commander perspective
duke_Qa
Join Date: 2007-09-22 Member: 62405Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2007-09-22 Member: 62405Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">perhaps more than a top-down view?</div>basically, i am wondering if a less top-down and 3d-oriented commander view would have been an option? i am not a programmer so i have no clue how to best program walls/roofs to become invisible. but i am guessing that a top-down view is easier to program than a 3d-view. making a 3d commander view would make the job of the commander alot easier, and it would allow mappers to create rooms vertically stacked, which could create some interesting map-designs.
Another thing that could be added to this might be let the commander see a stylized, simplified version of the map while in commander mode. I did a quick drawing of how this might look.
<img src="http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8505/commanderviewtheorycopyur7.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
sorry if its a bit messy, but its just a quick doodle of how one could create a user interface that would look interesting. basically inspired a bit by Defcon, which i think is a good example of inspiration for a commander U.I. its more likely after all that a commanders U.I of the "battlefield" will be a virtual picture rather than a camera looking right at the map.
Another thing that could be added to this might be let the commander see a stylized, simplified version of the map while in commander mode. I did a quick drawing of how this might look.
<img src="http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8505/commanderviewtheorycopyur7.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
sorry if its a bit messy, but its just a quick doodle of how one could create a user interface that would look interesting. basically inspired a bit by Defcon, which i think is a good example of inspiration for a commander U.I. its more likely after all that a commanders U.I of the "battlefield" will be a virtual picture rather than a camera looking right at the map.
Comments
Your view is top down, but its not 2d, its a fully 3d view, so if you look at the edge of your screen in commandermode you can see through some walls. Remember, the walls are only transparent from one side.
but now that i've looked a bit there seems to have been plenty of other people suggesting this sort of perspective on the commander mode before, which is good. hopefully they'll make something like this.
I don't think an isometric or non-top-down view would work as well though, as the key functions the Commander needs is to a) understand what's happening where and b) to build structures and interact with his team. The top-down view seems to be best for this as other views would be hard to navigate or select.
I don't think an isometric or non-top-down view would work as well though, as the key functions the Commander needs is to a) understand what's happening where and b) to build structures and interact with his team. The top-down view seems to be best for this as other views would be hard to navigate or select.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the comment. i can understand that the top-down view was the best for NS1, but it would have been interesting to see a new system in this game aswell. NS1 was in my opinion the blueprint for bf2 and bf2142's commander modes, and it would have been cool to see NS2 be one step ahead of the pro's again by doing something rejuvenating with the commander mode again. <ul><li>What i am suggesting here is still a RTS-angle in my opinion, but with more advanced navigation. look at the drawing i drew up there, and consider it an object in 3d space that you could zoom in on. the floors with a bit brighter blue on them would be areas that are "legal" to build buildings on or drop health and ammo on.
</li><li>Navigation is naturally a concern, but i personally believe that most people are getting more and more used to advanced 3d-navigations as they become more and more standard in games. if you've tried supreme commander it would be a fine example, though not perfect as it still is pretty much based on fighting within one plane. you can rotate and tilt and zoom the camera incredibly easy, and if you get lost you just push a button to reset the camera to its standard position.
</li><li>Selection will in my opinon not be as troublesome as one might think. as long as walls are practically invisible and the "legal" floor is the only spots that the mouse can be placed, you will practically have the same options as usual. with a proper zoom function where you can zoom out by scrolling the wheel and then zoom back in by holding the mouse over the point you want to zoom in and scroll back again is incredible fast when done right.</li></ul>
when i get my programs straightened out i shall try to make a test-render and see if i can emulate what i am thinking about better than this doodle i've made here.
It is not too dissimilar to an idea I tried to get across as well. Here is an image, a poor sketch as well:
<a href="http://img47.imageshack.us/my.php?image=envconcept03commandercohe3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7118/envconcept03commandercohe3.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
I also consider the Commander to be viewing a "virtual" version of the map. Personally, I want to be able to see the schematics of the utilities/infrastructure (power lines, pipes, ventilation, etc) of the map was well.
My approach to being able to get around the trouble that NS1 currently has with vertically stacked rooms or even rooms with high ceilings and overhangs would be a virtual "Commander" that can run around the map, dropping structures and stuff in front of the avatar.
I like your solution too and would like to see either given a trial run.
