<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm for change, an example being +movement. It makes the game easier, which helps anybody who tries to fade. Features that make the game easy, make the game better. If there's something I'd like to say to the devs, it's to continue this path of intuitive improvements. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what, exactly, are you asking the devs to add in? I for one love the +movement addition. It's definately a great way to make fading more accessible for newer players. What you continually seem to be asking is to add a +aim for marines. No one wants to see an aimbot integrated in the game when you can easily point your crosshair at a skulk. Instead of having 20+ posts saying '+movement is really great, more stuff like that, elitists clanners are stupid because they are too good', give some ideas at what you would like the devs to do. The only other thing I can think of that may make it easier for you, smood, would be to put in a +bhop script in the game so you finally wouldn't have to walker skulk all those marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I feel that skulks are too weak and that the game becomes balanced once fades and onoses are reached. Perhaps the lerk is the missing piece, but even that can die fairly quickly. I'd prefer to see something done about the early game where marines can easily expand to key areas of the map like double or a hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS in its current form is structured where the aliens play defensively in the early game until they can get the second hive up, at which they may proceed to push the marines back. Skulking isn't weak at all - you just failed to realize that almost any lifeform is about shortening the distance between you and the marine. Why wouldn't you die to a marine that carries two weapons that are easily capable of shooting across any large map? Skulking early game is all about ambushing, baiting, and teaming up with lerks and other skulks to kill the marine early pressure. Why would you want a bland game where every part is balanced? Or would you rather that aliens got even MORE of a buff early game, and when the second hive went up they would be unstoppable? I really can't see where you're going with this idea.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> But at the same time, you have marines that are absolutely terrible at aiming... What can be done to help these people? The crux of NS comes down to fade and marine battles. You help the fade blink, so perhaps you can help the marines aim as well. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, implement aimbot. Good idea smoodcroozn. While we're at it, lets add in wallhacks and ESP to all the other players that are too stubborn to listen to advice and get better. But seriously, you haven't given any ideas as to what YOU think would help the newer players.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Some people come to the forums and believe NS is going off into the elitist road. Then you have the rats come out and derail the thread with their skill BS. I really don't know why people have to act like punks and revert threads about changing the game into an attack upon the skill level of the poster. They just do. Don't feed the trolls I guess. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These people that are attacking you on the forums are doing it for a reason. Your ignorance in your posts is unbelievable - so much, that everyone in IRC land posts quotes of what you say and laughs at the idiotic responses you attempt to make to defend yourself.
<b>A better player: Smood, nothing you just said made any sense, there's absolutely no reason for this, stop saying the game is flawed as an excuse that you're ###### terrible at this game. SmoodCroozn: OMG YOU DIDN'T READ WHAT I SED AT ALL LOL WTH YOU ARE ALL ELITISTS JERKS DAMN CLANNERS STOP SPAMMING U SUCK I AM GOD</b>
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Please, PLEASE for once in your forum life ask someone to sit down and teach you the basic mechanics of NS before you make even more of a fool of yourself.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
Oh, and: <!--quoteo(post=1618603:date=Apr 3 2007, 11:16 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 3 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]1618603[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Practice. You can't help a person aim, apart from say, more accurate crosshairs. Oh wait :|
It isn't skill BS. This game is an FPS. People need to learn how to aim. I am not a clanner, nor am I elitist, NS isn't an RPG. We do not role dice in NS, we move crosshairs over targets and press fire.
Perhaps the reason you are meeting so much resistance is because your ideas are generally really bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^ That just about sums it up.
Hopefully he will finally get it. Shame that it went as far as a dev to have to come and tell him to SUYF. If he still doesn't listen and understand, probably best to ban his account and save the NS community the embarassment...
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
That's not what I'm saying at all. The advice goes to all of you equally. Why do you insist on feeding these discussions every single time they are posted? What annoys you so much? Can you not simply ignore the points being made? A few of you have been chasing your tails for weeks now with the same conversations every single time. You present your arguments with such disdain but both sides obviously care a lot about what the other side thinks, why else would you all persist for so long in such a pointless conversation.
So there's a non-expert with an opinion on the game. Get over it already.
