Unified Resource Model
CanadianWolverine
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What does it mean to you?</div>The Devs have expressed a desire for a Unified Resource Model:
<!--quoteo(post=1664127:date=Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We understand that having two different sides is important to that game. This is in fact one of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/11/9th_podcast" target="_blank">four pillars</a> of NS2 that we talked about previously.
Similar things can also be quite different. Starcraft is full of these, and I think the "tubes" we talked about in the podcast are a good example of that as well. You could say that phase gates and the tubes are the same because they allow players to move between two points on the map quickly. However, they are also different:<ul><li>Travel between the two ends of the tubes will not be instantaneous</li><li>Both sides can use the tubes</li><li>There is an actual gameplay space between the ends of the tube where players can fight, etc.</li><li>Multiple players can travel through (and emerge from) a tube at the same time</li><li>The tubes will be difficult to destroy</li></ul>We think of the alien "commander" the same way. <b> The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast)</b> and provide support for the other players. Outside of that description, they may act totally differently. That's almost what the Gorge does in NS, except the resource model is a bit wonky (and no we're not removing the Gorge in NS2). Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.
We enjoy reading your feedback, so keep it up!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664131:date=Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I hear you and definitely agree. Let me be clear that the addition of the alien commander isn't definite (we must try it and see if it's better) and we would still be completely focused on keeping the teams unique. That is never going away. <b>Even if the resource model needs to be unified between the two sides</b>, we're not going to see the same tech on both sides with a different skin. The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!
Think of it like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 - the basic resource model is the same but the sides are totally different. There can even be differences in how resources are gathered, but the asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly. An alien Comm could let us really go crazy adding new weapons, abilities and lifeforms later without it breaking the entire system (which in NS1 is quite fragile).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Development Blog Update - 14th Podcast Transcript (thank you afratnikov)
ALIEN COMMANDER
Charlie: You want to talk about this idea?
Max: Well the first thing we should… Specifically when I said people have overlooked stuff: maybe we haven’t explicitly said it about the idea of an alien commander
Charlie: yeah we haven’t said that
Max: Well I think ... Oh I figured we had to say that is that what you wanted to say?
Charlie: I guess so, yeah that’s probably true. Oops!
Max: You just shot me a dirty look there
Charlie: No I didn’t – oh, I didn’t mean to. It’s fine.
Max: Yeah, that’s an idea we’re considering – strongly considering
<b>Charlie: Yeah. I could say it’s pretty much definite. Well actually we shouldn’t say that. We think the aliens need a commander for balance, basically to unify the resource model. But I guess we can’t really know until we play test it - for sure.</b>
Max: Final subject to change
Charlie: yes, that’s a good phrase. So, once aliens have commander that lets us do some really cool things like: You want to tell them this idea? – the canals?
Max: Go ahead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something I think we need to discuss, as it seems there are a lot of different ideas as to just what a <b>Unified Resource Model</b> means. The best example we have for definition is from the Devs themselves, as Max points out:
" The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast) "
So, from this I can gather that both sides have Team Resources. This differs from NS1, where Kharaa had Individual Resources. Interestingly enough, the Devs have also made mention of the Marines purchasing their own equipment, which suggests to me that they have the means to do so, this could possibly be like the Kharaa of NS1, who were able to purchase their own upgrades from the chambers and life forms, essentially their equipment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Development Blog Update - 7th Podcast Transcript (thank you obsid)
Max: Well, one thing that we kind’ve mentioned on the blog is allowing player to essentially purchase weapons, almost like a counterstrike kind’ve thing.
Charlie: Right.
Max: Um, you know, they wouldn’t be able to purchase anything, they would still be tied to the commander. In terms of the commander would research new technologies, and resources also factor into there, but the guy on the ground would have a lot more flexibility in choosing, ok I really like working with the shotgun so I’m gonna get that. Or, um, you know that kind of thing.
Charlie: And the key here being that the commander would make the strategic decision that they wanna, like, devote their resources towards like, say shotguns, or, I dunno, laser or weapons or, you know, sniper, not that those things are gonna go in, but say flamethrowers, and then the marines on the ground actually purchase the flamethrowers. So that way the commander does the strategy and the person on the ground still choose their play style. Which I hope will work pretty well.
Max: Yeah, so decoupling that a little bit, while still keeping relevant, making it so their enjoyment is not tied quite as tightly to the...
Charlie: Right, right.
Max: Um, and actually they talk about the,
Charlie: You won’t be begging the comm for a shotgun anymore.
Max: Right.
Charlie: The classic thing.
