WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1615933:date=Mar 20 2007, 10:52 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 20 2007, 10:52 PM) [snapback]1615933[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think what destroys games are games where a few players determine the game from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this destroys a few games, everyone's normal. If it destroys games over and over, with the same set of players, someone isn't making the most of the opportunity in the long run, and that's unfortunate, as depth isn't merely the best attribute of NS, but also of its players.
<!--quoteo(post=1615969:date=Mar 20 2007, 09:48 PM:name=Wyzcrak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wyzcrak @ Mar 20 2007, 09:48 PM) [snapback]1615969[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If this destroys a few games, everyone's normal. If it destroys games over and over, with the same set of players, someone isn't making the most of the opportunity in the long run, and that's unfortunate, as depth isn't merely the best attribute of NS, but also of its players. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This has happened to me today on the BAD server. Mak's a good player. But when you play with him, you realize that nobody can get out of the hive, which means no res being capped, spawn camping and no fades. It's boring when someone is this good. What can be done about extremely good players other than kicking them? He shuts down a server of 30 people and locks the aliens in their hive every game.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
If "no one can get out of the hive", it's too late. It's like complaining that skydiving is dangerous as you fall to the ground saying "WTH. They didn't give me a parachute!!11"
You've got to plan ahead and see disaster coming. The moment a potent marine force (be it 1 or 6 strong) gets near your hive in the early game, you've got to alert your team, and your team has to respond.
Get four skulks (or two, or whatever's required, given the threat) within close proximity of the threat, and identify who's leading the force. Once everyone's staged (no one has line of sight on the marine at this point, as that tends to lead to dead skulks), everyone obtains LOS on the threat at the same time, overpowering his weapon's ability to counter the attack (you can only aim at so many skulks at once).
That requires a level of teamwork that I admit you won't find everywhere. I enjoy that level of teamplay every night. It really doesn't take that much personal skill per unit. It just takes discipline (waiting to move in), communication, and coordination. If that combination sounds like an unfair expectation, see sig.
obviously the problem here is that the skulks dont want to get better, they want to do the same things theyve always done, who cares if they work or not.
now this is critical and you have to understand this, otherwise were not progressing anywhere: ns is a game. youre not supposed to know everything the minute you first start playing. youre supposed to learn to play the game and you will learn the game unless you have some kind of serious syndrome or whatever. its the same with every game to be honest. maybe theyve permanently removed everything related to sports and games at american schools, this is really the only answer i can think of.
obviously the problem here is that the skulks dont want to get better, they want to do the same things theyve always done, who cares if they work or not.
now this is critical and you have to understand this, otherwise were not progressing anywhere: ns is a game. youre not supposed to know everything the minute you first start playing. youre supposed to learn to play the game and you will learn the game unless you have some kind of serious syndrome or whatever. its the same with every game to be honest. maybe theyve permanently removed everything related to sports and games at american schools, this is really the only answer i can think of.
I think our positions have been established in this thread.
My position is that there should be a way to segment skill levels, because throwing the newbie in the ring with the best is the worst experience ever. That newbie is likely to assume this game is too hard and move on. Yeah, you can learn and get better - there is a skill curve in every game - but that depends on if your frustration level from dying over and over with no chance outweighs your desire to get better. The more casual a player you are, the lower your tolerance is for the ridiculous NS endgames.
But I acknowledge that whether this is a game for the masses is the dev's decision and many people are against it. Maybe NS mode is only meant for the hardcore minority and CO for the masses. That's what it looks like.
<!--quoteo(post=1616062:date=Mar 21 2007, 05:01 PM:name=Dogg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dogg @ Mar 21 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]1616062[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think our positions have been established in this thread.
My position is that there should be a way segment skill levels, because throwing the newbie in the ring with the best is the worst experience ever. That newbie is likely to assume this game is too hard and move on. Yeah, you can learn and get better - there is a skill curve in every game - but that depends on if your frustration level from dying over and over with no chance outweighs your desire to get better. The more casual a player you are, the lower your tolerance is for the ridiculous NS endgames.
But I acknowledge that whether this is a game for the masses is the dev's decision and many people are against it. Maybe NS mode is only meant for the hardcore minority and CO for the masses. That's what it looks like. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The general public skill level is well low. Of course some guy may own here and there, but everyone should be able to frag if they just try the game out twice or so. At least I wouldn't care if one guy wasted me dozens of times as long as I can see that most of the server is having the same problems.
how about blending co and ns, to a cons! so you can get multiple upgrades with points while fighting, yet gorges can gain recources to contruct buildings and hives, aliens will gain recourses when they use a point to go gorge.
marines , the commander recieves the recourses , and marines gain points. but make it so every upgrade still needs the specific chamber/upgrade.
so even though you gain a point to use that ability, you still need the commander to upgrade it to lvl 3 or the gorge to build 3 chambers.