<!--quoteo(post=1618595:date=Apr 3 2007, 05:52 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 3 2007, 05:52 AM) [snapback]1618595[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If you have a good idea for Natural Selection, it isn't the community you have to convince but the developers. [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence why you'll see my "vote <b><!--coloro:#009900--><span style="color:#009900"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>" or "vote <b><!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>" in topics with new ideas. And often times I offer suggestions or additions for developers to think of and experiment with. But hell I've been doing that for 2 years now and it seems like my votes fall on deaf ears. (yes, talking about developers)
Also why does the development team have such a low opinion of plugins when they act quite well as a means of playtesting a feature. Some of them are horrible or gravely imbalanced, and as such I've started working with those developers one-on-one. But it's a shame to ignore some of those new ideas.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Many of our ideas come from I&S and feedback. I can go through the 3.2 changelog and highlight them, but I think it'd be quicker to list the ones that weren't suggested in some form by the community.
Why do you think we have a low opinion of plugins? We help the plugin community a lot, and even asked sawce to prepare the ns module in advance of 3.2's release so server communities who like to run plugins would have them on release.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1618648:date=Apr 3 2007, 12:20 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 3 2007, 12:20 PM) [snapback]1618648[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's not what I'm saying at all. The advice goes to all of you equally. Why do you insist on feeding these discussions every single time they are posted? What annoys you so much? Can you not simply ignore the points being made? A few of you have been chasing your tails for weeks now with the same conversations every single time. You present your arguments with such disdain but both sides obviously care a lot about what the other side thinks, why else would you all persist for so long in such a pointless conversation.
So there's a non-expert with an opinion on the game. Get over it already. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather see people say an idea is awful than not respond at all and leave only positive replies. I've posted like 2 times on these type of threads and I won't be doing so again, I've said what I need to say to the poster I've quoted in each case. I think the issue a lot of folks have is that people with little clue about NS post absurd ideas and then go on to "defend" them vigorously. I've just settled on seeing these players in game to show them how their ideas are bad in action rather than in text.
<!--quoteo(post=1618682:date=Apr 3 2007, 02:46 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 3 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]1618682[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Why do you think we have a low opinion of plugins? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I guess that's not so much my opinion as it is Depot's (admin of nsmod.org: <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php)" target="_blank">http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php)</a> He's said that at least twice to me that he feels that... wait getting a quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot's reply+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot's reply)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-x5's PM+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(x5's PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They [I was talking about Charlie and Max in particular] might be interested in all the coding stuff. Or at least let Merkaba and Puzl know. I'd invite them but it seems more fitting that you do it since it is <i>your</i> board.
:thumbsup: <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only plugin, for the most part, was territory, and Nemesis Zero was pushing to implemenet it when he was influential.
Puzl checks in often, but overall, the NS Devs have a low opinion of what we do here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I think he feels that it is the Dev team in general and not so much you. Again, you really should talk to him. I've realized I've just made myself the middle man. >< But in any case that's where I guess I'm getting that sentiment from -- my friend Depot.
<!--quoteo(post=1617103:date=Mar 26 2007, 04:37 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 26 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]1617103[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> This is a long standing trend in NS. Whenever a new community member gives and idea, several people will find it necessary to flame him/her without fully listening and think of what benefits it could merit as instead of just the consequences. New ideas are always going to be rough. When implemented they aren't as extreme as they may first sound.
So why are we in general so hostile to new ideas in a mod that has been ever-evolving? I think it's human nature to fear the unknown. And then we tend to exaggerate ideas and take what they could mean to the extreme.