Max: So, giving people on both sides, actually, more they can do is the other way of making sure that it’s fun for everyone. So now the players can get the weapons that they want more often, and to trade off, like, that historically was a role that commander would do, doling out weapons. So we’re taking something away from the commander there, and to compensate that we want to add more stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting stuff.
It seems to me that before we can proceed on a number of ideas, we should be clear on just what this entails and what limitations there are, then we can form ideas that work within the proposed frame work, so that our own ideas could plausibly be added without breaking the model and keeping a semblance of balance between the two opposing sides, however organic that may be in responding to each other's strengths and weaknesses within two very different experiences aka asymmetrical game play.
What are your: Thoughts, reactions, ideas, concerns, speculation?
<!--quoteo(post=1664127:date=Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 15 2007, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We understand that having two different sides is important to that game. This is in fact one of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/11/9th_podcast" target="_blank">four pillars</a> of NS2 that we talked about previously.
Similar things can also be quite different. Starcraft is full of these, and I think the "tubes" we talked about in the podcast are a good example of that as well. You could say that phase gates and the tubes are the same because they allow players to move between two points on the map quickly. However, they are also different:<ul><li>Travel between the two ends of the tubes will not be instantaneous</li><li>Both sides can use the tubes</li><li>There is an actual gameplay space between the ends of the tube where players can fight, etc.</li><li>Multiple players can travel through (and emerge from) a tube at the same time</li><li>The tubes will be difficult to destroy</li></ul>We think of the alien "commander" the same way. <b> The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast)</b> and provide support for the other players. Outside of that description, they may act totally differently. That's almost what the Gorge does in NS, except the resource model is a bit wonky (and no we're not removing the Gorge in NS2). Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.
We enjoy reading your feedback, so keep it up!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664131:date=Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Dec 15 2007, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah I hear you and definitely agree. Let me be clear that the addition of the alien commander isn't definite (we must try it and see if it's better) and we would still be completely focused on keeping the teams unique. That is never going away. <b>Even if the resource model needs to be unified between the two sides</b>, we're not going to see the same tech on both sides with a different skin. The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!
Think of it like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 - the basic resource model is the same but the sides are totally different. There can even be differences in how resources are gathered, but the asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly. An alien Comm could let us really go crazy adding new weapons, abilities and lifeforms later without it breaking the entire system (which in NS1 is quite fragile).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Development Blog Update - 14th Podcast Transcript (thank you afratnikov)
ALIEN COMMANDER
Charlie: You want to talk about this idea?
Max: Well the first thing we should… Specifically when I said people have overlooked stuff: maybe we haven’t explicitly said it about the idea of an alien commander
Charlie: yeah we haven’t said that
Max: Well I think ... Oh I figured we had to say that is that what you wanted to say?
Charlie: I guess so, yeah that’s probably true. Oops!
Max: You just shot me a dirty look there
Charlie: No I didn’t – oh, I didn’t mean to. It’s fine.
Max: Yeah, that’s an idea we’re considering – strongly considering
<b>Charlie: Yeah. I could say it’s pretty much definite. Well actually we shouldn’t say that. We think the aliens need a commander for balance, basically to unify the resource model. But I guess we can’t really know until we play test it - for sure.</b>
Max: Final subject to change
Charlie: yes, that’s a good phrase. So, once aliens have commander that lets us do some really cool things like: You want to tell them this idea? – the canals?
Max: Go ahead<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is something I think we need to discuss, as it seems there are a lot of different ideas as to just what a <b>Unified Resource Model</b> means. The best example we have for definition is from the Devs themselves, as Max points out:
" The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast) "
So, from this I can gather that both sides have Team Resources. This differs from NS1, where Kharaa had Individual Resources. Interestingly enough, the Devs have also made mention of the Marines purchasing their own equipment, which suggests to me that they have the means to do so, this could possibly be like the Kharaa of NS1, who were able to purchase their own upgrades from the chambers and life forms, essentially their equipment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Development Blog Update - 7th Podcast Transcript (thank you obsid)
Max: Well, one thing that we kind’ve mentioned on the blog is allowing player to essentially purchase weapons, almost like a counterstrike kind’ve thing.
Charlie: Right.
Max: Um, you know, they wouldn’t be able to purchase anything, they would still be tied to the commander. In terms of the commander would research new technologies, and resources also factor into there, but the guy on the ground would have a lot more flexibility in choosing, ok I really like working with the shotgun so I’m gonna get that. Or, um, you know that kind of thing.
Charlie: And the key here being that the commander would make the strategic decision that they wanna, like, devote their resources towards like, say shotguns, or, I dunno, laser or weapons or, you know, sniper, not that those things are gonna go in, but say flamethrowers, and then the marines on the ground actually purchase the flamethrowers. So that way the commander does the strategy and the person on the ground still choose their play style. Which I hope will work pretty well.
