I think my thread needs more <i>teamwork</i>. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I didn't realize everybody was going to be <i>that</i> touchy about each others posts.
<!--quoteo(post=1617453:date=Mar 28 2007, 05:50 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 28 2007, 05:50 AM) [snapback]1617453[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ZiGGY, go play on BAD or G4B2S and see how far playing "smart" will get you. You are always going to have to confront marines in the game and in those situations, it comes down to reflexes. You either have them or you don't. You'd wonder why 80% of the time, games in these servers are skewed, when all they had to do is play "smart". <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> highly doubt that you're able to play smartly
<!--quoteo(post=1617770:date=Mar 29 2007, 06:35 PM:name=Golden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Golden @ Mar 29 2007, 06:35 PM) [snapback]1617770[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm confused, when did I say that every idea had to be perfect? Way to completely miss the point of my post. Read it again and maybe you'll figure it out. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Erm, you need to understand that whenever a new feature is tried, it will not be perfect. As long as it is made, it can be modified with patches and betas. I'm not a specific method here; I'm looking at the goal. This goal is to have some system that helps balance team games. You're saying it can't be done because it doesn't have cons?
I've listed the cons in the other thread about some of the methods to get this system going. For instance, if we automatically choose the teams for players, there would be no point in the readyroom. There will definitely be other problems and bugs that rise up if this idea were to be implemented, but that's just that - IF it was implemented. We aren't there yet. So stop assuming that we know the future because the truth is that even Blizzard who makes million selling games revises new additions.
<!--quoteo(post=1617775:date=Mar 29 2007, 10:10 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 29 2007, 10:10 PM) [snapback]1617775[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think my thread needs more <i>teamwork</i>. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I didn't realize everybody was going to be <i>that</i> touchy about each others posts. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY INTEGRITY!
Smood I think he's saying that the people who make these brave and wonderful ideas rarely think through any practical application of them.
HOLY C*** dude, STOP POSTING. This is the fourth thread tonight that i'm following at your heels, completely awed at our ineptitude in comprehending such straightforward comments. You ALWAYS go off on the most RANDOM tangents that may ever so slightly barely if-the-cosmos-align MIGHT be related to the actual topic at hand, and you freak out about them. Listen to people, and for gods sake, stop acting so arrogant.
<!--quoteo(post=1617813:date=Mar 29 2007, 10:40 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 29 2007, 10:40 PM) [snapback]1617813[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> HOLY C*** dude, STOP POSTING. This is the fourth thread tonight that i'm following at your heels, completely awed at our ineptitude in comprehending such straightforward comments. You ALWAYS go off on the most RANDOM tangents that may ever so slightly barely if-the-cosmos-align MIGHT be related to the actual topic at hand, and you freak out about them. Listen to people, and for gods sake, stop acting so arrogant.
**edit: This is about smood. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, I'm freaking out now?
<!--quoteo(post=1617103:date=Mar 26 2007, 04:37 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 26 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]1617103[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> This is a long standing trend in NS. Whenever a new community member gives and idea, several people will find it necessary to flame him/her without fully listening and think of what benefits it could merit as instead of just the consequences. New ideas are always going to be rough. When implemented they aren't as extreme as they may first sound.
So why are we in general so hostile to new ideas in a mod that has been ever-evolving? I think it's human nature to fear the unknown. And then we tend to exaggerate ideas and take what they could mean to the extreme.
Discuss. (and please stay on topic) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people only give ideas that will enable either just themselves or a shallow portion of the community that does not hold any statistical significance to the community as a large.
Furthermore I see that a lot of balance changes come about from bad games that they author's have. A narrow view that contains too much bias to be considered legit.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I think I will agree with the topics title. We are afraid of change. I am gona be slefish and think we all are till I atleast get comment on some old suggestions I made once from the devs. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1618064:date=Mar 31 2007, 06:23 PM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Mar 31 2007, 06:23 PM) [snapback]1618064[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think I will agree with the topics title. We are afraid of change. I am gona be slefish and think we all are till I atleast get comment on some old suggestions I made once from the devs. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the devs took the time to reply to every suggestion ever made, nothing would ever be changed because they wouldn't have the time to code any of it.
