InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
I don't think "Entropy" is the word you want to use. It refers to degradation, chaos and loss of useful energy. Especially given that as a system moves towards maximum entropy, it becomes more homogenous rather than having more available options.
To be honest, "options" is actually a pretty good word for it.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I've studied thermodynamics in college and your use of the word 'entropy' never seems to fit with my understanding of it ( which, admittedly, is a hazey memory of some complex maths ). I think I understand what you mean, but I have to agree with Insane that 'entropy' is a poor choice of words for it.
However, I agree that maps should have lots of options. It's something that pisses me off about Dystopia, any choice is generally just an attack route choice, leading to the same defensive choke point. They listened to Valve's lazy developer mantra "The illusion of choice is better than real choice."
i think that this <i>entropy</i> term introduced by the_x5 is ok, for me it sounds like dynamic+chaos and that is what x5 is talking about ; btw
about environment, i just got an idea reading this topic, that we could have some random objects around the map like small device parts, some pdas, pens , vessels of water/cola (spacecola ltd.), hammers, toolboxes, computer cards, photoframes(lcd) ;d etc etc etc , ok too much of it already . you propably get the idea ;d. these could move or/and make noise if a player touches it, so skulks need to be more skulky ;d you know , skulk is skulking behined the barrel and you are happy everything is in order but suddenly a glass of cola drops on the floor off the top of the barrel - zero-forms spotted ;p or just a space rat ;p
<!--quoteo(post=1637506:date=Jul 5 2007, 08:42 AM:name=korzec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(korzec @ Jul 5 2007, 08:42 AM) [snapback]1637506[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i think that this <i>entropy</i> term introduced by the_x5 is ok, for me it sounds like dynamic+chaos and that is what x5 is talking about ; btw
about environment, i just got an idea reading this topic, that we could have some random objects around the map like small device parts, some pdas, pens , vessels of water/cola (spacecola ltd.), hammers, toolboxes, computer cards, photoframes(lcd) ;d etc etc etc , ok too much of it already . you propably get the idea ;d. these could move or/and make noise if a player touches it, so skulks need to be more skulky ;d you know , skulk is skulking behined the barrel and you are happy everything is in order but suddenly a glass of cola drops on the floor off the top of the barrel - zero-forms spotted ;p or just a space rat ;p
what do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMHO, I really hope the lil'objects that get knocked over while sneaking or knocked around in fire fight make it into the game. Also, moving objects around for game play purposes as well as the atmosphere would be sweet as well.
KassingerShades of greyJoin Date: 2002-02-20Member: 229Members, Constellation
edited July 2007
Movable props seems great for making the environments feel like they're busy workstations which have just been deserted. Making it affect gameplay/make noise is a great bonus.
<!--quoteo(post=1637506:date=Jul 5 2007, 09:42 AM:name=korzec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(korzec @ Jul 5 2007, 09:42 AM) [snapback]1637506[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think that this <i>entropy</i> term introduced by the_x5 is ok, for me it sounds like dynamic+chaos and that is what x5 is talking about ; btw
about environment, i just got an idea reading this topic, that we could have some random objects around the map like small device parts, some pdas, pens , vessels of water/cola (spacecola ltd.), hammers, toolboxes, computer cards, photoframes(lcd) ;d etc etc etc , ok too much of it already . you propably get the idea ;d. these could move or/and make noise if a player touches it, so skulks need to be more skulky ;d you know , skulk is skulking behined the barrel and you are happy everything is in order but suddenly a glass of cola drops on the floor off the top of the barrel - zero-forms spotted ;p or just a space rat ;p
what do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah that's what I'm trying to get at with that term. Choices/options/pathing/many ways to complete the same objective/etc. no one word in the English language describes what I'm trying to describe and I felt entropy was the closest to what I was trying to get at. I realize it's not perfect, but just like when taking a multiple choice test, you need to select the best or most correct answer.
I think the interactive objects would be fantastic in the game. But really to have them be fully useful NS needs to be a bit less spam and a bit more stealth. I think of GRAW for example, where accidentally knocking some trash around with your feet alerts your enemies and gets you shot. The game is primarily stealth oriented. I'd like to see NS shift more in that direction because that's what makes it really scary. And I think we can agree that putting some of that fear back into NS is a very good thing.
I feel we've drifted to far from the Alien / Aliens suspenseful feel of the game which was many of the things I found unique and appealing for NS as a game. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
well this thread is ingenious, which btw, is a term that I designed to describe any thread that contains the word "entropy", "moronic", and has at least 3 different users writing in it.
I don't think 'moveable objects' such as barrels, cans, pens, etc etc need to make it into NS2.
