<!--quoteo(post=1612524:date=Mar 8 2007, 03:18 AM:name=Femme_Fatale)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale @ Mar 8 2007, 03:18 AM) [snapback]1612524[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> yes. your point being ? i see people cooperating there.
and a definition of a public server : a server that has no password. so what you basically are saying is. you dont like to play NS. at all. i just dont like ppl WHINING about nonstop dumb pubbers. its a frigging game.people play roles of x and y no matter what. this patch if anything teaches people that teamplay and coop is more important than ever.
so please instead of flaming me, take a good long look in the mirror. it all starts with yourself. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You must have a different definition of teamwork then, because most of the teamwork I see on G4B2S is purely coincidental, especially on aliens. I find it especially ironic that you would accuse others of playing on "bad pubs" when you play on a 15 vs 15 server where at any given moment, there are perhaps 4 people with an inkling of how to play NS.
Might I also point out this is why many people seem to believe that aliens are somehow underpowered. Aliens need more coordination, especially early-game - if you're playing on a server where this doesn't happen, of course aliens are going to lose more.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Right, don't turn this into server-bashing please.
<b>SmoodCroozn</b> so what you want is a strategy game without any physical skill? My suggestion: go play chess. Pretty much every computer game, including strategy-based games require some form of "physical skill". Strategy-based games such as Wc3 or SC need a high APM, for example.
If a skulk or marine has spent days practicing his movement or aim then of course he should be able to kill players that hasn't. That's like claiming that a basketball high-school team that takes on a team from the NBA should stand the same chance to win. It just doesn't make sense. Whoever has practiced the most will be the best.
However, my point about not winning games on your own still stand. So he defended those nodes. Did he drop them? Did he drop the second hive and the chambers? No he didn't. So did he win the game on his own without his teammates? No he didn't. The team wouldn't have won without him, and he wouldn't have won without his team. Isn't that the essence of team-based games?
9-22 late-game actually isn't that a bad score as a skulk. Even if you only get one or two bites on a marine when you're attacking their siege location doesn't mean you haven't done anything for your team, because you have. The marines have gotten distracted leaving open opportunities for your teammates. The comm had to spend res on meds that could have gone further towards that HA train and one of the marines teammates had to stop defending the position to weld his teammate leaving further gaps in the defence.
Because one player racks up all the kills does not mean he won the game by himself, which I explained in my post above.
Just to add to the bottom line. If two players of equal "physical ability" as you put it get into a fight. One has used his brains and gotten the fight into a situation that is advantageous to him then he will win it. Brains do matter more than you think.
I'd say the biggest skill-gap in NS is between the players who analyze their personal game and the game mechanics in general. These players also tend to be the ones that develop the fastest and become the best since they can spot their own flaws, just like it's supposed to be.
This game is called Natural Selection for a reason. If this was reality then I guess you wouldn't have made the cut.
<!--quoteo(post=1612477:date=Mar 8 2007, 02:14 AM:name=Injuis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Injuis @ Mar 8 2007, 02:14 AM) [snapback]1612477[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Some interesting thoughts brewing about... here are mine:
-Marine movement not realistic enough?<ul><li>I agree with the marine stamina idea. Aliens have a speed cut with carapace, marines should have a similar drawback (HA is NOT a counter argument!)</li><li>Marine bunny-hopping/crack-jumping should have been fixed ages ago. How many times have you approached a marine only to have him notice you and jump backwards FASTER than you can move forward? It is quite ridiculous in terms of realism and play mechanics. This is by FAR my number one suggestion to 'help' the skulk balancing situation.</li></ul>-Skulks needs more life/speed?<ul><li>Yes and No. Early game, I believe the skulk HP situation is adequate. Yes, there are plenty of games where one lone marine can spawn camp, but I believe that is related to marine movement being flawed (see above). Late games are a different story, very high damage marine weapons coupled with area-effect weapons, not to mention the thick armor makes it very hard for a skulk to really be a large threat.</li></ul>-In conclusion<ul><li>Fix or get rid of Marine bunny hopping/crack-jumping</li><li>REMOVE the carapace penalty for skulks. There's a reason why nobody does DC first anymore. Carapace is practically the only DC chamber solution for a skulk (regenerating 4 hit points means nothing in a battle, redemption skulk? I don't think so)</li></ul>On a side note, why did they devs decide to implement the chamber upgrade restrictions again? I don't remember what version that was, but man was it great to have 2 carapace and 1 regen. the good ole days.... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for agreeing with the stamina idea about marine movement; we need more people to agree with that.