That's why I've started on a campaign to test new ideas through plugins before implementing them. No excuses for slacking then because it's already coded. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Oops I guess my secret is out now. Ah well.
<!--quoteo(post=1618078:date=Mar 31 2007, 09:13 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 31 2007, 09:13 PM) [snapback]1618078[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's why I've started on a campaign to test new ideas through plugins before implementing them. No excuses for slacking then because it's already coded. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Oops I guess my secret is out now. Ah well. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wanted to do that but balance changes I wanted to create were not able to be coded by plugin.
I've seen ns 1.0 res mode moved to 3.0, I think its possible change for example the lifeform speeds and attacks. Is that the maximium effect plugins can have?
Hardly Bacillus. Metamod creates a hook in the Half-Life engine. You can screw with the source code as much as C++ allows you to, it's just that it also has to run and work with the game engine your are trying. It also needs to be fun and stable if it's going to be popular, tbh. Some sophisticated plugins like ExtraLevels3 and EntMod (aka xmenu) horribly imbalance the game even more, partly due to developer hubris. (devs thinking that because they created it and thereby they are divine in knowing better than anybody trying to give feedback) This fatal flaw ahd ruined many games. Those that embrace feedback and contructive criticism are far more successful in the end.
If you go too extreme you might as well make your own mod, which is where Zunni went with creating Intelligent Design: <a href="http://www.idmod.net/About.html" target="_blank">http://www.idmod.net/About.html</a> Check it out. It has many of the things you all want for NS in an all new modification.
NS 1.04 = good. NS 2 (and onwards) = not so good. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If 1.04 was so amazingly good, then why do 1.04 servers sit empty 99% of the time?
These forums definitely are afraid of change, but that may be a symptom rather than a plague. As this thread has demonstrated, this particular forum is vicious and relentless. The general attitude is overwhelmingly negative, making this place a graveyard for all sorts of things. The headstones mark the burials of great ideas, horrible ideas, members, and even communities, because there's always someone who wants it dead and will attempt to carry through. The complexity of Natural-selection and the nature of games cast a grave mist over the cemetery, frustrating people's desire for clean solutions and clear right-wrong distinctions.
Mm, metaphor. Maybe a bit goofy, but it works.
Here are a few of Natural-selection's complexities: -strategy, tactics, skill, and everything in between all on one field -extremely asymmetrical factions (Flayra and his minions deserve trophies for making this work) -talented mappers who must balance playability and art -attack and defense tactics that are convenient to script -vast differences between new and old game versions
Many of these serve to make game balance a nightmare as the game morphs on different scales: player abilities, server size, game versions, plugins, game time, maps, and so on. They also tend to introduce several facets for each argument, such as the classic "fun > balance" post, and even more prominent, they spawn two or three factions on each scale. So there's someone to oppose and someone to support just about everything.
Sadly, you rarely see someone argue that 1.04 did some things right and 3.2 has done better elsewhere. So while there's always someone ready to support or oppose, there's often nobody looking for the best answers. You hear people every now and then yelling at the mappers to straighten their wall architecture for the skulks, and you hear others yelling back, but there aren't many posts asserting mixed or unique stances. Likewise, there's this supposed clanner versus pubber feud that burns on both sides' petty arrogance and refuses to recognize anybody who would compromise between their hidebound stances: "newbie scum want to change the game to their benefit" and "level the playing field so it's easier to win." Forgive the caricatures: if in doubt, you're not the problem. But few argue that we should do away with those axioms and consider each suggested improvement on its own merits rather than by the posters' expressed allegiance.
That's just an example of what goes on in many other arguments around these forums, and that's why every idea seems to go down in flames. One faction or another will shout until the thread turns into a crazed brawl. Is this a major problem? Nah; it's more of a minor-moderate problem in our fairly large microcosm. Am I being an ivory-tower liberal philosopher? Heck yes, and there are (well-deserved?) flames headed my way for it. But think about it a bit; hopefully somebody will catch on.
I'd like to be cool with everyone, but either you sound arrogant like me, or you get shotdown by the other punks here.
Someone praises the game, clanners and the like are jolly. Random pubber comes here and say something, suddenly the rats come out and start accusing, "BECAUSE I ASSUME YOU HAVE NO SKILL, I CAN'T READ THE ACTUALLY WORDS ON YOUR POST". And then they make the thread do a 360 where they question the skill of the poster, rather than what he's posting. I can't have discussions with these pigs.
