Because of its FPS/RTS hybrid gameplay, NS is a game that plays totally different at various skill levels.
And so, we have a fundamental game balance problem : <b>Anything that balances gameplay at the highest skill levels will unbalance gameplay at average skill levels, and vice versa.</b>
Playing public games, the Aliens almost always win, and if the Marines win it is because they captured a Hive very fast, then moved to capture a 2nd hive, then killed off the remaining skulks and lerks. In contrast, scrim games between high-ranked clans result in Marines winning by rushing the Aliens' first Hive before they can get a second one. This strategy is impossible on public servers, where one good Skulk player can bite three newbie Marines to death with ease.
If the marine rush was somehow 'nerfed' so that high-level play was balanced, then average-level play would be horrifyingly imbalanced in favor of the Aliens.
That said, several of Shambler's (Eats) points are completely correct.
1) Skulk bite model is disorienting. The NS team has continued to say that they will not implement AvP-style wallcrawl for the Skulk because it disorients players. Yet, the skulk bite effect is every bit as disorienting as AvP wallcrawling, and it continues to be in the game; you can't easily turn it off. Why oh why?!??!?!
2) One hive aliens have no choice other than Skulk. Yes, a Lerk can be powerful in the hands of a good player. However, the fact that, by taking 33 RP from the pool, it *greatly* delays your taking a second Hive, makes one-Hive lerks a rather stupid choice in pub and scrim games. The problem with this is that Skulks alone just aren't good for game balance. The only way to kill a good Marine with Skulk is to sneak up on him, but this greatly limits your strategic options as an Alien team. If Lerks were cheaper in RP (~15 RP or so) then they would be a viable class for shooting at marines with Spikes at one Hive. Right now, it's not that Lerks are weak, just that they are far too expensive for a one-Hive team to afford.
2a) I don't have any problem with the Umbra protection thing. Dark Swarm in Starcraft doesn't protect people behind the swarm... Umbra would be horribly imbalanced if it protected guys behind it.
3) A well-coordinated Marine rush is ludicrously good. Although it may be discounted as "clanners shouldn't hit each other anyways", I think that putting 100% friendly fire into tournament-mode matches would, to some extent, weaken the Marine rush. Marines would have to be a lot more careful shotgunning skulks when they could hit each other. Also, it may (or may not) be worthwhile to make Turrets cause FF damage to marines - the proximal tfac would be much less powerful then.
4) Right now there is an imbalance with Marine turrets : 3-4 turrets are a pathetically weak defense, but >10 turrets in a public game are invulnerable. The weakness of small numbers of turrets makes defending resource nodes difficult for Marines, because they cannot afford to put up large numbers of turrets at every node. The reason small numbers of turrets are so weak is because you can eat one turret, then eat the Tfac because the other turrets can't reach you. Large numbers of turrets cover every side of the tfac, and don't have this weakness. I think that Marine turrets should be much weaker and slightly cheaper, but shoot straight THROUGH tfac, just like Offense Chambers can shoot through the resource node. If turrets were weaker but shot through tfacs, the end effect would be that small numbers of turrets are more powerful (No more "bite one turret then kill the tfac") while large number of turrets are weaker. It would allow the Marines to better protect their resource node, while weakening the effect of massed turrets in a main base.
Why stop there? I personally think it should go back to not requiring the TFac to power the sentries. Even pub players are figuring out that Umbra devastates SGs, so why have this big Achilles heel?
I think everyone is pushing the balance issue too far... it is going to take time for ns to get balanced. I don't actually expect to see NS balanced for another 4-6 months, not because of the skill of the devs. Just because balancing is a **obscenity** to do, fix one cheese strat and 2 more pop up.
Also if you aren't playing totaly to win you don't belong in this thread. This thread deals ONLY with clan match situations, calling it a scrim then playing like a pub is not a clan match situation.
