Gameplay Element
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Projectile Weapons</div>There are three fundamentally unique methods of weapon design in FPS games.
1. Melee
2. Projection
3. Projectile
NS really only makes uses of the first two right now on marines, saving spit and acid rocket for the aliens. I'm not counting umbra or spore because while they fall under the category of Projectile, they are AoE based, rather than having a bullet+spread which is the scope of what I'm referring to (ie a rocket launcher).
Projection weapons are by far the easiest to hit with, and they tend to do the least damage per hit because of this, take the LMG or pistol for instance. These high powered assault weapons are a fundamental core element of NS, but are not what I'm referring to in this post.
What I actually am suggesting is not weapons-based, but rather a situation. Consider the following:
On Veil, in System Waypointing, an arbitrary alien arrives out of the passage toward cargo. At the same time a marine pressure team of 3 players walks in from capping Sub.
The arbitrary alien design has an ability that shields it from most Projection weapons, such as the LMG and pistol. Consider the Borg as an example. The first two marines fire at it futilely as its shield deflects their attacks (perhaps spending adrenaline in place of health).
The third marine, by class choice at the start of the game or (if you hate the idea of starting classes, which I may actually agree with) by a purchase from the armory, fires a Projectile weapon (reasonably fast rate of fire, similar to spit) which completely ignores and thereby penetrates the arbitrary alien's shield.
The alien at this point has an interesting situation on his hands, and one I would consider playtesting. He's fairly invulnerable to two of the marines for the time being, but he has an avoidable but nevertheless daunting array of damage coming his way. He can choose to tank the damage and attack, attempt to dodge the damage (which is what I'm getting at with this post) or simply retreat.
I think this adds to the strategy of the game, while creating what I would consider to be a very skill oriented, almost matrix-esque minigame for the aliens and a new skill for the marines to learn (aiming projectile weapons).
You could take this gameplay element to any extreme, allowing the alien to catch the shots and redirect them (since we're now on Source) or implement a system where the marine could take the reflected shot and redirect it again, or any number of other silly notions that would come to mind.
The point is the gameplay elements themselves, while very different from what we have now, seem to me to be basically sound if they were implemented intelligently. The trick to remember is not that there are new guns or new alien defense mechanisms, but that projectile weapons are specifically designed to be armor-piercing as a balancing mechanic for the fact that projectile weapons are more difficult to use than projection damage systems.
What are your thoughts?
PS: I realize the "borg shield" is completely out of flavor for the aliens, please attempt to see the idea behind it rather than just the mental image of bullets bouncing off of alien force fields.
1. Melee
2. Projection
3. Projectile
NS really only makes uses of the first two right now on marines, saving spit and acid rocket for the aliens. I'm not counting umbra or spore because while they fall under the category of Projectile, they are AoE based, rather than having a bullet+spread which is the scope of what I'm referring to (ie a rocket launcher).
Projection weapons are by far the easiest to hit with, and they tend to do the least damage per hit because of this, take the LMG or pistol for instance. These high powered assault weapons are a fundamental core element of NS, but are not what I'm referring to in this post.
What I actually am suggesting is not weapons-based, but rather a situation. Consider the following:
On Veil, in System Waypointing, an arbitrary alien arrives out of the passage toward cargo. At the same time a marine pressure team of 3 players walks in from capping Sub.
The arbitrary alien design has an ability that shields it from most Projection weapons, such as the LMG and pistol. Consider the Borg as an example. The first two marines fire at it futilely as its shield deflects their attacks (perhaps spending adrenaline in place of health).
The third marine, by class choice at the start of the game or (if you hate the idea of starting classes, which I may actually agree with) by a purchase from the armory, fires a Projectile weapon (reasonably fast rate of fire, similar to spit) which completely ignores and thereby penetrates the arbitrary alien's shield.
The alien at this point has an interesting situation on his hands, and one I would consider playtesting. He's fairly invulnerable to two of the marines for the time being, but he has an avoidable but nevertheless daunting array of damage coming his way. He can choose to tank the damage and attack, attempt to dodge the damage (which is what I'm getting at with this post) or simply retreat.
I think this adds to the strategy of the game, while creating what I would consider to be a very skill oriented, almost matrix-esque minigame for the aliens and a new skill for the marines to learn (aiming projectile weapons).
You could take this gameplay element to any extreme, allowing the alien to catch the shots and redirect them (since we're now on Source) or implement a system where the marine could take the reflected shot and redirect it again, or any number of other silly notions that would come to mind.
The point is the gameplay elements themselves, while very different from what we have now, seem to me to be basically sound if they were implemented intelligently. The trick to remember is not that there are new guns or new alien defense mechanisms, but that projectile weapons are specifically designed to be armor-piercing as a balancing mechanic for the fact that projectile weapons are more difficult to use than projection damage systems.
What are your thoughts?
PS: I realize the "borg shield" is completely out of flavor for the aliens, please attempt to see the idea behind it rather than just the mental image of bullets bouncing off of alien force fields.
