Do The New Patches Make It Too Hard As A Marine?

Drizzt · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">The title says it all.</div> Okay, I like patches as much as anyone else, but last Sunday(11-24-02), I must have played thirty games as a Marine, and in every single one, we lost. And it's not just the server. Every three matches or so, I switched. Here's a list of the scenarios:
1. Game starts. Five seconds later, we're being rushed by the entire Kharaa team, while we only have one spawn portal up. Oops, we're all dead! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>
2. Game starts. We get a little base up and running. Then, all of a sudden, we're attacked by a Fade. He shoots several rockets, and retreats to a giant room FILLED with offense and defense chambers, where after being healed, he then rushes back to repeat the scenario. Even more deadly with multiple Fades. How do they get the hives so quickly? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>
3. Game is going excellently. We have a large base, and control one of the hive locations. Then, Fades come in and do the basic premise of the second scenario. We lose the hive point, and ten seconds later, our base is being rushed by an entire TEAM of Onos. We can hold them off for a while, but the Kharaa have us boxed in using the rooms filled with chambers technique. No way to escape and set up a little emergency base. We're screwed. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'>
Those three scenarios happened over and over. I eventually decided to quit, not because of how long I had been playing, but because I was sick of the Kharaa always winning. I think that the Natural Selection team should come out with a new patch that beefs up the marines, and that makes the Fade and Onos MUCH harder to get. What do you think?

Sushi-Y · November 2002

happened to me quite a bit too, the thing is, the skulk rush in the beginning of the game is quite common because it's effective and easy, most marines just run off to nowhere when the game begins, and the base was left with only 1 or 2 marines, a few skilled alien players can wipe them out quickly.
It is possible to win as marines, IF the marines are half competent, and IF the commander know what's he's doing, then it's not hard to kick the alien's **obscenity**.

Sushi-Y · November 2002

I would like to see more pistol variations for the marines, and if possible, a flamethrower. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Drizzt · November 2002

We knew what we were doing. We had a skilled commander, and the Marines stayed and defended the base, except for a few that went out to secure resource thingies, but we still got shredded. Here's another picture:

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>

Thansal · November 2002

1) learn to shoot
1) don't have the entire team building, have a few posted as sentrys ready to gun down incoming skulks

2) siege turret the *beep*er
2) 2 hives already and you don't hold one of thiers? odd
2) 2 hives and you havn't expanded at all?

3) DONT BUNKER DOWN!!!!!!!!!
3) this aint real life (where bunkering in is a good thing)
3) build a phase gate between the hive at the marine spawn
3) STRATEGIC TURRET PLACWEMENT (not farming)

basic strats:
1) expand, alot
2) phase gates, with the use of these everything that is connected by them is part of your base
3) siege turrets, its how you kill hives
4) build orders, for those of you who play RTS you will understand the concept, there needs to be a good build order, folow it

ummm yah, I have been in pleanty of games that have gone both ways (true mroe alien victories, but that is b/c marines don't work well to gether, and crappy commies)

Thansal · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sushi-Y @ Nov 26 2002, 11:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would like to see more pistol variations for the marines, and if possible, a flamethrower. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>this is not a weapons mod</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

there are pistol variations (weapons up grades)

as for flame thrower, it is a possibilitie if Flay can get a true volumetric flame thrower working (and it will be fn amazing to look at b/c of the particel engine)

Drizzt · November 2002

The Marines definately need more powerful weapons. Like grenade launchers that work. I fired all thirty grenades at an offense chamber once, it was all by itself, no defense chambers, and it didn't have a scratch. The grenades hit it directly, I didn't miss. And the Fades are just too strong!

Sushi-Y · November 2002

good tactics are to put down a gazillian sieges at the captured hive, and protect the turret generator with sentries and put phase gates everywhere.

By pistol variations I mean like a 20 round version of the regular one, or a more powerful one with less ammo, etc

Foggy · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sushi-Y @ Nov 26 2002, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would like to see more pistol variations for the marines, and if possible, a flamethrower. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Whoa, it's already too much like <i>Aliens</i>... a flamethrower would put it over the line..