Max: Yeah, so decoupling that a little bit, while still keeping relevant, making it so their enjoyment is not tied quite as tightly to the...
Charlie: Right, right.
Max: Um, and actually they talk about the,
Charlie: You won’t be begging the comm for a shotgun anymore.
Max: Right.
Charlie: The classic thing.
Max: So, giving people on both sides, actually, more they can do is the other way of making sure that it’s fun for everyone. So now the players can get the weapons that they want more often, and to trade off, like, that historically was a role that commander would do, doling out weapons. So we’re taking something away from the commander there, and to compensate that we want to add more stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting stuff.
It seems to me that before we can proceed on a number of ideas, we should be clear on just what this entails and what limitations there are, then we can form ideas that work within the proposed frame work, so that our own ideas could plausibly be added without breaking the model and keeping a semblance of balance between the two opposing sides, however organic that may be in responding to each other's strengths and weaknesses within two very different experiences aka asymmetrical game play.
What are your: Thoughts, reactions, ideas, concerns, speculation?
Comments
A) There are only Team Resources
B) There are only Individual Resources
C) There are Shared Resources = A + B , also known as Two Resource Pools
To add to the confusion, there is even discussion on what is a resource. There is a variation of different resource types, in combination with A, B, or C. Here are some suggestions I have seen as to what those resources could be:
a) map material component
b) credit budget
c) federal currency
d) score/experience points
e) generated energy
f) game mechanic timers
g) variations and combinations of the above
Which resource model are you thinking of when you see Unified Resource Model?
maybe there will be 2 resource types also <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
nanite sludge like in ns1 and but perhaps also electricity or just area requisition points, two types of resource towers perhaps. the first resource will mainly give the commanders res to the usual commander things, but the 2nd res will give used more so for the player abilities and weapons.
like your typical rts.
<i>–verb (used with object), verb (used without object),</i> -<b>fied</b>, -<b>fy·ing</b>.
to make or become a single unit; unite: <i>to unify conflicting theories; to unify a country. </i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>a single unit</i> : One.
One resource(?). One pool.
edit: though now that I think on it, the hints given by the devs ("Think of it like Starcraft or Warcraft") doesn't necessarily suggest <b>one resource</b> <i>(though I believe for the sake of simplicity and staying true to NS, they will keep a single resource)</i>, but it does suggest <b>one pool</b>, and <i>apparently</i> the devs have said that it will be spent by <b>one player</b> (from the quotes in the first post). Somewhat worrying.
<!--QuoteBegin-CanadianWolverine+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->c) federal currency<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this the 'representative currency' idea I suggested? If so, I'll go with that one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I read what the Devs quotes differently, as the Marines and Kharaa both using the same system, so instead of NS1's Individual Resources (Kharaa) VS Team Resources (Marines), rather A, B, C or some type I haven't seen mentioned in the forums yet.
Something I am wondering about as well, why was the 2 different resource models in NS1 hard to balance against each other? How would having just one resource model be different?
A) There are only Team Resources
B) There are only Individual Resources
C) There are Shared Resources = A + B , also known as Two Resource Pools
To add to the confusion, there is even discussion on what is a resource. There is a variation of different resource types, in combination with A, B, or C. Here are some suggestions I have seen as to what those resources could be:
a) map material component
b) credit budget
c) federal currency
d) score/experience points
e) generated energy
f) game mechanic timers
g) variations and combinations of the above
Which resource model are you thinking of when you see Unified Resource Model?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Labor (number of units), Unit Strength (a composite of individual skill and teamworking in this game, esp. teamwork), Tech (research/upgrades), the so called "resources" or "res" (used to buy tech), and the critical yet oft forgotten resource -- time.
<i>One spender/manager.</i> <b>One pool.</b>
(And my assumption is that there will be <i>[the_x5 raises a good point; but I'm talking about what you would call 'natural resources' or 'commodities']</i> one unique resource - res; I don't think adding a new resource at this point would be very smart.)
<!--QuoteBegin-CanadianWolverine+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Something I am wondering about as well, why was the 2 different resource models in NS1 hard to balance against each other? How would having just one resource model be different?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First I'll just quote Flayra:
<!--QuoteBegin-Flayra+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but the asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To elaborate, it's the way that the Kharaa had their resources distributed around the team to individual pools (which drastically affected the aliens' play, for example buildings and higher level lifeforms took longer to achieve at higher server sizes, while the Marines had no such issues); while the marines had a single pool managed by a single player. The devs <b>had to</b> balance it for a certain server size - which was 6v6 - because of the asymmetry. If the resource models on both sides are symmetrical, they worry less about resource balance, and can get right down to adding and testing the important features they want to put in; and they're assured that the resources will be balanced on all server sizes - from as small as 3v3 to as large as 15v15.
