Why Sprint Keys Are Bad
Radix
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Members, Constellation
This was brought up and it's worth discussing.
Put very simply:
Airspeed control as it stands now requires attention to detail on the part of the player as well as the tactical choice between aiming or maximizing movement and evasion. This creates a very dynamic experience on the part of the player.
In contrast, sprint keys simply make your character powerful. No tactics are used in the making of this power, you just simply jump from "I'm slow with good long range" to "I'm fast with good long range" at the touch of a button. No choices are being made except when to use the ability. Granted this is what blink does, but blink is used in combination with airspeed control, so it's like comparing apples and oranges to make that argument.
While it's definitely desirable to achieve a more intuitive skill-based movement system, implementing a vanilla "speed boost" key isn't the way to do it.
Put very simply:
Airspeed control as it stands now requires attention to detail on the part of the player as well as the tactical choice between aiming or maximizing movement and evasion. This creates a very dynamic experience on the part of the player.
In contrast, sprint keys simply make your character powerful. No tactics are used in the making of this power, you just simply jump from "I'm slow with good long range" to "I'm fast with good long range" at the touch of a button. No choices are being made except when to use the ability. Granted this is what blink does, but blink is used in combination with airspeed control, so it's like comparing apples and oranges to make that argument.
While it's definitely desirable to achieve a more intuitive skill-based movement system, implementing a vanilla "speed boost" key isn't the way to do it.
Comments
Wait... did NS1 have sprint keys? Or are you talking only about NS2 having them? I don't like the idea, because then I wouldn't use them since I spend most of my time shooting and thinking. It's just a handicap for the marines.
but i guess marines would benefit from a sprint key as a means to run away - not attack.
so when marines hit the sprint key the weapon is lowered, you can't shoot, you get a speed increase, then it takes a second to pull out your gun, another second to check the mag for jams etc, and then finally aim the gun. Perhaps checking for jams would be an optional thing to do, but then occasionally it would be jammed.
So if you are in being chased down by a skulk, you can turn, run back to a group of marines, turn around to face the skulk, pull out your gun and fire, however it may go "click click click" instead of shooting if you didnt check it for jamming.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I'm thinking sprint would only work running forwards or at a very acute angle. So you'd have to choose between standing your ground, or running away. I don't see how running into what you're shooting would help.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, "a more intuitive, skill based movement system," isn't on my agenda.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No tactical justification, I just find it fun. >.>
Plus, the heavy helmet-muffled breathing would add a nice touch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats backed up by the fact that noone even talked about it. Sure, you can argue over how fast a celerity skulk should be, or a blinking fade, but dont touch the marines default movement speed please.
Which means, <i>no sprint button</i>.
"Shoot and Scoot"
&
"Hurry up and Wait"
Basicly, unless there is some sense of this, you hardly have an ideal movement worked out as a TSA marine.
IMHO, sprint but no weapon shooting (or even pointed up in front of you), also have it "adrenaline" limited would work. I would also like to see marines able to perform John Woo like acrobatics, depending on what kind of armor you are wearing (Ninja, Light, Medium, Heavy). This would definitely improve your "skill", in terms of those wishing it go after one kind of armor, ninja, and others who don't want it go to the other end of the scale, heavy.
On top of that, marines as it is make piss poor use of cover, they don't lean to, go prone, grab ledges, or use their sights for the more accurate shots at the expense of peripheal vision (not something I would necissarily want to do against creatures who love to flank and ambush).
You should rename this thread "Why Treating NS1 Like Its The Perfect Game Is Bad". With nay saying like this, its a wonder anyone bothers to post any ideas at all.
it's not? skill-based movement is partially why ns is so amazing, especially at higher levels of play.
I think sprint isn't a bad idea at all, but it applies much better to the aliens for the reason that aliens are agile and melee by nature. (although that is assuming NS1 traits stay the same) Could it apply to the marines? Perhaps, but I'd rather the marine be able to slide, peak around corners, and have correct animations for ladder climbing and boosting up a teammate into that vent or onto the ledge. Those things don't increase the marine soldier's velocity but are of huge benefit to tactical verstatility.