Drizzt · November 2002

We were using most, if not all, of those strategies. The phase gate isn't always a good idea, though. The aliens can use them, too.

ElectroKiwiMonkey · November 2002

Kharaa Rush 5 seconds into the game: I've seen this happening A LOT on eclipse lately, and a fair bit on the other maps. Obviously it's rather annoying but any sensible marine team will have a couple of players watching the doors and vents into their spawn for skulks. I often catch 2 or 3 of them just by standing beside the door in the corner so they don't notice me.

As for your little base getting Wall of Lamed... why didn't you expand more? Never EVER let the Kharaa box you into your own base. Example: On eclipse, try and take the Triad and Station Access West points, build some turrets there, then you only have to worry about Station Access East which is really a big long choke point. So what if the Fades keep rushing in and out of the hallway if you can contain them and drop a welder for someone to repair splash damage?

As for Onos rushes the second they get the third hive... IMHO the Onos needs some serious reworking, but that's just me. They should be limited in number or made more difficult to get.

All of that said, I still think the game is pretty well-balanced. Playing 3 or 4 games every night I usually see Wins split about 50/50 between the teams.

Drizzt · November 2002

Oh, and BTW, everyone's acting like siege turrets attack uits. They don't. Thay attack chambers, which take forever to kill. They only damage units through splash damage.

ElectroKiwiMonkey · November 2002

Another idea that might help, although it would probably get flamed out of existence were I to actually suggest it:

Find some way to "tether" players to their respective spawnrooms for a set amount of time. Make the excuse that the Kharaa hive needs to establish its presence in the area or something, and that the Marines need to fortify the position. Unless players are complete retards they would get a decent base up and running before a rush could hit them.

Thansal · November 2002

we were all responding to the first post about the wall of lame rigt out side his base

but yes, Electro gets it, the skulk rush is a simple thing to stop, it just takes some 1/2 decent marines (something we seem to be missing alot of)

chomp · November 2002

People its simple, if the Kharaa can rush you into a defensive position they are free to build resource points and not turrets greatly reducing the money spent so they can grab hives. They can then stock up turrets outside the marine base... As a marine you guys have to stick together and go out early 5,6 marines can end a game really early if they get behind a hive n get the commander to drop an armoury.. most people dont realise your light machine guns do 500dmg a clip (10dmgx50shots) 5,6 people = 2500-3000 dmg a clip. Hive dies very very quickly <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>
As a marine dont be scared to die, if they have fades n your got your heavy armour n hmg get up close to a corner then jump the fade n run the **obscenity** down. The hmg does sweet **obscenity** all at range and they can just run back to defense chambers.. you have to kill them outright, which means jumping the poor sod with a hmg at point blank n watching him try to flee futilely.
Early on you can out spawn aliens with enough spawn points, so who cares if you die and lose your lmg and no armour *shock* knife em if your out of ammo dont sit in a corner calling for you commander to rescue you. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

RandomEngy · November 2002

First, it's very easy to fend off skulk rushes. Just have a couple people listen and watch the entrances and LMG them before they can do any damage. Secondly, your commander just has to know what he's doing and get the team in the right place at the right time. It becomes a lot harder to take a hive point when a bunch of HMGers phase in whenever a fade starts lobbing acid rockets in. Fades don't stand a chance against HMGs at close range. Also, take a lot of resource points, but don't try to cover every node with turrets. Good uses of turret defenses are when the aliens only have 1 hive, at the main base, at double resource points, or at hives. It's usually a waste of resources to plop down a lot of turrets just for one resource tower. One fade/lerk with a little time on their hands can take out the factory and tear up all of your expensive turrets. Also, don't be afraid to have your marines guard the towers themselves while you get enough resources. Also, a lot of people ignore the importance of resources, hinging everything on keeping the aliens out of one hive. When that happens, the aliens are taking all of the resources and building up strength, while the marines have very little to work with to keep the aliens off the last hive. Also, sometimes instead of putting turrets in the hive itself, you can just make the turret group outside the hive, and add some sieges and a phase gate. It's a lot harder for the aliens find that base and coordinate an assault on it, and sometimes they'll start building at the hive and waste resources when the buildings are sieged down.