edit: Though it's still vague about how Aliens achieve higher lifeforms, and how marines get their weapons and/or equipment - since those are <b>individual</b> choices.
edit: Flayra's explanation:
<!--QuoteBegin-afratnikov: UW Podcast #16 transcript+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov: UW Podcast #16 transcript)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Team size balance and Resource model</b>
Charlie: And team size and balance. So the question is: is NS2 going to be balanced like NS1? Well, NS1 was balanced for 6v6, and will NS2 be the same? And that thankfully is not the case. Let’s see, ok, how do I describe this? The new resource model, which I don’t want to describe yet, because I don’t know if it will work, that will actually allow the economy to be the same at all levels. The way it worked in NS1, how the resources were split up among the alien team, the team size actually affected the flow of resources into your teammates. So that actually totally changed the pace of the game and I think there are some other reasons. The resources for aliens were divided among many pools instead of the marines, where it was all in one pool, then you could fall below a threshold of technology, you fall below a threshold that you need, a minimum threshold, more often. Does that make any sense? It’s really hard to describe. If it costs 10 resources to build something and you have 10 among the whole team, but not among any one person, then you can’t buy that thing, whereas on the marine side, you could buy that thing. And if that’s a resources tower, then the aliens can no longer get resources. So it kind of had all these invisible boundaries all over the place in NS1 and so I think that will all be fixed for 2. So, the game will not be balanced for one particular team size, and it should work for all team sizes, probably anywhere from 2v2 to 16v16. And let’s see what else we have here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think creating identical resource models for both teams would take out most of the strategy out of NS. In the nutshell, what you're suggesting is making aliens and marines as similar as possible. Well, maybe, while you're at it, just make it Marines vs Marines. It will be balance-proof - but freaking boring. If anything, they should make marines and aliens even more different. I think there is a strong correlation between strategy and balance. With strategy, you are able to SHIFT the balance in your favor and vice versa. That's what makes games fun in the first place. You take that out, it becomes a typical death match. Not to be completely blinded, I see what your concern is. I imagine there are other options to resolve this issue, perhaps awarding aliens more resources per kill which would be highly dependent of the alien team size. For example, alien teams of 4 people or less would randomly get 1-2 res per kill, 5-10 player teams would get 1-3 res, and 11-16 player teams would get 1-4 or 2-4 resources. Obviously, this isn't the only solution, but it is plausible and should mildly compensate for the resource deficiency in big team matches. Here is another idea, once an alien team size reaches a certain threshold, say 12 players, all alien team members who quit the game (People leaving is inevitable and that's where Kharaa loses lots of res) would leave their resources behind which would be equally distributed among the remaining players in the game. Not enough resources to give aliens a huge resource boost, but enough to compensate for the slow resource harvesting speed.
Also, two teams can be very different and have the same resource model, just look at how much variety there is in Starcraft. There was still plenty of strategy there even though each side had Team Resources. Imagine how Zerg would play if each unit had the resources divided up equally among them and stored on them, then having to select each one individually to spend their resources <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> If anything, I am guessing the Unknown World's Devs will go for a combination of what we know from NS1 of the Kharaa and Marine resource models.
I reckon it's pretty clear already. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
When I was playing this game regularly I could become any lifeform and do pretty good. But after coming back after almost a year, I have found that I'm a newb again. So me going fade generally ends up being a waste of 50 res. The same with onos.
Forcing people is a bad thing. Expically if its one of the major draws on being alien.
Giving marines the options to get a gun they want is a good thing. But the issue is balance. Will that be a sperate pool that will be "dumped" into at the commanders will.
I think people are still wondering what the role of an alien commander will be. I mean in all honesty, we are thinking of all the nightmarish games in witch a commander screwed everything up.
So right now its the lack of infomation that is screwing everyone up here.
Honestly from what the devs have been saying is that the Unified Resource model is to make it so the game is balanced at 4v4 as it is at 15v15.
the true is:
why dont know what is jet in or not or why and etc
i dont like the idea about the alien Comm (ok.. i hate it )
but two res pools can be good
a suggestion
make player res = like ns1
and a second res pool
the second can be used only be gorges
its for buildings and such
players can give theyre res to the build res
the gorges use this res from this pool to build cambers
hives can only be build be theyre personal res
and gorges can give 10 personal res to a other gorge
in short
1. personal res -> can go to gorge res
like in NS1 -> evolve etc..
gorges and skulks can give it to other gorges
only way to build hive
2.gorge res -> cant go back to personal
use gorges to build cambers -> cant be used to build hive
is the global res for all gorges