Active Camouflage (AC) Suit
StixNStonz
Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">A detailed take on an old idea</div>Stemming from <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=103380" target="_blank"><u>this thread</u></a>, I felt that some kind of active camouflage could really add to the NS experience. So here's a detailed approach to a new piece of equipment: The AC Suit.
Picture this:
-Requires the AA (not proto)
-Costs 10 res and is dropped like HA/JP
-The armor levels are 20, 30, 40, 50 (so even with A1 its still just a para-bite-bite, at A2 its 3 bites for a skulk, and at A3 its equivalent to A1)
-The player can only hold an LMG, SG, and welder (no 'bigger guns')
-Parasite damage is still dealt, but the para effect is not shown
-Still shows up in SC range
-Should the 'sniffing' ability be given to the skulk in NS2, the sniff would still see the player
-Footsteps are quieted by 50%
-When running, the player is 50% transparent
-When walking, 75%
-When immobile for more than 2 seconds, 95%.
-When firing, turns 20% transparent (so 80% visible) for 3 seconds after the last shot
Basically this would create a purely awesome Ninja Suit.
Roles:
-Ninja PGs
-Scouting
-'Surgical strikes' on chambers or nodes (if he's equipped with an SG)
Given that he never turns completely invisible, he'd still have to pick his positions for hiding when aliens run by. From a distance, he would be hard to see when walking, but a keen eye would catch it.
Given the balancing factor of the low armor but also the relatively low cost of the suit (same as a JP), it would likely be a niche role compared to a res-determined role. What i mean is, with HA, usually the team gets suited up continually as the res comes in. With JP, its somewhat along the same lines, but often the better players are the only ones who get suited up, unless the comm has tons of res (since JPs are so easy to die with).
The AC suit would take the JP-like effect even further; only players who can convince the comm that they can Ninja would get the suit. The suit actually lowers the players' combat efficiency, thats the beauty of it. By being worse at combat, they gain significantly in stealth. As such, a good ninja with the AC suit would be able to get a sneaky PG up more easily, take out nodes, sneak up on a gorgy, etc.
Thoughts?
Picture this:
-Requires the AA (not proto)
-Costs 10 res and is dropped like HA/JP
-The armor levels are 20, 30, 40, 50 (so even with A1 its still just a para-bite-bite, at A2 its 3 bites for a skulk, and at A3 its equivalent to A1)
-The player can only hold an LMG, SG, and welder (no 'bigger guns')
-Parasite damage is still dealt, but the para effect is not shown
-Still shows up in SC range
-Should the 'sniffing' ability be given to the skulk in NS2, the sniff would still see the player
-Footsteps are quieted by 50%
-When running, the player is 50% transparent
-When walking, 75%
-When immobile for more than 2 seconds, 95%.
-When firing, turns 20% transparent (so 80% visible) for 3 seconds after the last shot
Basically this would create a purely awesome Ninja Suit.
Roles:
-Ninja PGs
-Scouting
-'Surgical strikes' on chambers or nodes (if he's equipped with an SG)
Given that he never turns completely invisible, he'd still have to pick his positions for hiding when aliens run by. From a distance, he would be hard to see when walking, but a keen eye would catch it.
Given the balancing factor of the low armor but also the relatively low cost of the suit (same as a JP), it would likely be a niche role compared to a res-determined role. What i mean is, with HA, usually the team gets suited up continually as the res comes in. With JP, its somewhat along the same lines, but often the better players are the only ones who get suited up, unless the comm has tons of res (since JPs are so easy to die with).
The AC suit would take the JP-like effect even further; only players who can convince the comm that they can Ninja would get the suit. The suit actually lowers the players' combat efficiency, thats the beauty of it. By being worse at combat, they gain significantly in stealth. As such, a good ninja with the AC suit would be able to get a sneaky PG up more easily, take out nodes, sneak up on a gorgy, etc.
Thoughts?
Comments
I like it, but I would remove even more of the ranged weapons, like the shotgun and light machine gun.
In fact, I would want the Active Camoflage suit to also promote acrobatic aka Free Running (Parkour) like abilities.
I think the true point of this type of armor is to adopt to a play style, the kind of player who likes to bunny hop, and "ninja" a hive for their Commander and team. The ultimate scout, the piss poor attacker to balance things but used effectively, it can change the game. Think of it like a combination of Scout and Spy from Team Fortress 2, but with no back stab, and no scatter gun (shot gun). Toss in animations that make bunny hopping more look like flips, rolls, wall jumping, dives, slides... It would look so friggin sweet and appeal to that kind of gamer.
The point of such a armor aka class would be run and hide, scout and strike a blow from behind enemy lines, commando like.
Perhaps give the armor the ability to access C4-ish weaponry, at destructive blow to Kharaa infestation structures (except the hive) which is set on a timer and can clear an area of Dynamic Infestation just big enough to get a phase gate to get Flame marines in to clear even more Dynamic Infestation.