Discuss. (and please stay on topic) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, iv seen a lot of this going on for good ideas, even ideas that turned out to be huge improvements. i can remember when i was suggesting that gorge's web be moved from a 2nd hive ability to a 3rd because a good gorge with carapace and a adren could perma web several heavys at once and let a skulk kill them all. there were loads of people who would say "the gorge isnt doing much though! the skulk is the guy doing the damage! putting web to a 3rd hive ability will push it too late in the game and make it useless! babblers are a key part of the gorge!". some patches later, web was moved, babblers were removed and no one complained.
i think a lot of people have an emotional attachment to NS like it is 'their' game, that it needs to be protected from corruption and that they need to strongly object to anything they dont agree with. i say this because i used to feel this way about NS and still do to a lesser extent because i think at the core, ns is a really, really great game. i think ns is the best idea since RTS (warcraft/c&c totaly changed my view of gaming and computer gaming particularly) but i think ns would be much more main steam if some things were different.
between the community, the game mechanics, and the engine the game uses, i cant understand how newbies could play this game. for someone whos totally new to ns, ns is a lot of work and people are often hostile with newbs because players who dont know what they are doing can often seem counter productive to the game (im thinking about 85% of the commanders out there, new players who rambo with equipment, gorges who unwittingly build the wrong chamber off the start, lerks/fades/onos who dont get any kills because they ran into an experienced group of people)
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Well, the conservatism is definitely there, and is totally natural. However, we have always tried to move the game forward with each release, and have never been afraid to make changes that we deem necessary. In 3.0 there was a huge outcry at the idea of free alien upgrades etc. So, just because a few members shoot your idea down, it doesn't mean it will be ignored. Conversely, an army of people posting "+1" to your suggestion will not increase its chances of getting implemented.
The very best way to get your idea heard is to communicate your suggestion clearly in the opening post. We do read pretty much every I&S at least once, but given the entropy of the typical I&S topic, we tend to not read many of the discussions in detail.
FWIW: NS already has aim assistance in the form of cone of fire. You don't have to aim right on the enemy. Right on is more powerful, but thanks to cone firing, you have a margin of error where you will still hit the enemy -- you'll just do lower damage.
It *would* be nice to get better auditory feedback, but I guess I could just get some custom hit sounds for that. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
There are so many bad plugins this community has brashly come up with and sought to implement. From Lerkspike to Sporemine to XMenu to XPVault and all its derivitives *cough*
When you have an open-source community, you're likely to get far more heaps of trash than you are deep, effectively thought-out positive enhancements. Figure out how to control quality, with branding or a council of multiple communities who vote on the viability of a plugin. XMenu along with many other ill-conceived ideas have given plugins a very bad name with any player who understands balance or skill curves. Learn how to consistently produce innovative quality gameplay modifications, <i>then</i> whine on the forums about how everyone is so bigoted against your gameplay mods.
When I mean intuitive changes, I mean changes that help the community as a whole than just a small group of players. +movement. Great idea because it helps NEWER faders as well as those who fade well before. But when blink was first introduced, it was a hard thing for many players to use. It's true that many had adapted to the blink, slash, metabolize switching, but now you've shown us that you could do something to help make this process easier. But thanks for your oh-so clever sarcastic remark.
To help marines aim... hmm... I don't know where to start with this. The goal of course would be to help aiming in some form. This would have relatively no effect on the already skilled aimers. But for those who have trouble, it could help them out a bit. I'd have to think this one out more. Put this on hold.
I don't see why a lot of people here have to act like jerks to new players when they post how they feel about the game. So I guess this sort of behavior is a good thing puzl? Or is this one of my "bad ideas"?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
About the only thing we can do to help marine players to aim better is to have a more audible hit sound. In 3.2 we improved hitboxes to match the visual counterpart, we did more performance improvements to help the average 'hitreg', we added more precise crosshairs to help all players aim ( providing tweak all skilled players had in 3.1 via customisation ). There's nothing you can directly change to improve the aiming process for marines.
And while we are on the subject, your comparison is bogus to begin with. +movement helps fade to move, not aim. Fades have even bigger problems aiming than marines do. We use the standard SDK hull trace attack that has all kinds of quirks in it, and there is definite room for improvement there. Marine aiming is about as intuitive as it can be, with a few small exceptions.
So, when all you have to offer is some nebulous goal of "making aiming easier" with ZERO substantial suggestions on how to get there, then don't expect an army of people lining up to support your argument.
As for my sarcastic remark, well, you'll have to forgive me for taking the opportunity to point out that about the only suggestion you make of any substance has been something core to our design tenets from day one.