I also want to see NS2 beat out BattleField as well and I think that being influenced by Supreme Commander and its enjoyable view point is a good way to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1652765:date=Sep 28 2007, 03:54 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Sep 28 2007, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1652765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) understand what's happening where and b) to build structures and interact with his team. The top-down view seems to be best for this as other views would be hard to navigate or select.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) I disagree, the NS1 view point of a Commander has bugged me for along time, since it tends to give me "tunnel vision" and I don't know what is happening or where.
b) Building structures is fine right now except trying to building under ledges or stacked rooms. I like the red / green feedback for current structure placement, but vertically there are still issues.
If I could "zoom out" more as a Commander in NS1, I am not sure these would even be issues. I just too often feel like as a Commander I am wearing blinders, like a horse attached to the cart.
In NS1, the commander is generally seen as a supplier of structures and orders. I think they should be able to control the map itself in a more literal way... The closest analogy is the ship's avatar from the Scifi series 'Andromeda', with power over all of the ship's systems. If the commander could activate sentry guns, open airlocks to blow out aliens, use security cameras to keep an eye on things... He'd become much more of an overseer than a civil engineer.
It would be awesome if ns2 maps had alot more meaningful interaction with the map
As for the perspective, im more partial to the top down view, easy simple view with minimal adjusting needed with maximum 'seeing'. If it is moved to the position like in the first post, it would be very hard to drop meds on the exact location you want, and even with the ability to move around the camera, it would be very frustrating i think and most likely people will still just set it to a top down view, and really the only thing a top down view would need in order to support just about everything is maybe a floor/level toggle.
<!--QuoteBegin-CanadianWolverine+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My approach to being able to get around the trouble that NS1 currently has with vertically stacked rooms or even rooms with high ceilings and overhangs would be a virtual "Commander" that can run around the map, dropping structures and stuff in front of the avatar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this part is the only part which i would disagree with you on. no offense meant, but running around like that would totally revamp how a commander works and create even more tunnel-sight than that he already has. What happens when some players would need help? he would have to run over to them and help them out, quickly takes 1-2 minutes depending on how far away they are. then someone gets attacked and needs a healthpack? he would have to run over to them and give it to them in person... which would be waaay too late. Thirdly, taking over resource points early in the game with multiple players taking different points on different parts of the map? one commander wouldn't be enough at all.
totally agree with the rest though. especially the scroll-out ability of supreme commander, perfect example of how navigation should be in RTS's these days.
No offense taken, I was just relating an idea I touched upon in a thread I posted once and in it I was trying to accomplish much the same things you are with this idea:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=102464" target="_blank">Commander and The Nano Grid Matrix</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens when some players would need help? he would have to run over to them and help them out, quickly takes 1-2 minutes depending on how far away they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are assuming the Commander's avatar / holographic image travels at the same speed as a marine, in my proposed idea, the seeing as the Commander is in a virtual world to begin with, his avatar moves at the speed he programs it to (a slider bar or whatever). Also, I would give the avatar the ability to fly, like a jet pack with no energy loss. And as well, I would allow the same movement as the responding to a med pack or ammo pack call, instantaneous to the marine's location. In addition, I like seeing what the parts of the map are made up of, and no reason the walls can't be translucent (see through) within the constraints of fog of war.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->then someone gets attacked and needs a healthpack? he would have to run over to them and give it to them in person... which would be waaay too late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, the response to a med pack would be little different than it is now or maybe totally different, I personally detest the invulnerability possible with the way med packs are done now.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thirdly, taking over resource points early in the game with multiple players taking different points on different parts of the map? one commander wouldn't be enough at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, you are assuming the view point can not skip from place to place like it does now. I don't see any change to that, click on your map or response button or the space bar or whatever and instantly your avatar and 3D view within the walls arrive instantly.
Actually, come to think of it, it should come across similar to your 3D idea, only the difference is one would be inside the walls and the other outside the walls. Kinda like one is the zoom in and the other is the zoom out.
Currently, as Commanders, we do have a virtual avatar already in NS1, the mouse pointer and the way points. Both are bound to the surface they hover and both can be seen by the marines when a Commander gives a way point. I suppose it might be cool if the way point instead of being a round circle, was the Commander's holographic image, pointing at this or that, handing out advice and instructions, commanding the available nanites to construct structures or supplies.
I hope you can see we are trying to tackle the same problems faced in NS1 to be avoided in NS2 but from slightly different angles.