My stance is I love +movement. I love it because it helps make the game EASIER, which in turn allows more people to play fade better, which further lowers the skill gap in the game. I'd vouch for Stix's idea to bind mouse 2 as the reload/alien movement key. This would change the game immensely. In fact, my friend who is terrible at NS easily got to the top of the board with this simply change. I wonder how many out there still do not know this feature.
BUT, I'd like this philosophy of making things easier, again I point at +movement, apply on the marine team such as helping people aim. But here we go again with the, "OMG JUST PLAY BETTOR" or "GAMES SUPPOSED TO BE BALANCED for 6v6" crap.
All I see from this game is fades and aiming. You help one, so perhaps you can help the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1618229:date=Apr 1 2007, 11:14 PM:name=ChimpZealot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimpZealot @ Apr 1 2007, 11:14 PM) [snapback]1618229[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If 1.04 was so amazingly good, then why do 1.04 servers sit empty 99% of the time? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a server is empty, no one will join it.
Thus the server remains empty.
Thus no one joins it.
Repeat.
Result? People say "###### this" and play v3.whateverwe'reonatm because they can easily get a good, large sized game going without much hassle.
<!--quoteo(post=1618240:date=Apr 1 2007, 07:46 PM:name=semipsychotic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(semipsychotic @ Apr 1 2007, 07:46 PM) [snapback]1618240[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> These forums definitely are afraid of change, but that may be a symptom rather than a plague. As this thread has demonstrated, this particular forum is vicious and relentless. The general attitude is overwhelmingly negative, making this place a graveyard for all sorts of things. The headstones mark the burials of great ideas, horrible ideas, members, and even communities, because there's always someone who wants it dead and will attempt to carry through. The complexity of Natural-selection and the nature of games cast a grave mist over the cemetery, frustrating people's desire for clean solutions and clear right-wrong distinctions.
Mm, metaphor. Maybe a bit goofy, but it works.
Here are a few of Natural-selection's complexities: -strategy, tactics, skill, and everything in between all on one field -extremely asymmetrical factions (Flayra and his minions deserve trophies for making this work) -talented mappers who must balance playability and art -attack and defense tactics that are convenient to script -vast differences between new and old game versions
Many of these serve to make game balance a nightmare as the game morphs on different scales: player abilities, server size, game versions, plugins, game time, maps, and so on. They also tend to introduce several facets for each argument, such as the classic "fun > balance" post, and even more prominent, they spawn two or three factions on each scale. So there's someone to oppose and someone to support just about everything.
Sadly, you rarely see someone argue that 1.04 did some things right and 3.2 has done better elsewhere. So while there's always someone ready to support or oppose, there's often nobody looking for the best answers. You hear people every now and then yelling at the mappers to straighten their wall architecture for the skulks, and you hear others yelling back, but there aren't many posts asserting mixed or unique stances. Likewise, there's this supposed clanner versus pubber feud that burns on both sides' petty arrogance and refuses to recognize anybody who would compromise between their hidebound stances: "newbie scum want to change the game to their benefit" and "level the playing field so it's easier to win." Forgive the caricatures: if in doubt, you're not the problem. But few argue that we should do away with those axioms and consider each suggested improvement on its own merits rather than by the posters' expressed allegiance.
That's just an example of what goes on in many other arguments around these forums, and that's why every idea seems to go down in flames. One faction or another will shout until the thread turns into a crazed brawl. Is this a major problem? Nah; it's more of a minor-moderate problem in our fairly large microcosm. Am I being an ivory-tower liberal philosopher? Heck yes, and there are (well-deserved?) flames headed my way for it. But think about it a bit; hopefully somebody will catch on. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting the entire post since I want to emphasize that we all need to read it. I think it's the best posts I've seen yet in this thread. Can we get some feedback on it?