How about giving players who drop their main weapon with AC a big speed boost, higher jumps, and limited wallwalking? Say 5 seconds of wallwalk so they could cling to the ceiling and avoid a passing onos. If they choose to keep their primary weapon they get no speed boost and lose the wallwalking ability, forcing them to ninja like a traditional light marine.
Frankly, if this kind of idea were implemented, I think NS2 would suddenly gain a WHOLE lot of cool factor. In-game im sure not many comms would spring for many AC suits, but everyone would get to try em out at least a few times. And it would just be SO COOL.
Still, somehow it just doesn't seem to fit into the Marine-Alien struggle: the aliens should be the only ones ambushing an cloaking. I would like them expanding ninja gamplay though. I thought they could do it, by allowing quieter+faster movement when no primary weapon is in inventory.
Also, and this is just a thought... Instead of making them only use a pistol, how about they get some sort of shocker built into the suit as well? Something that lets them stun the target and make a gettaway. That way they are still without a strong weapon, but not as vulnerable as that would make a normal marine (with cloaking powers...)
Secondary thought to that - How about limiting their ammo severely on weapons like LMG/SG? Make them extremely last resort.
...
In retrospect, I like the second idea more.
That probably above anything else on the subtle side of engine mechanics (barring a skill-based movement system) is what I would want to see implemented in NS2 if at all possible.
Look at the Active Camouflage of Halo, or many of the games that use it. Those players are really only noticeable when they're moving; if they're not, people almost never notice them.
I do think that these players would still need access to at least the lmg/sg. Its a good point brought up; the ammo could be limited to one or two extra clips.
But this is a PROTO TECH guys. And this suit costs 10 res, and lowers the marine's armor substantially. If he's seen, there's a damn good chance hes gonna die, especially since much of the time the comm wouldn't give him an SG as well (since that would double the cost of the marine). So generally these marines will only have an LMG, and this will be during the later game, hence a lot of lifeforms around, and a good chance of SC. That marine needs the option of a shotgun.
The wallwalk ability is up for debate. I think the suit would already add a whole ton of cool factor to the game... adding some restrained wallwalking would bolster that even more. But if would have to be carefully done.
The reason: With increased mobility, the Max Payne action star movement, not wall walking but those backward/sideways flips you sometimes see where it looks like the run up or sideways on a wall, heck, even if you gave him the mag hook or mag boots and gauntlets for "wall sticky", it should still play different than the skulk in practice. Ack, I went tangent again, I keep imagining all the cool moments by being a covert unit for the marines.
The reason (again): With increased mobility the pistol becomes a much stronger weapon. Being a target that is harder to close to melee with makes it extremely tough on some opponents, like skulk or onos. But with others, who have ranged area affects (lerk, gorge) or can hunt the hunter (fade, especially if they get a Portal gun where the portals are invisible to the marines), they would just be such an easy kill it would be a joke.
The point will be that a marine in this suit would have to play like a skulk who can die faster, has worse melee, and can't even cloak as good as the enemy. I would think this suit would be rarely dropped because you would be making a noob that much weaker, but in the right hands it would produce "Wow" moments and allow for some seriously cool strategies. Heh, just thinking about it, I could see lerks accidentally killing these guys just by spraying spores everywhere but in the right hands I could see this turning the tide of battles and creating a lot tension on the Kharaa side even when they have a "3 hive and Onos (Onii) seiging the marines last stand" situation equivalent in NS2.
So, in the original plan, the marine would still play much like the current Ninja, except he would have a cloaking advantage. The concept of adding wallwalk, ninja jumps, grappling hooks, extra speed, or whatever, are all completely afterthoughts that people are now taking as part of the proposal. They are NOT, because you would maybe only be able to add in one of them while maintaining balance; add in both wallwalk AND speed, etc, and then you WOULD have to remove the sg capability or such.
Try to simply consider the original concept first. Given those parameters, would the tech be a feasible, balanced addition?
If they did add wallwalk they should make it so that you can't stay attached for more than 5 seconds, longer if you build up speed and run along the wall.
It would be kind of ridiculous to see a marine shooting whilst running along a wall, so I'd say the only weapon they should be able to use while wallwalking is the hand grenade. It'd be pretty sweet to climb up through a vent, drop a grenade on a skulk, then go back into the other room and drop off the ceiling.
Also, skulks' perspective doesn't change as they climb. They're born instinctively knowing how to do it. But the wallwalking marine's perspective should rotate as he changes orientation, like the alien in Aliens vs. Predator 2. If you haven't played that game, what this means is that if you are clinging to the ceiling your view is upside down and you have to look up with the mouse to look down at the floor.
Really my main inspiration for suggesting a limited wallwalk came from those cloaking guys in F.E.A.R. They were pretty cool and added a lot to the atmosphere, it's a shame you encounter so few in that game.
I didn't like the original concept, so I changed the parameters. A cloaking, quieter marine with a shot gun? Yuck. Simply, within those parameters, In My Humble Opinion, its a terrible idea and my response would be "Leave cloaking to the Kharaa".