But I disagree about DC not working. I was playing on the G4B2S server a day or two ago and won THREE games in a row but dropping DC first. Now you have to realize we also communicated well and capped RTs or denied RTs to the marines very well. Doing that gave us our second hive fairly fast. Now this is impressive considering that a lot of people there feel marines with about 90% of the time on that server. I think it proves that DC is fine as a chamber.
The chamber order for those games were: DMS, DMS, and DSM (almost lost it at one point but a highly skilled focus fade from who was skilled from fading on the 187 combat server saved us)
What it really comes down to is control of resources and it's harder for skulks to control resources than marines because of marines having both ranged firepower and nearly equivical movement. If skulks were faster too then scaling walls to evade fire and implement death from above would be far easier.
The skulk should be the fastest class in the game, or as fas a flying lerk, in my opinion. The model has a body built much like a cheetah actually: <img src="http://www.xzianthia.net/images/skulk_leftside.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> <img src="http://www.xzianthia.net/images/cheetah.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> (sorry for large image size I'll resize and re-upload)
Its very VERY true that the skulk is built similarly to the cheetah (Although it would have superior balance due to having TWO tails... ) and what you say, to me, makes perfect sense.
I was hoping a few of you would agree with that statement of opinion, actually I hope most of you agree.
Those things would be easy enough to add. I have the source code to implement a DoD like stamina system from another mod which sucked and never worked out and adjusting skulk base speed slightly is just a simple constant. The hardest thing would be making sure the stamina system wasn't bugged and getting NS-like sprites for the HUD GUI. Actually... do we even need a HUD display of stamina? Isn't something a pro player would "feel" like the pro DoD players? So then the only two hard things then are making sure the stamina system only applies to the marine class and testing if for bugs. Hell I could code that in a few minutes, compiling might take a hour or two (or probably 20min on my machine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ), and then need to find some friends to test. Voila, NS version 3.2.1 a la carte!
lol. Not really though. Unless you want to make a infinite improbability drive upgrade for marines. The only downside it that it takes a few jigawatts to power it.
But I was being serious about doing what I said earlier. Give me the necessary .h files and a small crack team of daring beta testers. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
In the meantime, how could I make an AMXX plugin to do this? Is it possible? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1612697:date=Mar 9 2007, 12:10 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 9 2007, 12:10 AM) [snapback]1612697[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You must have a different definition of teamwork then, because most of the teamwork I see on G4B2S is purely coincidental, especially on aliens. I find it especially ironic that you would accuse others of playing on "bad pubs" when you play on a 15 vs 15 server where at any given moment, there are perhaps 4 people with an inkling of how to play NS.
Might I also point out this is why many people seem to believe that aliens are somehow underpowered. Aliens need more coordination, especially early-game - if you're playing on a server where this doesn't happen, of course aliens are going to lose more. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you dont know me, thus stop assuming you know where i play,g4b2s isnt the only server in my list.
i play on 8v8 servers too. and i agree with tankefugl
if youre bashing "pubs" youre basically bashing every open server out there. so please.
Nobody wants to help me fix this? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Off-topic:
<!--QuoteBegin-Femme_Fatale+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if youre bashing "pubs" youre basically bashing every open server out there. so please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. However isn't an open server the definition of a public server? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1612891:date=Mar 9 2007, 12:42 AM:name=Femme_Fatale)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale @ Mar 9 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]1612891[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> you dont know me, thus stop assuming you know where i play,g4b2s isnt the only server in my list.
i play on 8v8 servers too. and i agree with tankefugl
if youre bashing "pubs" youre basically bashing every open server out there. so please. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about you improve your reading comprehension and stop spewing out retarded, baseless accusations? I have never made any references to public servers - or pubbers for that matter - except when I was quoting you. I asked one simple question, and you somehow extrapolated a whole array of meanings out of a single sentence. I play competitively. I also play on pubs. All competitive players are also pubbers to a degree. There are a few public servers I happen to have a high opinion of.
