I got into an argument about pgs with someone
Pikminwars
Join Date: 2006-11-07 Member: 58468Members
Join Date: 2006-11-07 Member: 58468Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And was wondering who was right</div>So I'm playing a game of NS, and the comm decides to drop two Arms Labs instead of an obs. I ask him to drop and obs, and he said something to the extent of "I'm not taking advice from you", and about 3 minutes in he drops an obs. I then told him that we couldn't win without phasegates, but he decided upgrades are more important than phasegates. When we lost, he blamed the scores, which I said was because the lack of phasegates(more ramboing/ambushes). At the end he blamed the team for sucking at aiming, and commented how pgs don't magically make you aim better. Now that I think about it, they actually do because you're with more people and you have a better idea of where the enemy is coming from. The commander ended up calling me a noob and changing his name to "Pikminwars is a nub" when we lost.
Anyways, which is more important: full upgrades or phasegates?
Anyways, which is more important: full upgrades or phasegates?
Comments
There is no right or wrong, but if you can put constant pressure on the alien team and deny them their second hive for long enough an ups rush will work. But it usually comes at a prize: Because your marines lack PGs, you need to make shure they stay alive or else they will spend most of their time walking around. So make shure to med regularly and med with precision. You need the res to keep 2 ALs constantly busy. So every single ressource point counts.
As an overall statement: A succesfull 2 AL games requires a better comm than a "standard" game.
Edit: And dont forget to hand out welder and 1-2 SGs. You want to make shure that you get the most out of early UPS.
But the comm should adapt to his team. If he sees his team dropping like flies, he should think about that second IP, if he sees they can't use their ears correctly, he should get MT, etc. Pubs aren't competitive, and it's no fun for a team to get owned.
In short: Get some upgrades, and depending on the situation, either PG or upgrades.
NS is not about res, frags or mapcontrol.. its about one thing and one thing only.. TIME.
You can do whatever you want given enought time. Your goal should always be to do the most usefull amount of actions in the least amount of time while forcing the other team to do the least amount of usefull actions in the most amount of time.
Now whatever makes your team play by this rule is the way to go. If that means they die alot and need PGs to save time, get em. If that means they can live with medspam and ups and no PGs, do it. Whatever.. just obey that golden rule.
And it works for kharaa aswell. Its all about time. With time you can get all other subgoals like res and mapcontrol, denying the team those said subgoals.
So I'm playing a game of NS, and the comm decides to drop two Arms Labs instead of an obs. I ask him to drop and obs, and he said something to the extent of "I'm not taking advice from you", and about 3 minutes in he drops an obs. I then told him that we couldn't win without phasegates, but he decided upgrades are more important than phasegates. When we lost, he blamed the scores, which I said was because the lack of phasegates(more ramboing/ambushes). At the end he blamed the team for sucking at aiming, and commented how pgs don't magically make you aim better. Now that I think about it, they actually do because you're with more people and you have a better idea of where the enemy is coming from. The commander ended up calling me a noob and changing his name to "Pikminwars is a nub" when we lost.
Anyways, which is more important: full upgrades or phasegates?
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You were right... but more because the second arms lab is a waste of res. You don't actually need PG's until about 3 minutes into the game, and in NS you shouldn't spend res on something you won't need for 2 more minutes.
Normally I go 1 armslab, A1, halfway through that drop obs, W1, phase as soon as 15 res available after w1. W1 takes a while, and during that time you try to get up your field phasegates, then start W2 as soon as you know what's going on with the second hive, if you have it locked down don't leave your armslab not upgrading for a single second, if you need a seige or shotty rush probably best to wait till after. Sieges and rushes mean alot of RFK for a short period, and recycled stuff afterwards, so you have time to move your upgrades again quickly then.
You can't afford 2 arms labs (30 res) and 2 upgrades (40 res) plus enough RT's to keep 2 labs moving (at least 3, for 45 res) in the early game before your team will need phase gates to push the second hive.
In short
Obs > Mt or phase
AL > W1
is better than
AL > W1
AL > A1
However, if plan A is not working he should have changed to plan B
The point here, folks, is that weapon upgrades are basically useless unless you hand out shotguns (base damage upped from like 170 to 190, then 210 with w2) which benefit significantly from weapon upgrades. However if you don't get armour upgrades first, you won't make it to the point where you can get weapon upgrades.
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shotgun damage:
W0 - 170
W1 - 180 (+5.9%)
W2 - 200 (+17.6%)
W3 - 220 (+29.4%)
shotguns actually benefit less from weapon upgrades than anything else, since their fractional damage gets truncated per pellet.
Lifefrom Fade
Gun Shots to kill
LMG lvl 0 60
LMG lvl 1 55
LMG lvl 2 50
LMG lvl 3 47
SG lvl 0 4
SG lvl 1 4
SG lvl 2 4 (20 hp after 3 shots)
SG lvl 3 3
HMG lvl 0 31
HMG lvl 1 28
HMG lvl 2 25
HMG lvl 3 24
Mines 5
Fade with carapace level 3:
Gun Shots to kill
LMG lvl 0 81
LMG lvl 1 73
LMG lvl 2 67
LMG lvl 3 62
SG lvl 0 5 (most likely 6 with natural regen)
SG lvl 1 5
SG lvl 2 5
SG lvl 3 4
HMG lvl 0 41
HMG lvl 1 37
HMG lvl 2 34
HMG lvl 3 31
Mines 6
The point here, folks, is that weapon upgrades are basically useless unless you hand out shotguns (base damage upped from like 170 to 190, then 210 with w2) which benefit significantly from weapon upgrades. However if you don't get armour upgrades first, you won't make it to the point where you can get weapon upgrades.
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No, skulks vs w0 marines compared to skulks vs w2 marines is a totally different game. You've probably never experienced it since good coms are never going to forget upgrades that long, but if aliens get to hive 2 and start leaping, they are just about impossible to kill with w0 1v1. At w3, even good lifeforms are at some risk taking on single marines.
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I don't care what weapon you have, if an alien can kill you in two hits(or 1 focus hit), you're dead.
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Ya, that's why we go A1 first. Simply put it's more advantageous to survive that one extra bite then anything the early weapons upgrades provide. Ignore the weapons upgrades after A1 though, and when the fades and onos come out you can't kill them, which bascily screws you over no matter how many bites and swipes you can take. Seriously. Even if you deck out a whole team of marines with HA, if they don't have guns and armor upgrades and they are fighting fades they might as well be sitting ducks.