I don't like it for marines, but it sounds like a great idea for aliens (yes, I mean in ns_).
Think for a second, gorges could get access to the entire alien res pool like they used to have, but <i>without</i> the problem of players sucking up all the res with lifeforms. This more or less solves the problem of "perma gorging is boring", and makes going gorge an intuitive choice because it's the first thing players have access to while everything else is locked.
It solves the problem of "ohnoes small game aliens dropped five nodes gg infinite fades".
It allows an atmospheric "swell" of tension as aliens kill marines AND makes dying more of a big deal for marines. In this way it makes playing aliens more interesting and K:D based which might get players to stack rines less, since they could fade much quicker if they knew how to skulk (which encourages skillful skulking).
I would love to see this done, if not in NS, then in a third game mode.
<!--quoteo(post=1616062:date=Mar 21 2007, 09:01 AM:name=Dogg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dogg @ Mar 21 2007, 09:01 AM) [snapback]1616062[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think our positions have been established in this thread.
My position is that there should be a way to segment skill levels, because throwing the newbie in the ring with the best is the worst experience ever. That newbie is likely to assume this game is too hard and move on. Yeah, you can learn and get better - there is a skill curve in every game - but that depends on if your frustration level from dying over and over with no chance outweighs your desire to get better. The more casual a player you are, the lower your tolerance is for the ridiculous NS endgames.
But I acknowledge that whether this is a game for the masses is the dev's decision and many people are against it. Maybe NS mode is only meant for the hardcore minority and CO for the masses. That's what it looks like. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree. I'd enjoy the game more if I were matched with people with my level of play versus a noob or a pro game. NS shoves everyone into the same bowl, which makes the pros stand out coincidentally. As you've said, new players could tolerate this game more if they were paired with other new players, than the pro that kills them spawn after spawn...
I don't think the game could be segmented with so few players on right now. I'd rather have some sort of in-game fix to allow everyone to player together. Either we have a handicap or we modify the game to be easier for everyone in order to stabilize players.
I wonder what would happen if someone turned a server into a newbie paradise. Too much ownaging gets you banned for a day or so. This way you could have your games without the skill difference and there would still be public servers for the skilled ones to play. Just to try things out if not anything else. There should be a plenty of empty servers to test with.
It takes one dedicated admin to kick the few players who aren't low skill enough and still keep joining the server.
<!--quoteo(post=1616212:date=Mar 22 2007, 01:42 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 22 2007, 01:42 AM) [snapback]1616212[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I wonder what would happen if someone turned a server into a newbie paradise. Too much ownaging gets you banned for a day or so. This way you could have your games without the skill difference and there would still be public servers for the skilled ones to play. Just to try things out if not anything else. There should be a plenty of empty servers to test with.
It takes one dedicated admin to kick the few players who aren't low skill enough and still keep joining the server. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Already implemented on several servers (unintentionally, I'm sure). You just get a stagnant playerbase that never gets better.
punish those who strive for excellence, to appease those who both aren't there yet themselves and have too much pride to accept it.
We were all newbs one time. We've all been owned hard, thousands of times. Its simply a matter of personal drive, and also of humility, as to whether you'll keep at it. If you only derive pleasure from winning, you'll never enjoy a new videogame ever again, except for those that are either singleplayer or have no new or unique skills required.
Smood, that's just the nature of public gaming. There's nothing to say with CS you won't join a server with a CAL-I clanner who will just devestate you. The only difference is CS has a larger community, both players and servers, so whilst yes there are more skilled players, there are also more servers to play on so it's less likely you'll run into them. It's not the games fault, in all games there are good players and there are bad players and in all games, good players make an impact; it's the very nature of being skilled, it's what defines skill.
To change the game to accomodate bad players so they can compete with good players is folly. If you make things too easy then it does 2 things: 1) Good players find the class even easier to use and are even more effective. 2) In making things that easy to use you remove any sort of skill ladder and the game becomes boring for players who enjoy more than a hour on a random server. You make things easy to learn but difficult to master. This game is balanced, what it needs is accessibility and a larger community. New players would enjoy the game more if they knew what they were doing, if there was a training map, if there were better supports in place to help the new player grasp the concept of playing a melee unit.
Take the example of bunnyhopping. It's unfortunate but the most critical skill in NS is bunnyhopping, not for the actual bunnyhopping itself but because once you learn to bunnyhop, you master the art of air control and HL's movement quirks. Your ability to survive engagements greatly increases when you understand this aspect of the game. Whilst bunnyhopping is itself totally supported, there is no official manual to teach it and to in turn unlock other skills like double jumping etc. The problem here isn't bunnyhopping, the answer isn't to increase base skulk speed so new players are on par, the answer is to provide training and instruction as part of NS.
