You are more than welcome! I think the reason people do get so heated in these forums is that they care about NS so much and value it as a great game!! Be encouraged by criticisms because it just shows that people want ns to forever be one of the best games out there, and shudder at the thought of it being no more.
This latest patch was badly needed... i think a lot of the community just need time to appreciate the changes.
Anyway thanx for a great game... better than most of the games ive payed money for lol.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Yeah, we bear no ill-will towards anyone who comes here with a genuine motivation to help us improve the game, no matter how they present their message. We aren't finished with 3.2 yet, so keep coming with the feedback. Not only will there be the 3.2.x patches to address balance issues, but we are still strongly considering doing a small map-pack with the best of community created maps.
The entire process of publicly testing 3.2 has been very beneficial to us as a team, not only did we get some great feedback from people but it also helped us rebuild the friendships and relationships that had gone a little stale during the 12 months of downtime.
Ever since I came into PT i've loved the changes that were going into 3.2, although I have noticed that people still underestimate the 3.2 fades and lerks. One poit which was mentioned in ehre about fade hit n run, it's harder to hit and run in 3.2 because in 3.1 fades were like bullets and still didn't run out fo energy if you're experienced enough (no scripts needed). I also feel that +movement is a huge bonus to people gettig into fading or who could never grasp going 'slot1;slot2;+attack;lastinv;+attack;lastinv;+attack;slot3;+attack;lastinv;+attack;slot1:attack' in order to blink > swipe > blink > meta > blink > swipe the perfect focus fade combo <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
But my favourite part of new the fade is the increased air movement combined with pretty much endless adrenaline, which if used properly make you very ahrd to hit.
On the lerk front, with the 20% increase in up speed with the release of 3.2 final lerks can once again barrel roll pancake giving them much more survivability, but saying that they're still nowhere near the LOL FLYING tanks of 3.1 and that's a GOOD thing.
Even with 1.04 nostalgia i'd still go to say that this is my favourite build i've played, the only thing it misses is the decent sized community (both competitive and public) it deserves but I guess we'll just have to wait for NS2 to have that again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
And I completely forgot to mention the part where all the alien chambers are now equally good choices as 1st and second chambers (although dc + sc is still risky due to the slow pace of onoses if they get HA).
<!--quoteo(post=1615893:date=Mar 20 2007, 11:42 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Mar 20 2007, 11:42 PM) [snapback]1615893[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> QFT. Let's take major league baseball as an example. Lets say that instead of a bat, when you step up to the plate you now use a rolling pin from your wife's kitchen to hit the ball. But that's ok, because people will adjust to it. Never mind the fact that you've retardified the game. We shouldn't complain about that, we should just adapt to all new gameplay no matter how terrible, without question. You don't have to neuter the depth of the game to make it more condusive to newbies. Newbies are farmed with intuitive rewarding gameplay. They don't even see the real backend of the skill curve. I used to think this way too, that you could bring new players in by making the game <i>easier</i> but after thinking harder about it, that's not the way to go about it since newbies will never notice it even if you do. The only thing it does for them is allow them to kill good players which destroys the entire point of a competitive game. See sig. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you HIGH? Blinking + meta + swipe was insanely simple to BEGIN WITH... Ever heard of Quickswitch? Or hell... cl_fastswitch 0 (or whatever the variable is) and actually... ya know... USE YOUR PINKIE TO HIT THE # KEY WHILE YOUR RING FINGER IS ON THE DIRECTIONAL WASD KEYS?! ...
it was ONLY hard to retarded people new to the game who shouldn't be TOUCHING fade until they learn how to play to begin with.
so i dont get it, just because they changed the fade acceleration a bit and reduced the pancaking lerks you think the whole game is broken? people seem to forget that the balance of 3.1 was tipped slightly toward the aliens, 3.2 is tipping it back toward center by nerfing the aliens a bit. but you can still win with them, you just cant be so aggressive now
The game wasn't tipped towards aliens previously... it just meant marines HAD to use teamwork to bring down the lightning fast fades, for example... Drop the rate of fire for blink in HALF and you suddenly have a fade that doesn't require as much coordination to pimpslap in the face.
