IDEA: create a coalition of serverops who are dedicated to a purist approach to NS
the prerequisite this coalition will have for admittance is that the server its owner runs, be it combat or classic, is run without any balance altering plugins.
it will also not play siege style maps.
if more servers foster this kind of environment, i think more players and more and more stronger communities will start to flow as a result.
also, part of the charm of NS is gained from the quirks of the goldsrc (hl1) engine, things that can never be replicated in the src engine.
may of vets and playtesters will agree that it's the exploits in hl1 that make NS what it is. it will be impossible for NS2 to have as much depth as NS BECAUSE it's on src, QED.
<!--quoteo(post=1614838:date=Mar 16 2007, 05:36 AM:name=Milo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Milo @ Mar 16 2007, 05:36 AM) [snapback]1614838[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Elitist attitude killed the game? Go look at CS. I gaurantee you the a-holes in NS are nothing compared to the ones in CS yet that game is thriving. Everyone wants to blame the pro player because its the easy way out. Hell we make a great scapegoat eh?
No sorry it wasnt elitist attitude. That doesnt turn everyone away from a game and I'm living proof. Yeah I was once very unskilled and was occasionally met with ridiculetowards my skill, but I rose abaove it and am now in the top north American NS team.
Did combat kill this game? To an extent it drew more players in but alot of those new players dont want to play NS_maps. Now i find most combat nubs are perplexed when you explain to them that there is another mode of NS, and that xmenu doesnt come standard on all combat servers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
errr CS requires no thought or talent(unless you go competitive *sigh*) point and click.
<!--quoteo(post=1614852:date=Mar 16 2007, 01:31 AM:name=Milo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Milo @ Mar 16 2007, 01:31 AM) [snapback]1614852[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> actually i pretty much just said that the community was exactly the same then as it was now, attitude-wise.
A-holes existed then, a-holes exist now. Thats not going to change.
You're very ignorant fat man. You failed to correctly interpret my post and pass it off as "generic elitist comments."
Shame. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said absolutely nothing comparing past and present. Indicators of a difference in time would be "then" and "now", for example. The only indication of the use of a past tense is in saying you "rose" above being a newbie and everything, unless you're trying to implicitely assume that there were as much ###### then as there are now, which again, there is absolutely no indication of a comparison between past and now.
As for your assertion that I'm ignorant, I played competetive NS as well, and pugs, and all that good stuff about 2-3 years ago. Back then, though, everyone was nice and helpful as hell. Nowadays, the few pugs I do play in involve players throwing racial slurs every which way, and whenever someone joins who is a little slow to get the pug started, players demand that this person be kicked out.
Calling me ignorant because my experiences differ from yours is not only ignorant in-and-of-itself, but elitist as well in the sense that you are acting off of personal experieince to degrade me because my experiences differ, thus showing your assumption that yours are the only possible experiences.
It is a generic elitist comment because you fail to even consider the possibility that "competetive" players contribute to a lack of playing of NS. I'm not singling out competetive players and saying WOW CAL RUINED NS, it's just a factor comprised with other stuff that really, really isn't helping. Don't get me wrong, 30 player pubs and 80 player combat isn't helping; but frankly, comparing the maturity level of pubbers and competetive players, you can't expect whiny teenagers to give a damn if NS dies so long as they get buildmenu and sticky chambers and their ridiculous co_supermario. Competetive players, on the other hand, you just expect more from them because they aren't complete tards. As so many people like to point out on these boards, "pubbers should look up to competetive play", and some (primarily newer players) do, but when they see competetive players being ######s in game, they aren't given the greatest experience, huh? It's like idolizing Micky Mouse and then finding out he bones Minnie in her sleep every night. You'll just be crushed.