Hopefully this example shows how you can make the game easier for new players whilst still maintaining that skill ladder which more competitively minded people greatly enjoy.
<!--quoteo(post=1616150:date=Mar 21 2007, 10:08 PM:name=kyliegirl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kyliegirl @ Mar 21 2007, 10:08 PM) [snapback]1616150[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> how about blending co and ns, to a cons! so you can get multiple upgrades with points while fighting, yet gorges can gain recources to contruct buildings and hives, aliens will gain recourses when they use a point to go gorge.
marines , the commander recieves the recourses , and marines gain points. but make it so every upgrade still needs the specific chamber/upgrade.
so even though you gain a point to use that ability, you still need the commander to upgrade it to lvl 3 or the gorge to build 3 chambers.
.................... just a random thought.... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting this for emphasis, if anyone missed it. I think it would work better for aliens than for rines, but it was an interesting idea to me.
I'm totally disappointed about DoD:S, been playing since the Beta (which doesn't mean anything) but they changed the game way too much. Red Orchestra is imo better.
Yes CS has a larger community, but NS has maximum teamplay <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> So the hell with popularity, no need to "fix" NS ^^
As fancy as you sound Stix, the reality is that nobody likes playing 5 games where aliens can't get out of their hive due to one super aiming marine. The aliens feel frustrated, while the other marines feel they did not contribute at all to the win. It's that one marines show. There is no zen feeling at all; just a bunch of people who are ###### off and others that feel useless.
Ben, you could look at games like CS and DOD and tell me that's how things are. But then I tell you to look at Warcraft III or Halo 2 and see how they run things there. Of course they don't artificially change players, but they do the next best thing: match people accordingly. And it works.
So you say that making things easier only helps pro players? Well, I'm liking the fade now and can get to where some of the better fades in the servers I play are at. I still see players that are good with fade, but now I can get there... well it's helped me at least.
I guess if you aren't going to change the game... Then would you change the players? Handicap them? Or segment them into different areas?
While I do understand learning and then achieving is great, throwing a pro to rape you dozens of times before you get anywhere isn't the only choice. It's as if you start a new game on hard mode and call that learning. Or you could take a more leveled route and play with players your choice. You slowly become better with the players, rather than the hard way. That's why we don't do the final exam in one day at school. We take time to get better.
Perhaps my idea of making the game easier is flawed. But I still don't think nubs learning from dying 40 times is the best way possible. As some have said, it's frustrating and would more likely cause the player to quit playing. At the same time, I don't feel a practice level with comps is the best way to learn accurately.
I just want a way to get everyone in the same basket, yet we don't have players that are totally useless because they don't have insane reflexes.
<!--quoteo(post=1616386:date=Mar 23 2007, 02:16 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Mar 23 2007, 02:16 AM) [snapback]1616386[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As fancy as you sound Stix, the reality is that nobody likes playing 5 games where aliens can't get out of their hive due to one super aiming marine. The aliens feel frustrated, while the other marines feel they did not contribute at all to the win. It's that one marines show. There is no zen feeling at all; just a bunch of people who are ###### off and others that feel useless.
Ben, you could look at games like CS and DOD and tell me that's how things are. But then I tell you to look at Warcraft III or Halo 2 and see how they run things there. Of course they don't artificially change players, but they do the next best thing: match people accordingly. And it works.
So you say that making things easier only helps pro players? Well, I'm liking the fade now and can get to where some of the better fades in the servers I play are at. I still see players that are good with fade, but now I can get there... well it's helped me at least.
I guess if you aren't going to change the game... Then would you change the players? Handicap them? Or segment them into different areas?
While I do understand learning and then achieving is great, throwing a pro to rape you dozens of times before you get anywhere isn't the only choice. It's as if you start a new game on hard mode and call that learning. Or you could take a more leveled route and play with players your choice. You slowly become better with the players, rather than the hard way. That's why we don't do the final exam in one day at school. We take time to get better.
Perhaps my idea of making the game easier is flawed. But I still don't think nubs learning from dying 40 times is the best way possible. As some have said, it's frustrating and would more likely cause the player to quit playing. At the same time, I don't feel a practice level with comps is the best way to learn accurately.
I just want a way to get everyone in the same basket, yet we don't have players that are totally useless because they don't have insane reflexes. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you bother posting at all? Honestly, all you ever say is how much everyone is better than you and therefore the devs should make NS even for everyone. Why don't you just join a farm team and get better at NS? That way we won't have to listen to your daily posts about how one player can ruin the game for everyone.
There's always the option of the Marine/Alien Trainer servers too.
I dunno. Frankly, most games where aliens get dominated, its very likely that they either didnt have an early lerk, or he played the role horrible. If prostar marines are running about, well, not much they can do about gas.