I have not been "flaming" or "whining", and in fact, I have kept myself very civil by my usual standards. The only flaming and whining so far is by you, you hypocritical, incoherent ###### with a persecution complex who always cries "OMG UR BEIN MEEN, I'M NOT TALKING 2 U ANYMORE" whenever you are engaged in a debate.
Returning to the original topic a bit. NS should never be balanced on what is "balanced" in combat. Skulks can die to marines often and still repel them simply because skulks can move faster. As marines push deeper, it takes longer for their backup to arrive, and shorter for aliens to reach the marines. Skulks are intended to be scouting, chewing nodes, and setting up ambushes. Most of the time I see somebody playing skulk, they are trying to walker skulk down marines. The problem isn't the skulk is too weak, the problem is the players.
Obviously you've never seen one ubermarine mow down Alien Spawn because he bunny hops all over the place, and has resupply. He rapes you, the rest of the team sits and gets Xp... GL spam 4tl.
<!--quoteo(post=1613028:date=Mar 9 2007, 10:39 AM:name=Auren)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Auren @ Mar 9 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]1613028[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Obviously you've never seen one ubermarine mow down Alien Spawn because he bunny hops all over the place, and has resupply. He rapes you, the rest of the team sits and gets Xp... GL spam 4tl. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So why exactly is this a problem? If aliens let marines walk into their hive (and vice versa), they should suffer the consequences.
Because one ubermarine should not be able to rape an alien team of fifteen decent players. You know how he does it? Bunnyhopping. If Marine cannot bunnyhop, then the marine team cannot to overrun and kill an entire alien team. And you know what? The team <i>tries</i> to shutdown that marine, but due to how badly a marine can pwn a skulk with an LMG... It ain't fair. If anything, to make things a *little bit* more equal, fix the damn bite gun and make skulks better, as in perhaps 80 HP and 20 armor with 40 armor with Carapace. Then things are equal earlier and later in the game.
Marine Bunnyhopping is 1-way, uphill. It doesnt work on flat ground at all. Most Hives arent on hills, and if they are, that makes the marine's bunnyhop motion completely predictable--and therefore, counterable.
Bitegun isn't broken, and marines can't effectively bunnyhop, so your complaint makes no sense to me.
Its not exploiting at all. Its simply optimal use of game physics.
Do you wigglewalk or wall walk? I wouldnt be surprised if you didnt. Its simply a higher level of playing, and it requires more work, for marginal speed improvements. But some players want those little speed improvements no matter the cost.
When you're talking about marines using evasive jumping, thats not bunnyhopping. Thats ONE jump. Thats all that NS allows really, for marines. You could do it too, its not even that hard. And i have no issues killing marines who use it.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited March 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1611605:date=Mar 5 2007, 07:00 PM:name=Rapier7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Mar 5 2007, 07:00 PM) [snapback]1611605[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Skulk base speed increased to 350/s. Skulk base armor increased to 25, full carapace gives 50. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You had me up until that, then I had a really good laugh. A skulk that moved this fast by default would be pretty ridiculous. The reason skulks don't move twice as fast as marines is that most hallways in NS can be covered in 2-3 bhop bounds, making skulks faster just cuts this down even more. Skulk speed isn't that important in 1v1 combat, its the agility it has versus a marine that is important. Smart players don't walk down long hallways, this is why good marines get impressive ratios, people don't understand walker skulking down a hallway is a bad idea.
Also, for the guy above talking about bhopping marines and such, he is probably talking about extralvl-roflbad combat when marines get cybernetics. If you don't want to see that, don't play on bad servers with bad plugins.