<!--quoteo(post=1614880:date=Mar 16 2007, 05:27 AM:name=Femme_Fatale)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale @ Mar 16 2007, 05:27 AM) [snapback]1614880[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS requires no thought or talent(unless you go competitive *sigh*) point and click.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to derail but unless you've actually been good at CS then what qualifies you to say how hard a game is? CS takes <b>considerably</b> more skill and thought than NS does (and always has done).
Claiming that a game is "point and click" is completely retarded, because when you have a game which is played to a competetive level, there comes a point with the top teams where how well a person can aim is completely irrelevant, look at the top CS teams today - every single player in every single team at the CPL has insane aim - what differentiates teams at that level is teamwork, experience, judgement calls and tactics. Not exactly what I'd call a "point and click" divider.
<!--quoteo(post=1614911:date=Mar 16 2007, 09:48 AM:name=Iconoclast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Iconoclast @ Mar 16 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]1614911[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> actually most of the ###### competitive players moved on. you're left with a tame bunch.
THICKEN UP <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just not gonna bother anymore - this is like talking to a wall. Forget everything else I've written.
Hi, my name is FatMan and I think that to fix NS there needs to be more vanilla classic servers.
As for your assertion that I'm ignorant, I played competetive NS as well, and pugs, and all that good stuff about 2-3 years ago. Back then, though, everyone was nice and helpful as hell. Nowadays, the few pugs I do play in involve players throwing racial slurs every which way, and whenever someone joins who is a little slow to get the pug started, players demand that this person be kicked out.
... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do tell how everyone was nice and helpful. I remember more arrogant clanners from back then. Partially, this is due to there just being less clans now. And there are actually still pugs around these days?
<!--quoteo(post=1614903:date=Mar 16 2007, 09:49 AM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Mar 16 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]1614903[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It is a generic elitist comment because you fail to even consider the possibility that "competetive" players contribute to a lack of playing of NS. I'm not singling out competetive players and saying WOW CAL RUINED NS, it's just a factor comprised with other stuff that really, really isn't helping. Don't get me wrong, 30 player pubs and 80 player combat isn't helping; but frankly, comparing the maturity level of pubbers and competetive players, you can't expect whiny teenagers to give a damn if NS dies so long as they get buildmenu and sticky chambers and their ridiculous co_supermario. Competetive players, on the other hand, you just expect more from them because they aren't complete tards. As so many people like to point out on these boards, "pubbers should look up to competetive play", and some (primarily newer players) do, but when they see competetive players being ######s in game, they aren't given the greatest experience, huh? It's like idolizing Micky Mouse and then finding out he bones Minnie in her sleep every night. You'll just be crushed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. I think you're just overexaggerating here. If things are so bad, why don't you go and take some screenshots of clanners being "######s" in-game. If my memory servers me correctly, the majority of clanners have always either played in silence or have tried to be helpful to newbies. However, it is the arrogant minority that is always remembered because apparently most newbies either forget who helped them or just forget period.
<!--quoteo(post=1614939:date=Mar 16 2007, 05:24 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 16 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]1614939[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> However, it is the arrogant minority that is always remembered because apparently most newbies either forget who helped them or just forget period. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol remember #cri? They were always ######s. But w/e.
Anyway to place even a part of the blame on competitive players for the fact that they're more skillfull and simply desire a higher order of play is ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1614939:date=Mar 16 2007, 05:24 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 16 2007, 05:24 PM) [snapback]1614939[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If my memory servers me correctly, the majority of clanners have always either played in <b>silence</b> or have tried to be helpful to newbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haiiii. I can't remember the last time someone asked for help ingame. Well except that one guy who came on a CO server a week ago and asked how to get upgrades and 15 people answered him. Toot toot.
The decline of NS comes with the transfer of NS to NS2 as well as the large blow to the community size when the forums went down. I realize a lot of the core community is still here, but the new faces might have just wandered off and found something else to do with their free time.
I hate to derail but unless you've actually been good at CS then what qualifies you to say how hard a game is? CS takes <b>considerably</b> more skill and thought than NS does (and always has done).