I totally agree with BoddoZerg, the delay that early lerk causes to the 2nd hive makes it useless in competative play. I can figure out the time later it delays the fades but AS FADES ARE NOW delaying 2nd hive is pointless.
the skulk attacks things off the screen so the omg amazing 0 range tracking skill everyone talks about is kind of a moot point when you are attacking with a huge radius.
Coil can confirm this, iirc bug2.dem the prototype lab dies when i'm attacking the armory.
Summary plz. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the distant future man colonizes Mars while virtual reality has become a substitutue for vacation. One company "Recall" can implant memories of any event into one's mind for a price. The memories and experiences implanted seem as real as if they actually occurred. One man as played by Arnold Schwarzenegger decides to go to Recall and have a memory implanted of a vacation on Mars (or what he thinks is a memory implant). In reality he is on the Martian landscape not knowing who he is but having an adventure so unbelievable that he belives it has to be a virtual dream. As the movie unfolds one discovers that the adventure on Mars is indeed real, but it is the personality of the man which has been altered. To get closer to the leader of the Mars Resistance movement, those in charge of Mars send their best agent to find and assasinate the leader. The man sent is of course Arnold Schwarzenegger who discovers that in reality before being programmed with his new personality that he was quite a mean and vindictive soul. But sometimes people can change and as things are under way to convert Arnold back to his former self, he rebels. Stabbing an attendent with his arm restraint and busting out of his chair he climbs to freedom.
Air generators are turned off on Mars in an attempt to kill off Mars resistance forces. Alien artifacts and a legend of a machine deep in the core that can turn ice to oxygen prompt a trek deep within the planet. As the machine is turned on Arnold's eyes buldge out in one of the more memorable special effects scenes. Like a cartoon character out of control or Jim Carrey during transformation in the Mask, Arnold's face contorts in every which way because of lack of air.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anything that balances gameplay at the highest skill levels will unbalance gameplay at average skill levels, and vice versa. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna quote an answer to this from the general discussion thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> QUOTE While clans are important to the gaming community, they are not more important than the non-clan members of the gaming community. It probably would not be wise of any dev team to primarily cater to clans.
So it only makes sense to try and make the game so that it is as balanced as can be when played on pub servers. As such, experience on pub servers does count.
QUOTE It would be the mod equivalent of suicide to play-balance for clan gaming.
Because, those clans would only exist, after recruiting from the pub players. If you balance towards clan-play, the game seems to suck to the pub players, and the clans wither and die as a result.
This isn't so much false, as taking my suggestions overboard. But lets even go so far as to do that. Have you ever considered that the game could be different in tournament mode versus non tournament mode(ie. pub mode)? It already is different in some ways(ff, etc) This way it could be balanced for both. But I don't feel any changes this drastic need to be made. I think most if not all of these issues could be resolved while keeping the game good for both competitive play and casual play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I posted asome reply to boddo at shambler.net(since thats where he's from <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) but I'll post it here incase anyone is wondering about the points he brings up:
I can't reply on nat selection boards cause I'm not home and don't know pw off head. But anyway, you should know that facts shouldn't see any use in matches right now unless they are being used to seige the enemy hive, and I think thats fine as it is really. Turning this game into a bunch of turrets would be very not fun. Also do you realize that if turrets can shoot thru the fact then aliens have no way to attack a turret farm until 2nd hive umbra/fades?
This umbra change wouldn't really unbalance the game. It wouldn't change how people are doing things now at all really. I think you could do it if you changed the type of the entity so that scanlines would hit it, then with some creative coding(similar to shooting thru walls in cs) you could make the umbra stop some of the scanlines(bullets) right there. This could become a problem with how the shotgun works tho, I'd have to see the code to know exactly whats going on and to refresh my memory on how shotties work.
I don't claim to be any programming expert tho, and I'm afraid I don't remember an entity like that existing in the hl code........So I'm not sure about this.
yes please do. before i get sick from the skulk model and throw up. rofl <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) skulk bite model. Why is this a problem? all of the 'good' players can live with it, and I don't find it bothersome either. I'm not a wonderful skulk, but I do have my moments, and the model or lack of it isn't a huge problem.
