<!--quoteo(post=1662563:date=Dec 2 2007, 12:18 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Dec 2 2007, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gameplay side of me knows why the Marines don't have more melee weapons, but storywise is doesn't seem to make a lick of sense why in a universe where the marines have phase tech, re-chargeable / re-fueling jet packs, mech armor suits, nanobot tech, and swiss army knife welders, that they don't have access to energy blades, short swords, long swords, shields (physical and energy), grappling mag hooks, auto-shotties, grenade lauchers with clips, rotating barrel HMGs, RPGs, TOWs, underwater / space suits, lasers / phasers / energy weapons, cloaking tech, and chainsaws.
There is a ton of stuff the marines aren't using, the story / atmosphere side of me wonders why it is the case, and the gameplay side of me wishes it were possible without wrecking the fun of playing the Kharaa - which is a balancing issue, yes? A tweaking of cost and damage type variables and limitations on uses, like carry limits: so not insurmountable.
Attaching our current blade as a bayonet is most definitely plausible and within the realm of balance if treated with due diligence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if we are going for a more realistic-ish approach of melee weapons, there is more to why marines don't have lots of em.
Skulks are strong as heck (add strength to every better lifeform), try whacking a sword at something which has the muscle power to climb ceilings. If it charges at you and you hit it straight on you wont get another chance to swing with a skulk on your chest.
Energy swords would cause a lot more damage ofc, but think elecrified RTs, firstly you have to create a sword and then infuse it with expensive power to make it effective. Don't forget this is NEAR future setting, high voltage electricity doesn't harm even the lowest kharaa much and laser/beam swords isn't anywhere nearby possible for practical use. Energy shields are in same category. I can't say what you can invent after getting phase tech but I believe it isn't the same as beam/laser/force fields, perhaps phase gates had a higher priority then other tech.
Heavy armor could probably be/is invented today, we just don't have the material, or the enemies, to make it effective enough. It's a lot easier to survive a rhino head-on rush then a rpg to the face, because of shockwave and such.
Jetpacks I think are connected to the nano grid and is directly feeding energy/fuel from it via phase tech.
Dunno about hooks, I guess marines likes it better on the broad ground then in vents and dark skulk infested ceilings.
Nanobot tech is countered by Kharaa infestation. Welders are purely game mechanical, at least I can't remember any backstory about them except for welding doors shut/open.
You don't want to fire RPGs/TOWs inside a frail infested space station.
Underwater tech would be a waste of time, as 98% of all battles are on land anyway. Aliens hiding underwater would die as the hives go down. Neither were TSA most probably prepared to fight underwater in space stations.
You can't cloak from something which can feel your presence, smell and simply locate you via parasites.
I will never believe in chainsaws as a real weapon until someone else then horror movies and games shows me. It would be more hazardous to yourself then the enemy, especially Kharaa.
A riot sheild did occur to me as an interesting addition to the rines arsnal. it could fill the primary weapon slot, and ud only be able to weld the pistol with it. Ud have to put it away to get out the knife. u cud then have one rine at the front of a group absorbing all the acid rockets, parasites, gorge gunge, and getting in the way of onos and fades, hed be o limtited use agianst skulks and lerks. he would nto be a combat class due to not being able to weld the kife with the sheild, and the sacrific of a primary offensive weapon would be a major draw back. im not sure how the sheild would work form a tecknical point of view. it would ahve to offer a directional impervious barrier, but if the rine holding it got attacked from the back or sides hed be as vulernalbe as any other rine.
Also id like a weapon that does very minimal damage but attacks the aliens energy bar. so when a fade swoops in to the room u cud fill him full of rounds or beat him if it were a mele weapon, and he would not have the energy to attack effectivly or swoop back out. it could be some sort of energy mele weapon, like an electrified batton, that replaces the kife, or it could be an energy gun, or a dart gun. in any respect, it would cause low physical damage, like 5dmg per hit/shot
<!--quoteo(post=1662569:date=Dec 2 2007, 09:12 AM:name=Buzzou)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buzzou @ Dec 2 2007, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the original GL had a clip, but then they remade the model to have the current barrel thingy. i think it was due to balancing issues, the clip was obviously much faster to reload, and resulted in heaps more nade spamming. on the up side, you can now shoot a nade, then reload just that single nade, which is quicker than the time to replace the old clip.
personally i love the reload animation on the new one, i just wish the bloody thing would reload slightly quicker....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't they just slow down/speed up animations? That's what catalyst does right?
And why they never gave us energy weapons is beyond me. I see no reason whynot, and in fact it feels strange that there ISN'T one... I could see them making the new lighter weps use "lead," while the bigger ones like HMG would use some sort of energy round.
<!--quoteo(post=1662744:date=Dec 3 2007, 12:12 PM:name=biological_component)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(biological_component @ Dec 3 2007, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Energy weapons would be too much like playing Halo......yuck...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or Half Life ... mmm, yummy, that's good gameplay...
Energy weapons can be done poorly and really well.