Claiming that a game is "point and click" is completely retarded, because when you have a game which is played to a competetive level, there comes a point with the top teams where how well a person can aim is completely irrelevant, look at the top CS teams today - every single player in every single team at the CPL has insane aim - what differentiates teams at that level is teamwork, experience, judgement calls and tactics. Not exactly what I'd call a "point and click" divider. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I hate to derail, but you already did. I'm not even going to try to comment on whether CS or NS requires more skill/thought/etc, I just want to point out that you NEVER addressed the point he made. He said "CS takes no skill(<b>unless you go competetive</b>)" and you responded with "You're retarded, competetive CS takes boatloads of skill!!!" I hate to break it to you, but <b>you</b> are "completely retarded", and as far as your post shows, you're actually in agreement with him.
Note the number of players who blame their team or certain players on or off their team because of their loss before and after games. I wouldn't be surprised if at least 1 person from each team called someone a noob because of how bad they do. I would have to agree that this is probably the main reason why people quit NS.
usually i just whine and rage in ventrillo to my clanmates about noobs on my team, rather than saying anything to that invidual ingame. most people do this i think
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited March 2007
Ok, here's <!--fonto:Arial Black--><span style="font-family:Arial Black"><!--/fonto--><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->how to FIX NS.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> <!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--> In order to fix NS, you need NS to be more fun or closer to being fun like CO. Perhaps a first step would be to set a goal: NS should be something players would like to go to when they're taking a break from CO.
So, as I mentioned earlier, we need to make the entire game more fun, especially for aliens. Let's draw on the success of CO servers with buildmenu plugins: you can always gorge and you always have levels with which to drop structures. Therefore,
<b>Solution 1: </b> Alter the resource model in order to promote structure dropping. Increase the amount of resources that aliens get overall. Make them more efficient than marines. However, make higher lifeforms more expensive at the same time so that overall the middle-stage of the game doesn't show up too early. In order to compensate for the need of higher lifeforms in the middle-stage of the game, the second and third hives should increase the efficiency of resource collection for aliens. i.e. res towers will collect more res/tic.
Ok. Now we will have more gorge rushes, which is fine and if it is too bad it can be balanced accordingly to give the marines a chance. We will also have many more structures dropped, which many people find fun to do. This will make it more difficult for marines to move around the map. This is good, aliens need static defenses more than marines do.
Next, move on to the marine side. It is fun to be marine in CO because you can control what weapons and what tech you get and you always get your tech back when you respawn. This can't be brought directly to NS, so instead make it <u>more likely</u> to happen.
<b>Solution 2:</b> Alter the res model once again to promote weapons dropping. Perhaps one way to do this would be to make upgrades take longer to research in exchange for cheaper prices for the tech and weapons that result from the upgrades.
Another fun aspect of CO to some people is the back-and-forth fighting in the middle-end game when both teams have players who are loaded with upgrades and tech.
<b>Solution 3:</b> Slow the game down, as noted in another topic currently being discussed. With tweaking of the alien resource model, middle-end game play should last longer as aliens will have better map control and more time to muster up resistance to teched marines.
Edit: And also give the fade it's old acceleration back or at least improve it.
<!--quoteo(post=1615012:date=Mar 16 2007, 07:34 PM:name=Niebelung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Niebelung @ Mar 16 2007, 07:34 PM) [snapback]1615012[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I hate to derail, but you already did. I'm not even going to try to comment on whether CS or NS requires more skill/thought/etc, I just want to point out that you NEVER addressed the point he made. He said "CS takes no skill(<b>unless you go competetive</b>)" and you responded with "You're retarded, competetive CS takes boatloads of skill!!!" I hate to break it to you, but <b>you</b> are "completely retarded", and as far as your post shows, you're actually in agreement with him. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same principles of competetive play can be brought to public play (same as why NS clanners rock up public servers) so, in fact, <b>you</b> fail. There's a reason good clanners get 6:1 ratios on public.