2) Lerks are somewhat pointless pre-2nd hive, but once they get there, they can take down almost anything. early game uselessness is balanced by lategame usefulness.
The skulk view model: Starts out as a few teeth on the upper and lower parts of your screen, once you "fire", the jaws swiftly move their way together and bring the teeth together in the middle of your screen, then they open just as fast as they close, all happens in less then a second, your view is hardly obstructed. Hold "fire" and things get a bit worse, but not by much, if you have a problem with "spamming" your bites, maybe you should time them like I do.
All I'm hearing is complaints about "good" marines being able to kill skulks, which is really ignorant as "good" skulks can tear a marine squad apart before they even know it.
I'm sick of hearing about balance issues, there are a few things that need to be sorted, but over all the standard gameplay is as amazing as we expected.
After EGC's match with EC the other night, I have a brand new addiction to NS.
It seems the big issue here is "marine rushes", and no matter how much you think you're "right" about how marine rushes are unstoppable, they *can* be stopped. What happend to skulk rushes? Where will the marines be when they have 6 or 7 skulks in their base? Taking down that hive wont make much difference when you've lost your infantry portal(s), 6 or 7 skulks chewing on your CC at once and choking on resources to build another in time.
sloppy skulking and amazing skulking isn't much difference, it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's more to it than that. That video depicts a skulk who is aiming to the side, BUT he's still almost touching the marine, when marines are bouncing around it still takes at least some skill to dodge well while closing the distance for a bite (strafing randomly and jumping a bit while compensating for the predicted direction the marine is moving). Groups of doncing skulks can sometimes take out marines with good aim. When you said "it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack" do you mean approaching as in ambushing/attacking from behind, how well you dodge while in view, or both?
<!--QuoteBegin--Ekaj+Nov 26 2002, 07:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ekaj @ Nov 26 2002, 07:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When you said "it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack" do you mean approaching as in ambushing/attacking from behind, how well you dodge while in view, or both?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good skulking is all about using the map to it's fullest, knowing where to go to get behind someone when they are spraying at you, usking the vents and corners of the map to flank groups of marines, attacking the marine that is farthest away from the group to get him shot by his team (not an issue in 33% FF tho). Once the skulk gets to the marine the marine SHOULD die, your job as marine is to kill the skulk before it gets to you. Or that's at least what i've seen.
The fact is with the skulks your using the bite of a creatures that would be able to move its head seperately from its body which is not implemented in NS and rightly so as it would be to hard to use.
The skulks bite radius really can be attribted to the creature moving its head slightly in the direction of the enemy.
Skulking would be far too hard if its radius was made a lot smaller.
I'd think some people have made some good points about the difference between clan play and high level clan play. Clans are likely to use the most aggressive, clever, devious and powerful tactics which will only work when you've got a clan full of skilled players working together effectively.
Marines rushes are very hard to stop, once they're in the hive the spawning skulks don't have a chance against good marines, and the marines would expect an attack from behind by the aliens that weren't killed in the marine assault.
But you almost never see this on pubs, and its not that common on the few passworded servers i've played on.
The fact is the extreme differences in the two sides, and the fact that ns is more complex that a lot of games means that strategy differences are always going to be major between public play and clan play.
Making a game balanced for two quite different sets of people and game situations is nigh-on impossible.
I don't see why also because a clan is better than another makes someones opinion more viable than the other. One person may simply have better general skills, or learned to play a different way.
Balance is always going to be an issue perceived from your own playing expirience, and people have different expiriences of the same game.
after that egc. TAU scrim i'd have to say the balance issues are fine <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Do you think that because you've "...played over 25 scrims in NS. That is over 50 rounds of clan play..." you have seen <i>every</i> conceivable scenario, <i>every</i> possible strategy, and <i>every</i> tactic and counter-tactic?
Why do you act as though you have?
How do explain that I have played far less clan matches then you yet I have seen counter-tactics to <i>every single one of your 'imbalance problems'</i>?