Reducing the ability of lerks to pancake... Sure, why not, A pancaking lerk (Yes, I was one of those fiendish things) was damn near an exploit... but still... Ugh, Its quarter after 3 in the morning, and i've got a good buzz on so thinking up good points that don't sound like I'm a 12 year old sniveling little choda-muncher is a little difficult. Let me work on this in the ... uh, afternoon I guess, considering the time... lol
Oh, and... A game should NEVER be GEARED towards the "Newbs" ... That puts off the long standing community that has been around since the beginning.
Part of what made this game always so interesting was the high learning curve, yet still entertaining playability (even as a marine getting utterly SLAUGHTERED by aliens... its still fun, right?) for the new players... Whats wrong with having things in the game that require an extra level of hand-eye coordination and muscle memory control training to achieve greatness at? Nothing.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1616625:date=Mar 24 2007, 11:37 AM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 24 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]1616625[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Biasing the requirement for teamwork towards a team that DOES NOT HAVE THE COMMANDER sounds very counterintuitive. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure what the context of that point is, but I've observed/experienced ample precedent for teamwork without a central and agreed-upon leader, both in my gaming and professional "careers". Teamwork without the Commander does not seem at all counterintuitive to me.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1616625:date=Mar 24 2007, 12:37 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 24 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]1616625[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Biasing the requirement for teamwork<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> towards a team that DOES NOT HAVE THE COMMANDER sounds very counterintuitive. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1616630:date=Mar 24 2007, 01:54 PM:name=Wyzcrak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyzcrak @ Mar 24 2007, 01:54 PM) [snapback]1616630[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm not sure what the context of that point is, but I've observed/experienced ample precedent for teamwork without a central and agreed-upon leader, both in my gaming and professional "careers". Teamwork without the Commander does not seem at all counterintuitive to me. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stress on: <b>biasing the requirement for teamwork</b>
In the majority of cases outside your closely knit community, the teamwork on the alien team is dismal most of the time. Now, you might say that marines can be just as bad. However, it is more difficult to work as a team with aliens than to work as a team with marines (i.e. phasegates, commander, ranged weapons, grenades, and more).
So, I hope that you see now that I didn't mean that teamwork without a commander is counterintuitive. In fact, teamwork without a commander is very possible with the right people. However, shifting the significance of teamwork on a team without a leader and with a disadvantage in teamwork enhancing tech is definitely counterintuitive.
<!--quoteo(post=1616625:date=Mar 24 2007, 04:37 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 24 2007, 04:37 PM) [snapback]1616625[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Biasing the requirement for teamwork towards a team that DOES NOT HAVE THE COMMANDER sounds very counterintuitive. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does the commander affect the actual teamwork? Sure the communication must work, the tactic must suit the team and so on, but I've always thought that covering each other, taking hits to protect the low hp rines and such stuff are also teamwork. Aliens are supposed to rely very heavily on teamwork since they don't have that many tactical choises.
Oh well... You posted first. I still don't get why aliens couldn't work as a team. People fail to use even simple things such as parasite. Its bad as marines unable to weld each other. I've never felt its fair to give other team major advantages just because people fail to adapt to anything more difficult than blasting critters with a big gun.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Concur. Thank you for the clarification.
Your comment that the bias was counterintuitive... what was that in response to? I'm not understanding the larger argument you're making. I've clearly missed something.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1616633:date=Mar 24 2007, 02:08 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 24 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]1616633[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How does the commander affect the actual teamwork? Sure the communication must work, the tactic must suit the team and so on, but I've always thought that covering each other, taking hits to protect the low hp rines and such stuff are also teamwork. Aliens are supposed to rely very heavily on teamwork since they don't have that many tactical choises. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see a large discrepancy between the tactical toolset available to the marines vs the aliens. There are differences, but I don't feel like I have that many more options when I'm playing one side vs the other.