<!--quoteo(post=1612859:date=Mar 9 2007, 06:14 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Mar 9 2007, 06:14 AM) [snapback]1612859[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> yeah and one of the marine models is black,maybe black marines should be allowed to jump infinitely high <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NOT being racist here... Take a quote from South Park: The Movie "Operation: Get Behind The Darkies" ... lol
<!--quoteo(post=1613094:date=Mar 9 2007, 04:54 PM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 9 2007, 04:54 PM) [snapback]1613094[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> He might not be bunnyhopping, he could be double jumping which can be done on flat ground... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the only reason to double jump is to be quiet. consecutive glide jumping is actually faster, so I don't see your point.
<!--quoteo(post=1613073:date=Mar 9 2007, 03:20 PM:name=Auren)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Auren @ Mar 9 2007, 03:20 PM) [snapback]1613073[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Because one ubermarine should not be able to rape an alien team of fifteen decent players. You know how he does it? Bunnyhopping. If Marine cannot bunnyhop, then the marine team cannot to overrun and kill an entire alien team. And you know what? The team <i>tries</i> to shutdown that marine, but due to how badly a marine can pwn a skulk with an LMG... It ain't fair. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
man i felt sorry for those poor guys, what were the devs thinking allowing some unbalanced stuff like that ever happen... it just ain't fair
<!--quoteo(post=1613084:date=Mar 9 2007, 04:11 PM:name=TheAdj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheAdj @ Mar 9 2007, 04:11 PM) [snapback]1613084[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Also, for the guy above talking about bhopping marines and such, he is probably talking about extralvl-roflbad combat when marines get cybernetics. If you don't want to see that, don't play on bad servers with bad plugins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what the ef are you talking about. jumping around the hive with level 5 cybernetics and a shotgun like you're crack is one of the funniest things one can do on a pub.
<!--quoteo(post=1612859:date=Mar 9 2007, 01:14 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Mar 9 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]1612859[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> yeah and one of the marine models is black,maybe black marines should be allowed to jump infinitely high<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> haha, maybe not infinitely high but a lot higher anyways. it would actually be really ###### funny and spice this game up a bit. i vote for implement, implement now
<!--quoteo(post=1613094:date=Mar 9 2007, 09:54 PM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 9 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]1613094[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The major difference being that the marines are already one step above aliens in every aspect now. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to realize fin, that you're on the OFFICIAL forums now. This isnt g4b2s forums where everyone agrees with you, saying 'aliens have 0 chance now, gg ns'.
No. These are the real forums for the game, and it appears the consensus it that 3.2 is balanced. And not a word of it has entered your head.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Maradona was a hacker.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what the ef are you talking about. jumping around the hive with level 5 cybernetics and a shotgun like you're crack is one of the funniest things one can do on a pub.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you sure you don't mean the only fun thing you can do on a pub?
African-American(!) marines should run faster than white trash marines.
3.2 is far from perfectly balanced, but it's a hell of a lot better balanced than 3.1.
TheAdj, I'm not one of the skulks running down a straight hallway. I ambush, I use vents, I para and all that. But the fact is that this isn't enough for skulks. Even an ambush isn't a guaranteed kill, depending on the marine.
I don't want to increase the bunnyhopping speed, but I definitely want the base speed increased and a bit more starting armor so skulks aren't so paper thin. The changes don't have to be exactly what I proposed, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.
Marines have always dominated, in my opinion, from 3.0 beta 1 and on. In my very brief stint when I actually clanned and watched matches, it was always a marine tie, unless one team was clearly better than the other. For marines, it was all about piling on the pressure in the early game and gain enough territory and res so they can deal with the fade threat later on.
I don't want games to be balanced by that principle. Fades and lerks should be complementary to skulks, NOT the other way around.
<!--quoteo(post=1613168:date=Mar 9 2007, 11:34 PM:name=Rapier7)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rapier7 @ Mar 9 2007, 11:34 PM) [snapback]1613168[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> TheAdj, I'm not one of the skulks running down a straight hallway. I ambush, I use vents, I para and all that. But the fact is that this isn't enough for skulks. Even an ambush isn't a guaranteed kill, depending on the marine.
I don't want to increase the bunnyhopping speed, but I definitely want the base speed increased and a bit more starting armor so skulks aren't so paper thin. The changes don't have to be exactly what I proposed, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.