Wow, that turned into a full-fledged strategy. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

(edit) Heh, There were 2 posts when I started writing this.

Drizzt · November 2002

They were coming in like marines, though. The Skulks would just swarm in, an endless stream, since they had so many players and could get back quickly. The Marines need to have the turrets cheaper again, and should get some wide range weapons.

Drizzt · November 2002

I think that the Kharaa should only be able to have one Onos at a time, and if it get's killed, then they have to wait for a while to make another one. Once I unloaded an entire HMG clip into a Fades face, and it was still alive. That needs to tweaked. Bring me my tweakers, knave!

Zed · November 2002

lol, so new ;d
its all been said, so ill keep things brief
and try to stray from what has been said.

well basically, judging from what you said Drizzt your team(s) couldnt had been too competant, and any good commander would have known how best to expand, upgrade weapons, armour, get new stuff, trash hives, the lot ;d

generally, public servers have a very poor level of play for marines, commanders are generally on thier first few commands, or they are just not yet skilled, usually you have the odd few people who wont follow orders, etc. I only know two single UK servers that usually have competant commanders, and they are passworded (although always full). In them about half the games ive played marines have won, now I've only recently begun playing on these two servers a lot but so far its been good <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>.

hmm what a load of crap ive just typed.

Drizzt · November 2002

I don't think I had mentioned that we had nearly twice the players that they had. It must have been funny, to see four Skulks take out a team of seven Marines.

Sushi-Y · November 2002

maybe if they make the laser mines so that it can't be destroyed by shooting at it (all the aliens have projectiles that can shoot it up), and marines could place it on the ceiling and floor (right now only ones that's placed on the wall works), and increase the damage a little (right now I have skulks running through a web of mines and came out alive on the other end, only to hear him chuckle as he goes back to heal up). Maybe then it could actually be of some value

Drizzt · November 2002

The Kharaa have just been pumped up too much with the patches. Maybe I should start a petition to beef up the Marines and tone down the Kharaa.

Urge_to_Kill_Rising · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drizzt @ Nov 26 2002, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think that the Kharaa should only be able to have one Onos at a time, and if it get's killed, then they have to wait for a while to make another one. Once I unloaded an entire HMG clip into a Fades face, and it was still alive. That needs to tweaked. Bring me my tweakers, knave!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If aliens get 3 hives marines deserve to lose.

TenSix · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Once I unloaded an entire HMG clip into a Fades face, and it was still alive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

1 HMG clip will kill ANYTHING other then MAYBE an Onos. No way no how a Fade could take an entire clip from a HMG at close range. You will have to send me a demo before I believe it.

I mean seriously you must have some VERY bad aim (It was lag right? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>), I can't count how many times Ive been taken out by a HMG before I can even get 3 Acid Rockets off.

Skulk Rushes:

I've seen this defended against many times, most of the reason it succeeds is because everyone is spread out in the open while in their base. I find if Marines make a little firing line or gather round their CC or something and watch both entrances, its very easy to fend off a Skulk Rush.

Zed · November 2002

sigh the aliens are NOT overpowered.

marines can take any foe if their commander just knows what hes doing.
some commanders forget things like
* armour and weapon upgrades
* motion tracking (essential)
* phase gates + lightly turreted bases are better than turret farmed bases
* skulks and sometimes fades can hide behind turret factories and bite them to death if not placed properly.
* it is essential to secure a hive ASAP, and to not stop at that, to try and advance, securing every location you take with turrets and phase gates and maybe sieges if it helps along the way.
* other stuff ;d

and you mention 4 skulks taking 7 marines, well you marines were obviously either not observant enough or just had bad aim, and the skulks were probably quite good munchers <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> (although they dont have to be if the marines are bad enough).

a group of 4 highly skilled aliens will take a team of 8 newbies just because the game is an RTS, any advantage in technology is always huge.