How the commander affects the actual teamwork depends, of course, on who the commander is. I know to do many things that another commander might not know to do, and I'm often humbled and educated by the craftsmanship with which my peers lead me when I'm on the ground.
Commanders can scout ahead with their ears, direct players (sometimes in retreat) to mutual waypoints, inform marines about other marines' locations (I know. minimap. But options are good.), remind marines about duties when they're heavily distracted, etc, etc. All of that can affect the actual teamwork.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited March 2007
Note: <u>I am talking in the general sense, in pubs, as opposed to communities and clan play. The pubs are what determine the success of a game and its popularity.</u>
It is already difficult to play as aliens. Aliens must use melee against ranged weapons, which puts them at a disadvantage for a good part of the game (particularly the opening of the game, which is crucial in deciding the mid and end game). The aliens do not have a commander to organize them. The aliens do not have phasegates that can coordinate individual lifeforms into one area quickly (unless you count MCs with hives). They are usually scattered around the map, sometimes teaming up with 1 or 2 other lifeforms to get something done. Alien organization is crucial in order for the alien team to achieve anything.
The marines have the advantage of range for a good part of the game. They have the commander, who can coordinate the players through the command interface. They have phasegates, which serve to concentrate marine forces easily in particular areas of the map. They also have tech that can rip through aliens with ease, especially if there are several marines working together. However, even one good marine can match and usually better any one individual alien lifeform (except onos). These are just the basic observations, but to me it seems that the marines definitely have an advantage when it comes to teamwork. It is more likely that there will be marine teamwork than alien teamwork.
However, despite this, the balance changes (hitbox fixes, lifeform nerfs, removal of telefrag, and many more) since 1.04 have emphasized the requirement for teamwork on the alien team. The game gets harder and harder to successfully play as an alien. I am saying that it should be harder to play as marines.
Onos ruin HA. They're the only real counter to them. Even the best of fades simply cant stand up to a solid group of 4+ HA.
Jetpacks are meant to be a decent counter to Onos. They're FAR from a perfect counter. They still only take about 3 hits from the onos' Gore, and can be devoured actually fairly easily (onos needs to aim low on marines, but if the marine is flying, you're aiming low at him anyways).
The onos still has to play smart. Knowing the map, the onos can pick his battles so that he fights JPs in tight halls (or can force them into them), or where the ceiling architecture tends to snag them.
And a '10 res jp' wont kill an onos. Even a shotty jp doesnt have much of a chance vs onos. You pretty much need an hmg (and im only really talking Cara onos here... anything else is just too risky to be considered, imo).
So its more like, a 25 res marine, easily killed if he's even slightly too aggressive or risky, has a decent chance against an onos. But, jps tend to play less as a team, whereas aliens overall tend to support their onos. Most battles see a JP or two, with one or two LMGs marines support, against an onos and at least a skulk or two, if not a fade and a lerk. Those battles are fantastic, and very balanced, especially res-wise.
I like 3.2. I also lied in my slow things down thread, because the pace feels right once you get a good game going. I played a great series of amazing games last night with my buddy, and they were horrendously close.
The only real time alien teamwork on pubs fails is 16v16, where everyone is victim to the unstoppable mantrains (if you don't knwo what that is www.urbandictionary.com) that is 8+ marines walking in a group with handnades. You must understand NS wasn't made for 32 players the maps just aren't big enough/the res flow isn't right/alien spawn time is too low etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1617184:date=Mar 26 2007, 09:34 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 26 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]1617184[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ok why is it called "lerk pancaking" anyways? I've never understood the origin of that phrase. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk that flies up, hits the ceiling (splat! pancake!) and instantly flies straight down full speed. Repeat until marines dead.
Hard to hit because of movement and harder to hit because of HL hitbox bugs.
If you have 2 rts eaters on the alien team, aliens dominate, I ve seen aliens lose on big and small servers only due to the fact marine rts never go down.