Veritas, Harrower, come play on BAD or G4B2S once in a while. You'll see what happens when some guys like Romano come on board. It's a miracle if anybody can get out of the hive.
If you can't handle reading my posts without feeling some emotion, then do your best to handle it. I play NS, I observer what happens and I write it down. Whether or not I like what is happening doesn't change the fact that it is happening.
I just happen to think game after game where aliens as a whole can't get out of their hive due to one extreme player is ridiculous. As I've said before, the aliens give up and the other marines feel useless. It's even hard for a top marine the game before to join aliens.
So please, construct to what I'm saying, or don't bother posting your whines. And Harrower, you brought this onto yourself by asking what could be done to FIX NS. So act mature and prove me why I'm wrong instead of trying to redirect others from my posts.
Stix I appreciate your suggestions, but people have been doing that. Maybe you've tried these games before.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Smood may be a newb, but he is merely pointing out what happens when pro players mingle with newbies in newbie servers. Obviously it isn't as bad when there are average players in the server, but skill does still make a huge difference. It should.
I'm personally against dumbing down gameplay, since I think that the result will be boring gameplay. At least from my point of view. This is how I look at it:
I've played this game for a long time. I have struggled to learn how to play it decently and eventually I succeeded. The rewards show every time I play pubs and, if there was a significant competitive community, it would show in competitive games. However, when the game is dumbed down, it feels like my hard work is pretty much destroyed as I have to conform to an easier and more rigid type of gameplay.
Now, I realize that this is very selfish. Yes. I am selfish as a player who put several years into getting to the point where I can walk over pubs. However, I know that my selfishness is bad for the game. A high skill bracket is what ensures that fewer people will enjoy the game and even fewer will ever reach a competitive level of play.
I think it's important to distinguish between one's own interests and the interests of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1616437:date=Mar 23 2007, 08:45 AM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Mar 23 2007, 08:45 AM) [snapback]1616437[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> why don't people enjoy losing?! They can learn from their loses! It just doesn't make sense.
oh wait.
people want to win. winning is fun and provides instant gratification. Much like something else that people spend a lot of time doing.... yes, scratch and win lotto tickets. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1616437:date=Mar 23 2007, 03:45 AM:name=F4tManMGS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F4tManMGS2 @ Mar 23 2007, 03:45 AM) [snapback]1616437[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> why don't people enjoy losing?! They can learn from their loses! It just doesn't make sense.
oh wait.
people want to win. winning is fun and provides instant gratification. Much like something else that people spend a lot of time doing.... yes, scratch and win lotto tickets. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what I spend a lot of time doing........... wink wink, nudge nudge
Losing in NS is dreadful on pub servers when the other team drags it on for an unecessary extra 15 minutes just to get fully teched before finishing off the one-hive-one-rt-all-lower-life-form aliens.
My apologies for skipping several pages of comments, but I don't think this has been said yet...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS requires no thought or talent(unless you go competitive *sigh*) point and click.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1614931:date=Mar 16 2007, 11:27 AM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ Mar 16 2007, 11:27 AM) [snapback]1614931[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I hate to derail but unless you've actually been good at CS then what qualifies you to say how hard a game is? CS takes <b>considerably</b> more skill and thought than NS does (and always has done).
Claiming that a game is "point and click" is completely retarded, because when you have a game which is played to a competetive level, there comes a point with the top teams where how well a person can aim is completely irrelevant, look at the top CS teams today - every single player in every single team at the CPL has insane aim - what differentiates teams at that level is teamwork, experience, judgement calls and tactics. Not exactly what I'd call a "point and click" divider. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to NS, Counterstrike is a very easy game to play.
Does this mean its easy to get good enough at CS to win clan matches? No, there's a fairly high skill ceiling, and it definately takes some effort to reach a competitive level, just like in NS. I don't have the experience to say whether competitive CS is more or less skill intensive then competitive NS, but they both take work.
But thats not the point. For a new player considering whether to keep playing this new game that he's just found, the skill required to go from average to pro is irrelevant. Whats important is the skill required to go from newbie to simply being <i>effective</i>. And in that regard, CS beats NS hands down.
A new NS player won't be effective on either team until he learns a bunch of things he's likely never had to deal with before. Any CS nub can save up some money to buy a rifle, and post a half-way decent kill ratio against other average players (were not talking about clanners here), so long as he has some basic aim skills. But a new player in NS has to learn an entirely new play-style before he can even begin to be effective as an alien. Things are a little better as a Marine, where at least you have the familiar gun and cross hairs, but the novice marine still has to deal with some of the fastest moving targets available in an FPS, enemies that can become completely invisible, enemies that drop off ceilings to bite him in the back, higher alien lifeforms that are all but unkillable for a marine without backup, a system that doesnt just <i>reward</i> teamwork but <i>requires</i> it, and the concept of "not fighting so you can stop and build resnodes".