Besides, it was just a tech quandry I was rambling on about. It just puzzles me that in a game where we we use phase tech, nanites, and tesla lightning electrification, why would we be at such odds to throwing a blade on a marine's weapon?
Any kind of weapon can be done poorly or done wonderfully.
Personally, I think melee for Kharaa could stand for some huge improvements, first person view has never been ideal in a melee situation for judging cover, obstacles and distance to target to connect a hit.
When it comes to discounting weapons, instead of thinking of the worst, why not the best? Just because some other game did it "meh" doesn't mean it can't be done to be a fun gaming experience and/or balanced.
Lots of other games have done poor flame throwers, should we assume the worst about that weapon in NS2? Or did some of us go "Oh cool, a counter to the infestation!"
Think about it, bayonets, perhaps they could be "energy weapons", the poor sucker of a marine would have to give up his ranged advantage or something Or perhaps as suggested before, he gives up one secondary feature for another. However its done, its all changeable anyways, so may the best weapon mods win.
<!--quoteo(post=1662744:date=Dec 3 2007, 12:12 PM:name=biological_component)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(biological_component @ Dec 3 2007, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Energy weapons would be too much like playing Halo......yuck...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a strong argument... Do you base all of your decisions on such powerful arguments? Seriously... "It's like halo"?
Well, then we cant use grenades cause thats too much like playing Halo too! YUCK! And those bullets, pictols, those are just like playing Halo also, NO WAY! GROSS!
there are guns in other games so we cant have those? i agree with corpsman, theres no point in righting off any ideas simply because it isnt 100% original, cos most of the ideas in NS relate to some film or game. If energy weapons were to be used they could be remade a fresh in the NS universe, they could look and function completly differently to energy weapons in halo and other games.
I see energy weapons in ns as experimental slow firing, unpredictable but powerful guns rather than quick blue and green crap firing shiny things like those in halo. An ns energy weapon could fire a red beam, or a white beam, and it could have an over heat, and harm the rine if used to recklessly. If it was slow firing and cumbersome, it would be a useless solo rine gun, as skulks and lerks would make sort work of rine with one. The rine would have to hang in a group and use the gun against structures, and larger targets like the onos.
Admittedly unless an energy gun replaces one of the current weapon classes (HMG) it will be complex to balance its role with in the game. I spose you could ahve it as in effect a higher damage slower firing gun that ineffect has the same role, cost and equivillent stats to the HMG, just as an alternative for those who like variation. (do all the guns in CSS actually serve a purpose or are some of them just there to add diversity on a more aesthetic rather than tactical level). In short it could be a redressed heavy assult weapon for people who'd like a change from the HMG or shottie, but it would serve any purpose that these could not already fufill.
Hmm, I think bayonet wouldn't really fit the style. However, there might be room for low damage buttsmack or kick as an altfire move for weapons that have no other altfire functions. Just a desperation move with very low damage and makes your gun unable to fire for a couple of seconds. Might push the target slightly away, though.
For energy weapons, I daresay that they don't really fit the style either, but I like thinking about them. Should be somewhat realistic approach, and not something like "this gun shoots glowing green balls and we call it plasma." This will probably mean instahit beams instead of projectiles. 2 ways to approach energy weapons is either make them large, powerful and slow firing, or make them "blasters": much like regular guns, but they have lots of ammo and rarely need reloading.
I think that the standard knife should be able to be attached to any of the marine weapons except the GL and pistol and used as a bayonet. Basically, it would extend your reach significantly (you can bayonet skulks just before they get in biting range) but attack more slowly, doing the same damage as the standard knife. Also, jetpackers would get a 20 damage bonus for bayonetting at full speed. It would be quite entertaining to fly by and stick gorgies like that.
By opting to attach your knife to your weapon, you effectively trade speed for reach.
I have also been thinking of a weapon that drains the alien energy. I think something like an electrolaser or taser mounted under the LMG barrel with a 5 second cooldown that saps alien energy by 1/3rd with a maximum range of 10 meters would be great.
Comments
There is a ton of stuff the marines aren't using, the story / atmosphere side of me wonders why it is the case, and the gameplay side of me wishes it were possible without wrecking the fun of playing the Kharaa - which is a balancing issue, yes? A tweaking of cost and damage type variables and limitations on uses, like carry limits: so not insurmountable.
Attaching our current blade as a bayonet is most definitely plausible and within the realm of balance if treated with due diligence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if we are going for a more realistic-ish approach of melee weapons, there is more to why marines don't have lots of em.
Skulks are strong as heck (add strength to every better lifeform), try whacking a sword at something which has the muscle power to climb ceilings. If it charges at you and you hit it straight on you wont get another chance to swing with a skulk on your chest.
Energy swords would cause a lot more damage ofc, but think elecrified RTs, firstly you have to create a sword and then infuse it with expensive power to make it effective. Don't forget this is NEAR future setting, high voltage electricity doesn't harm even the lowest kharaa much and laser/beam swords isn't anywhere nearby possible for practical use. Energy shields are in same category. I can't say what you can invent after getting phase tech but I believe it isn't the same as beam/laser/force fields, perhaps phase gates had a higher priority then other tech.