<!--quoteo(post=1617410:date=Mar 28 2007, 05:33 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 28 2007, 05:33 AM) [snapback]1617410[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Replacing blink with say ACID ROCKET will reduce the skill required to play as an effective fade. But why is this a bad thing? Let's roll back time to say... 1.04. Fades had this! O that's right! The game WAS playable. The only person that blocks you from seeing this idea as a reality is yourself. It has been done and it WAS accepted. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying things like this make you lose credibility. Please, just stop talking. You are by far the most misinformed player in the history of natural selection (besides necrophix espresso). PLEASE, take the time you spend posting on the NS forums to have someone teach you to be halfway decent at the game, instead of walker skulking marines and crying when they kill your terrible lifeforms. If you would just listen for a moment instead of being stubborn, then you'd actually learn something about the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1618434:date=Apr 2 2007, 01:54 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 2 2007, 01:54 PM) [snapback]1618434[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Quoting the entire post since I want to emphasize that we all need to read it. I think it's the best posts I've seen yet in this thread. Can we get some feedback on it? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Might be true for some people.
Im not afraid of changes, there is many things i want changed but i am afraid of bad changes.
<!--quoteo(post=1618496:date=Apr 2 2007, 05:59 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrueVeritas @ Apr 2 2007, 05:59 PM) [snapback]1618496[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Saying things like this make you lose credibility. Please, just stop talking. You are by far the most misinformed player in the history of natural selection (besides necrophix espresso). PLEASE, take the time you spend posting on the NS forums to have someone teach you to be halfway decent at the game, instead of walker skulking marines and crying when they kill your terrible lifeforms. If you would just listen for a moment instead of being stubborn, then you'd actually learn something about the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> seconded
<!--quoteo(post=1618496:date=Apr 2 2007, 06:59 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TrueVeritas @ Apr 2 2007, 06:59 PM) [snapback]1618496[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Saying things like this make you lose credibility. [...flaming...] PLEASE, take the time you spend posting on the NS forums to have someone teach you [...more flaming...] If you would just listen for a moment instead of being stubborn, then you'd actually learn something about the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Third-ed. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Not to offend you buddy, but you need your credibility because sometimes you <i>DO</i> make very good suggestions and points.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited April 2007
If you have a good idea for Natural Selection, it isn't the community you have to convince but the developers. We like to think that we are the ones who sift through the noise to find the signal, the ones who try to strike a balance between the various directions our sub-communities wish to pull the game. The single biggest mistake most people make is to get caught in a pitched battle with those who are diametrically opposed to their suggestions. Look at any long topic on these forums and you'll see 4-5 people boring the rest of the community with their pedantry and t1t-for-tat one-upmanship. It is much better to present a well argued post and then mainly ignore those who seek to derail your topic into a dispute. Never feed the trolls.
Well, that defeats the point of discussions here. We might as well all write letters to Flayra and co and hope something comes about.
I'm for change, an example being +movement. It makes the game easier, which helps anybody who tries to fade. Features that make the game easy, make the game better. If there's something I'd like to say to the devs, it's to continue this path of intuitive improvements.
I feel that skulks are too weak and that the game becomes balanced once fades and onoses are reached. Perhaps the lerk is the missing piece, but even that can die fairly quickly. I'd prefer to see something done about the early game where marines can easily expand to key areas of the map like double or a hive.
But at the same time, you have marines that are absolutely terrible at aiming... What can be done to help these people? The crux of NS comes down to fade and marine battles. You help the fade blink, so perhaps you can help the marines aim as well.
Some people come to the forums and believe NS is going off into the elitist road. Then you have the rats come out and derail the thread with their skill BS. I really don't know why people have to act like punks and revert threads about changing the game into an attack upon the skill level of the poster. They just do. Don't feed the trolls I guess.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
No, that isn't the case at all. Discussion is still fruitful in terms of reaching concensus, understanding, developing a point etc. The point I am making is that those of you who take a point and won't let go of it like a rabid dog with a bone are wasting your time if your intention is to produce change with the game. The topics with the usual suspects at each others throats get ignored pretty quickly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If there's something I'd like to say to the devs, it's to continue this path of intuitive improvements. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Because all these improvements we've done have been totally by accident.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> But at the same time, you have marines that are absolutely terrible at aiming... What can be done to help these people? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Practice. You can't help a person aim, apart from say, more accurate crosshairs. Oh wait :|
It isn't skill BS. This game is an FPS. People need to learn how to aim. I am not a clanner, nor am I elitist, NS isn't an RPG. We do not role dice in NS, we move crosshairs over targets and press fire.