Revert back to spike lerks and acid rocket fades. This removes the skill required to blink slash/pancake lerk. Remove blink, replace it with a stunning ability perhaps to counter jps.
Remove bunny hopping. Put a cap on pistol fire. Widen cones of fire of weapons to entire screen radius (except pistol and grenade launcher of course).
Throwing some ideas out there. Of course here comes the "yoo must sux at ns" retort.
<!--quoteo(post=1614868:date=Mar 16 2007, 05:11 AM:name=ubermensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ubermensch @ Mar 16 2007, 05:11 AM) [snapback]1614868[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> IDEA: create a coalition of serverops who are dedicated to a purist approach to NS
the prerequisite this coalition will have for admittance is that the server its owner runs, be it combat or classic, is run without any balance altering plugins.
it will also not play siege style maps.
if more servers foster this kind of environment, i think more players and more and more stronger communities will start to flow as a result. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I <i>tried</i> to start that and nobody gave a ish! <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/trans_system_authority/folder_post_icons/icon2.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I would still like to do that, but I cannot do it alone. It cannot even be done with two people. You must have a <i>group</i> of admins from the most popular servers.
<!--quoteo(post=1615251:date=Mar 17 2007, 09:41 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 17 2007, 09:41 PM) [snapback]1615251[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My name is SmoodCroozn and I am so terrible I need a cone of fire of an entire screen radius to kill walker skulks. Please remove all skill prerequisites from NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1615147:date=Mar 17 2007, 05:35 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 17 2007, 05:35 PM) [snapback]1615147[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS should be something players would like to go to when they're taking a break from CO. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what
People are throwing out ideas that seem to be way to much of 'huge overhaul'. One step at a time. But keep in mind, the amount of depth in NS is its beauty. The devs have worked for a very, very long time to get it right. If there are issues with some things being noob-unfriendly, fix them without dumbing it all down. Again, perfect example is +movement. Perhaps another example could be spawncamp-helper i suggested earlier in this thread.
Maybe we can find better solutions, by pinpointing the issues. What do you guys think needs to actually be fixed in NS?
My list: -spawncamping -recognition (imagine built-in end-round awards, like that plugin? who doesnt love that plugin. 'Hungry hungry onos with 20 devours!' But it also works great for support classes, which is what i'm aiming at with this 'recognition' issue; more incentive to work as a team, in a support class) -introduction to the game and its many complexities -equalization of all 3 chambers; SC has really taken a backseat in 3.2, for first or second chamber -incentives for alien teamwork and tactics
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
edited March 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1615332:date=Mar 18 2007, 10:40 AM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 18 2007, 10:40 AM) [snapback]1615332[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> what
People are throwing out ideas that seem to be way to much of 'huge overhaul'. One step at a time. But keep in mind, the amount of depth in NS is its beauty. The devs have worked for a very, very long time to get it right. If there are issues with some things being noob-unfriendly, fix them without dumbing it all down. Again, perfect example is +movement. Perhaps another example could be spawncamp-helper i suggested earlier in this thread.
Maybe we can find better solutions, by pinpointing the issues. What do you guys think needs to actually be fixed in NS?
My list: -spawncamping -recognition (imagine built-in end-round awards, like that plugin? who doesnt love that plugin. 'Hungry hungry onos with 20 devours!' But it also works great for support classes, which is what i'm aiming at with this 'recognition' issue; more incentive to work as a team, in a support class) -introduction to the game and its many complexities -equalization of all 3 chambers; SC has really taken a backseat in 3.2, for first or second chamber -incentives for alien teamwork and tactics <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're blinded by your own attachment to a paticular form of a game, then you can't see the problems with it. All you need is to host a 9v9 veteran NS game to see what's wrong with NS. Then everyone that says it is balanced or fun can see the game for what it really is. I guess to bring it closer to home, it should be 12v12 or so to scale it closer to pub sizes.