^ read that last paragraph again please ^
"Shoot and Scoot"
&
"Hurry up and Wait"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hehe Oh man... that's dangerous. J.K. I am in the military. Im a Navy Corpsman- So for one, shoot and scoot means to fire and move. Same as flashlight tactics. You don't shine your light and fire at someone. In fact they teach not to even use your flashlight as a means to look. You use your night vision. The only purpose of a flashlight is to blind your enemy and fake them out. If someone invades your home, you "ping" them with the flashlight, then move and shoot em [if need be]. *They* will shoot where they saw the light coming from as a reaction, not even thinking you moved and totally miss you. hehe Then it's "your turn." Shoot and scoot is basically the same thing. You shoot, move, shoot, move. [a moving target vs. a sittin duck]
Hurry up and wait is our olf friend "the kick in the ass". I don't know how else to describe it, but it means no lurking about or moping about when you have to do something or get something done. Things don't always work as intended, so it means you rush to get the job done/to do something, then you get to wait on someone else [usually]. So you hurry and get supplies to take them somewhere because you have stuff to do, then when you get there people who don't know jack are trying to decide where to put stuff. "Hurry up and wait"
*People processing into the military, are introduced to this wonderful process big time. They are rushed into a room and stripped of their clothes waiting for a physical, then they get to wait for 4 hours while 30 other people go in front of them. Where as in a civilian doctors visit, you would change before you were next-
Thats backed up by the fact that noone even talked about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think 99% of NS1 is fine. Doesn't mean I want to see the same game in the sequel. I know a few of my friends who crossed over from other games didn't complain because it allowed you to jump forever. : P
<!--quoteo(post=1647375:date=Sep 4 2007, 02:14 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Sep 4 2007, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not? skill-based movement is partially why ns is so amazing, especially at higher levels of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant I didn't have improving the movement system on my mind when I suggested this. I don't see why you have to choose between airspeed or sprinting, since it's already fully implemented into the HL2 code.
Just trying to keep my post a lil'shorter but I wish I could quote your whole post! I love your perspective on the sayings, that's awesome and I am sure still helps improve the atmosphere for a TSA Marine. Even though seeing as you are in the Navy and totally a wet behind the ears gooey duck! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Just kidding, thank you for your service, even if it isn't for my country (just geussing).
A little background to share with you where I heard the sayings from, my Grandfather was in World War 2, fighting in Europe with a Canadian Mechanical Division. He told me how you would duck behind this tiny part of cover, get others to shoot up the enemy position so they would duck and then boot it like your life depended on it (which it did) for the next available cover, in an attempt to flank them. He called it those two things. Also, I've read it in a few books. That's my limited experience, so while I don't think you outrank my Grampa (God keep 'im), could we agree there is more than one definition it is used for, just like SNAFU and FUBAR.
Another saying I remember was "Shoot N Loot"...
<!--quoteo(post=1647380:date=Sep 4 2007, 01:02 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Sep 4 2007, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because said naysayers aren't making the game?
I think sprint isn't a bad idea at all, but it applies much better to the aliens for the reason that aliens are agile and melee by nature. (although that is assuming NS1 traits stay the same) Could it apply to the marines? Perhaps, but I'd rather the marine be able to slide, peak around corners, and have correct animations for ladder climbing and boosting up a teammate into that vent or onto the ledge. Those things don't increase the marine soldier's velocity but are of huge benefit to tactical verstatility.
^ read that last paragraph again please ^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even though I can't figure out if the first part of the post disagrees with my post, as Devs are hardly naysayers especially where Unknown Worlds is concerned putting their money on the line, here's something for you to read that I already posted:
<!--quoteo(post=1647364:date=Sep 3 2007, 11:29 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Sep 3 2007, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO, sprint but no weapon shooting (or even pointed up in front of you), also have it "adrenaline" limited would work. I would also like to see marines able to perform John Woo like acrobatics, depending on what kind of armor you are wearing (Ninja, Light, Medium, Heavy). This would definitely improve your "skill", in terms of those wishing it go after one kind of armor, ninja, and others who don't want it go to the other end of the scale, heavy.
On top of that, marines as it is make piss poor use of cover, they don't lean to, go prone, grab ledges, or use their sights for the more accurate shots at the expense of peripheal vision (not something I would necissarily want to do against creatures who love to flank and ambush).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This tells me we agree and see eye to eye on:
Slide (John Woo Action?)
Peak (Lean To Left/Right)
Boosting (Grabbing a Ledge)
I would definitely like to see those as well and see TSA marine movement improved on. I don't want to take away from the Kharaa either, if anything, add to them to so they even more so gain that feeling of brutal melee attacks and setting up that perfect ambush, but with Charge & Leap & Blink (sprint?), as well as Silence, Celerity, Vision, and Cloak, I'm not sure what more could be done. I know third person (over the shoulder) could really help Kharaa hide and ambush and melee, maybe that is the way to go.
Even though I can't figure out if the first part of the post disagrees with my post, as Devs are hardly naysayers especially where Unknown Worlds is concerned putting their money on the line, here's something for you to read that I already posted:
This tells me we agree and see eye to eye on:
Slide (John Woo Action?)
Peak (Lean To Left/Right)
Boosting (Grabbing a Ledge)
I would definitely like to see those as well and see TSA marine movement improved on. I don't want to take away from the Kharaa either, if anything, add to them to so they even more so gain that feeling of brutal melee attacks and setting up that perfect ambush, but with Charge & Leap & Blink (sprint?), as well as Silence, Celerity, Vision, and Cloak, I'm not sure what more could be done. I know third person (over the shoulder) could really help Kharaa hide and ambush and melee, maybe that is the way to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we agree on those three points. Some things marines would greatly benefit from in tactical combat versatility and adds additional depth that a skilled player can master in. It seems pretty win-win to me.