<!--quoteo(post=1616881:date=Mar 25 2007, 10:14 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 25 2007, 10:14 PM) [snapback]1616881[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As long as you play with mediocre to horrible players, any version of the game will have close games. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1615893:date=Mar 20 2007, 11:42 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Mar 20 2007, 11:42 PM) [snapback]1615893[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> QFT. Let's take major league baseball as an example. Lets say that instead of a bat, when you step up to the plate you now use a rolling pin from your wife's kitchen to hit the ball. But that's ok, because people will adjust to it. Never mind the fact that you've retardified the game. We shouldn't complain about that, we should just adapt to all new gameplay no matter how terrible, without question. You don't have to neuter the depth of the game to make it more condusive to newbies. Newbies are farmed with intuitive rewarding gameplay. They don't even see the real backend of the skill curve. I used to think this way too, that you could bring new players in by making the game <i>easier</i> but after thinking harder about it, that's not the way to go about it since newbies will never notice it even if you do. The only thing it does for them is allow them to kill good players which destroys the entire point of a competitive game. See sig. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 100% agree. The +movement is a terrible addition because it means that the "pro" people who could do it by themselves (BLOCKSCRIPTS ON) actually had an achievement and a skill.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Love 3.2
No more pancaking lerks = THANK YOU!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only thing getting rid of pancaking does is increase the disadvantage for aliens and therefore stacking.
<!--quoteo(post=1617184:date=Mar 27 2007, 03:34 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 27 2007, 03:34 AM) [snapback]1617184[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ok why is it called "lerk pancaking" anyways? I've never understood the origin of that phrase. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's taken from UT2006 or at least one of the UT's, which ever one has vehicles in which when you crush someone with a flying one it says 'PANCAKED' iirc. Now I could just be making this up in a confused dehydrated rant, but pretty sure it's right, anyone who plays UT who can confirm ?
And for the guy who said lerks can't pancake anymore they still can... With the 20% speed increase in lerk upspeed with the 3.2 final patch, Lerks now lose barely any speed when climbing, although this is nothing like the 3.0 gaining speed when climbing it is still enough to get a decent barrel rolling pancake going to make you near unhittable (you must have celerity).
<!--quoteo(post=1617607:date=Mar 28 2007, 11:49 PM:name=hybridx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hybridx @ Mar 28 2007, 11:49 PM) [snapback]1617607[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 100% agree. The +movement is a terrible addition because it means that the "pro" people who could do it by themselves (BLOCKSCRIPTS ON) actually had an achievement and a skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like +movement (read: <b>the user interface shouldn't be the challenge in a game, it should be seamless and intuitive, thus my argument that repeated jumping ought to be handled like quake</b>), I don't like the lack of airspeed in lifeforms. They could have been nerfed in a different way, through health or armor or with some unique disadvantage that only they posessed. I just disagree with giving the aliens' awp a spreading burst fire mode, and then enforcing that only that mode be used.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just disagree with giving the aliens' awp a spreading burst fire mode, and then enforcing that only that mode be used.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know if i'm just ebing dense cause i've just woken up but, I don't get what you're sayign there? Are you implying that giving aliens +movement is like giving them an awp with burst fire? And on a slight point no not everyone has to use it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it means that the "pro" people who could do it by themselves (BLOCKSCRIPTS ON) actually had an achievement and a skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm one of those people and and still don't use +movement because i'm too used to my old config, but I personally think that +movement is a great addition to helping new players learn some of the more complicated maneuvers in NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1617835:date=Mar 30 2007, 11:34 AM:name=Laggasaurus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Laggasaurus @ Mar 30 2007, 11:34 AM) [snapback]1617835[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm one of those people and and still don't use +movement because i'm too used to my old config, but I personally think that +movement is a great addition to helping new players learn some of the more complicated maneuvers in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't even bothered trying. I guess it would improve my fading a bit, but I feel quite natural with the hud_fastswitch 1 and 1-4 keys for everything. Still, +movement is one of the best things implemented in ns all time. It makes things more accessible for new gamers and still makes it challenging to master the alien movement skills.
