What to do to prevent armory humping in NS2?
the_x5
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">brainstorming solutions cooperatively</div>I don't have a specific, neatly organized idea here as I am looking for us to collaborate on the brainstorming of ideas here. That's why this topic is going here in General Discussion and not the I&S.
define:: "Armory Humping" verb, progressive tense
the action of a player on the marine team in Natural-Selection wherein the subject stands near (or stands on) the armory and wastes time loading up on ammuntion when they need to be following orders.
<i>(screenshot needed here)</i>
<!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro--><u>What this topic is NOT</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><ul><li>A debate on whether you think armory humping is a problem or not</li><li>An opportunity for you to flame the humper that annoys you the most (or any other forum trolling for that matter)</li><li>A debate on how much it is a problem</li></ul><!--coloro:#00CC00--><span style="color:#00CC00"><!--/coloro--><u>What this topic is</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><ul><li>Answering the topic's title's question in how <i>you</i> feel it should be solved or reduced, and then defending your argument</li><li>Debate on whether it can be actually solved or just reduced</li><li>Analysis in "persuasive architecture"; meaning how design can influence behavior (and how to implement that)</li></ul><u><b>Try to remember</b></u>: <ul><li>This is for <b>NS2</b>, not NS v3.2</li><li>Treat this as a professional discussion</li></ul>Thank you for your time,
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->x5<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
define:: "Armory Humping" verb, progressive tense
the action of a player on the marine team in Natural-Selection wherein the subject stands near (or stands on) the armory and wastes time loading up on ammuntion when they need to be following orders.
<i>(screenshot needed here)</i>
<!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro--><u>What this topic is NOT</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><ul><li>A debate on whether you think armory humping is a problem or not</li><li>An opportunity for you to flame the humper that annoys you the most (or any other forum trolling for that matter)</li><li>A debate on how much it is a problem</li></ul><!--coloro:#00CC00--><span style="color:#00CC00"><!--/coloro--><u>What this topic is</u><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><ul><li>Answering the topic's title's question in how <i>you</i> feel it should be solved or reduced, and then defending your argument</li><li>Debate on whether it can be actually solved or just reduced</li><li>Analysis in "persuasive architecture"; meaning how design can influence behavior (and how to implement that)</li></ul><u><b>Try to remember</b></u>: <ul><li>This is for <b>NS2</b>, not NS v3.2</li><li>Treat this as a professional discussion</li></ul>Thank you for your time,
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->x5<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
Hmm...
How about changing the armory into a kind of meta space? How do I put this, it would be like, separate its roles because it fills two different roles right now as I see it:
1) Equipment Loadout
2) Resupply
As I see it, I think the nature of a marine selecting their own equipment loadout, changes things enough that it might be worth letting a marine step into something, I imagine a phased portal door opening that a marine could step into the armory on what I imagine would be the marine space ship that came to the map's location and see all the possible equipment on the wall, some of the stuff would be just a flashing hologram with the words like "need design program" or something that conveys the Commander needs to 'research' the designs for it, maybe even showing if its being researched. Point click graphical loadout. When a player's marine character steps out of the armory, they look like however they wanted to. In my imagination, the comforting imagery and sense of stepping out of the regular play would be something a new player would easily grasp and veterans could use speedily.
Then, in terms of resupply, IMHO, marines should have to carry a backpack or something, that would do that instead of the immobile armory structure. Let another player gain the kudos for 'I love you, you got me the med pack/ ammo pack!' ... in addition, the Kharaa get another moving target - sorta like in TF2, target the medic first, in NS1 (and hopefully NS2 more-so) you really did want to take out the welder, then it would be easier to take out the next one up the chain ... anyone else notice TF2 spy is kinda like playing a NS1 Kharaa skulk? Anyways, I think that is something else that should go from the realm of the Commander to the realm of the grunt Marine - then other marines can hump another marine, yay teamwork! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> Yes, laugh, but realize it could be yet another cool reason to stick with the buddy system that makes up teamwork in a FPS - IMHO, rambos/lone rangers shouldn't get medical/ammunition support nigh automatically as currently happens. Story-wise, you could say the nano-grid is a bit gimped now thanks to the infestation, its gone all dynamic and evolved to counter med/ammo pack drops.