Marines have always dominated, in my opinion, from 3.0 beta 1 and on. In my very brief stint when I actually clanned and watched matches, it was always a marine tie, unless one team was clearly better than the other. For marines, it was all about piling on the pressure in the early game and gain enough territory and res so they can deal with the fade threat later on.
I don't want games to be balanced by that principle. Fades and lerks should be complementary to skulks, NOT the other way around. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why should higher lifeforms be complementary to the starting unit for aliens? Thats like saying JP and HAs with heavy weapons should be complementary to a standard LMG light armor marine. It doesn't make sense at all.
Skulks are fine the way they are. The only time skulks appear to be too weak is in a 12v12 or higher pub. In this situation, adjusting skulk speeds and/or health and armor values is not the solution. Adjusting the way alien res flow works is the way to go. The solution isn't in messing with the base unit, it lies with finding the right way to scale alien res flow with the number of players.
I find it highly amusing that you think you know what goes on in competitive play with your brief stint in clanning. What was it? Less than a month in which you played in less than 10 scrims or matches? Throughout 3.1 aliens held the advantage. Only when there was a team that played very well on marines, or just camped a hive until they got JPs and pushed out (i.e. Reflect), was there a 2-0.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Adjust the RFK for aliens, I believe that is probably the key to fixing many of the balance problems. Whereas the commander can use the RFK from marines for the entire team, aliens should have some sharing of RFK (or bonus to every alien player from RFK in addition to what is given to the harvester).
Comments
yes.
your point being ?
i see people cooperating there.
and a definition of a public server :
a server that has no password.
so what you basically are saying is.
you dont like to play NS.
at all.
i just dont like ppl WHINING about nonstop dumb pubbers.
its a frigging game.people play roles of x and y no matter what.
this patch if anything teaches people that teamplay and coop is more important than ever.
so please instead of flaming me, take a good long look in the mirror.
it all starts with yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must have a different definition of teamwork then, because most of the teamwork I see on G4B2S is purely coincidental, especially on aliens. I find it especially ironic that you would accuse others of playing on "bad pubs" when you play on a 15 vs 15 server where at any given moment, there are perhaps 4 people with an inkling of how to play NS.
Might I also point out this is why many people seem to believe that aliens are somehow underpowered. Aliens need more coordination, especially early-game - if you're playing on a server where this doesn't happen, of course aliens are going to lose more.
If a skulk or marine has spent days practicing his movement or aim then of course he should be able to kill players that hasn't. That's like claiming that a basketball high-school team that takes on a team from the NBA should stand the same chance to win. It just doesn't make sense. Whoever has practiced the most will be the best.
However, my point about not winning games on your own still stand. So he defended those nodes. Did he drop them? Did he drop the second hive and the chambers? No he didn't. So did he win the game on his own without his teammates? No he didn't. The team wouldn't have won without him, and he wouldn't have won without his team. Isn't that the essence of team-based games?
9-22 late-game actually isn't that a bad score as a skulk. Even if you only get one or two bites on a marine when you're attacking their siege location doesn't mean you haven't done anything for your team, because you have. The marines have gotten distracted leaving open opportunities for your teammates. The comm had to spend res on meds that could have gone further towards that HA train and one of the marines teammates had to stop defending the position to weld his teammate leaving further gaps in the defence.
Because one player racks up all the kills does not mean he won the game by himself, which I explained in my post above.
Just to add to the bottom line. If two players of equal "physical ability" as you put it get into a fight. One has used his brains and gotten the fight into a situation that is advantageous to him then he will win it. Brains do matter more than you think.
I'd say the biggest skill-gap in NS is between the players who analyze their personal game and the game mechanics in general. These players also tend to be the ones that develop the fastest and become the best since they can spot their own flaws, just like it's supposed to be.
This game is called Natural Selection for a reason. If this was reality then I guess you wouldn't have made the cut.