NS is a very hard game to <i>start</i> playing. CO_ does a little to help the transition, but many players who start with CO_ never progress past it to see the richness offered by NS_. Even someone who has mastered the basic combat techniques offered by CO_ still has a lot to learn before he can be an effective NS_ player. So I suggest one thing we need is more attention paid to training new players to cultivate a future player base. This can tie back in to other issues discussed such as complainst about "elitist clanners".
Disregarding any comments about how hard competitive CS is, Cxwf's post has a point. A new player picking up NS for the first time will likely have no idea what to do besides "attack the guys who don't look like your teammates". Whereas in CS, I don't think anyone's going to have trouble figuring out the point of the game.
Shooting in CS is decently intuitive, both from other FPS games and understanding guns. Shooting as a marine in NS is also intuitive enough, the problem comes with aliens being unlike anything the newbie has probably ever played. I know that even without bunnyhopping/movement, there's a lot that a newbie skulk CAN do, but the problem isn't what he CAN do, it's what he'll figure out, and the experience from other FPS's will probably lead him to seek to directly confront the marines, rather than ambush, attack RTs, wait for a distraction, etc.
Honestly, I feel that a lot of the balance problems in NS could be solved by adding a good tutorial map, and possibly making it required(or at least highly suggested) that new players play it. Everyone(figuratively) is arguing, "Aliens are fine if you get good at skulking." Well, most new players aren't going to have the faintest idea how to do that.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1616536:date=Mar 23 2007, 04:09 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Mar 23 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1616536[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whats important is the skill required to go from newbie to simply being <i>effective</i>. And in that regard, CS beats NS hands down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was hoping someone would make this point. I just couldn't get this to bubble to the top of my very long list of things to do lately, or I would have said this myself sooner.
Comments
If this destroys a few games, everyone's normal. If it destroys games over and over, with the same set of players, someone isn't making the most of the opportunity in the long run, and that's unfortunate, as depth isn't merely the best attribute of NS, but also of its players.
If this destroys a few games, everyone's normal. If it destroys games over and over, with the same set of players, someone isn't making the most of the opportunity in the long run, and that's unfortunate, as depth isn't merely the best attribute of NS, but also of its players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This has happened to me today on the BAD server. Mak's a good player. But when you play with him, you realize that nobody can get out of the hive, which means no res being capped, spawn camping and no fades. It's boring when someone is this good. What can be done about extremely good players other than kicking them? He shuts down a server of 30 people and locks the aliens in their hive every game.
You've got to plan ahead and see disaster coming. The moment a potent marine force (be it 1 or 6 strong) gets near your hive in the early game, you've got to alert your team, and your team has to respond.
Get four skulks (or two, or whatever's required, given the threat) within close proximity of the threat, and identify who's leading the force. Once everyone's staged (no one has line of sight on the marine at this point, as that tends to lead to dead skulks), everyone obtains LOS on the threat at the same time, overpowering his weapon's ability to counter the attack (you can only aim at so many skulks at once).
That requires a level of teamwork that I admit you won't find everywhere. I enjoy that level of teamplay every night. It really doesn't take that much personal skill per unit. It just takes discipline (waiting to move in), communication, and coordination. If that combination sounds like an unfair expectation, see sig.
now this is critical and you have to understand this, otherwise were not progressing anywhere: ns is a game. youre not supposed to know everything the minute you first start playing. youre supposed to learn to play the game and you will learn the game unless you have some kind of serious syndrome or whatever. its the same with every game to be honest. maybe theyve permanently removed everything related to sports and games at american schools, this is really the only answer i can think of.
obviously the problem here is that the skulks dont want to get better, they want to do the same things theyve always done, who cares if they work or not.
now this is critical and you have to understand this, otherwise were not progressing anywhere: ns is a game. youre not supposed to know everything the minute you first start playing. youre supposed to learn to play the game and you will learn the game unless you have some kind of serious syndrome or whatever. its the same with every game to be honest. maybe theyve permanently removed everything related to sports and games at american schools, this is really the only answer i can think of.
My position is that there should be a way to segment skill levels, because throwing the newbie in the ring with the best is the worst experience ever. That newbie is likely to assume this game is too hard and move on. Yeah, you can learn and get better - there is a skill curve in every game - but that depends on if your frustration level from dying over and over with no chance outweighs your desire to get better. The more casual a player you are, the lower your tolerance is for the ridiculous NS endgames.
But I acknowledge that whether this is a game for the masses is the dev's decision and many people are against it. Maybe NS mode is only meant for the hardcore minority and CO for the masses. That's what it looks like.
I think our positions have been established in this thread.