How do you explain that the classes and traits that you state in your article as completely useless are being utlized effectively by other players?
I'll tell you why... <b>because you don't know everything!</b> These are your opinions and obviously they are not shared by everyone in the community.
By the way you conduct yourself you think other people don't see it your way because they haven't played as many clan matches as you. Another less elitist way of thinking about it is the game is still only a few <b>months</b> new and every tactic, every strategy, every class/trait/weapon/upgrade are still being explored for their gameplay potential.
You wield your opinion as though it's fact and then you attack anyone who presents an alternate view. If this is what discussion means to you I think this thread should be closed.
You said your piece, most of us don't agree. I wish you were open minded enough to have a discussion but no this has been reduced to a battle of opinions.
Fantasmo, this is ridiculous. Syn hasn't lost or drawn any scrims since before thanksgiving, and we've played at least 50 scrims since then. I mean, no matter what you wanna say that shows something. Maybe this is coming off as elitist, but I'm pointing out what I've seen over many many scrims, and for you to come here and say im wrong while offering 0 support for anything you say makes me think you're full of it.
We can all sit here and play theorycraft on this board all day, that + talking about a bunch of possibly existing hacks(most of which i doubt) is like all they do in the general forum. But at the end of the day what matters is what you can show in terms of victories against other clans. I don't claim to know everything, but I've played lots of scrims and we're not losing using these tactics. I'm gonna post a bunch of demos tonight so you can watch it happen.
How about syn plays your clan(I assume you have one) and you use your supposed counters. If they work I'll back down/praise you on this forum/whatever you want.
"By the way you conduct yourself you think other people don't see it your way because they haven't played as many clan matches as you. Another less elitist way of thinking about it is the game is still only a few months new and every tactic, every strategy, every class/trait/weapon/upgrade are still being explored for their gameplay potential. "
we've played over 100 scrims. Thats a ton of scrims no matter how you cut it, and it leaves plenty of time to explore alternate strategies. We have; and we still believe a marine rush is by far the best.
You are right though. I didn't want to have a discussion of opinions: "If you disagree with it that's fine too, but before you say anything please post your match experience and clan as well. "
I wanted a discussion where you can prove what you're saying is true. Either with demos or by scrimming us. I saw none of this.
Excuse me, fantasmo, but I too have played in a lot of scrims. We have tried absolutly everything we could try, and found that the marine rush is the best way to go. The aliens just can't handle 5 marines coming toward them. As alien, we try to defend the rush by camping and scouting the area. When someone sees a marine, they call other aliens to help attack them.
Once the aliens have 2 hives, it's game over. No matter how you spell it. Fade/lerk is just unstoppable. By the time that aliens have 2nd hive, the marines just don't have the resources to get enough troops outfitted with HA/HMG/Welder, as they are spending them scanner sweeping the hive, dropping ammo, and dropping health for the primary rush. Also, if marines try to take a RT without turrets around it, it's absolutly pointless.
Alright I just came back from a 72 hour NS session that I partially held to <i>prove you wrong</i>. We devised alternative strategies, recorded demos and prepared for a scrim against you guys.
Just so you know our "clan" is more of a club. Unfortunately we are all too busy with school and our careers to have a dedicated and active league clan so we have about 30-40 guys who get together once in a while for LANfests. We occationally assemble a team to do clan-scrimages or compete in tournments sometimes but we aren't formally a single clan. We are all Rainbox Six vets, that is where most of us met, and we heavily favor teamplay games especially if they allow for deep strategy.
There were 20-30 people at the weekend NSfest. 20 of us were there for the entire weekend to get in "official" practice/strategizing time, it was also partially a 'try-out' to see which members were the best, who worked well together, and put together the team to scrim you guys. We got in 45 official (10vs10, Tournament Mode, Clan Match Rules) scrims. Now <i>I</i> can say I've played close to 50 scrims.
What I wanted to disprove most in your observations was that the marine rush was unstopable and that Fade/Lerk combo will always win the game.