Some interesting thoughts brewing about... here are mine:
-Marine movement not realistic enough?<ul><li>I agree with the marine stamina idea. Aliens have a speed cut with carapace, marines should have a similar drawback (HA is NOT a counter argument!)</li><li>Marine bunny-hopping/crack-jumping should have been fixed ages ago. How many times have you approached a marine only to have him notice you and jump backwards FASTER than you can move forward? It is quite ridiculous in terms of realism and play mechanics. This is by FAR my number one suggestion to 'help' the skulk balancing situation.</li></ul>-Skulks needs more life/speed?<ul><li>Yes and No. Early game, I believe the skulk HP situation is adequate. Yes, there are plenty of games where one lone marine can spawn camp, but I believe that is related to marine movement being flawed (see above). Late games are a different story, very high damage marine weapons coupled with area-effect weapons, not to mention the thick armor makes it very hard for a skulk to really be a large threat.</li></ul>-In conclusion<ul><li>Fix or get rid of Marine bunny hopping/crack-jumping</li><li>REMOVE the carapace penalty for skulks. There's a reason why nobody does DC first anymore. Carapace is practically the only DC chamber solution for a skulk (regenerating 4 hit points means nothing in a battle, redemption skulk? I don't think so)</li></ul>On a side note, why did they devs decide to implement the chamber upgrade restrictions again? I don't remember what version that was, but man was it great to have 2 carapace and 1 regen. the good ole days....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for agreeing with the stamina idea about marine movement; we need more people to agree with that.
But I disagree about DC not working. I was playing on the G4B2S server a day or two ago and won THREE games in a row but dropping DC first. Now you have to realize we also communicated well and capped RTs or denied RTs to the marines very well. Doing that gave us our second hive fairly fast. Now this is impressive considering that a lot of people there feel marines with about 90% of the time on that server. I think it proves that DC is fine as a chamber.
The chamber order for those games were: DMS, DMS, and DSM (almost lost it at one point but a highly skilled focus fade from who was skilled from fading on the 187 combat server saved us)
What it really comes down to is control of resources and it's harder for skulks to control resources than marines because of marines having both ranged firepower and nearly equivical movement. If skulks were faster too then scaling walls to evade fire and implement death from above would be far easier.
The skulk should be the fastest class in the game, or as fas a flying lerk, in my opinion. The model has a body built much like a cheetah actually:
<img src="http://www.xzianthia.net/images/skulk_leftside.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<img src="http://www.xzianthia.net/images/cheetah.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
(sorry for large image size I'll resize and re-upload)
Its very VERY true that the skulk is built similarly to the cheetah (Although it would have superior balance due to having TWO tails... ) and what you say, to me, makes perfect sense.
I was hoping a few of you would agree with that statement of opinion, actually I hope most of you agree.
Those things would be easy enough to add. I have the source code to implement a DoD like stamina system from another mod which sucked and never worked out and adjusting skulk base speed slightly is just a simple constant. The hardest thing would be making sure the stamina system wasn't bugged and getting NS-like sprites for the HUD GUI. Actually... do we even need a HUD display of stamina? Isn't something a pro player would "feel" like the pro DoD players? So then the only two hard things then are making sure the stamina system only applies to the marine class and testing if for bugs. Hell I could code that in a few minutes, compiling might take a hour or two (or probably 20min on my machine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ), and then need to find some friends to test. Voila, NS version 3.2.1 a la carte!
But I was being serious about doing what I said earlier. Give me the necessary .h files and a small crack team of daring beta testers. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
In the meantime, how could I make an AMXX plugin to do this? Is it possible? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
You must have a different definition of teamwork then, because most of the teamwork I see on G4B2S is purely coincidental, especially on aliens. I find it especially ironic that you would accuse others of playing on "bad pubs" when you play on a 15 vs 15 server where at any given moment, there are perhaps 4 people with an inkling of how to play NS.
Might I also point out this is why many people seem to believe that aliens are somehow underpowered. Aliens need more coordination, especially early-game - if you're playing on a server where this doesn't happen, of course aliens are going to lose more.
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you dont know me,
thus stop assuming you know where i play,g4b2s isnt the only server in my list.
i play on 8v8 servers too.
and i agree with tankefugl
if youre bashing "pubs"
youre basically bashing every open server out there.
so please.