But I do NOT want to be force to 3rd person anything. Hell why do 3rd person at all? This is a FPS, yes? We want to make people feel immersed in the game so they can feel the suspense and possible even startled by it, yes? Then it stand to reason that it should be as fully <i>First-Person</i>-Shooter as possible, yes?
3rd person has been shown in other games to make for a much more intuitive gameplay when engaged in melee combat. Seeing as melee combat is pretty much all some Kharaa classes are based on, along with sneaking and ambushes, like say Snake in Metal Gear Solid looking to knife that guard coming up to the corner.
Just saying, that has been my experience and reading of reviews, 3rd person tends to lend itself to melee action well.
I'm not saying it is the only solution however, what if the HUD for melee intense characters gave the impressions of depth perception better and an indication of how visible you are? *shrug*
For the simple reason that it makes so much sense.
When I want to run in real life I don’t do strange strafing movements and odd jumps to increase speed. My brain simply says “Move faster B***h!†and I run for as long as I can, until I run out of breath or my legs hurt.
See, the way I see it is, when I press that sprint key I am simply being my characters brain saying “Move faster B***h!†and that is accentually what you are when you play a first person computer game: a brain.
In real life you wouldn’t just walk slowly if something comes chomping at you leg, you would run away as fast as you could (assuming you couldn’t do anything else, like kill it).
But hey, if you want to stand there and jump or strafe, be my guess, but I’m gonna use my brain and leg it...
VOTE: <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->NO<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> for any reason you can give me about not having a sprint key, unless of course you enjoy having your legs chomped off, in which case you don’t really need to sprint, or walk for that matter. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->EDIT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: Also, games like BF2 have proven how effective a sprint key can be, and how much it makes scenes. Of course it has to have a stamina meter, so you can’t just run forever.
<!--quoteo(post=1647354:date=Sep 4 2007, 05:04 AM:name=WaterBoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WaterBoy @ Sep 4 2007, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think %99 of people think the movement speed of marines in NS1 was fine.
Thats backed up by the fact that noone even talked about it. Sure, you can argue over how fast a celerity skulk should be, or a blinking fade, but dont touch the marines default movement speed please.
Which means, <i>no sprint button</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did the 99% come from? If that’s even close to being right, then I am in the other 1%. I personally think that the marines speed needs to be put on steroids. It just feels way to slow, no one I know walks that slowly, no other game I have played feels that slow and frankly I think it would be nice to feel like you weren’t walking around with a ball and chain on.
But if you put them on steroids, you need to put the whole game on some steroids, just to keep it even.
<!--quoteo(post=1648570:date=Sep 10 2007, 11:10 PM:name=clankill3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clankill3r @ Sep 10 2007, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1648570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sprinting doesn't fit ns, walking and running is good else you get quake style.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When do you run in NS? Overweight unfit person running maybe. But its more like walking all the time in NS.
I would like to see the BF2 sprint, that I described, implemented into NS2.
I would like to see the BF2 sprint, that I described, implemented into NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yup same with 2142, its a good system especially when you have 2 squads working together to gain ground, one squad charges while the other provides cover, and they leap frog each other <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
yar thus iz tru
Brilliant counterargument. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see why you can't have both.
Yes, unfortunately though it looks rather silly for marines to be doing this. It destroys the atmosphere and tension of a dark sci-fi / thriller in less time than it takes to say "Marine Swan Lake".
It can be quite amusing to watch for a minute ... so not without some short-term benefit - but then it just gets old.
It can be quite amusing to watch for a minute ... so not without some short-term benefit - but then it just gets old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find such comments odd, IMHO, a John Woo "bullet ballet" is very fun to watch and play. Much better than going around the map on a pogo stick that is not in the marine's gear aka "bunny hopping".
Sprint lends itself to marines working together to cover each other to cover ground much more than what currently exists.
Thank god for Sprint ! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I like John Woo as much as the next "hard-boiled" fanatic (see other thread) but I just don't like mixing it in with alien sci-fi thrillers. Can you imagine what a room full of marines and skulks would look like if each was doing some crazy flip - nightmares I say ! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> It would completely destroy the atmosphere of a professional / well-oiled squad employing sound military tactics against an unknown/ brutal alien threat.
The "bullet ballet" works well in games like "Max Payne" as everything feels "consistent"... like you're in action movie.
It can be quite amusing to watch for a minute ... so not without some short-term benefit - but then it just gets old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
too true.
I quite like the idea of skulks bunnyhopping - other lifeforms it looks a bit stupid - marines it looks like are crazy