The reasons are pretty simple: The moveable objects (I'm pretty sure) load down the server, they can adversely affect FPS, they normally never add anything to gameplay (look @ CS:S and the competitive community for CS:S is now remapping all maps w/out all that crap).
i dont agree that we should throw away anything that could eat few fps, i dont play competitve, yet 0.0 and i always played with the moveables in cs:s and enjoyed them, i find it very nice for ns especially cos these can have even better use there ;d , on the other hand i always have fps issues ;d but again, maybe fps shouldnt be the most important criterion end when the engine was designed to include the moveables ;o
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The reasons are pretty simple: The moveable objects (I'm pretty sure) load down the server, they can adversely affect FPS, they normally never add anything to gameplay (look @ CS:S and the competitive community for CS:S is now remapping all maps w/out all that crap).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the main reason this object are being removed is because they're not terribly exciting objects overall. I mean it's 80% the same crates and barrels that were in HL2. If the moveable objects are say, marine structures or spent egg casings, <i>that</i> would be more interesting.
It also is a myth to say that it will massively slow down the server. The new AMD and Intel CPU's have more than enough power, and well-organized, efficient source code will make things easier for the hardware as well.
Locallyunscene is right, it's because the objects don't have a whole lot of use. Just take HL2DM for example. The objects don't lag the server <i>that</i> much and because of the gravity gun they are actually critical to the gameplay. Whether it's flinging a porcelain sink at somebody's head, toppling a heavy object like a van over onto somebody taking cover behind it, catching to dark energy balls or grenades, or building a barricade in a stairwell up to the roof the objects being part of the gameplay make it extremely fun.
Pushing, pulling, or blasting objects around in NS2 to defend or squash will add huge amounts of depth to the game. And if some of those objects are clues to TSA or Kharaa presence in an area, wow that could really get interesting.
Natural-Selection is NOT Counter-Strike. How can you even compare it to that? (well maybe that's Combat's fault but seriously wtf mate...) Ok then, a game which has similar aspects to CS, GRAW for PC, you see far more demanded from the client and server with rather inefficient and unpolished buggy netcode coding from *grimace* Grin. And you know what? The objects don't even then have that extreme of an impact. Most of the issues from that game are with horriblly sloppy (and wasteful with RAM too) programming from a Sweedish company who UBi contracted out to finish up GRAW for PC. We have UWE, we have a the awesome Source engine, we have a full SDK, we have Max!!! If pursuit of tha extra 10 frames per second when your are pushing 60 fps is that important, then I'm thrilled that you are not making the game. Remember, frame per second is not how the human eye and brain visual system works, higher/lower fps primarily effects how we see motion blur.
<!--quoteo(post=1638464:date=Jul 11 2007, 08:20 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Jul 11 2007, 08:20 PM) [snapback]1638464[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Pushing, pulling, or blasting objects around in NS2 to defend or squash will add huge amounts of depth to the game. And if some of those objects are clues to TSA or Kharaa presence in an area, wow that could really get interesting. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh , you are out of ammo so you pick that hammer up and throw it at the skulk's butt o.o
<!--quoteo(post=1638487:date=Jul 11 2007, 05:28 PM:name=korzec)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(korzec @ Jul 11 2007, 05:28 PM) [snapback]1638487[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->heh , you are out of ammo so you pick that hammer up and throw it at the skulk's butt o.o <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like there's a one ton crate suspended above him and you shoot out a chain link holding it up. *big squishy* pwned.
Roll some explosive barrels down the ramp at west access and throw a hand grenade. Oh look! Minced offense chambers! Yummy, tastes like grilled prickly pear cactus.
This door is locked, soften the metal with the flamethrower and then use the grenade launcher to blast it open-- Oops the onos just charged through the weakened door with an army of skulks and lerks at its back. Crap.
Walking across that suspension bridge over that abyss? Better hope a focus fade doesn't cut those support cables! Aieeeee! Heavy train down!
Take cover behind that shipping crate for cover men. ONOS! Oh noes get out of there before-- *onos pushes car against wall squishing the marines between the wall and the crate, squishy*
Fade picks up a marine and lets him go with acceleration upwards at 100ft above the ground. Gravity kill FTW!
The possiblities are endless... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
The one thing i want physics related is posable ragdolls. Ragdolls are just fun and add to the visual mayhem. making them posable adds a new dimension to gloating after a kill <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> This is also the reason I'm against gory gibs. But would players end up with different poses since bodies are handled client-side?