I do agree that a lot of people act like jerks, and that is not acceptable, but do not confuse a strong argument with rude behaviour. Those who abuse posters with insults and idiocy get temp suspended, irrespective of who they abuse.
<!--quoteo(post=1619014:date=Apr 5 2007, 02:52 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Apr 5 2007, 02:52 AM) [snapback]1619014[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To help marines aim... hmm... I don't know where to start with this. The goal of course would be to help aiming in some form. This would have relatively no effect on the already skilled aimers. But for those who have trouble, it could help them out a bit. I'd have to think this one out more. Put this on hold. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering that nearly everyone who's played NS has started on some other FPS, I don't think there is such a demand for increased ability to aim; I played CS first, and coming to NS, I found the aiming obnoxiously easy by comparison.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1619014:date=Apr 5 2007, 03:52 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Apr 5 2007, 03:52 AM) [snapback]1619014[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't see why a lot of people here have to act like jerks to new players when they post how they feel about the game. So I guess this sort of behavior is a good thing puzl? Or is this one of my "bad ideas"? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of people act like jerks not because new people are posting how they feel about the game, they're being jerks because after they reply to a new player, they get "why are you countering my ideas, you obviously don't know how to play ns," except it's usually done with bad spelling, grammar, and is full of obvious factual and conceptual flaws that anyone who <b>does</b> know about NS can see pretty easily. Take four-five years of that type of reaction, and when someone new jumps in and starts it all over, people just give up. I started to do this last week and caught myself.
At this point I've played NS for a pretty long time in every situation from commanding and lerking in Exigent versus Terror matchups to pubbing on 50lvl lolcombat servers, so for someone to tell me I don't know how to play NS is laughable at best, and that goes for a lot of other folks posting here as well. It takes a bit of fortitude to not be condescending to people after something like that, so forgive those of us that seem like "jerks."
A lot of problems with the game are imagined or socially constructed problems, not problems with the game itself. From the posts currently here in general discussion I can point out quite a few examples of this, SoulSteel's reply to me in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=2532447298585378304&showtopic=101027" target="_blank">this thread</a> being a quick example. People like me are not being patronizing when we offer to teach people to play NS, I can 100% guarantee I can show people at least 5 things they did not know about NS in a 20 minute lesson on playing marines, commanding, skulking, or lerking, and I'm a "bad" marine and skulk by competitive standards. There is an amazing amount of stuff you can learn about NS if you have the time to explore by yourself or if you have someone that already knows teach you, the amount of time you have been playing is pretty irrelevant in comparison to how much you know about NS.
Oh yeah Mm Still don't know what I was waiting for And my time was running wild A million dead-end streets and Every time I thought I'd got it made It seemed the taste was not so sweet So I turned myself to face me But I've never caught a glimpse Of how the others must see the faker I'm much too fast to take that test
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face the strange) Ch-ch-Changes Don't want to be a richer man Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face the strange) Ch-ch-Changes Just gonna have to be a different man Time may change me But I can't trace time
I watch the ripples change their size But never leave the stream Of warm impermanence So the days float through my eyes But still the days seem the same And these children that you spit on As they try to change their worlds Are immune to your consultations They're quite aware of what they're going through
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face the strange) Ch-ch-Changes Don't tell them to grow up and out of it Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face the strange) Ch-ch-Changes Where's your shame You've left us up to our necks in it Time may change me But you can't trace time
Strange fascination, fascinating me Ah changes are taking the pace I'm going through
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face the strange) Ch-ch-Changes Oh, look out you rock 'n rollers Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes (Turn and face the strange) Ch-ch-Changes Pretty soon now you're gonna get older Time may change me But I can't trace time I said that time may change me But I can't trace time
Comments