My position is that there should be a way segment skill levels, because throwing the newbie in the ring with the best is the worst experience ever. That newbie is likely to assume this game is too hard and move on. Yeah, you can learn and get better - there is a skill curve in every game - but that depends on if your frustration level from dying over and over with no chance outweighs your desire to get better. The more casual a player you are, the lower your tolerance is for the ridiculous NS endgames.
But I acknowledge that whether this is a game for the masses is the dev's decision and many people are against it. Maybe NS mode is only meant for the hardcore minority and CO for the masses. That's what it looks like.
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The general public skill level is well low. Of course some guy may own here and there, but everyone should be able to frag if they just try the game out twice or so. At least I wouldn't care if one guy wasted me dozens of times as long as I can see that most of the server is having the same problems.
marines , the commander recieves the recourses , and marines gain points. but make it so every upgrade still needs the specific chamber/upgrade.
so even though you gain a point to use that ability, you still need the commander to upgrade it to lvl 3 or the gorge to build 3 chambers.
.................... just a random thought....
Think for a second, gorges could get access to the entire alien res pool like they used to have, but <i>without</i> the problem of players sucking up all the res with lifeforms. This more or less solves the problem of "perma gorging is boring", and makes going gorge an intuitive choice because it's the first thing players have access to while everything else is locked.
It solves the problem of "ohnoes small game aliens dropped five nodes gg infinite fades".
It allows an atmospheric "swell" of tension as aliens kill marines AND makes dying more of a big deal for marines. In this way it makes playing aliens more interesting and K:D based which might get players to stack rines less, since they could fade much quicker if they knew how to skulk (which encourages skillful skulking).
I would love to see this done, if not in NS, then in a third game mode.
I think our positions have been established in this thread.
My position is that there should be a way to segment skill levels, because throwing the newbie in the ring with the best is the worst experience ever. That newbie is likely to assume this game is too hard and move on. Yeah, you can learn and get better - there is a skill curve in every game - but that depends on if your frustration level from dying over and over with no chance outweighs your desire to get better. The more casual a player you are, the lower your tolerance is for the ridiculous NS endgames.
But I acknowledge that whether this is a game for the masses is the dev's decision and many people are against it. Maybe NS mode is only meant for the hardcore minority and CO for the masses. That's what it looks like.
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I totally agree. I'd enjoy the game more if I were matched with people with my level of play versus a noob or a pro game. NS shoves everyone into the same bowl, which makes the pros stand out coincidentally. As you've said, new players could tolerate this game more if they were paired with other new players, than the pro that kills them spawn after spawn...
I don't think the game could be segmented with so few players on right now. I'd rather have some sort of in-game fix to allow everyone to player together. Either we have a handicap or we modify the game to be easier for everyone in order to stabilize players.
It takes one dedicated admin to kick the few players who aren't low skill enough and still keep joining the server.
I wonder what would happen if someone turned a server into a newbie paradise. Too much ownaging gets you banned for a day or so. This way you could have your games without the skill difference and there would still be public servers for the skilled ones to play. Just to try things out if not anything else. There should be a plenty of empty servers to test with.
It takes one dedicated admin to kick the few players who aren't low skill enough and still keep joining the server.
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Already implemented on several servers (unintentionally, I'm sure). You just get a stagnant playerbase that never gets better.
We were all newbs one time. We've all been owned hard, thousands of times. Its simply a matter of personal drive, and also of humility, as to whether you'll keep at it. If you only derive pleasure from winning, you'll never enjoy a new videogame ever again, except for those that are either singleplayer or have no new or unique skills required.
To change the game to accomodate bad players so they can compete with good players is folly. If you make things too easy then it does 2 things: 1) Good players find the class even easier to use and are even more effective. 2) In making things that easy to use you remove any sort of skill ladder and the game becomes boring for players who enjoy more than a hour on a random server. You make things easy to learn but difficult to master. This game is balanced, what it needs is accessibility and a larger community. New players would enjoy the game more if they knew what they were doing, if there was a training map, if there were better supports in place to help the new player grasp the concept of playing a melee unit.
Take the example of bunnyhopping. It's unfortunate but the most critical skill in NS is bunnyhopping, not for the actual bunnyhopping itself but because once you learn to bunnyhop, you master the art of air control and HL's movement quirks. Your ability to survive engagements greatly increases when you understand this aspect of the game. Whilst bunnyhopping is itself totally supported, there is no official manual to teach it and to in turn unlock other skills like double jumping etc. The problem here isn't bunnyhopping, the answer isn't to increase base skulk speed so new players are on par, the answer is to provide training and instruction as part of NS.
