I got into an argument about pgs with someone

PikminwarsPikminwars Members Join Date: 2006-11-07 Member: 58468Posts: 137
And was wondering who was right
So I'm playing a game of NS, and the comm decides to drop two Arms Labs instead of an obs. I ask him to drop and obs, and he said something to the extent of "I'm not taking advice from you", and about 3 minutes in he drops an obs. I then told him that we couldn't win without phasegates, but he decided upgrades are more important than phasegates. When we lost, he blamed the scores, which I said was because the lack of phasegates(more ramboing/ambushes). At the end he blamed the team for sucking at aiming, and commented how pgs don't magically make you aim better. Now that I think about it, they actually do because you're with more people and you have a better idea of where the enemy is coming from. The commander ended up calling me a noob and changing his name to "Pikminwars is a nub" when we lost.

Anyways, which is more important: full upgrades or phasegates?
Nothing is impossible, as long as you can imagine it! That's what being a scientist is all about! -Professor Farnsworth

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Comments

  • FaskaliaFaskalia Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Posts: 2,405
    edited April 2007
    I have rushed UPS with 2 ALs before and won. But I have also lost UPS rushes ^^
    There is no right or wrong, but if you can put constant pressure on the alien team and deny them their second hive for long enough an ups rush will work. But it usually comes at a prize: Because your marines lack PGs, you need to make shure they stay alive or else they will spend most of their time walking around. So make shure to med regularly and med with precision. You need the res to keep 2 ALs constantly busy. So every single ressource point counts.

    As an overall statement: A succesfull 2 AL games requires a better comm than a "standard" game.

    Edit: And dont forget to hand out welder and 1-2 SGs. You want to make shure that you get the most out of early UPS.
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 30 2008, 03:51 PM) »
    The only similarity to Ground Control is that instead of arriving from a building, your dudes arrive from the sky. Why does that merit a meh?
    QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 20 2007, 04:38 PM) »
    You can mince it anyway you like, but if a government can take it a way then it doesn't really matter if it is a right or a privilege, does it?
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Members Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Posts: 4,943 Advanced user
    Well, you don't need phase gates straight off if the team is dominating, but they're more than just a commodity and you should get them ASAP. Having only phasetech and no upgrades is an even worse idea, but you can survive without phase gates early on in the game if marines are suffering very low casualties and (for example) they have had their first higher lifeforms die stupidly or you've just taken a head start.

    But the comm should adapt to his team. If he sees his team dropping like flies, he should think about that second IP, if he sees they can't use their ears correctly, he should get MT, etc. Pubs aren't competitive, and it's no fun for a team to get owned.

    In short: Get some upgrades, and depending on the situation, either PG or upgrades.
    -signed-
  • LazyEyeLazyEye Members, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 32959Posts: 137
    Two armslabs is overkill in most situations. The only reason to have two armslabs is if your swimming in res, thus controling most of the map. The only way you control most of the map is if A) Your marines don't die or B) You have phase gates in key locations. Also map control is easily lost without phasegates. Another down fall of two armslabs (or even arms/obs) at the start of the game is you wont have res to drop more RT.
  • MrMakaveliMrMakaveli Members Join Date: 2004-05-06 Member: 28509Posts: 216
    Usually you don't want to get an obs and an arms lab right away because it's too expensive to make full use of either one. It's the comm's choice if he wants to go for quick a1 or quick pgs.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I put it in my Commanders Guide, I said it before....

    NS is not about res, frags or mapcontrol.. its about one thing and one thing only.. TIME.

    You can do whatever you want given enought time. Your goal should always be to do the most usefull amount of actions in the least amount of time while forcing the other team to do the least amount of usefull actions in the most amount of time.

    Now whatever makes your team play by this rule is the way to go. If that means they die alot and need PGs to save time, get em. If that means they can live with medspam and ups and no PGs, do it. Whatever.. just obey that golden rule.

    And it works for kharaa aswell. Its all about time. With time you can get all other subgoals like res and mapcontrol, denying the team those said subgoals.
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  • KainTSAKainTSA Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Posts: 315
    While his strat might work sometimes, I certainly wouldn't call you a nub for complaining that you had no obs. Armor 1 is of course going to be a first research option with one arms lab, by adding a 2nd arms lab he is basically choosing to give you Weapons 1 in place of phase tech. Yeah...
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  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Members Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Posts: 7,019
    QUOTE(Pikminwars @ Apr 21 2007, 03:10 PM) »

    So I'm playing a game of NS, and the comm decides to drop two Arms Labs instead of an obs. I ask him to drop and obs, and he said something to the extent of "I'm not taking advice from you", and about 3 minutes in he drops an obs. I then told him that we couldn't win without phasegates, but he decided upgrades are more important than phasegates. When we lost, he blamed the scores, which I said was because the lack of phasegates(more ramboing/ambushes). At the end he blamed the team for sucking at aiming, and commented how pgs don't magically make you aim better. Now that I think about it, they actually do because you're with more people and you have a better idea of where the enemy is coming from. The commander ended up calling me a noob and changing his name to "Pikminwars is a nub" when we lost.

    Anyways, which is more important: full upgrades or phasegates?

    You were right... but more because the second arms lab is a waste of res. You don't actually need PG's until about 3 minutes into the game, and in NS you shouldn't spend res on something you won't need for 2 more minutes.