Comments
Should is too strong a word. This is a suggestion, not an ultimatum.
I'm saying that pistol and LMG are already what I'm classifying as Projection weapons, and that in NS2, it may prove to be good gameplay to create a class, or upgrade, or buff, or whatever else, which stops Projections in some mechanic (such as an adrenaline shield) and then implement Projectiles solely for the purpose of creating a gameplay element whereby dodging projectiles becomes a more common part of alien gameplay, with the balance consideration that a shield is countered by stronger, slower "slug" type weapons, instead of simply misleading marine aim with skilled movement.
I think it would work out to be synergistic in terms of gameplay as well as the more broad strategic elements.
In any case, the entire post is an excuse for implementing that mechanic (which I'm not saying should or shouldn't be added until it was tested, but what I am saying is that it <i>should</i> be put into a playtest at least once to check it out), nothing more.
Does that answer the question?
I can think that this kind of system would have the potential of complicating things a lot for the average player - now you'll have creatures that are pretty much invulnerable to a type of attack (or at least very close to it, if I am reading this properly). It may inspire teamwork, but I fear that it may be appealing to a smaller niche of gamers than as it is right now.
This is not necessarily a bad idea, but complicated gameplay is not very popular for the majority of gamers. As a player, I wouldn't mind trying it myself - but I can't speak for the masses and that's what determines the revenue of a game, which is more important than value these days.
projectile (of varying speeds/arcs), eg. gl, spit, acid rocket, bile
hit scan, eg. sg, pistol, parasite
tracking, eg. lmg, hmg
i don't really agree that aliens should be invincible to some types but by just changing the damage or the effectiveness of marine weapons it is more interesting to have a range of weapon types available for use. that being said, it may even better to not give marines projectile weapons and instead have them as an alien-only type.
If anything, this would probably fit with Flayra's new turtling idea for gorges. I believe it was him who mentioned gorges having the ability to curl up and harden a bit, to resist damage for a certain amount of time or such.
A counter to that would be pretty cool, especially if it was low-tech. Battles would just be more awesome with projectile beams (finite beams, like a few feet long... even Star Wars-ey) flying all around. Perhaps higher damage, slightly low rate of fire, with a constantly recharging battery. It could even be a low-cost weapon, or a starting 'class' for marines should classes be implemented to avoid LMG only.
projectile (of varying speeds/arcs), eg. gl, spit, acid rocket, bile
hit scan, eg. sg, pistol, parasite
tracking, eg. lmg, hmg<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, this makes a lot more sense to me. I've never been a big fan of resistances in FPS games, it's not very fun to shoot a weapon ineffectively. That said, I agree with <b>Sarisel</b>.
That would be quite interesting and the additional complication would be entirely avoidable. However, starting weapons should always be effective in all cases.
I'm glad you guys see his is just looking to discuss an idea already put forward by the Devs themselves.
This is essentially paper / rock / scissors, but with the added flavor that starting weapons do it all but poorly and you also have ranged vs melee, with supporting abilities on both sides, in addition to the strategic RTS taking up the whole map!
Ahhh, if I play an NS2 with that in it, I will think I have died and gone to gaming heaven.
Such a cool idea, I really want there to be a ton of different weapons for both sides.
You know how marines pick up a weapon, and Kharaa just have it attached to them constantly? I wonder how that could be worked with in this as well.
Personally, I love paper rock scissors ( ro sham bo? ) and anything of its kind in my humble opinion promotes team work through combined arms, which is what IMHO NS1 already does and I just want more of that in NS2.
Did you see one post where it summarized the conflict as nature vs industrial? Well, personally, I would say it is BIOLOGICAL Vs CYBERNETIC, I hope that is very much considered into the different experiences on each team and the possible ways in which they could both improve. For the Kharaa, I would look to examples from nature and the six senses: psychic, taste, smell, touch (pressure), sight, and feel (heat). For the Marines, I would hope for much more in the way of androids, robots, cyborgs, and anything else influenced by a human life filled with nano-bots.
Storywise is doesn't seem to make a lick of sense why in a universe where the marines have phase tech, re-chargeable / re-fueling jet packs, mech armor suits, nanobot tech, and swiss army knife welders, that they don't have access to energy blades, short swords, long swords, shields (physical and energy), grappling mag hooks, auto-shotties, grenade lauchers with clips, rotating barrel HMGs, RPGs, TOWs, underwater / space suits, lasers / phasers / energy weapons, cloaking tech, and chainsaws.
There is a ton of stuff the marines aren't using, the story / atmosphere side of me wonders why it is the case, and the gameplay side of me wishes it were possible without wrecking the fun of playing the Kharaa - which is a balancing issue, yes? A tweaking of cost and damage type variables and limitations on uses, like carry limits: so not insurmountable.
More weapons for both sides and balanced, promoting team work. Mmm, that's good gameplay!