Perhaps the reason you are meeting so much resistance is because your ideas are generally really bad.
Comments
ZiGGY, go play on BAD or G4B2S and see how far playing "smart" will get you. You are always going to have to confront marines in the game and in those situations, it comes down to reflexes. You either have them or you don't. You'd wonder why 80% of the time, games in these servers are skewed, when all they had to do is play "smart".
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
highly doubt that you're able to play smartly
I'm confused, when did I say that every idea had to be perfect? Way to completely miss the point of my post. Read it again and maybe you'll figure it out.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Erm, you need to understand that whenever a new feature is tried, it will not be perfect. As long as it is made, it can be modified with patches and betas. I'm not a specific method here; I'm looking at the goal. This goal is to have some system that helps balance team games. You're saying it can't be done because it doesn't have cons?
I've listed the cons in the other thread about some of the methods to get this system going. For instance, if we automatically choose the teams for players, there would be no point in the readyroom. There will definitely be other problems and bugs that rise up if this idea were to be implemented, but that's just that - IF it was implemented. We aren't there yet. So stop assuming that we know the future because the truth is that even Blizzard who makes million selling games revises new additions.
I think my thread needs more <i>teamwork</i>. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I didn't realize everybody was going to be <i>that</i> touchy about each others posts.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY INTEGRITY!
Smood I think he's saying that the people who make these brave and wonderful ideas rarely think through any practical application of them.
**edit: This is about smood.
HOLY C*** dude, STOP POSTING. This is the fourth thread tonight that i'm following at your heels, completely awed at our ineptitude in comprehending such straightforward comments. You ALWAYS go off on the most RANDOM tangents that may ever so slightly barely if-the-cosmos-align MIGHT be related to the actual topic at hand, and you freak out about them. Listen to people, and for gods sake, stop acting so arrogant.
**edit: This is about smood.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, I'm freaking out now?
This is a long standing trend in NS. Whenever a new community member gives and idea, several people will find it necessary to flame him/her without fully listening and think of what benefits it could merit as instead of just the consequences. New ideas are always going to be rough. When implemented they aren't as extreme as they may first sound.
So why are we in general so hostile to new ideas in a mod that has been ever-evolving? I think it's human nature to fear the unknown. And then we tend to exaggerate ideas and take what they could mean to the extreme.
Discuss. (and please stay on topic)
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people only give ideas that will enable either just themselves or a shallow portion of the community that does not hold any statistical significance to the community as a large.
Furthermore I see that a lot of balance changes come about from bad games that they author's have. A narrow view that contains too much bias to be considered legit.
I think I will agree with the topics title. We are afraid of change. I am gona be slefish and think we all are till I atleast get comment on some old suggestions I made once from the devs. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the devs took the time to reply to every suggestion ever made, nothing would ever be changed because they wouldn't have the time to code any of it.
That's why I've started on a campaign to test new ideas through plugins before implementing them. No excuses for slacking then because it's already coded. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Oops I guess my secret is out now. Ah well.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wanted to do that but balance changes I wanted to create were not able to be coded by plugin.
I've seen ns 1.0 res mode moved to 3.0, I think its possible change for example the lifeform speeds and attacks. Is that the maximium effect plugins can have?
If you go too extreme you might as well make your own mod, which is where Zunni went with creating Intelligent Design: <a href="http://www.idmod.net/About.html" target="_blank">http://www.idmod.net/About.html</a> Check it out. It has many of the things you all want for NS in an all new modification.
NS 1.04 = good.
NS 2 (and onwards) = not so good.
Look what happened.
NS 1.04 = good.
NS 2 (and onwards) = not so good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look what happened.
<insert biased opinion here>
<insert more biased opinion here>
Look what happened.
NS 1.04 = good.
NS 2 (and onwards) = not so good.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 1.04 was so amazingly good, then why do 1.04 servers sit empty 99% of the time?
Mm, metaphor. Maybe a bit goofy, but it works.