I'm for change, an example being +movement. It makes the game easier, which helps anybody who tries to fade. Features that make the game easy, make the game better. If there's something I'd like to say to the devs, it's to continue this path of intuitive improvements.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then what, exactly, are you asking the devs to add in? I for one love the +movement addition. It's definately a great way to make fading more accessible for newer players. What you continually seem to be asking is to add a +aim for marines. No one wants to see an aimbot integrated in the game when you can easily point your crosshair at a skulk. Instead of having 20+ posts saying '+movement is really great, more stuff like that, elitists clanners are stupid because they are too good', give some ideas at what you would like the devs to do. The only other thing I can think of that may make it easier for you, smood, would be to put in a +bhop script in the game so you finally wouldn't have to walker skulk all those marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I feel that skulks are too weak and that the game becomes balanced once fades and onoses are reached. Perhaps the lerk is the missing piece, but even that can die fairly quickly. I'd prefer to see something done about the early game where marines can easily expand to key areas of the map like double or a hive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS in its current form is structured where the aliens play defensively in the early game until they can get the second hive up, at which they may proceed to push the marines back. Skulking isn't weak at all - you just failed to realize that almost any lifeform is about shortening the distance between you and the marine. Why wouldn't you die to a marine that carries two weapons that are easily capable of shooting across any large map? Skulking early game is all about ambushing, baiting, and teaming up with lerks and other skulks to kill the marine early pressure. Why would you want a bland game where every part is balanced? Or would you rather that aliens got even MORE of a buff early game, and when the second hive went up they would be unstoppable? I really can't see where you're going with this idea.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
But at the same time, you have marines that are absolutely terrible at aiming... What can be done to help these people? The crux of NS comes down to fade and marine battles. You help the fade blink, so perhaps you can help the marines aim as well.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, implement aimbot. Good idea smoodcroozn. While we're at it, lets add in wallhacks and ESP to all the other players that are too stubborn to listen to advice and get better. But seriously, you haven't given any ideas as to what YOU think would help the newer players.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Some people come to the forums and believe NS is going off into the elitist road. Then you have the rats come out and derail the thread with their skill BS. I really don't know why people have to act like punks and revert threads about changing the game into an attack upon the skill level of the poster. They just do. Don't feed the trolls I guess.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These people that are attacking you on the forums are doing it for a reason. Your ignorance in your posts is unbelievable - so much, that everyone in IRC land posts quotes of what you say and laughs at the idiotic responses you attempt to make to defend yourself.
<b>A better player: Smood, nothing you just said made any sense, there's absolutely no reason for this, stop saying the game is flawed as an excuse that you're ###### terrible at this game.
SmoodCroozn: OMG YOU DIDN'T READ WHAT I SED AT ALL LOL WTH YOU ARE ALL ELITISTS JERKS DAMN CLANNERS STOP SPAMMING U SUCK I AM GOD</b>
<b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Please, PLEASE for once in your forum life ask someone to sit down and teach you the basic mechanics of NS before you make even more of a fool of yourself.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
Oh, and:
<!--quoteo(post=1618603:date=Apr 3 2007, 11:16 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Apr 3 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]1618603[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Practice. You can't help a person aim, apart from say, more accurate crosshairs. Oh wait :|
It isn't skill BS. This game is an FPS. People need to learn how to aim. I am not a clanner, nor am I elitist, NS isn't an RPG. We do not role dice in NS, we move crosshairs over targets and press fire.
Perhaps the reason you are meeting so much resistance is because your ideas are generally really bad.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ That just about sums it up.
So there's a non-expert with an opinion on the game. Get over it already.
If you have a good idea for Natural Selection, it isn't the community you have to convince but the developers. [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence why you'll see my "vote <b><!--coloro:#009900--><span style="color:#009900"><!--/coloro-->yes<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>" or "vote <b><!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro-->no<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>" in topics with new ideas. And often times I offer suggestions or additions for developers to think of and experiment with. But hell I've been doing that for 2 years now and it seems like my votes fall on deaf ears. (yes, talking about developers)
Also why does the development team have such a low opinion of plugins when they act quite well as a means of playtesting a feature. Some of them are horrible or gravely imbalanced, and as such I've started working with those developers one-on-one. But it's a shame to ignore some of those new ideas.
Why do you think we have a low opinion of plugins? We help the plugin community a lot, and even asked sawce to prepare the ns module in advance of 3.2's release so server communities who like to run plugins would have them on release.
That's not what I'm saying at all. The advice goes to all of you equally. Why do you insist on feeding these discussions every single time they are posted? What annoys you so much? Can you not simply ignore the points being made? A few of you have been chasing your tails for weeks now with the same conversations every single time. You present your arguments with such disdain but both sides obviously care a lot about what the other side thinks, why else would you all persist for so long in such a pointless conversation.