A 9v9 veteran NS game? So what, the aliens will cap one node and then get 8 fades at 12 minutes, and the marines will all just rambo around with each other muted?
Those are my memories from the Vets server. But if you're talking about REAL games, where people have decent skill and actually use teamwork... ? The game doesnt seem to be broken much at all in those cases.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
I thought you'd be able to figure out that I meant a 9v9 game with veteran skill levels and a competitive level of teamwork. I don't really care for memories of vet servers.
What I don't understand is how on earth you think these games would be balanced. Have you actually already held these events and seen that everything works and is well-balanced? Or are you talking about pub games?
Well, try the Captains games. They have them on some servers. Admins put on Tourney mode, pick teams one person at a time, use the ready command, use good amount of strategy and tac, etc. Basically a larger pub, where people arent all necessarily pro skill, but do listen. And they're pretty balanced from the team picking method.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Throwing some ideas out there. Of course here comes the "yoo must sux at ns" retort. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> cool troll
saraph: those are all valid points but you know as well as i that implementing them would kill off and bury the remains of anything related to competetive natural selection. it just makes me sick to even think about ever playing the sort of ns that a certain, quite vocal part of the community wishes to see. let alone play a scrim with it. i guess wzza was right...:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... releasing patches every month and changing gameplay all over again, ###### up vets game experience and allowing noobs to catch up. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
the prerequisite this coalition will have for admittance is that the server its owner runs, be it combat or classic, is run without any balance altering plugins.
it will also not play siege style maps.
if more servers foster this kind of environment, i think more players and more and more stronger communities will start to flow as a result.
may of vets and playtesters will agree that it's the exploits in hl1 that make NS what it is. it will be impossible for NS2 to have as much depth as NS BECAUSE it's on src, QED.
Elitist attitude killed the game? Go look at CS. I gaurantee you the a-holes in NS are nothing compared to the ones in CS yet that game is thriving. Everyone wants to blame the pro player because its the easy way out. Hell we make a great scapegoat eh?
No sorry it wasnt elitist attitude. That doesnt turn everyone away from a game and I'm living proof. Yeah I was once very unskilled and was occasionally met with ridiculetowards my skill, but I rose abaove it and am now in the top north American NS team.
Did combat kill this game? To an extent it drew more players in but alot of those new players dont want to play NS_maps. Now i find most combat nubs are perplexed when you explain to them that there is another mode of NS, and that xmenu doesnt come standard on all combat servers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
errr
CS requires no thought or talent(unless you go competitive *sigh*)
point and click.
NS is somewhat diffrent...
actually i pretty much just said that the community was exactly the same then as it was now, attitude-wise.
A-holes existed then, a-holes exist now. Thats not going to change.
You're very ignorant fat man. You failed to correctly interpret my post and pass it off as "generic elitist comments."
Shame.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said absolutely nothing comparing past and present. Indicators of a difference in time would be "then" and "now", for example. The only indication of the use of a past tense is in saying you "rose" above being a newbie and everything, unless you're trying to implicitely assume that there were as much ###### then as there are now, which again, there is absolutely no indication of a comparison between past and now.
As for your assertion that I'm ignorant, I played competetive NS as well, and pugs, and all that good stuff about 2-3 years ago. Back then, though, everyone was nice and helpful as hell. Nowadays, the few pugs I do play in involve players throwing racial slurs every which way, and whenever someone joins who is a little slow to get the pug started, players demand that this person be kicked out.
Calling me ignorant because my experiences differ from yours is not only ignorant in-and-of-itself, but elitist as well in the sense that you are acting off of personal experieince to degrade me because my experiences differ, thus showing your assumption that yours are the only possible experiences.