Other physics props are always good since without them maps would seem completely dead and static. A problem might be that throughout the course of a long game, physics props that are meticulously arranged by a mapper would end up spread out on the floor after less than a minute (who can resist knocking over a physics prop?) leaving rooms looking plain for the rest of the game. CS:S can get away with it since rounds are relatively short and all props are reset every few minutes. I don't want stuff like explosive barrels which would disappear after one use and stay gone for the rest of an hour long game.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one thing i want physics related is posable ragdolls. Ragdolls are just fun and add to the visual mayhem. making them posable adds a new dimension to gloating after a kill smile-fix.gif This is also the reason I'm against gory gibs. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines don't die, they just fade away. No bodies.
probably won't mean much now... seeing as I am like 2 years behind the last post for this blog. But the idea of DI has really interested me from the first time I heard about it and many people on these forums have contributed great ideas (such as increased growth formations in areas that have been without human intervention for a long time like dangling vines, odd looking alien plantations, things that'll give the sensation that this area is deep within alien territory and is extremely unsafe for humans, a very unnerving feeling).
I can see that too much infestation would inhibit navigation. But I would hate to see NS 2 under utilize DI as the concept has so much potential. I am no computer programmer but I would love to see that an area firmly dominated by the aliens be thoroughly infested with growth, almost changing the room entirely. As you move further away from alien dominated territory the growth should start to dissipate, still being present (so incoming humans would know they were heading deeper into the heart of the alien manifestation) but be less thick with more gaps in the growth, finally stopping at a certain point, not too far away from the actual front line. Less advantages would be provided to the aliens as they move further and further away from heavier infested areas.
I've noticed that this idea hasn't been mentioned much but I think it might be an idea to not have the DI recede too fast as on coming humans successfully fight deeper and deeper into the alien territory, pushing back the aliens and their growth. The infestation should definitely start dying out, but not to the point that it dies at a sychronised pace of the human advance. I'd love to be able to play the humans and enter a room that has been massively infested but see the infestation slowly but surely die out. Playing a human that is always in a metallic surrounding would be kind of boring and it'd be nice to see the aliens falling back and as they fall back their growth also dies out.
Comments
To be honest, "options" is actually a pretty good word for it.
However, I agree that maps should have lots of options. It's something that pisses me off about Dystopia, any choice is generally just an attack route choice, leading to the same defensive choke point. They listened to Valve's lazy developer mantra "The illusion of choice is better than real choice."
about environment, i just got an idea reading this topic, that we could have some random objects around the map like small device parts, some pdas, pens , vessels of water/cola (spacecola ltd.), hammers, toolboxes, computer cards, photoframes(lcd) ;d etc etc etc , ok too much of it already . you propably get the idea ;d. these could move or/and make noise if a player touches it, so skulks need to be more skulky ;d you know , skulk is skulking behined the barrel and you are happy everything is in order but suddenly a glass of cola drops on the floor off the top of the barrel - zero-forms spotted ;p or just a space rat ;p
what do you think?
i think that this <i>entropy</i> term introduced by the_x5 is ok, for me it sounds like dynamic+chaos and that is what x5 is talking about ; btw
about environment, i just got an idea reading this topic, that we could have some random objects around the map like small device parts, some pdas, pens , vessels of water/cola (spacecola ltd.), hammers, toolboxes, computer cards, photoframes(lcd) ;d etc etc etc , ok too much of it already . you propably get the idea ;d. these could move or/and make noise if a player touches it, so skulks need to be more skulky ;d you know , skulk is skulking behined the barrel and you are happy everything is in order but suddenly a glass of cola drops on the floor off the top of the barrel - zero-forms spotted ;p or just a space rat ;p
what do you think?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMHO, I really hope the lil'objects that get knocked over while sneaking or knocked around in fire fight make it into the game. Also, moving objects around for game play purposes as well as the atmosphere would be sweet as well.
about environment, i just got an idea reading this topic, that we could have some random objects around the map like small device parts, some pdas, pens , vessels of water/cola (spacecola ltd.), hammers, toolboxes, computer cards, photoframes(lcd) ;d etc etc etc , ok too much of it already . you propably get the idea ;d. these could move or/and make noise if a player touches it, so skulks need to be more skulky ;d you know , skulk is skulking behined the barrel and you are happy everything is in order but suddenly a glass of cola drops on the floor off the top of the barrel - zero-forms spotted ;p or just a space rat ;p
what do you think?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that's what I'm trying to get at with that term. Choices/options/pathing/many ways to complete the same objective/etc. no one word in the English language describes what I'm trying to describe and I felt entropy was the closest to what I was trying to get at. I realize it's not perfect, but just like when taking a multiple choice test, you need to select the best or most correct answer.
I think the interactive objects would be fantastic in the game. But really to have them be fully useful NS needs to be a bit less spam and a bit more stealth. I think of GRAW for example, where accidentally knocking some trash around with your feet alerts your enemies and gets you shot. The game is primarily stealth oriented. I'd like to see NS shift more in that direction because that's what makes it really scary. And I think we can agree that putting some of that fear back into NS is a very good thing.
I feel we've drifted to far from the Alien / Aliens suspenseful feel of the game which was many of the things I found unique and appealing for NS as a game. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
...moronic.