Comments
This latest patch was badly needed... i think a lot of the community just need time to appreciate the changes.
Anyway thanx for a great game... better than most of the games ive payed money for lol.
The entire process of publicly testing 3.2 has been very beneficial to us as a team, not only did we get some great feedback from people but it also helped us rebuild the friendships and relationships that had gone a little stale during the 12 months of downtime.
But my favourite part of new the fade is the increased air movement combined with pretty much endless adrenaline, which if used properly make you very ahrd to hit.
On the lerk front, with the 20% increase in up speed with the release of 3.2 final lerks can once again barrel roll pancake giving them much more survivability, but saying that they're still nowhere near the LOL FLYING tanks of 3.1 and that's a GOOD thing.
Even with 1.04 nostalgia i'd still go to say that this is my favourite build i've played, the only thing it misses is the decent sized community (both competitive and public) it deserves but I guess we'll just have to wait for NS2 to have that again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
And I completely forgot to mention the part where all the alien chambers are now equally good choices as 1st and second chambers (although dc + sc is still risky due to the slow pace of onoses if they get HA).
QFT.
Let's take major league baseball as an example. Lets say that instead of a bat, when you step up to the plate you now use a rolling pin from your wife's kitchen to hit the ball. But that's ok, because people will adjust to it. Never mind the fact that you've retardified the game. We shouldn't complain about that, we should just adapt to all new gameplay no matter how terrible, without question.
You don't have to neuter the depth of the game to make it more condusive to newbies. Newbies are farmed with intuitive rewarding gameplay. They don't even see the real backend of the skill curve. I used to think this way too, that you could bring new players in by making the game <i>easier</i> but after thinking harder about it, that's not the way to go about it since newbies will never notice it even if you do. The only thing it does for them is allow them to kill good players which destroys the entire point of a competitive game. See sig.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you HIGH? Blinking + meta + swipe was insanely simple to BEGIN WITH... Ever heard of Quickswitch? Or hell... cl_fastswitch 0 (or whatever the variable is) and actually... ya know... USE YOUR PINKIE TO HIT THE # KEY WHILE YOUR RING FINGER IS ON THE DIRECTIONAL WASD KEYS?! ...
it was ONLY hard to retarded people new to the game who shouldn't be TOUCHING fade until they learn how to play to begin with.
Reducing the ability of lerks to pancake... Sure, why not, A pancaking lerk (Yes, I was one of those fiendish things) was damn near an exploit... but still... Ugh, Its quarter after 3 in the morning, and i've got a good buzz on so thinking up good points that don't sound like I'm a 12 year old sniveling little choda-muncher is a little difficult. Let me work on this in the ... uh, afternoon I guess, considering the time... lol
Oh, and... A game should NEVER be GEARED towards the "Newbs" ... That puts off the long standing community that has been around since the beginning.
Part of what made this game always so interesting was the high learning curve, yet still entertaining playability (even as a marine getting utterly SLAUGHTERED by aliens... its still fun, right?) for the new players... Whats wrong with having things in the game that require an extra level of hand-eye coordination and muscle memory control training to achieve greatness at? Nothing.
Biasing the requirement for teamwork towards a team that DOES NOT HAVE THE COMMANDER sounds very counterintuitive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what the context of that point is, but I've observed/experienced ample precedent for teamwork without a central and agreed-upon leader, both in my gaming and professional "careers". Teamwork without the Commander does not seem at all counterintuitive to me.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Biasing the requirement for teamwork<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> towards a team that DOES NOT HAVE THE COMMANDER sounds very counterintuitive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1616630:date=Mar 24 2007, 01:54 PM:name=Wyzcrak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyzcrak @ Mar 24 2007, 01:54 PM) [snapback]1616630[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I'm not sure what the context of that point is, but I've observed/experienced ample precedent for teamwork without a central and agreed-upon leader, both in my gaming and professional "careers". Teamwork without the Commander does not seem at all counterintuitive to me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stress on: <b>biasing the requirement for teamwork</b>
In the majority of cases outside your closely knit community, the teamwork on the alien team is dismal most of the time. Now, you might say that marines can be just as bad. However, it is more difficult to work as a team with aliens than to work as a team with marines (i.e. phasegates, commander, ranged weapons, grenades, and more).