It is a generic elitist comment because you fail to even consider the possibility that "competetive" players contribute to a lack of playing of NS. I'm not singling out competetive players and saying WOW CAL RUINED NS, it's just a factor comprised with other stuff that really, really isn't helping. Don't get me wrong, 30 player pubs and 80 player combat isn't helping; but frankly, comparing the maturity level of pubbers and competetive players, you can't expect whiny teenagers to give a damn if NS dies so long as they get buildmenu and sticky chambers and their ridiculous co_supermario. Competetive players, on the other hand, you just expect more from them because they aren't complete tards. As so many people like to point out on these boards, "pubbers should look up to competetive play", and some (primarily newer players) do, but when they see competetive players being ######s in game, they aren't given the greatest experience, huh? It's like idolizing Micky Mouse and then finding out he bones Minnie in her sleep every night. You'll just be crushed.
THICKEN UP
point and click.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to derail but unless you've actually been good at CS then what qualifies you to say how hard a game is? CS takes <b>considerably</b> more skill and thought than NS does (and always has done).
Claiming that a game is "point and click" is completely retarded, because when you have a game which is played to a competetive level, there comes a point with the top teams where how well a person can aim is completely irrelevant, look at the top CS teams today - every single player in every single team at the CPL has insane aim - what differentiates teams at that level is teamwork, experience, judgement calls and tactics. Not exactly what I'd call a "point and click" divider.
actually most of the ###### competitive players moved on. you're left with a tame bunch.
THICKEN UP
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just not gonna bother anymore - this is like talking to a wall. Forget everything else I've written.
Hi, my name is FatMan and I think that to fix NS there needs to be more vanilla classic servers.
...
As for your assertion that I'm ignorant, I played competetive NS as well, and pugs, and all that good stuff about 2-3 years ago. Back then, though, everyone was nice and helpful as hell. Nowadays, the few pugs I do play in involve players throwing racial slurs every which way, and whenever someone joins who is a little slow to get the pug started, players demand that this person be kicked out.
...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do tell how everyone was nice and helpful. I remember more arrogant clanners from back then. Partially, this is due to there just being less clans now. And there are actually still pugs around these days?
<!--quoteo(post=1614903:date=Mar 16 2007, 09:49 AM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Mar 16 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]1614903[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
It is a generic elitist comment because you fail to even consider the possibility that "competetive" players contribute to a lack of playing of NS. I'm not singling out competetive players and saying WOW CAL RUINED NS, it's just a factor comprised with other stuff that really, really isn't helping. Don't get me wrong, 30 player pubs and 80 player combat isn't helping; but frankly, comparing the maturity level of pubbers and competetive players, you can't expect whiny teenagers to give a damn if NS dies so long as they get buildmenu and sticky chambers and their ridiculous co_supermario. Competetive players, on the other hand, you just expect more from them because they aren't complete tards. As so many people like to point out on these boards, "pubbers should look up to competetive play", and some (primarily newer players) do, but when they see competetive players being ######s in game, they aren't given the greatest experience, huh? It's like idolizing Micky Mouse and then finding out he bones Minnie in her sleep every night. You'll just be crushed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok. I think you're just overexaggerating here. If things are so bad, why don't you go and take some screenshots of clanners being "######s" in-game. If my memory servers me correctly, the majority of clanners have always either played in silence or have tried to be helpful to newbies. However, it is the arrogant minority that is always remembered because apparently most newbies either forget who helped them or just forget period.
However, it is the arrogant minority that is always remembered because apparently most newbies either forget who helped them or just forget period.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol remember #cri? They were always ######s. But w/e.
Anyway to place even a part of the blame on competitive players for the fact that they're more skillfull and simply desire a higher order of play is ridiculous.
If my memory servers me correctly, the majority of clanners have always either played in <b>silence</b> or have tried to be helpful to newbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haiiii. I can't remember the last time someone asked for help ingame. Well except that one guy who came on a CO server a week ago and asked how to get upgrades and 15 people answered him. Toot toot.