1. Eliminate the armory - give a set amount of ammo with each weapon.
2. Decrease the time required to get ammo.
3. Appeal to the intelligence of players through tooltip-like messages. (Bad idea, because players don't necessarily like to read.)
The problem is that the armory plays an important role in NS as a bottleneck for marine development, albeit mostly only in public servers - in competitive servers the commander knows that time is important and often sacrifices resources whenever possible to save time.
If armory humping is really "that bad" then its prevention is really through these 3 options - find better ways to slow down the marine team if this is really necessary from a developer perspective.
My initial, impulse idea was a simple, "Why not just give you full ammo when you press use once? Eliminate the <i>time</i> needed to hold down the use key to get full ammo altogether."
Resultant Behavior: no need to hump when you can get it all at once
*** NOTE: Your current magazine wouldn't be magically refilled, you would still have to reload once when finished -- just your spare ammunition. ***
Cons?
Right now using the armory is a tradeoff. Time invested vs. time spent. You'll want an extra pack if you're traveling far or might run in into an OC.
Even though this is solely a pub problem maybe the answer can add depth to the game.
The armory should have a "power bar" like the obs. The ammo packs dropped while the bar has enough energy are free.
- commanders will be persuaded to drop more ammo packs, since they're "free"
- good commanders can manage their resflow better
- multiple amories, encouraging decoys, maybe opening up armories to have specific paths, ie one path for flamethrower, another for heavy weapons
- marines don't worry about ammo so much because comms drop it and won't feel the need to hump
- a sheep dog appears in one of the IP's and proceeds to chase everyone out of marine spawn
- bouncers in HA forcibly remove you from the base
seriously , i think the simplest thing would be, that a player that is amoury humping will be labelled as an amoury humper in the commanders view - that way the commander knows not to drop that player any weapons or items, since they don't deserve it.
ooh i do quite like the power bar solution above from locally too
As prevously state ammoury humping is a trade off between speed and ammo supply. often speed is necessary for an assult hence everyone getting angry when its all too slow.
Im only tempted to amoury hump on pubs when the comm keeps ignoring players or abandons us for good or evil. If the comm is going to control ammo pack purchases in ns2 this wont be a problem
Regenerating ammo? How do we define what rate of firing is "too careless" or "too conservative"? It's going to depend on the map, the alien team, and vary throughout the round.
I say keep it simple.
Or not: Create an "assault mode" that can be triggered by the commander (perhaps on an armory) which informs the team (with that annoying female voice) that they should proceed to the designated waypoint and that the armory is disabled.
Regenerating ammo? How do we define what rate of firing is "too careless" or "too conservative"? It's going to depend on the map, the alien team, and vary throughout the round.
I say keep it simple.
Or not: Create an "assault mode" that can be triggered by the commander (perhaps on an armory) which informs the team (with that annoying female voice) that they should proceed to the designated waypoint and that the armory is disabled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would it irritate players? If you don't have enough in your "power-bar" you pay full price of one res per ammopack. That's it. Of course the resources required to drop ammopacks for a larger team are more. A larger team requires more shotguns, more healthpacks, more everything. If you think it's worth it you drop more armories to try to get more free ammopacks. You have to weigh the cost of the extra armories vrs. the savings of the free ammopacks. That's what commanding is all about, cost benefit analysis. If you're a new comm who doesn't know what's worth it and what's not you're not going to care about the armory power bar, you're going to drop ammo when you feel like it.
I imagine that you have commanding experience. If you do, you'll know that your time is spent moving all over the place to keep track of marines, resources, alien development, attacks on hives, defense of base, etc. etc. Keeping track of resources is also important. Now, as busy as commanders already are, with your idea they will also have to keep track of a powerbar on an armory that will start charging full price for ammo packs once it runs out. It would be irritating to see your resources get drained by 5 players getting ammo packs - that's 5 resources a second (assuming 1 res per ammo pack).
Consider that commanding is already complex as it is. Adding this idea will just make the job more stressful because you have to babysit marines that want to waste your res by armory humping.
And why, as a commander, would you want to drop more armories to prevent ammo packs costing resources? 1. That would just promote armory humping. 2. There would be nothing to stop players from using the armory whose power bar runs out.