So there's a non-expert with an opinion on the game. Get over it already.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd rather see people say an idea is awful than not respond at all and leave only positive replies. I've posted like 2 times on these type of threads and I won't be doing so again, I've said what I need to say to the poster I've quoted in each case. I think the issue a lot of folks have is that people with little clue about NS post absurd ideas and then go on to "defend" them vigorously. I've just settled on seeing these players in game to show them how their ideas are bad in action rather than in text.
Why do you think we have a low opinion of plugins?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I guess that's not so much my opinion as it is Depot's (admin of nsmod.org: <a href="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php)" target="_blank">http://www.nsmod.org/forums/index.php)</a> He's said that at least twice to me that he feels that... wait getting a quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot's reply+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot's reply)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-x5's PM+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(x5's PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They [I was talking about Charlie and Max in particular] might be interested in all the coding stuff. Or at least let Merkaba and Puzl know. I'd invite them but it seems more fitting that you do it since it is <i>your</i> board.
:thumbsup: <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only plugin, for the most part, was territory, and Nemesis Zero was pushing to implemenet it when he was influential.
Puzl checks in often, but overall, the NS Devs have a low opinion of what we do here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I think he feels that it is the Dev team in general and not so much you. Again, you really should talk to him. I've realized I've just made myself the middle man. >< But in any case that's where I guess I'm getting that sentiment from -- my friend Depot.
This is a long standing trend in NS. Whenever a new community member gives and idea, several people will find it necessary to flame him/her without fully listening and think of what benefits it could merit as instead of just the consequences. New ideas are always going to be rough. When implemented they aren't as extreme as they may first sound.
So why are we in general so hostile to new ideas in a mod that has been ever-evolving? I think it's human nature to fear the unknown. And then we tend to exaggerate ideas and take what they could mean to the extreme.
Discuss. (and please stay on topic)
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yeah, iv seen a lot of this going on for good ideas, even ideas that turned out to be huge improvements. i can remember when i was suggesting that gorge's web be moved from a 2nd hive ability to a 3rd because a good gorge with carapace and a adren could perma web several heavys at once and let a skulk kill them all. there were loads of people who would say "the gorge isnt doing much though! the skulk is the guy doing the damage! putting web to a 3rd hive ability will push it too late in the game and make it useless! babblers are a key part of the gorge!". some patches later, web was moved, babblers were removed and no one complained.
i think a lot of people have an emotional attachment to NS like it is 'their' game, that it needs to be protected from corruption and that they need to strongly object to anything they dont agree with. i say this because i used to feel this way about NS and still do to a lesser extent because i think at the core, ns is a really, really great game. i think ns is the best idea since RTS (warcraft/c&c totaly changed my view of gaming and computer gaming particularly) but i think ns would be much more main steam if some things were different.
between the community, the game mechanics, and the engine the game uses, i cant understand how newbies could play this game. for someone whos totally new to ns, ns is a lot of work and people are often hostile with newbs because players who dont know what they are doing can often seem counter productive to the game (im thinking about 85% of the commanders out there, new players who rambo with equipment, gorges who unwittingly build the wrong chamber off the start, lerks/fades/onos who dont get any kills because they ran into an experienced group of people)
The very best way to get your idea heard is to communicate your suggestion clearly in the opening post. We do read pretty much every I&S at least once, but given the entropy of the typical I&S topic, we tend to not read many of the discussions in detail.
It *would* be nice to get better auditory feedback, but I guess I could just get some custom hit sounds for that. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
When you have an open-source community, you're likely to get far more heaps of trash than you are deep, effectively thought-out positive enhancements. Figure out how to control quality, with branding or a council of multiple communities who vote on the viability of a plugin. XMenu along with many other ill-conceived ideas have given plugins a very bad name with any player who understands balance or skill curves. Learn how to consistently produce innovative quality gameplay modifications, <i>then</i> whine on the forums about how everyone is so bigoted against your gameplay mods.