As far as virtual commander, I have a similar idea I would like to propose. How about a commander aura boost for a limited time. This would be an upgrade. The commander activates it by selecting where to "virtually displace him". Once activated lets say for example, a pretty NS Heavy Model glowing orange or something fancy appears in location. During this, the commander is that player controlling remotely. He can use it to drop med kits and ammo but with better view and also gives off a moral or some kind of aura that basically gives the marines a boost for X amount of time. The orange glowing heavy can be hit by aliens and destroyed but should be somewhat strong so one guy can't take it down in couple seconds. Once dead commander screen goes static for X amount of time then returns to normal view. You could build on that a lot for how you want to go with it. I just think it would add that little bit the commander position is missing that drive a lot of people away that don't find it as fun, and think it is just a "building and dropping health and ammo job".
Every map should have the map makers homepage ".com", or name posted in the ready room, so if there is a problem you can report it. Plus, they should be testing the maps to death, so wherever a problem exists, they should be squashed. Is this not so for EVERY game?
Well, maybe you could change the view with some sort of plugin? Not completely change it, but maybe put the camera angle just slightly off to the side to get rid of problems. Would this maybe work better?
If I was looking from the side I would have issues with field of vision and depth as well as trying to figure out where on the floor I am dropping anything. Your scetch has merit and a view like that for the mini map would be nice I believe.
The idea of a commander avatar I have to believe is foolish and would be abused. I think there are better options for that regard. An over the shoulder camera view of certain players the commander can select from is a good idea but since we are looking top down I don't know what you would need to see in that view that you can't see normally now.
I think the main issue here is the usefulness and nessecity of a new view point. Yes improvements can be made to the Top down view, the UI, how the mini map works, all that. However ask yourself if you would really make use of a new angle or point of view? When you need to drop medpacks all the time and ammo and coordinate and move many individual players with dubious abilities to listen and follow orders then do you have the time?
Sorry, you misunderstood me. Probably you've never seen Andromeda... I don't mean a physical walk-around presence, instead more an embodiment of the map, able to control parts of it rather than just observing. This is probably the wrong topic to bring it up in...
I agree that a top-down view is a good solution, but an isometric view may be better. I suggest an isometric camera similar to the one in Evil Genius, allowing the commander to freely rotate, zoom and pitch to get a clearer view. Once comms get the hang of it, they'll find they can see much more, and mappers wil also be able to add more vertical layers to maps as commanders will be able to reach every point.
Strange, I was proposing that it be a avatar as seen from the third person, not first person. As well, I was proposing none of the mobility of the current Commander view be removed.
It was only an attempt to approach vertically stacked floors/surfaces and have a commander still be able to drop what they need to those surfaces. After reading over the well thought out posts here and in other threads regarding this, I would also like the "gradual light to dark bar" that allows a zoom from high up on the top most floor to down low on the bottom most floor while keeping it in the top down view point. This would satisfy the need navigate 3D enviroments of different heights as long as object that are dropped by the Commander do not originate from the ceiling but directly above the surface our mouse pointer is over, or we would still have the same problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1653019:date=Sep 29 2007, 11:19 PM:name=ZONK)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZONK @ Sep 29 2007, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think the devs should be spending the extra time it would take to make this. What you are proposing is a pretty timely task. Not only setting up the view but also rules for which walls to see through. So I would rather save time and get the game released with an overlay then spend time changing it from NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure it is extra time and effort, while I am sure they already have a design document in place they have been showing us that they are putting in place a system to play test ideas as fast and accurately as possible: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/06" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/06</a>
Basicly, they are doing the leg work now for a good foundation to build on and it is from Source material but still their own - it is no longer chained to the leg of Half-Life 1. In other words, they already have to rebuild everything they already did in NS1 plus add all the ideas that didn't work then for the mod but will work now for their new game, such as the flame thrower.
Please, don't discourage an idea in this fashion unless 1) You know what the Design Doc is (In which case, we want to see it!) 2) You are a Unknown Worlds Dev 3) You have intimate detailed programing knowledge that NS1 can be so easily ported or how the idea is implemented in NS2.
Its important to be reasonable when blasting other peoples ideas away. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
This gave me a quick idea, probley wrong thread for it but it would be nice if medpacks weren't instant but took time to form/constructed in the air before the drop. =)
also, 'zoom' doesn't make sense or work for multiple stories.
hmm, this brings up an interesting thing that should be added to a commanders HUD. a window where the view of the marines who are asking for help/being under attack/spotting an enemy pops up. a small history under the window with the last 3-5 players "requests" are logged in case alot happens alot would also be important. pressing the window will zoom the commander to the player in question.
alot of other things i should have replied to but i have to make dinner.
And if you are new to the game it is way to hard to learn how to command.
The most boring thing that can happen is no one go into the role as commander,
and marines get a crap start of the round.
(by this I mean public play, classic maps <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> )
KISS = keep it simpel stupid