As it is already, commanders sometimes solve the armory humping problem by recycling the armory at their base. The only con to this (besides whiny players who haven't got a clue) is that upgraded armory status is lost.
Your criticisms seem predicated on the idea that comming should always be easy. I suggest you read some of the sirlin article Radix linked in one of his recent posts to try and see my point of view.
The reason alot of people humped the armory in NS1 was because you didn't spawn with maximum ammo, even if the amount of ammo you spawned with was nearly always more than enough anyway.
The reason Marines don't spawn with maximum ammo is because 1 good Marine can take out 2-3 Skulks (more if they're really good) before having to reload. Right now a Marine pushing a Hive early just to hinder the Aliens' reinforcement rate needs support from the comm for ammo and health, but definitely ammo. This means resources must be spent to keep him in that position, or time must be wasted getting free ammo from the armoury.
If Aliens weren't allowed to expand across the map and reach key areas in the early game their progress would be severely reduced. Right now it makes sense that the Marines have to spend res to attempt to deny them map control. If a Marine spawned with enough ammo to take out 10+ Skulks the game would really suffer because of it.
1. Eliminate the armory - give a set amount of ammo with each weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain?
<!--quoteo(post=1676054:date=Apr 17 2008, 11:27 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Apr 17 2008, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Decrease the time required to get ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1676054:date=Apr 17 2008, 11:27 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Apr 17 2008, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Appeal to the intelligence of players through tooltip-like messages. (Bad idea, because players don't necessarily like to read.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't remember whose idea this was, but.. Use 'icons' to represent common in-game terminology, ie. the icons would replace certain words and it would streamline the reading of tooltips and take less space, ie. be less obtrusive.
*shrug* I only got this far. I'll read the rest tomorrow. 'night.
Your criticisms seem predicated on the idea that comming should always be easy. I suggest you read some of the sirlin article Radix linked in one of his recent posts to try and see my point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually read the Sirlin article back when NS was still version 2.0. You're now completely ignoring the points that I have raised: commanding is already difficult as it is for players to learn it and do it well - there are very few descent commanders, let alone good ones, that I have ever seen in NS. Adding another thing to keep track of that can potentially ruin your resource management plan is not necessary or desirable. It would just make the commander role even more stressful than it already is. Yes - good commanders can accommodate the powerbar feature - but why is it necessary to make the role even more difficult than it already is? All we want to do here is prevent armory humping.
Well if this was introduced maybe if could have say... 10 ammo packs in it and the person with the kit bag just switchs to kit and pressed left click to slowly heal like the wall units on HL1 or right click to give 1 ammo pack to someone.
(this would make it so Armourys could only be used to refill kit bags and not for individual use of marines)
Just an idea......
Thanks for reading,
Jester.
By contrast, armory humping with heavy weapons is virtually a necessity, as heavy weapons spawn with no spare ammunition at all. A commander who drops a set of shotguns for his marine team has the choice of watching the entire team delay attacking for 10 seconds as they get ammo, or spending an extra 4 or 5 res <i>per gun</i> to make sure his marines can reload.
Now, suppose you changed this somehow for NS2 so heavy weapons carriers wouldn't have to waste time getting ammo at base. This changes strategic options somewhat, as that extra 10 seconds of deployment speed can be very important in such a fast paced game. This doesn't mean the idea is worthless, just that the strategic impact has to be considered for balance.
Suppose newly dropped weapons spawned with a full clip and 2 reloads, and the price was increased slightly to compensate. Just like that, you have removed the need for armory humping for pretty much anyone not wearing proto-tech. Of course, if what you're worried about is players who don't NEED extra ammo but want to waste time on it anyway, then I'm not sure what could be done about that. Reducing their need for ammunition is pointless if they already don't need any more.
The simplest solution is usually the best.
"Why do I even respond to some of these threads."
I think your points are completely blown out of proportion. A new comm can completely ignore it to no detriment. He'll get a few ammopacks for free and won't undestand why. That's hardly "potentially ruining your resource management plan". It's not making the role any more difficult, you still have to keep track of how much you spend now. It provides a tool for good commanders to manage their resflow better.