What we soon discovered was that both your observations about the Marine Rush and Fade/Lerk Combos were essentially correct. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't argue for the sake of arguing, if my position is proved to be wrong I admit it. I obviously spoke too soon and for that I apologize. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I didn't like your seemingly elitist posturing with the "...well i played x number of games so there..." attitude. I reacted more to your responses then to your original post which I shouldn't have done.
You suspected the problems were due to fundamental gameplay balances but let me throw this at you, it may seem like a balance problem but maybe it's more of a mapping problem.
Pipes and vents hanging down and running the length of a hallway, broken panels or destroyed structures littering hallways and rooms, rafters and support beams for big rooms. To a mapper with limited resources these things may be reserved for eye candy purposes but in a game like NS I believe these are actually important gameplay factors to consider!
The general construction of the maps are too plain and don't allow for enough cover or obstacles for the aliens to close in on the enemy without exposing themselves. This is a problem for hallways (esspecially long ones) and big rooms. I'm not sure if this is a limitation on the HL engine or perhaps linear gameplay thinking on the mapper's part.
I do have a few more observation to add but I would like to hear what you think about the Maps in NS and what impact they have on balance (if at all). I gotta get back to work so I'll finish my observations later.
hmmm, well first off official clan matches are 6v6(according to CAL/all other leagues neway), not 10v10, but I imagine most of what I said would only become more valid as you added players. Though I wouldn't bet my life on that or anything.
Meh, I think most of the maps are ok right now, but some marine tactics exist that just shouldn't. I urge you to watch the 1st round of the TE vs AV demo I just posted at www.shambler.net
It's been awhile and the game has evolved somewhat since I wrote that, I mean, marine rushes can be stopped right now, but not for a long period of time. Basically a very well coordinated alien force that can parasite/scout then setup a mobile ambush(like you can watch TE do in that demo) can delay a marine rush(This isn't really balanced though, its much harder to repel a rush then to actually rush. Maybe two to three clans at most are able to actually do this right now) The problem comes when the marines keep a constant rush on the aliens. The problem this causes is that the skulks are caught in this constant defensive mode and lose map control to the marines. Now one of the marines can go rt up all over and the skulks are unable to attack these undefended rt's because they're stuck defending the rush. Now the marines can put some tech into their rush to complement the health/ammo dropping and scan sweeps. Basically the marines get access to jps before the aliens are able to get a second hive up. If it doesn't end now, by the time the aliens 2nd hive just started pumping hmg ha marines would reign down death on the alien hive.
But let me elaborate on that tactics thing I said. I know flay hates hearing actual balance changes, and just wants demos. But for the sake of explaining:
Basically scan sweep isn't even kind of fair. It's price needs to be raised to at least 5. Without scan sweep this rush problem could go away for at least the top 6 clans. However, if you take this strategy from the marines, they really have no good alternatives that are even remotely balanced. So taking away the marines rush would be like handing them a death certificate in any even match. This is a very scary problem to attempt to fix, since changing any of this stuff could severely unbalance the game. Whatever you even attempted you'd have to beta test hardcore with the top clans to see if it actually worked. I don't think map changes are really a big solution here though. Cause I mean, as long as you have scanner sweep, trying to make more hiding spots in the map won't even matter that much.
I'm glad you actually bothered to test what i was saying tho, didn't seem like all that many people did. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Wow just read that entire thread. 90 minutes later.. Eats ur basically right, altho u flame people too easily <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think the game should be changed so it should be played how flayra wants it to be played. If i'm right (I might not be- feel free to correct me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) then:
Marines should be expanding outwards slowly, securing resource towers and a hive, and aliens should trying to delay the marines until they can get a 2nd hive up, then the battle begins. which means:
1. having 2 hives as alien shouldn't mean a victory for alien. having 3 hives should.
2. Rushing should not be possible for marine- or if it is, it should be a 'ONE OFF' so it only works if the aliens are completely unprepared.