Hopefully this example shows how you can make the game easier for new players whilst still maintaining that skill ladder which more competitively minded people greatly enjoy.
how about blending co and ns, to a cons! so you can get multiple upgrades with points while fighting, yet gorges can gain recources to contruct buildings and hives, aliens will gain recourses when they use a point to go gorge.
marines , the commander recieves the recourses , and marines gain points. but make it so every upgrade still needs the specific chamber/upgrade.
so even though you gain a point to use that ability, you still need the commander to upgrade it to lvl 3 or the gorge to build 3 chambers.
.................... just a random thought....
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Quoting this for emphasis, if anyone missed it. I think it would work better for aliens than for rines, but it was an interesting idea to me.
I'm totally disappointed about DoD:S, been playing since the Beta (which doesn't mean anything) but they changed the game way too much. Red Orchestra is imo better.
Yes CS has a larger community, but NS has maximum teamplay <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
So the hell with popularity, no need to "fix" NS ^^
$parki <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Ben, you could look at games like CS and DOD and tell me that's how things are. But then I tell you to look at Warcraft III or Halo 2 and see how they run things there. Of course they don't artificially change players, but they do the next best thing: match people accordingly. And it works.
So you say that making things easier only helps pro players? Well, I'm liking the fade now and can get to where some of the better fades in the servers I play are at. I still see players that are good with fade, but now I can get there... well it's helped me at least.
I guess if you aren't going to change the game... Then would you change the players? Handicap them? Or segment them into different areas?
While I do understand learning and then achieving is great, throwing a pro to rape you dozens of times before you get anywhere isn't the only choice. It's as if you start a new game on hard mode and call that learning. Or you could take a more leveled route and play with players your choice. You slowly become better with the players, rather than the hard way. That's why we don't do the final exam in one day at school. We take time to get better.
Perhaps my idea of making the game easier is flawed. But I still don't think nubs learning from dying 40 times is the best way possible. As some have said, it's frustrating and would more likely cause the player to quit playing. At the same time, I don't feel a practice level with comps is the best way to learn accurately.
I just want a way to get everyone in the same basket, yet we don't have players that are totally useless because they don't have insane reflexes.
As fancy as you sound Stix, the reality is that nobody likes playing 5 games where aliens can't get out of their hive due to one super aiming marine. The aliens feel frustrated, while the other marines feel they did not contribute at all to the win. It's that one marines show. There is no zen feeling at all; just a bunch of people who are ###### off and others that feel useless.
Ben, you could look at games like CS and DOD and tell me that's how things are. But then I tell you to look at Warcraft III or Halo 2 and see how they run things there. Of course they don't artificially change players, but they do the next best thing: match people accordingly. And it works.
So you say that making things easier only helps pro players? Well, I'm liking the fade now and can get to where some of the better fades in the servers I play are at. I still see players that are good with fade, but now I can get there... well it's helped me at least.
I guess if you aren't going to change the game... Then would you change the players? Handicap them? Or segment them into different areas?
While I do understand learning and then achieving is great, throwing a pro to rape you dozens of times before you get anywhere isn't the only choice. It's as if you start a new game on hard mode and call that learning. Or you could take a more leveled route and play with players your choice. You slowly become better with the players, rather than the hard way. That's why we don't do the final exam in one day at school. We take time to get better.
Perhaps my idea of making the game easier is flawed. But I still don't think nubs learning from dying 40 times is the best way possible. As some have said, it's frustrating and would more likely cause the player to quit playing. At the same time, I don't feel a practice level with comps is the best way to learn accurately.
I just want a way to get everyone in the same basket, yet we don't have players that are totally useless because they don't have insane reflexes.
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Why do you bother posting at all? Honestly, all you ever say is how much everyone is better than you and therefore the devs should make NS even for everyone. Why don't you just join a farm team and get better at NS? That way we won't have to listen to your daily posts about how one player can ruin the game for everyone.
Scroll back and look at what Kyliegirl said. It made some sense imo.
I dunno. Frankly, most games where aliens get dominated, its very likely that they either didnt have an early lerk, or he played the role horrible. If prostar marines are running about, well, not much they can do about gas.
If you can't handle reading my posts without feeling some emotion, then do your best to handle it. I play NS, I observer what happens and I write it down. Whether or not I like what is happening doesn't change the fact that it is happening.
I just happen to think game after game where aliens as a whole can't get out of their hive due to one extreme player is ridiculous. As I've said before, the aliens give up and the other marines feel useless. It's even hard for a top marine the game before to join aliens.
So please, construct to what I'm saying, or don't bother posting your whines. And Harrower, you brought this onto yourself by asking what could be done to FIX NS. So act mature and prove me why I'm wrong instead of trying to redirect others from my posts.
Stix I appreciate your suggestions, but people have been doing that. Maybe you've tried these games before.