So, I hope that you see now that I didn't mean that teamwork without a commander is counterintuitive. In fact, teamwork without a commander is very possible with the right people. However, shifting the significance of teamwork on a team without a leader and with a disadvantage in teamwork enhancing tech is definitely counterintuitive.
Biasing the requirement for teamwork towards a team that DOES NOT HAVE THE COMMANDER sounds very counterintuitive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does the commander affect the actual teamwork? Sure the communication must work, the tactic must suit the team and so on, but I've always thought that covering each other, taking hits to protect the low hp rines and such stuff are also teamwork. Aliens are supposed to rely very heavily on teamwork since they don't have that many tactical choises.
Oh well... You posted first. I still don't get why aliens couldn't work as a team. People fail to use even simple things such as parasite. Its bad as marines unable to weld each other. I've never felt its fair to give other team major advantages just because people fail to adapt to anything more difficult than blasting critters with a big gun.
Your comment that the bias was counterintuitive... what was that in response to? I'm not understanding the larger argument you're making. I've clearly missed something.
How does the commander affect the actual teamwork? Sure the communication must work, the tactic must suit the team and so on, but I've always thought that covering each other, taking hits to protect the low hp rines and such stuff are also teamwork. Aliens are supposed to rely very heavily on teamwork since they don't have that many tactical choises.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see a large discrepancy between the tactical toolset available to the marines vs the aliens. There are differences, but I don't feel like I have that many more options when I'm playing one side vs the other.
How the commander affects the actual teamwork depends, of course, on who the commander is. I know to do many things that another commander might not know to do, and I'm often humbled and educated by the craftsmanship with which my peers lead me when I'm on the ground.
Commanders can scout ahead with their ears, direct players (sometimes in retreat) to mutual waypoints, inform marines about other marines' locations (I know. minimap. But options are good.), remind marines about duties when they're heavily distracted, etc, etc. All of that can affect the actual teamwork.
It is already difficult to play as aliens. Aliens must use melee against ranged weapons, which puts them at a disadvantage for a good part of the game (particularly the opening of the game, which is crucial in deciding the mid and end game). The aliens do not have a commander to organize them. The aliens do not have phasegates that can coordinate individual lifeforms into one area quickly (unless you count MCs with hives). They are usually scattered around the map, sometimes teaming up with 1 or 2 other lifeforms to get something done. Alien organization is crucial in order for the alien team to achieve anything.
The marines have the advantage of range for a good part of the game. They have the commander, who can coordinate the players through the command interface. They have phasegates, which serve to concentrate marine forces easily in particular areas of the map. They also have tech that can rip through aliens with ease, especially if there are several marines working together. However, even one good marine can match and usually better any one individual alien lifeform (except onos). These are just the basic observations, but to me it seems that the marines definitely have an advantage when it comes to teamwork. It is more likely that there will be marine teamwork than alien teamwork.
However, despite this, the balance changes (hitbox fixes, lifeform nerfs, removal of telefrag, and many more) since 1.04 have emphasized the requirement for teamwork on the alien team. The game gets harder and harder to successfully play as an alien. I am saying that it should be harder to play as marines.
Jetpacks are meant to be a decent counter to Onos. They're FAR from a perfect counter. They still only take about 3 hits from the onos' Gore, and can be devoured actually fairly easily (onos needs to aim low on marines, but if the marine is flying, you're aiming low at him anyways).
The onos still has to play smart. Knowing the map, the onos can pick his battles so that he fights JPs in tight halls (or can force them into them), or where the ceiling architecture tends to snag them.