I hate to derail but unless you've actually been good at CS then what qualifies you to say how hard a game is? CS takes <b>considerably</b> more skill and thought than NS does (and always has done).
Claiming that a game is "point and click" is completely retarded, because when you have a game which is played to a competetive level, there comes a point with the top teams where how well a person can aim is completely irrelevant, look at the top CS teams today - every single player in every single team at the CPL has insane aim - what differentiates teams at that level is teamwork, experience, judgement calls and tactics. Not exactly what I'd call a "point and click" divider. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I hate to derail, but you already did. I'm not even going to try to comment on whether CS or NS requires more skill/thought/etc, I just want to point out that you NEVER addressed the point he made. He said "CS takes no skill(<b>unless you go competetive</b>)" and you responded with "You're retarded, competetive CS takes boatloads of skill!!!" I hate to break it to you, but <b>you</b> are "completely retarded", and as far as your post shows, you're actually in agreement with him.
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In order to fix NS, you need NS to be more fun or closer to being fun like CO. Perhaps a first step would be to set a goal: NS should be something players would like to go to when they're taking a break from CO.
So, as I mentioned earlier, we need to make the entire game more fun, especially for aliens. Let's draw on the success of CO servers with buildmenu plugins: you can always gorge and you always have levels with which to drop structures. Therefore,
<b>Solution 1: </b> Alter the resource model in order to promote structure dropping. Increase the amount of resources that aliens get overall. Make them more efficient than marines. However, make higher lifeforms more expensive at the same time so that overall the middle-stage of the game doesn't show up too early. In order to compensate for the need of higher lifeforms in the middle-stage of the game, the second and third hives should increase the efficiency of resource collection for aliens. i.e. res towers will collect more res/tic.
Ok. Now we will have more gorge rushes, which is fine and if it is too bad it can be balanced accordingly to give the marines a chance. We will also have many more structures dropped, which many people find fun to do. This will make it more difficult for marines to move around the map. This is good, aliens need static defenses more than marines do.
Next, move on to the marine side. It is fun to be marine in CO because you can control what weapons and what tech you get and you always get your tech back when you respawn. This can't be brought directly to NS, so instead make it <u>more likely</u> to happen.
<b>Solution 2:</b> Alter the res model once again to promote weapons dropping. Perhaps one way to do this would be to make upgrades take longer to research in exchange for cheaper prices for the tech and weapons that result from the upgrades.
Another fun aspect of CO to some people is the back-and-forth fighting in the middle-end game when both teams have players who are loaded with upgrades and tech.
<b>Solution 3:</b> Slow the game down, as noted in another topic currently being discussed. With tweaking of the alien resource model, middle-end game play should last longer as aliens will have better map control and more time to muster up resistance to teched marines.
Edit: And also give the fade it's old acceleration back or at least improve it.
I hate to derail, but you already did. I'm not even going to try to comment on whether CS or NS requires more skill/thought/etc, I just want to point out that you NEVER addressed the point he made. He said "CS takes no skill(<b>unless you go competetive</b>)" and you responded with "You're retarded, competetive CS takes boatloads of skill!!!" I hate to break it to you, but <b>you</b> are "completely retarded", and as far as your post shows, you're actually in agreement with him.
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The same principles of competetive play can be brought to public play (same as why NS clanners rock up public servers) so, in fact, <b>you</b> fail. There's a reason good clanners get 6:1 ratios on public.
Revert back to spike lerks and acid rocket fades. This removes the skill required to blink slash/pancake lerk. Remove blink, replace it with a stunning ability perhaps to counter jps.
Remove bunny hopping. Put a cap on pistol fire. Widen cones of fire of weapons to entire screen radius (except pistol and grenade launcher of course).