I'm personally against dumbing down gameplay, since I think that the result will be boring gameplay. At least from my point of view. This is how I look at it:
I've played this game for a long time. I have struggled to learn how to play it decently and eventually I succeeded. The rewards show every time I play pubs and, if there was a significant competitive community, it would show in competitive games. However, when the game is dumbed down, it feels like my hard work is pretty much destroyed as I have to conform to an easier and more rigid type of gameplay.
Now, I realize that this is very selfish. Yes. I am selfish as a player who put several years into getting to the point where I can walk over pubs. However, I know that my selfishness is bad for the game. A high skill bracket is what ensures that fewer people will enjoy the game and even fewer will ever reach a competitive level of play.
I think it's important to distinguish between one's own interests and the interests of the game.
oh wait.
people want to win. winning is fun and provides instant gratification. Much like something else that people spend a lot of time doing....
yes, scratch and win lotto tickets.
why don't people enjoy losing?! They can learn from their loses! It just doesn't make sense.
oh wait.
people want to win. winning is fun and provides instant gratification. Much like something else that people spend a lot of time doing....
yes, scratch and win lotto tickets.
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Join a farm team and get better. Quit ######.
why don't people enjoy losing?! They can learn from their loses! It just doesn't make sense.
oh wait.
people want to win. winning is fun and provides instant gratification. Much like something else that people spend a lot of time doing....
yes, scratch and win lotto tickets.
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That's not what I spend a lot of time doing........... wink wink, nudge nudge
Losing in NS is dreadful on pub servers when the other team drags it on for an unecessary extra 15 minutes just to get fully teched before finishing off the one-hive-one-rt-all-lower-life-form aliens.
[FAT]'s Accidental Bowel Movement 4 L1f3!!!
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point and click.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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I hate to derail but unless you've actually been good at CS then what qualifies you to say how hard a game is? CS takes <b>considerably</b> more skill and thought than NS does (and always has done).
Claiming that a game is "point and click" is completely retarded, because when you have a game which is played to a competetive level, there comes a point with the top teams where how well a person can aim is completely irrelevant, look at the top CS teams today - every single player in every single team at the CPL has insane aim - what differentiates teams at that level is teamwork, experience, judgement calls and tactics. Not exactly what I'd call a "point and click" divider.
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Compared to NS, Counterstrike is a very easy game to play.
Does this mean its easy to get good enough at CS to win clan matches? No, there's a fairly high skill ceiling, and it definately takes some effort to reach a competitive level, just like in NS. I don't have the experience to say whether competitive CS is more or less skill intensive then competitive NS, but they both take work.
But thats not the point. For a new player considering whether to keep playing this new game that he's just found, the skill required to go from average to pro is irrelevant. Whats important is the skill required to go from newbie to simply being <i>effective</i>. And in that regard, CS beats NS hands down.
A new NS player won't be effective on either team until he learns a bunch of things he's likely never had to deal with before. Any CS nub can save up some money to buy a rifle, and post a half-way decent kill ratio against other average players (were not talking about clanners here), so long as he has some basic aim skills. But a new player in NS has to learn an entirely new play-style before he can even begin to be effective as an alien. Things are a little better as a Marine, where at least you have the familiar gun and cross hairs, but the novice marine still has to deal with some of the fastest moving targets available in an FPS, enemies that can become completely invisible, enemies that drop off ceilings to bite him in the back, higher alien lifeforms that are all but unkillable for a marine without backup, a system that doesnt just <i>reward</i> teamwork but <i>requires</i> it, and the concept of "not fighting so you can stop and build resnodes".
NS is a very hard game to <i>start</i> playing. CO_ does a little to help the transition, but many players who start with CO_ never progress past it to see the richness offered by NS_. Even someone who has mastered the basic combat techniques offered by CO_ still has a lot to learn before he can be an effective NS_ player. So I suggest one thing we need is more attention paid to training new players to cultivate a future player base. This can tie back in to other issues discussed such as complainst about "elitist clanners".
Shooting in CS is decently intuitive, both from other FPS games and understanding guns. Shooting as a marine in NS is also intuitive enough, the problem comes with aliens being unlike anything the newbie has probably ever played. I know that even without bunnyhopping/movement, there's a lot that a newbie skulk CAN do, but the problem isn't what he CAN do, it's what he'll figure out, and the experience from other FPS's will probably lead him to seek to directly confront the marines, rather than ambush, attack RTs, wait for a distraction, etc.
Honestly, I feel that a lot of the balance problems in NS could be solved by adding a good tutorial map, and possibly making it required(or at least highly suggested) that new players play it. Everyone(figuratively) is arguing, "Aliens are fine if you get good at skulking." Well, most new players aren't going to have the faintest idea how to do that.
I was hoping someone would make this point. I just couldn't get this to bubble to the top of my very long list of things to do lately, or I would have said this myself sooner.