Heavy armor could probably be/is invented today, we just don't have the material, or the enemies, to make it effective enough. It's a lot easier to survive a rhino head-on rush then a rpg to the face, because of shockwave and such.
Jetpacks I think are connected to the nano grid and is directly feeding energy/fuel from it via phase tech.
Dunno about hooks, I guess marines likes it better on the broad ground then in vents and dark skulk infested ceilings.
Nanobot tech is countered by Kharaa infestation. Welders are purely game mechanical, at least I can't remember any backstory about them except for welding doors shut/open.
You don't want to fire RPGs/TOWs inside a frail infested space station.
Underwater tech would be a waste of time, as 98% of all battles are on land anyway. Aliens hiding underwater would die as the hives go down. Neither were TSA most probably prepared to fight underwater in space stations.
You can't cloak from something which can feel your presence, smell and simply locate you via parasites.
I will never believe in chainsaws as a real weapon until someone else then horror movies and games shows me. It would be more hazardous to yourself then the enemy, especially Kharaa.
Also id like a weapon that does very minimal damage but attacks the aliens energy bar. so when a fade swoops in to the room u cud fill him full of rounds or beat him if it were a mele weapon, and he would not have the energy to attack effectivly or swoop back out. it could be some sort of energy mele weapon, like an electrified batton, that replaces the kife, or it could be an energy gun, or a dart gun. in any respect, it would cause low physical damage, like 5dmg per hit/shot
personally i love the reload animation on the new one, i just wish the bloody thing would reload slightly quicker....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't they just slow down/speed up animations? That's what catalyst does right?
And why they never gave us energy weapons is beyond me. I see no reason whynot, and in fact it feels strange that there ISN'T one... I could see them making the new lighter weps use "lead," while the bigger ones like HMG would use some sort of energy round.
Or Half Life ... mmm, yummy, that's good gameplay...
Energy weapons can be done poorly and really well.
Besides, it was just a tech quandry I was rambling on about. It just puzzles me that in a game where we we use phase tech, nanites, and tesla lightning electrification, why would we be at such odds to throwing a blade on a marine's weapon?
Any kind of weapon can be done poorly or done wonderfully.
Personally, I think melee for Kharaa could stand for some huge improvements, first person view has never been ideal in a melee situation for judging cover, obstacles and distance to target to connect a hit.
When it comes to discounting weapons, instead of thinking of the worst, why not the best? Just because some other game did it "meh" doesn't mean it can't be done to be a fun gaming experience and/or balanced.
Lots of other games have done poor flame throwers, should we assume the worst about that weapon in NS2? Or did some of us go "Oh cool, a counter to the infestation!"
Think about it, bayonets, perhaps they could be "energy weapons", the poor sucker of a marine would have to give up his ranged advantage or something Or perhaps as suggested before, he gives up one secondary feature for another. However its done, its all changeable anyways, so may the best weapon mods win.
What a strong argument... Do you base all of your decisions on such powerful arguments? Seriously... "It's like halo"?
Well, then we cant use grenades cause thats too much like playing Halo too! YUCK! And those bullets, pictols, those are just like playing Halo also, NO WAY! GROSS!
Did you put *any* thought into your comment?
I see energy weapons in ns as experimental slow firing, unpredictable but powerful guns rather than quick blue and green crap firing shiny things like those in halo. An ns energy weapon could fire a red beam, or a white beam, and it could have an over heat, and harm the rine if used to recklessly. If it was slow firing and cumbersome, it would be a useless solo rine gun, as skulks and lerks would make sort work of rine with one. The rine would have to hang in a group and use the gun against structures, and larger targets like the onos.
Admittedly unless an energy gun replaces one of the current weapon classes (HMG) it will be complex to balance its role with in the game. I spose you could ahve it as in effect a higher damage slower firing gun that ineffect has the same role, cost and equivillent stats to the HMG, just as an alternative for those who like variation. (do all the guns in CSS actually serve a purpose or are some of them just there to add diversity on a more aesthetic rather than tactical level). In short it could be a redressed heavy assult weapon for people who'd like a change from the HMG or shottie, but it would serve any purpose that these could not already fufill.
For energy weapons, I daresay that they don't really fit the style either, but I like thinking about them. Should be somewhat realistic approach, and not something like "this gun shoots glowing green balls and we call it plasma." This will probably mean instahit beams instead of projectiles. 2 ways to approach energy weapons is either make them large, powerful and slow firing, or make them "blasters": much like regular guns, but they have lots of ammo and rarely need reloading.
By opting to attach your knife to your weapon, you effectively trade speed for reach.
I have also been thinking of a weapon that drains the alien energy. I think something like an electrolaser or taser mounted under the LMG barrel with a 5 second cooldown that saps alien energy by 1/3rd with a maximum range of 10 meters would be great.