Throwing some ideas out there. Of course here comes the "yoo must sux at ns" retort.
the prerequisite this coalition will have for admittance is that the server its owner runs, be it combat or classic, is run without any balance altering plugins.
it will also not play siege style maps.
if more servers foster this kind of environment, i think more players and more and more stronger communities will start to flow as a result. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I <i>tried</i> to start that and nobody gave a ish! <img src="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/trans_system_authority/folder_post_icons/icon2.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I would still like to do that, but I cannot do it alone. It cannot even be done with two people. You must have a <i>group</i> of admins from the most popular servers.
My name is SmoodCroozn and I am so terrible I need a cone of fire of an entire screen radius to kill walker skulks. Please remove all skill prerequisites from NS.
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NS should be something players would like to go to when they're taking a break from CO.
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what
People are throwing out ideas that seem to be way to much of 'huge overhaul'. One step at a time. But keep in mind, the amount of depth in NS is its beauty. The devs have worked for a very, very long time to get it right. If there are issues with some things being noob-unfriendly, fix them without dumbing it all down. Again, perfect example is +movement. Perhaps another example could be spawncamp-helper i suggested earlier in this thread.
Maybe we can find better solutions, by pinpointing the issues. What do you guys think needs to actually be fixed in NS?
My list:
-spawncamping
-recognition (imagine built-in end-round awards, like that plugin? who doesnt love that plugin. 'Hungry hungry onos with 20 devours!' But it also works great for support classes, which is what i'm aiming at with this 'recognition' issue; more incentive to work as a team, in a support class)
-introduction to the game and its many complexities
-equalization of all 3 chambers; SC has really taken a backseat in 3.2, for first or second chamber
-incentives for alien teamwork and tactics
-the life of the gorge needs to see gameplay improvements while maintaining balance AND flavor of "support/builder class"
NS needs more servers.
what
People are throwing out ideas that seem to be way to much of 'huge overhaul'. One step at a time. But keep in mind, the amount of depth in NS is its beauty. The devs have worked for a very, very long time to get it right. If there are issues with some things being noob-unfriendly, fix them without dumbing it all down. Again, perfect example is +movement. Perhaps another example could be spawncamp-helper i suggested earlier in this thread.
Maybe we can find better solutions, by pinpointing the issues. What do you guys think needs to actually be fixed in NS?
My list:
-spawncamping
-recognition (imagine built-in end-round awards, like that plugin? who doesnt love that plugin. 'Hungry hungry onos with 20 devours!' But it also works great for support classes, which is what i'm aiming at with this 'recognition' issue; more incentive to work as a team, in a support class)
-introduction to the game and its many complexities
-equalization of all 3 chambers; SC has really taken a backseat in 3.2, for first or second chamber
-incentives for alien teamwork and tactics
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If you're blinded by your own attachment to a paticular form of a game, then you can't see the problems with it. All you need is to host a 9v9 veteran NS game to see what's wrong with NS. Then everyone that says it is balanced or fun can see the game for what it really is. I guess to bring it closer to home, it should be 12v12 or so to scale it closer to pub sizes.
A 9v9 veteran NS game? So what, the aliens will cap one node and then get 8 fades at 12 minutes, and the marines will all just rambo around with each other muted?
Those are my memories from the Vets server. But if you're talking about REAL games, where people have decent skill and actually use teamwork... ? The game doesnt seem to be broken much at all in those cases.
Unless you want to expand on your explanation.
What I don't understand is how on earth you think these games would be balanced. Have you actually already held these events and seen that everything works and is well-balanced? Or are you talking about pub games?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Throwing some ideas out there. Of course here comes the "yoo must sux at ns" retort.
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cool troll
saraph: those are all valid points but you know as well as i that implementing them would kill off and bury the remains of anything related to competetive natural selection. it just makes me sick to even think about ever playing the sort of ns that a certain, quite vocal part of the community wishes to see. let alone play a scrim with it. i guess wzza was right...:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... releasing patches every month and changing gameplay all over again, ###### up vets game experience and allowing noobs to catch up. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->