Here are a few of Natural-selection's complexities:
-strategy, tactics, skill, and everything in between all on one field
-extremely asymmetrical factions (Flayra and his minions deserve trophies for making this work)
-talented mappers who must balance playability and art
-attack and defense tactics that are convenient to script
-vast differences between new and old game versions
Many of these serve to make game balance a nightmare as the game morphs on different scales: player abilities, server size, game versions, plugins, game time, maps, and so on. They also tend to introduce several facets for each argument, such as the classic "fun > balance" post, and even more prominent, they spawn two or three factions on each scale. So there's someone to oppose and someone to support just about everything.
Sadly, you rarely see someone argue that 1.04 did some things right and 3.2 has done better elsewhere. So while there's always someone ready to support or oppose, there's often nobody looking for the best answers. You hear people every now and then yelling at the mappers to straighten their wall architecture for the skulks, and you hear others yelling back, but there aren't many posts asserting mixed or unique stances. Likewise, there's this supposed clanner versus pubber feud that burns on both sides' petty arrogance and refuses to recognize anybody who would compromise between their hidebound stances: "newbie scum want to change the game to their benefit" and "level the playing field so it's easier to win." Forgive the caricatures: if in doubt, you're not the problem. But few argue that we should do away with those axioms and consider each suggested improvement on its own merits rather than by the posters' expressed allegiance.
That's just an example of what goes on in many other arguments around these forums, and that's why every idea seems to go down in flames. One faction or another will shout until the thread turns into a crazed brawl. Is this a major problem? Nah; it's more of a minor-moderate problem in our fairly large microcosm. Am I being an ivory-tower liberal philosopher? Heck yes, and there are (well-deserved?) flames headed my way for it. But think about it a bit; hopefully somebody will catch on.
Someone praises the game, clanners and the like are jolly. Random pubber comes here and say something, suddenly the rats come out and start accusing, "BECAUSE I ASSUME YOU HAVE NO SKILL, I CAN'T READ THE ACTUALLY WORDS ON YOUR POST". And then they make the thread do a 360 where they question the skill of the poster, rather than what he's posting. I can't have discussions with these pigs.
My stance is I love +movement. I love it because it helps make the game EASIER, which in turn allows more people to play fade better, which further lowers the skill gap in the game. I'd vouch for Stix's idea to bind mouse 2 as the reload/alien movement key. This would change the game immensely. In fact, my friend who is terrible at NS easily got to the top of the board with this simply change. I wonder how many out there still do not know this feature.
BUT, I'd like this philosophy of making things easier, again I point at +movement, apply on the marine team such as helping people aim. But here we go again with the, "OMG JUST PLAY BETTOR" or "GAMES SUPPOSED TO BE BALANCED for 6v6" crap.
All I see from this game is fades and aiming. You help one, so perhaps you can help the other.
If 1.04 was so amazingly good, then why do 1.04 servers sit empty 99% of the time?
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If a server is empty, no one will join it.
Thus the server remains empty.
Thus no one joins it.
Repeat.
Result? People say "###### this" and play v3.whateverwe'reonatm because they can easily get a good, large sized game going without much hassle.
These forums definitely are afraid of change, but that may be a symptom rather than a plague. As this thread has demonstrated, this particular forum is vicious and relentless. The general attitude is overwhelmingly negative, making this place a graveyard for all sorts of things. The headstones mark the burials of great ideas, horrible ideas, members, and even communities, because there's always someone who wants it dead and will attempt to carry through. The complexity of Natural-selection and the nature of games cast a grave mist over the cemetery, frustrating people's desire for clean solutions and clear right-wrong distinctions.
Mm, metaphor. Maybe a bit goofy, but it works.
Here are a few of Natural-selection's complexities:
-strategy, tactics, skill, and everything in between all on one field
-extremely asymmetrical factions (Flayra and his minions deserve trophies for making this work)
-talented mappers who must balance playability and art
-attack and defense tactics that are convenient to script
-vast differences between new and old game versions
Many of these serve to make game balance a nightmare as the game morphs on different scales: player abilities, server size, game versions, plugins, game time, maps, and so on. They also tend to introduce several facets for each argument, such as the classic "fun > balance" post, and even more prominent, they spawn two or three factions on each scale. So there's someone to oppose and someone to support just about everything.