To help marines aim... hmm... I don't know where to start with this. The goal of course would be to help aiming in some form. This would have relatively no effect on the already skilled aimers. But for those who have trouble, it could help them out a bit. I'd have to think this one out more. Put this on hold.
I don't see why a lot of people here have to act like jerks to new players when they post how they feel about the game. So I guess this sort of behavior is a good thing puzl? Or is this one of my "bad ideas"?
And while we are on the subject, your comparison is bogus to begin with. +movement helps fade to move, not aim. Fades have even bigger problems aiming than marines do. We use the standard SDK hull trace attack that has all kinds of quirks in it, and there is definite room for improvement there. Marine aiming is about as intuitive as it can be, with a few small exceptions.
So, when all you have to offer is some nebulous goal of "making aiming easier" with ZERO substantial suggestions on how to get there, then don't expect an army of people lining up to support your argument.
As for my sarcastic remark, well, you'll have to forgive me for taking the opportunity to point out that about the only suggestion you make of any substance has been something core to our design tenets from day one.
I do agree that a lot of people act like jerks, and that is not acceptable, but do not confuse a strong argument with rude behaviour. Those who abuse posters with insults and idiocy get temp suspended, irrespective of who they abuse.
To help marines aim... hmm... I don't know where to start with this. The goal of course would be to help aiming in some form. This would have relatively no effect on the already skilled aimers. But for those who have trouble, it could help them out a bit. I'd have to think this one out more. Put this on hold.
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Considering that nearly everyone who's played NS has started on some other FPS, I don't think there is such a demand for increased ability to aim; I played CS first, and coming to NS, I found the aiming obnoxiously easy by comparison.
I don't see why a lot of people here have to act like jerks to new players when they post how they feel about the game. So I guess this sort of behavior is a good thing puzl? Or is this one of my "bad ideas"?
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A lot of people act like jerks not because new people are posting how they feel about the game, they're being jerks because after they reply to a new player, they get "why are you countering my ideas, you obviously don't know how to play ns," except it's usually done with bad spelling, grammar, and is full of obvious factual and conceptual flaws that anyone who <b>does</b> know about NS can see pretty easily. Take four-five years of that type of reaction, and when someone new jumps in and starts it all over, people just give up. I started to do this last week and caught myself.
At this point I've played NS for a pretty long time in every situation from commanding and lerking in Exigent versus Terror matchups to pubbing on 50lvl lolcombat servers, so for someone to tell me I don't know how to play NS is laughable at best, and that goes for a lot of other folks posting here as well. It takes a bit of fortitude to not be condescending to people after something like that, so forgive those of us that seem like "jerks."
A lot of problems with the game are imagined or socially constructed problems, not problems with the game itself. From the posts currently here in general discussion I can point out quite a few examples of this, SoulSteel's reply to me in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=2532447298585378304&showtopic=101027" target="_blank">this thread</a> being a quick example. People like me are not being patronizing when we offer to teach people to play NS, I can 100% guarantee I can show people at least 5 things they did not know about NS in a 20 minute lesson on playing marines, commanding, skulking, or lerking, and I'm a "bad" marine and skulk by competitive standards. There is an amazing amount of stuff you can learn about NS if you have the time to explore by yourself or if you have someone that already knows teach you, the amount of time you have been playing is pretty irrelevant in comparison to how much you know about NS.
Oh yeah
Mm
Still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets and
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But I've never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
I'm much too fast to take that test
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-Changes
Don't want to be a richer man
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-Changes
Just gonna have to be a different man
Time may change me
But I can't trace time
I watch the ripples change their size
But never leave the stream
Of warm impermanence
So the days float through my eyes
But still the days seem the same
And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-Changes
Don't tell them to grow up and out of it
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-Changes
Where's your shame
You've left us up to our necks in it
Time may change me
But you can't trace time
Strange fascination, fascinating me
Ah changes are taking the pace I'm going through
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-Changes
Oh, look out you rock 'n rollers
Ch-ch-ch-ch-Changes
(Turn and face the strange)
Ch-ch-Changes
Pretty soon now you're gonna get older
Time may change me
But I can't trace time
I said that time may change me
But I can't trace time