Onos are NOT too powerful, neither are fades.
if an fade and/or onos is attacking a base, the commander should signal to other players of this attack and allow them to phase gate in with thier HMGs, HAs, and GLs, (if its just fades you are facing then this might not be possible, but two marines persuing a fade (round corners) with no fear of dying can take a fade, even if not at first try)

3 HMG people defending a base against a lone onos will shread an onos before it can kill a single turret or person often.

Ravlen · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drizzt @ Nov 26 2002, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The Marines definately need more powerful weapons. Like grenade launchers that work. I fired all thirty grenades at an offense chamber once, it was all by itself, no defense chambers, and it didn't have a scratch. The grenades hit it directly, I didn't miss. And the Fades are just too strong!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Grenades are bugged, and will be fixed in 1.03. Next, someone commented about putting an HMG clip into a fade and it didn't die. That means the person was thinking they were shooting a fade, and in fact were shooting the wall, or something... because I've killed hundreds of fades (I play too much), often as a light marine (usually with an HMG). The trick is to not attack alone, and to always be agressive. You'll notice that fades attack and run, right? Well, if you attack, and keep the pressure, the fades will die, and die fast.

Next, motion tracking breaks alot now, for some reason. When that works 100%, the marines will be alot less weak. They'll know where ALL moving aliens are at all times. Last night it actually worked once, and holy did it help alot. Couple the blue circles with the sounds, and you know what's coming at you, where they are, when to start shooting.

Ravlen

Zaurok · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TenSix @ Nov 26 2002, 06:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Once I unloaded an entire HMG clip into a Fades face, and it was still alive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

1 HMG clip will kill ANYTHING other then MAYBE an Onos. No way no how a Fade could take an entire clip from a HMG at close range. You will have to send me a demo before I believe it.

I mean seriously you must have some VERY bad aim (It was lag right? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>), I can't count how many times Ive been taken out by a HMG before I can even get 3 Acid Rockets off.

Skulk Rushes:

I've seen this defended against many times, most of the reason it succeeds is because everyone is spread out in the open while in their base. I find if Marines make a little firing line or gather round their CC or something and watch both entrances, its very easy to fend off a Skulk Rush.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Did you have Carapace level 3 when you got attacked by a HMG?
A fade can survive 3-4 seconds under HMG fire before dying. That's a lot yes. But if there's 2 HMG => 1.5-2 seconds to save your fade's **obscenity** is really short.

Let the team FIX the bugs first and THEN they'll start balancing the game.
Patience. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Xanieth · November 2002

I got my **obscenity** handed to me on ns_bast when I was alien. We had just got Engine Room hive started and we started at Refinery, but then they took Engine Room. After some very good turret placement, they moved on to Feedwater and took that too. We lost.

Bicycle_Repair_Man · November 2002

Definetely not, it doesn't make it hard for marines at all. I've been beaten many times today when i was the aliens.

I was just wondering something, what will the next alien strategy be when marines get used to how to shoot at us. It doesnt take long to kill a skulk with a lmg or a pistol, so when the marines can aim well what can we (as aliens) do? Some maps have hardly any hiding places for skulks so we can't ambush.
Hmmm....Better check out the appropriate place for Kharra strategy.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They were coming in like marines, though. The Skulks would just swarm in, an endless stream, since they had so many players and could get back quickly. The Marines need to have the turrets cheaper again, and should get some wide range weapons. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If the marines get on top of the big rush by the aliens and with the huge amount of players you won't see the aliens for a while because it takes AGES to spawn back in with a large amount of players on the team waiting to spawn as the aliens can only spawn in one at a time.

Unless you watch many games with people of the same skill I don't think its proper to make a decision of whether its balanced though.

Ganja · November 2002

HELLLLLLL NO!
LoL, in v 1.02 i've seen pretty much nothing but marine ownage on any map with more than 14 players

Windelkron · November 2002

first of all I don't think it's too hard as a marine, once you start patrolling with HA.HMG it's over for the lower alien classes <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

If they had rooms filled with D chambers you should have gotten seiges up. They would constantly blast the rooms, they might not kill anything (due to the bug + many chambers) but they will make the whole area inaccessable to the aliens.

Do The New Patches Make It Too Hard As A Marine?

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