    Normally I go 1 armslab, A1, halfway through that drop obs, W1, phase as soon as 15 res available after w1. W1 takes a while, and during that time you try to get up your field phasegates, then start W2 as soon as you know what's going on with the second hive, if you have it locked down don't leave your armslab not upgrading for a single second, if you need a seige or shotty rush probably best to wait till after. Sieges and rushes mean alot of RFK for a short period, and recycled stuff afterwards, so you have time to move your upgrades again quickly then.

    You can't afford 2 arms labs (30 res) and 2 upgrades (40 res) plus enough RT's to keep 2 labs moving (at least 3, for 45 res) in the early game before your team will need phase gates to push the second hive.
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  • MisereMisere Members Join Date: 2004-03-28 Member: 27568Posts: 202 Fully active user
    Second arms lab is only needed if your swimming in res. In this case then I would get obs anyway. More over unless you have a welder or two out and IN USE. Then armor upgrades only help for the first time the marine is damaged. While W1 and MT are perment boosters.

    In short

    Obs > Mt or phase
    AL > W1

    is better than

    AL > W1
    AL > A1

    However, if plan A is not working he should have changed to plan B
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  • KainTSAKainTSA Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Posts: 315
    I'm going to have to disagree with you on W1 before A1. W1 recuces the lmg bullets required to kill a skulk by something like 2 (I don't remember the exact #). Whereas A1 increases the bites a para's marine can take from 2 to 3. Even if it only takes effect for the first skirmish, it still helps more than the small damage increase seen by w1. In order for W1 to be worth it you'd have to immediately rush W2 (which does inc damage significantly) and by that point you might see 2 hit kills by fades with armor 0.

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  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Banned Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Posts: 938
    The point here, folks, is that weapon upgrades are basically useless unless you hand out shotguns (base damage upped from like 170 to 190, then 210 with w2) which benefit significantly from weapon upgrades. However if you don't get armour upgrades first, you won't make it to the point where you can get weapon upgrades.
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  • DirmDirm Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31025Posts: 113
    edited May 2007
    QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ May 3 2007, 02:30 PM) »

    The point here, folks, is that weapon upgrades are basically useless unless you hand out shotguns (base damage upped from like 170 to 190, then 210 with w2) which benefit significantly from weapon upgrades. However if you don't get armour upgrades first, you won't make it to the point where you can get weapon upgrades.

    shotgun damage:
    W0 - 170
    W1 - 180 (+5.9%)
    W2 - 200 (+17.6%)
    W3 - 220 (+29.4%)

    shotguns actually benefit less from weapon upgrades than anything else, since their fractional damage gets truncated per pellet.
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  • LazyEyeLazyEye Members, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 32959Posts: 137
    More numbers, all values are 1 or 2 hives.

    Lifefrom Fade
    Gun Shots to kill
    LMG lvl 0 60
    LMG lvl 1 55
    LMG lvl 2 50
    LMG lvl 3 47

    SG lvl 0 4
    SG lvl 1 4
    SG lvl 2 4 (20 hp after 3 shots)
    SG lvl 3 3

    HMG lvl 0 31
    HMG lvl 1 28
    HMG lvl 2 25
    HMG lvl 3 24

    Mines 5

    Fade with carapace level 3:
    Gun Shots to kill
    LMG lvl 0 81
    LMG lvl 1 73
    LMG lvl 2 67
    LMG lvl 3 62

    SG lvl 0 5 (most likely 6 with natural regen)
    SG lvl 1 5
    SG lvl 2 5
    SG lvl 3 4

    HMG lvl 0 41
    HMG lvl 1 37
    HMG lvl 2 34
    HMG lvl 3 31

    Mines 6
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Members Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Posts: 7,019
    edited May 2007
    QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ May 3 2007, 04:30 PM) »

    The point here, folks, is that weapon upgrades are basically useless unless you hand out shotguns (base damage upped from like 170 to 190, then 210 with w2) which benefit significantly from weapon upgrades. However if you don't get armour upgrades first, you won't make it to the point where you can get weapon upgrades.

    No, skulks vs w0 marines compared to skulks vs w2 marines is a totally different game. You've probably never experienced it since good coms are never going to forget upgrades that long, but if aliens get to hive 2 and start leaping, they are just about impossible to kill with w0 1v1. At w3, even good lifeforms are at some risk taking on single marines.
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  • NiebelungNiebelung Members, Constellation Join Date: 2006-11-12 Member: 58565Posts: 75
    I don't care what weapon you have, if an alien can kill you in two hits(or 1 focus hit), you're dead.

    [/hyperbole]
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  • AnimeLOLAnimeLOL Members Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58275Posts: 118 Fully active user
    I only opt for 2 armslabs after the w2/a1 stage and I have good res flow. I belive the Obs is EXTREMELY important. Knowing where to shoot and anticipate alien moves based on scanner sweeps or mt is just as or more important than using 5 less bullets. I think you will be able to get more bullets into an alien based on location intel than w2 instead of w1, or w3 instead of w2.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Members Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Posts: 7,019
    QUOTE(Niebelung @ May 6 2007, 02:48 AM) »

    I don't care what weapon you have, if an alien can kill you in two hits(or 1 focus hit), you're dead.

    [/hyperbole]

    Ya, that's why we go A1 first. Simply put it's more advantageous to survive that one extra bite then anything the early weapons upgrades provide. Ignore the weapons upgrades after A1 though, and when the fades and onos come out you can't kill them, which bascily screws you over no matter how many bites and swipes you can take. Seriously. Even if you deck out a whole team of marines with HA, if they don't have guns and armor upgrades and they are fighting fades they might as well be sitting ducks.
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