My idea is this, all players "spawn" with the obligatory 3 clips (1 loaded, 2 reserved)
as an upgrade at the armory for the commander to determine to do, he can choose to UPGRADE a players spawning ammo reservoir. Lets say 10 res to spawn with 25 more bullets every upgrade
therefore you can upgrade theoretically (assuming the amount of ammo from NS1 carries over into NS2) 6 times so that every player spawns with full ammo, that way players have no need for armory humping unless they run out and manage to find themselves back at base. Bam, spend 1 res and you have 250 more bullets available.
comms would still be able to drop ammo packs as needed
My idea is this, all players "spawn" with the obligatory 3 clips (1 loaded, 2 reserved)
as an upgrade at the armory for the commander to determine to do, he can choose to UPGRADE a players spawning ammo reservoir. Lets say 10 res to spawn with 25 more bullets every upgrade
therefore you can upgrade theoretically (assuming the amount of ammo from NS1 carries over into NS2) 6 times so that every player spawns with full ammo, that way players have no need for armory humping unless they run out and manage to find themselves back at base. Bam, spend 1 res and you have 250 more bullets available.
comms would still be able to drop ammo packs as needed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kinda complex solution for a simple and minor problem. I'd say you either spawn with enough of ammo or you clearly explain people that you don't need that many ammo. If someone is able to blast skulks for 150 ammo without dying, I'm more than happy dropping him some more. If the commander isn't quick enough to drop more, hump the armory.
The simplest solution is usually the best.
"Why do I even respond to some of these threads."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple and I like it except the fact that good marines will probably unload 1-2 clips after spawning in and leaving base to be faster, which seems kinda disturbing to the game-atmosphere/mood and game experience.
So I rather think there should be either more information/in-game hints for new players or make full ammo'd marines just a way slower than they are used to be.
Maybe have an upgrade available at the armory to make any respawning marines start with more ammo. That way, maybe players wont feel the need to spawn, then proceed right to the armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1676193:date=Apr 18 2008, 02:15 PM:name=Emanon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Emanon @ Apr 18 2008, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spawn with full ammo, you rarely die because you didnt have enough reserve ammo. Then balance for the res related issues with the new res system.
The simplest solution is usually the best.
"Why do I even respond to some of these threads."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->...and still another said...<!--quoteo(post=1676398:date=Apr 21 2008, 09:27 AM:name=Alcapwn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alcapwn @ Apr 21 2008, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, this wouldn't eliminate armory-humping early game, but maybe for mid-late game.
Maybe have an upgrade available at the armory to make any respawning marines start with more ammo. That way, maybe players wont feel the need to spawn, then proceed right to the armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->...which are all about starting with full ammunition @ spawn.
Pro: Solves issues with needing any additional ammunition to start since you are already at the maximum
Pro: It is definitely following KISS policy. (Keep It Simple, Stupid)
Con: Ignores the resupply benefit of the armory
EXAMPLE: When I command (talking NS, not NS2) and I need to hold an area -- like building up a phase gate for a siege. I'll drop an armory. Why? Because 5 ammo/medkits (at 2 res each) = 1 armory at 10 res, but with one critical difference. The armory can provide UNLIMITED health and ammo for my teammates.
Neutral: FPS games with limited ammunition weapons have an important game play balance factor in that the max ranged damage that is carried.
EXAMPLE: Ok, let's say this hypothetical "gun" fires bullets which do 10 damage each @ 800 rounds/min in full-auto, with a magazine size of 40 rounds.
Your max capacity is then is 1 mag loaded, 5 carried, and one bullet already in the chamber. (many FPS games are too lazy to do this)
Spawning with 1 magazine loaded and 1 spare, no bullet in chamber
10(40(1)) + 10(40(1)) + 10(0) = <b>800 </b>total ranged damage carried per spawning soldier
--versus--
Spawning with 1 magazine loaded and 5 spare mags, and bullet in chamber
10(40(1)) + 10(40(5)) + 10(1) = <b>2410 </b>total ranged damage carried per spawning soldier
There <i>is </i>a major difference here, more than three times as much! Consider that weapon upgrades in NS v3.2 add an additional 10% of the base damage. (in this case the damage multiplier would go 10 (base), 11 (lvl 1), 12 (lvl 2), 13 (lvl 3))
Now could that be considered in balancing? Of course it could, but it should <i>not </i>be ignored.