And a '10 res jp' wont kill an onos. Even a shotty jp doesnt have much of a chance vs onos. You pretty much need an hmg (and im only really talking Cara onos here... anything else is just too risky to be considered, imo).
So its more like, a 25 res marine, easily killed if he's even slightly too aggressive or risky, has a decent chance against an onos. But, jps tend to play less as a team, whereas aliens overall tend to support their onos. Most battles see a JP or two, with one or two LMGs marines support, against an onos and at least a skulk or two, if not a fade and a lerk. Those battles are fantastic, and very balanced, especially res-wise.
No more pancaking lerks = THANK YOU!
Ok why is it called "lerk pancaking" anyways? I've never understood the origin of that phrase.
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Lerk that flies up, hits the ceiling (splat! pancake!) and instantly flies straight down full speed. Repeat until marines dead.
Hard to hit because of movement and harder to hit because of HL hitbox bugs.
As long as you play with mediocre to horrible players, any version of the game will have close games.
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Is it just me or was this extremely random?
QFT.
Let's take major league baseball as an example. Lets say that instead of a bat, when you step up to the plate you now use a rolling pin from your wife's kitchen to hit the ball. But that's ok, because people will adjust to it. Never mind the fact that you've retardified the game. We shouldn't complain about that, we should just adapt to all new gameplay no matter how terrible, without question.
You don't have to neuter the depth of the game to make it more condusive to newbies. Newbies are farmed with intuitive rewarding gameplay. They don't even see the real backend of the skill curve. I used to think this way too, that you could bring new players in by making the game <i>easier</i> but after thinking harder about it, that's not the way to go about it since newbies will never notice it even if you do. The only thing it does for them is allow them to kill good players which destroys the entire point of a competitive game. See sig.
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100% agree. The +movement is a terrible addition because it means that the "pro" people who could do it by themselves (BLOCKSCRIPTS ON) actually had an achievement and a skill.
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Love 3.2
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The only thing getting rid of pancaking does is increase the disadvantage for aliens and therefore stacking.
Ok why is it called "lerk pancaking" anyways? I've never understood the origin of that phrase.
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It's taken from UT2006 or at least one of the UT's, which ever one has vehicles in which when you crush someone with a flying one it says 'PANCAKED' iirc. Now I could just be making this up in a confused dehydrated rant, but pretty sure it's right, anyone who plays UT who can confirm ?
And for the guy who said lerks can't pancake anymore they still can... With the 20% speed increase in lerk upspeed with the 3.2 final patch, Lerks now lose barely any speed when climbing, although this is nothing like the 3.0 gaining speed when climbing it is still enough to get a decent barrel rolling pancake going to make you near unhittable (you must have celerity).
100% agree. The +movement is a terrible addition because it means that the "pro" people who could do it by themselves (BLOCKSCRIPTS ON) actually had an achievement and a skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like +movement (read: <b>the user interface shouldn't be the challenge in a game, it should be seamless and intuitive, thus my argument that repeated jumping ought to be handled like quake</b>), I don't like the lack of airspeed in lifeforms. They could have been nerfed in a different way, through health or armor or with some unique disadvantage that only they posessed. I just disagree with giving the aliens' awp a spreading burst fire mode, and then enforcing that only that mode be used.
Don't know if i'm just ebing dense cause i've just woken up but, I don't get what you're sayign there? Are you implying that giving aliens +movement is like giving them an awp with burst fire? And on a slight point no not everyone has to use it.
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I'm one of those people and and still don't use +movement because i'm too used to my old config, but I personally think that +movement is a great addition to helping new players learn some of the more complicated maneuvers in NS.
I'm one of those people and and still don't use +movement because i'm too used to my old config, but I personally think that +movement is a great addition to helping new players learn some of the more complicated maneuvers in NS.
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I haven't even bothered trying. I guess it would improve my fading a bit, but I feel quite natural with the hud_fastswitch 1 and 1-4 keys for everything. Still, +movement is one of the best things implemented in ns all time. It makes things more accessible for new gamers and still makes it challenging to master the alien movement skills.