Off-topic:
<!--QuoteBegin-Femme_Fatale+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Femme_Fatale)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if youre bashing "pubs"
youre basically bashing every open server out there.
so please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. However isn't an open server the definition of a public server? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
you dont know me,
thus stop assuming you know where i play,g4b2s isnt the only server in my list.
i play on 8v8 servers too.
and i agree with tankefugl
if youre bashing "pubs"
youre basically bashing every open server out there.
so please.
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How about you improve your reading comprehension and stop spewing out retarded, baseless accusations? I have never made any references to public servers - or pubbers for that matter - except when I was quoting you. I asked one simple question, and you somehow extrapolated a whole array of meanings out of a single sentence. I play competitively. I also play on pubs. All competitive players are also pubbers to a degree. There are a few public servers I happen to have a high opinion of.
I have not been "flaming" or "whining", and in fact, I have kept myself very civil by my usual standards. The only flaming and whining so far is by you, you hypocritical, incoherent ###### with a persecution complex who always cries "OMG UR BEIN MEEN, I'M NOT TALKING 2 U ANYMORE" whenever you are engaged in a debate.
Returning to the original topic a bit. NS should never be balanced on what is "balanced" in combat. Skulks can die to marines often and still repel them simply because skulks can move faster. As marines push deeper, it takes longer for their backup to arrive, and shorter for aliens to reach the marines. Skulks are intended to be scouting, chewing nodes, and setting up ambushes. Most of the time I see somebody playing skulk, they are trying to walker skulk down marines. The problem isn't the skulk is too weak, the problem is the players.
If you try to GL spam a Hive in NS, you'll quickly lose 75 res worth of Grenade Launchers for absolutely no benefit. Aliens LOVE it when you try that.
I so miss the old speed of the skulk we had in the old days. Now only celerity gets close.
Obviously you've never seen one ubermarine mow down Alien Spawn because he bunny hops all over the place, and has resupply. He rapes you, the rest of the team sits and gets Xp... GL spam 4tl.
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So why exactly is this a problem? If aliens let marines walk into their hive (and vice versa), they should suffer the consequences.
Marine Bunnyhopping is 1-way, uphill. It doesnt work on flat ground at all. Most Hives arent on hills, and if they are, that makes the marine's bunnyhop motion completely predictable--and therefore, counterable.
Bitegun isn't broken, and marines can't effectively bunnyhop, so your complaint makes no sense to me.
Do you wigglewalk or wall walk? I wouldnt be surprised if you didnt. Its simply a higher level of playing, and it requires more work, for marginal speed improvements. But some players want those little speed improvements no matter the cost.
When you're talking about marines using evasive jumping, thats not bunnyhopping. Thats ONE jump. Thats all that NS allows really, for marines. You could do it too, its not even that hard. And i have no issues killing marines who use it.
Skulk base speed increased to 350/s.
Skulk base armor increased to 25, full carapace gives 50.
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You had me up until that, then I had a really good laugh. A skulk that moved this fast by default would be pretty ridiculous. The reason skulks don't move twice as fast as marines is that most hallways in NS can be covered in 2-3 bhop bounds, making skulks faster just cuts this down even more. Skulk speed isn't that important in 1v1 combat, its the agility it has versus a marine that is important. Smart players don't walk down long hallways, this is why good marines get impressive ratios, people don't understand walker skulking down a hallway is a bad idea.
Also, for the guy above talking about bhopping marines and such, he is probably talking about extralvl-roflbad combat when marines get cybernetics. If you don't want to see that, don't play on bad servers with bad plugins.
yeah and one of the marine models is black,maybe black marines should be allowed to jump infinitely high
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NOT being racist here... Take a quote from South Park: The Movie "Operation: Get Behind The Darkies" ... lol
He might not be bunnyhopping, he could be double jumping which can be done on flat ground...
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the only reason to double jump is to be quiet. consecutive glide jumping is actually faster, so I don't see your point.
