength, JP, HA)
- helmet (night vision, heat sensing, radar)
These can be worked into combat easy, the more a player does.. the better the upgrades. Or in normal ns game play when the commander upgrades a particular item.
I was thinking about the types of armor's available at the moment.
- Light armor
- Heavy armor
Ever thought of implementing a new type of armor? Maybe an armor with a cloaking device on it that is undetected by alien sensory and activates for a certain amount of time? Sorry if this idea has already been aroused, im just a curious little hatchling..
Matt.
Again this is something the commander researches at the arms lab, not really dropped at all. If the commander is dropping new weapons and an attachment upgrade is researched, then and only then do we see these upgrades. Existing guns wouldn't have the upgrades yet. Perhaps there could be a way to add them on at an advanced armory.
I think this would be a really nice addition if the commander didn't have to drop any of these personal upgrades, Commander has enough to do and doesn't need people asking him every time they spawn, "Hay Comm can i getz a Silencer so i can go be a rambo ninja." However, it would be nice if the Commander upgraded it like grenades are now, and they spawn with it. I personally hate combat, although it is fun, it takes away from the original game; I could see however, a smaller ( much smaller ) personal upgrade system for marines to gain access to weapon attachments.
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QFT.
I can completely agree with this, it really would add to the model of being roles within a team, reduce micromanagement and increase skill sets. Upgrades on small scales for the win - of a fun game!
This especially could play well with any potential idea about squad leaders, though I'm not sure how would be best. Great thinking x5
Aye, I love this idea a lot but the comm's involvement should just be the extent of what he allows marines to select while they're at the armslab/armory for themselves. That way the comm dictates how res is spent, and the marines dictate which add-ons they wish to utilise...though it'd probably need a limit on number of add-ons selectable at one time.
This especially could play well with any potential idea about squad leaders, though I'm not sure how would be best. Great thinking x5
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This kind of gameplay would be very similar to Savage, where the commander picks the upgrade path but the normal players get to choose the weapons along that upgrade path.
You mean this?
<img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/images/news/guncollage01.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
For example...
When I die, maybe the commander would check my score and see me at the top of the list. So he decides I'm best suited for sneaky job that he needs to be done, so he assigns me a unique Gun/(possibly custom suit) for the job of sneaking into or near a hive, or maybe a scouting job... who knows but i like the idea of customizing certain marines before they spawn in.
For example...
When I die, maybe the commander would check my score and see me at the top of the list. So he decides I'm best suited for sneaky job that he needs to be done, so he assigns me a unique Gun/(possibly custom suit) for the job of sneaking into or near a hive, or maybe a scouting job... who knows but i like the idea of customizing certain marines before they spawn in.