But if you want to really gear a set of armor towards being the type of player who has fun doing a "ninja" on a hive, or heck, even those who get a kick out of bouncing all over the map faster than their fellow marine, you have to take it way further than giving marines the ability to cloak.
You need to really expand this idea, take to like how Starcraft used Ghosts or how Predators play - meaning, make them geared toward their human specialization ... So, my take on making a marine cloaked unique in Natural Selection 2 was to take away a lot of their ranged power, even close ranged power, and give them Max Payne + Splinter Cell. There you go, now you have a fun to play specialist "ninja", that's for dead certain.
Whats wrong with a cloaking, quieter marine? 10 res is a fairly pricey cost for that, especially when this is a proto tech, hence in lou of JPs or HA. Add in a shotgun and sure, he can do some damage... but unless he has armor 2, he'll be two-shotted by a fade. This ninja is WEAK, and will likely rarely even see a shotgun, since that would be doubling the res put into him (not to mention the fact that due to the gameplay type, the shotgun would almost certainly be dropped away from the team and not be recycled).
Again, yes, The Specialist mod, Max Payne, etc are awesome games, but thats just too extreme and extravagant to be viable as a new addition. In my opinion at least.
But I need to disagree with you on something, if it has been done before and without LUA at that, I am sure it can be done fairly efficiently and effectively for Natural Selection 2. Unknown Worlds has set themselves up with a great system for trying out new ideas and balancing ideas within a stable framework. Heck, its going to be a boon to the NS2 mod community. I really do think it would not be half as hard as you suggest to implement, especially when you stand to gain so much by catering to play styles that gamers enjoy. Just look at all the popularity NS1 gained by being able to appeal to strategy gamers at the same time as melee gamers, speed shooter gamers, stealth gamers, team death match, and rpg support role gamers!
I really, really want to play with "ninj-a-rines" as action acrobats and 'behind-enemy-lines' specialists, if you couldn't tell.
Think if a team of marines has this and all of them go poof, and aliens are sitting there wondering whats going on. Not going to go into specifics on the idea itself, never really helps to talk about %'s.
I don't think this idea has or ever will fit the Marine theme of gritty steroid pumped mean green alien killing machines. Aliens are more tuned with the organic areas around them and have other ways to 'see' the marines, building something dedicated to cloaking for the marines is just a bleh idea.
Commanders already have the ability to drop catalyst packs to help marines run/fire faster but they are underutilized.
Why not combine Flayra's idea of marine sprinting so that when activated and you ran up to a wall it would allow you to wall jump to grab a ledge or vent and pull yourself up (and into the vent).
If the marines all went poof, that would mean the comm spent the equivalent of equipping them all with jetpacks (including the research cost), and that they all have significantly less armor. Should a hive rush actually happen like this (which admittedly would be crazy <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), as soon as the aliens got back there it'd be a feast. Plus, it would take them longer to get to their objective (since they'd have to all cloak up a few times on the way, likely), during which the aliens would likely sack their base.
The way its been set up, the AC suit would rarely be on more than two people on the team at the same time, imo, and they'd be out on their own trying to get PGs or take out nodes.
but despite that i quite like the idea. AC would probs not be the most common tactical choice for a comm considering it wud only be useful for a few players on ur team so i dont think it would be over used.
Also camoflage/invisibilty can look abit different on the source engine. take alook at the AC in dystopia mod, that looks really good. u can see the players especially when they are moving but u have to be paying real attention. The hidden source also cloaks the hidden, tho hes abit harder to see, and he doesnt look quite so liquid when he moves. i dont think an Opera mod/specialists mod movement addition may work. it wud make playing the AC class feel like something complelty different to ns, and it wud involve alot of extra code and animation.
ps. i fight between an AC rine and a cloaked skulk wud be funny
I don't think it would be used much at all. The only thing it would be good for is ninja-ing phase gates and if the aliens spot a guy with one the jig is up immediately.
The ninja already exists, is already a niche role, and would still exist in its same form whether or not the AC suit is implemented. A ninja is simply anyone who actively tries to sneak his way near a hive to get a PG up. It takes a certain level of panache and map knowledge (and MT helps loads) to avoid aliens, especially those directly crossing your path, but it happens all the time.
The Active Camouflage suit would simply be a tech branch to boost the ninja's chance of completing his objective. Partial camouflage which would really only work well when hes being sneaky - walking or staying still. Quieter footsteps, and immunity to parasite (not the damage though).
But this comes at a price. The ninja has significantly less armor; his armor level is basically -1.5 to whatever upgrade he has. He cant carry an HMG or a GL. And scent and SCs still pick him up.
Because its balanced so hard already, I felt that a cost of 10 res would be more than fair, as well as a requirement of only an AA + tech (rather then proto + tech). Fades will be up by then regardless, and most comms would likely not tech it for some time.
This is NOT a copy of cloaking. Cloaked aliens are the same aliens, just they go invisible. This marine loses armor and offensive capability to gain stealth, and at a cost of res.
They shouldn't be encouraged any more than they already are.