Sadly, you rarely see someone argue that 1.04 did some things right and 3.2 has done better elsewhere. So while there's always someone ready to support or oppose, there's often nobody looking for the best answers. You hear people every now and then yelling at the mappers to straighten their wall architecture for the skulks, and you hear others yelling back, but there aren't many posts asserting mixed or unique stances. Likewise, there's this supposed clanner versus pubber feud that burns on both sides' petty arrogance and refuses to recognize anybody who would compromise between their hidebound stances: "newbie scum want to change the game to their benefit" and "level the playing field so it's easier to win." Forgive the caricatures: if in doubt, you're not the problem. But few argue that we should do away with those axioms and consider each suggested improvement on its own merits rather than by the posters' expressed allegiance.
That's just an example of what goes on in many other arguments around these forums, and that's why every idea seems to go down in flames. One faction or another will shout until the thread turns into a crazed brawl. Is this a major problem? Nah; it's more of a minor-moderate problem in our fairly large microcosm. Am I being an ivory-tower liberal philosopher? Heck yes, and there are (well-deserved?) flames headed my way for it. But think about it a bit; hopefully somebody will catch on.
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Quoting the entire post since I want to emphasize that we all need to read it. I think it's the best posts I've seen yet in this thread. Can we get some feedback on it?
Replacing blink with say ACID ROCKET will reduce the skill required to play as an effective fade. But why is this a bad thing? Let's roll back time to say... 1.04. Fades had this! O that's right! The game WAS playable. The only person that blocks you from seeing this idea as a reality is yourself. It has been done and it WAS
accepted.
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Saying things like this make you lose credibility. Please, just stop talking. You are by far the most misinformed player in the history of natural selection (besides necrophix espresso). PLEASE, take the time you spend posting on the NS forums to have someone teach you to be halfway decent at the game, instead of walker skulking marines and crying when they kill your terrible lifeforms. If you would just listen for a moment instead of being stubborn, then you'd actually learn something about the game.
Quoting the entire post since I want to emphasize that we all need to read it. I think it's the best posts I've seen yet in this thread. Can we get some feedback on it?
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Might be true for some people.
Im not afraid of changes, there is many things i want changed but i am afraid of bad changes.
Saying things like this make you lose credibility. Please, just stop talking. You are by far the most misinformed player in the history of natural selection (besides necrophix espresso). PLEASE, take the time you spend posting on the NS forums to have someone teach you to be halfway decent at the game, instead of walker skulking marines and crying when they kill your terrible lifeforms. If you would just listen for a moment instead of being stubborn, then you'd actually learn something about the game.
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seconded
Saying things like this make you lose credibility. [...flaming...] PLEASE, take the time you spend posting on the NS forums to have someone teach you [...more flaming...] If you would just listen for a moment instead of being stubborn, then you'd actually learn something about the game.
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Third-ed. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> Not to offend you buddy, but you need your credibility because sometimes you <i>DO</i> make very good suggestions and points.
I'm for change, an example being +movement. It makes the game easier, which helps anybody who tries to fade. Features that make the game easy, make the game better. If there's something I'd like to say to the devs, it's to continue this path of intuitive improvements.
I feel that skulks are too weak and that the game becomes balanced once fades and onoses are reached. Perhaps the lerk is the missing piece, but even that can die fairly quickly. I'd prefer to see something done about the early game where marines can easily expand to key areas of the map like double or a hive.
But at the same time, you have marines that are absolutely terrible at aiming... What can be done to help these people? The crux of NS comes down to fade and marine battles. You help the fade blink, so perhaps you can help the marines aim as well.
Some people come to the forums and believe NS is going off into the elitist road. Then you have the rats come out and derail the thread with their skill BS. I really don't know why people have to act like punks and revert threads about changing the game into an attack upon the skill level of the poster. They just do. Don't feed the trolls I guess.
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If there's something I'd like to say to the devs, it's to continue this path of intuitive improvements.
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Yes. Because all these improvements we've done have been totally by accident.
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But at the same time, you have marines that are absolutely terrible at aiming... What can be done to help these people?
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Practice. You can't help a person aim, apart from say, more accurate crosshairs. Oh wait :|
It isn't skill BS. This game is an FPS. People need to learn how to aim. I am not a clanner, nor am I elitist, NS isn't an RPG. We do not role dice in NS, we move crosshairs over targets and press fire.
Perhaps the reason you are meeting so much resistance is because your ideas are generally really bad.