Because one ubermarine should not be able to rape an alien team of fifteen decent players. You know how he does it? Bunnyhopping. If Marine cannot bunnyhop, then the marine team cannot to overrun and kill an entire alien team. And you know what? The team <i>tries</i> to shutdown that marine, but due to how badly a marine can pwn a skulk with an LMG... It ain't fair. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=i9wXy29nR0M" target="_blank">http://youtube.com/watch?v=i9wXy29nR0M</a>
man i felt sorry for those poor guys, what were the devs thinking allowing some unbalanced stuff like that ever happen... it just ain't fair
<!--quoteo(post=1613084:date=Mar 9 2007, 04:11 PM:name=TheAdj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheAdj @ Mar 9 2007, 04:11 PM) [snapback]1613084[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Also, for the guy above talking about bhopping marines and such, he is probably talking about extralvl-roflbad combat when marines get cybernetics. If you don't want to see that, don't play on bad servers with bad plugins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what the ef are you talking about. jumping around the hive with level 5 cybernetics and a shotgun like you're crack is one of the funniest things one can do on a pub.
<!--quoteo(post=1612859:date=Mar 9 2007, 01:14 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Mar 9 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]1612859[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
yeah and one of the marine models is black,maybe black marines should be allowed to jump infinitely high<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha, maybe not infinitely high but a lot higher anyways. it would actually be really ###### funny and spice this game up a bit. i vote for implement, implement now
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You have to realize fin, that you're on the OFFICIAL forums now. This isnt g4b2s forums where everyone agrees with you, saying 'aliens have 0 chance now, gg ns'.
No. These are the real forums for the game, and it appears the consensus it that 3.2 is balanced. And not a word of it has entered your head.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what the ef are you talking about. jumping around the hive with level 5 cybernetics and a shotgun like you're crack is one of the funniest things one can do on a pub.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure you don't mean the only fun thing you can do on a pub?
African-American(!) marines should run faster than white trash marines.
3.2 is far from perfectly balanced, but it's a hell of a lot better balanced than 3.1.
I don't want to increase the bunnyhopping speed, but I definitely want the base speed increased and a bit more starting armor so skulks aren't so paper thin. The changes don't have to be exactly what I proposed, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.
Marines have always dominated, in my opinion, from 3.0 beta 1 and on. In my very brief stint when I actually clanned and watched matches, it was always a marine tie, unless one team was clearly better than the other. For marines, it was all about piling on the pressure in the early game and gain enough territory and res so they can deal with the fade threat later on.
I don't want games to be balanced by that principle. Fades and lerks should be complementary to skulks, NOT the other way around.
TheAdj, I'm not one of the skulks running down a straight hallway. I ambush, I use vents, I para and all that. But the fact is that this isn't enough for skulks. Even an ambush isn't a guaranteed kill, depending on the marine.
I don't want to increase the bunnyhopping speed, but I definitely want the base speed increased and a bit more starting armor so skulks aren't so paper thin. The changes don't have to be exactly what I proposed, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.
Marines have always dominated, in my opinion, from 3.0 beta 1 and on. In my very brief stint when I actually clanned and watched matches, it was always a marine tie, unless one team was clearly better than the other. For marines, it was all about piling on the pressure in the early game and gain enough territory and res so they can deal with the fade threat later on.
I don't want games to be balanced by that principle. Fades and lerks should be complementary to skulks, NOT the other way around.
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Why should higher lifeforms be complementary to the starting unit for aliens? Thats like saying JP and HAs with heavy weapons should be complementary to a standard LMG light armor marine. It doesn't make sense at all.
Skulks are fine the way they are. The only time skulks appear to be too weak is in a 12v12 or higher pub. In this situation, adjusting skulk speeds and/or health and armor values is not the solution. Adjusting the way alien res flow works is the way to go. The solution isn't in messing with the base unit, it lies with finding the right way to scale alien res flow with the number of players.
I find it highly amusing that you think you know what goes on in competitive play with your brief stint in clanning. What was it? Less than a month in which you played in less than 10 scrims or matches? Throughout 3.1 aliens held the advantage. Only when there was a team that played very well on marines, or just camped a hive until they got JPs and pushed out (i.e. Reflect), was there a 2-0.