(which incidentally means vastly interesting)
The reasons are pretty simple: The moveable objects (I'm pretty sure) load down the server, they can adversely affect FPS, they normally never add anything to gameplay (look @ CS:S and the competitive community for CS:S is now remapping all maps w/out all that crap).
I think the main reason this object are being removed is because they're not terribly exciting objects overall. I mean it's 80% the same crates and barrels that were in HL2. If the moveable objects are say, marine structures or spent egg casings, <i>that</i> would be more interesting.
Locallyunscene is right, it's because the objects don't have a whole lot of use. Just take HL2DM for example. The objects don't lag the server <i>that</i> much and because of the gravity gun they are actually critical to the gameplay. Whether it's flinging a porcelain sink at somebody's head, toppling a heavy object like a van over onto somebody taking cover behind it, catching to dark energy balls or grenades, or building a barricade in a stairwell up to the roof the objects being part of the gameplay make it extremely fun.
Pushing, pulling, or blasting objects around in NS2 to defend or squash will add huge amounts of depth to the game. And if some of those objects are clues to TSA or Kharaa presence in an area, wow that could really get interesting.
Natural-Selection is NOT Counter-Strike. How can you even compare it to that? (well maybe that's Combat's fault but seriously wtf mate...) Ok then, a game which has similar aspects to CS, GRAW for PC, you see far more demanded from the client and server with rather inefficient and unpolished buggy netcode coding from *grimace* Grin. And you know what? The objects don't even then have that extreme of an impact. Most of the issues from that game are with horriblly sloppy (and wasteful with RAM too) programming from a Sweedish company who UBi contracted out to finish up GRAW for PC. We have UWE, we have a the awesome Source engine, we have a full SDK, we have Max!!! If pursuit of tha extra 10 frames per second when your are pushing 60 fps is that important, then I'm thrilled that you are not making the game. Remember, frame per second is not how the human eye and brain visual system works, higher/lower fps primarily effects how we see motion blur.
Pushing, pulling, or blasting objects around in NS2 to defend or squash will add huge amounts of depth to the game. And if some of those objects are clues to TSA or Kharaa presence in an area, wow that could really get interesting.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh , you are out of ammo so you pick that hammer up and throw it at the skulk's butt o.o
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like there's a one ton crate suspended above him and you shoot out a chain link holding it up. *big squishy* pwned.
Roll some explosive barrels down the ramp at west access and throw a hand grenade. Oh look! Minced offense chambers! Yummy, tastes like grilled prickly pear cactus.
This door is locked, soften the metal with the flamethrower and then use the grenade launcher to blast it open-- Oops the onos just charged through the weakened door with an army of skulks and lerks at its back. Crap.
Walking across that suspension bridge over that abyss? Better hope a focus fade doesn't cut those support cables! Aieeeee! Heavy train down!
Take cover behind that shipping crate for cover men. ONOS! Oh noes get out of there before-- *onos pushes car against wall squishing the marines between the wall and the crate, squishy*
Fade picks up a marine and lets him go with acceleration upwards at 100ft above the ground. Gravity kill FTW!
The possiblities are endless... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
But would players end up with different poses since bodies are handled client-side?
Other physics props are always good since without them maps would seem completely dead and static. A problem might be that throughout the course of a long game, physics props that are meticulously arranged by a mapper would end up spread out on the floor after less than a minute (who can resist knocking over a physics prop?) leaving rooms looking plain for the rest of the game. CS:S can get away with it since rounds are relatively short and all props are reset every few minutes.
I don't want stuff like explosive barrels which would disappear after one use and stay gone for the rest of an hour long game.
Marines don't die, they just fade away. No bodies.
I can see that too much infestation would inhibit navigation. But I would hate to see NS 2 under utilize DI as the concept has so much potential. I am no computer programmer but I would love to see that an area firmly dominated by the aliens be thoroughly infested with growth, almost changing the room entirely. As you move further away from alien dominated territory the growth should start to dissipate, still being present (so incoming humans would know they were heading deeper into the heart of the alien manifestation) but be less thick with more gaps in the growth, finally stopping at a certain point, not too far away from the actual front line. Less advantages would be provided to the aliens as they move further and further away from heavier infested areas.
I've noticed that this idea hasn't been mentioned much but I think it might be an idea to not have the DI recede too fast as on coming humans successfully fight deeper and deeper into the alien territory, pushing back the aliens and their growth. The infestation should definitely start dying out, but not to the point that it dies at a sychronised pace of the human advance. I'd love to be able to play the humans and enter a room that has been massively infested but see the infestation slowly but surely die out. Playing a human that is always in a metallic surrounding would be kind of boring and it'd be nice to see the aliens falling back and as they fall back their growth also dies out.