More playtester-ish problem solving questions:
BONUS QUESTION #1: What's the difference in time for the two mentioned above marines to fire off every round?
POSSIBLE REASON FOR CONSIDERATION: balanced against HP & Armor of a target unit or structure
BONUS QUESTION #2: Assuming a reload time of 4.2 seconds; what is the minimum # of marines needed to stagger firing to create a continuous barrage of fire on a single target.
POSSIBLE REASON FOR CONSIDERATION: cover fire balance
It's a good simple idea, but everybody needs to remember that it's far more complex than that. And that's just in-theory, before it gets used in practice.
<b>vote <!--coloro:#AAAA00--><span style="color:#AAAA00"><!--/coloro-->undecided<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
It seems this is fairly popular but I feel it needs to stand up to some well-thought-out criticism.
<!--quoteo(post=1676072:date=Apr 17 2008, 03:42 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 17 2008, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Demonstrate clearly that heavy ammo load slow you down, both humping and movement wise. Depending on NS2 mechanics of course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is my favorite solution proposed thus far.<ul><li>It's simple. </li><li>It allows for a trade off which players are free to choose their own balance on. (fire power vs. mobility)</li><li>It supports an element of realism (more mass)</li><li>It would be easy to adjust when testing to get it to feel subtle. (not too cumbersome, not too insignificant)</li><li>Reinforces the antithetical behaviors ranged vs. melee in combat</li><li>It allows for individual specialization in squads (the packmule, heavy support grunt vs. the ninja, recon badarse)</li></ul>I would want it tipped more towards the subtle to insignificant side. It does wonders if it's something people just gossip about and has psychological presence about it. Perhaps there could even be researchable upgrades to reduce it and allow marines to carry more ammo.
<b>vote <!--coloro:#00DD00--><span style="color:#00DD00"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
<!--quoteo(post=1676137:date=Apr 18 2008, 12:17 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Apr 18 2008, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do we need to irritate players with armory powerbars or complicate commanding? There's a difference between giving ammo packs to 6 players in a competitive game versus 10-16 players on a pub. The resources required are 2-3 times greater.
Regenerating ammo? How do we define what rate of firing is "too careless" or "too conservative"? It's going to depend on the map, the alien team, and vary throughout the round.
I say keep it simple.
Or not: Create an "assault mode" that can be triggered by the commander (perhaps on an armory) which informs the team (with that annoying female voice) that they should proceed to the designated waypoint and that the armory is disabled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regeneration ammo is something Charlie has said he would never put in NS2 because it makes marines too close to aliens. (aliens do have regeneration, both in "ammo" (energy bar) and health & armor, and also have upgrades to improve those regenerations)
<b>vote <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Good point about the resource cost scalability increase with the number of players in a game, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this topic.
<!--quoteo(post=1676184:date=Apr 18 2008, 12:59 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PsympleJester @ Apr 18 2008, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someone has already suggested that kit bags be introduced into the game, so that instead of meds being dropped a kit bag can be dropped with a first-aid box or something in it and the designated marine heals his comrades.
Well if this was introduced maybe if could have say... 10 ammo packs in it and the person with the kit bag just switchs to kit and pressed left click to slowly heal like the wall units on HL1 or right click to give 1 ammo pack to someone.
(this would make it so Armourys could only be used to refill kit bags and not for individual use of marines)
Just an idea......
Thanks for reading,
Jester.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it could create some unique specialization in squads with a healer class. It was my impression that this was another differentiation factor between the marines and the aliens:
Commander heals fellow marines
Gorges heal fellow aliens
<b>vote <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
Good point about the resource cost scalability increase with the number of players in a game, but I'm not sure what that has to do with this topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if you were just quoting my post for fun or if you actually thought I was suggesting regenerating ammo. If it was the latter, you got the wrong post.
The point about the resources has to do with locallyunscene's powerbar suggestion of implementing powerbars on armories - the idea doesn't prevent armory humping and has the potential of causing problems with resource consumption from armory humping.
I still think that an armory lockdown option would work best for commanders. When commanders want marines to stop armory humping, they can disable to armory (select the armory and click a button that disables it but does not recycle it). When this happens, marines who try to hump the armory will be informed that the armory is disabled and that they should proceed to the assigned waypoint.