3. Defending resource towers (without marines) should be part of the game, and should be more effective.
At the moment, the game is not playing like this in clan matches. I'll suggest some general solutions: 1) Make the fade less powerful / less effective (could improve marines to achieve this)
2) Stop the marine rush. Make it more expensive / less possible or something
3) Make defending resource towers easier as marine / harder to attack as alien.
Feel free to come up with specific solutions for these.
<!--QuoteBegin--Markeo900+Nov 27 2002, 02:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Markeo900 @ Nov 27 2002, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is with the skulks your using the bite of a creatures that would be able to move its head seperately from its body which is not implemented in NS and rightly so as it would be to hard to use.
The skulks bite radius really can be attribted to the creature moving its head slightly in the direction of the enemy.
Skulking would be far too hard if its radius was made a lot smaller.
I'd think some people have made some good points about the difference between clan play and high level clan play. Clans are likely to use the most aggressive, clever, devious and powerful tactics which will only work when you've got a clan full of skilled players working together effectively.
Marines rushes are very hard to stop, once they're in the hive the spawning skulks don't have a chance against good marines, and the marines would expect an attack from behind by the aliens that weren't killed in the marine assault.
But you almost never see this on pubs, and its not that common on the few passworded servers i've played on.
The fact is the extreme differences in the two sides, and the fact that ns is more complex that a lot of games means that strategy differences are always going to be major between public play and clan play.
Making a game balanced for two quite different sets of people and game situations is nigh-on impossible.
I don't see why also because a clan is better than another makes someones opinion more viable than the other. One person may simply have better general skills, or learned to play a different way.
Balance is always going to be an issue perceived from your own playing expirience, and people have different expiriences of the same game.
Happy hunting, Mark<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I do this by myself in pubs and once the other marines have figured out that they dont need to secure hives and seen that i solo killed just about every skulk they follow me into their hive and we win
yup, scan cost is coming up to 3, along with IP's up to 22, after the *normal* set up you would do, you got 7 fricking RP's left, we are talking like 3 scans and no health/ammo drops
This is going to cripple the Marine rush, making it require such a skill level it'll be Godlike to still pull them off, it'll require better Marine's since you won't be able to spam the scan, and if they happen get ambushed by waiting Skulks that don't get scanned, it won't be much better, since to drop health would prevent further scans
It's gunna be ugly in 1.04 with the price increase
Those 2 pages were filled with Eats countering ppl who obviously haven't played enough for the sake of winning.
I haven't played a single CW, but I've seen/tested everything in pubs with my clanmates, and I think we are ready to take on alot of fun playing clans out there.. The naked truth is that Marine rush > Everything. The invisible Ninja skulks can't exist because their hidingspots are limited to a few that any marine with enough experience will find easily. A good marine will not get up close where the skulk wants him. I have yet to see great lerk players utilizing the close to non-existant mobility that Eats was talking about, if there are any then they won't be utilizing lvl.1 lerks anyway, since lerks are made avaliable shortly before the 2nd hive is built. No sensory upgrades are usefull at all, regen and silence are in a greyzone, and <Forgot its name, but it sucks you back to the hive> is only usefull if you're by some reason unable to return back to your offensive DC room to heal up as an Onos...
I'm fairly shure that I missed alot of stuff that ppl who are only playing for the fun of it were complaining about, but please, do understand that if you're only playing for fun you're not really entitled to an opinion about how the game is best played by the best players, nomatter how unfun that might be :x
EDIT: More stuff: The skulk and marine view obstructurers (or what that kind of models that prevent the player of seeing what (s)he wants to see. Scores are usefull for clans for evaluation purposes, you can tell who are your best player, and who are.. less good. This is usefull when you want to decide stuff like strategies, and tactics, and who is replaceable and who's not. Not everyone's cup of tea, that's for shure, but there's nothing wrong in getting to know how well you did.
that's what I had to say anyway :E <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> </span>
Comments
And so, we have a fundamental game balance problem : <b>Anything that balances gameplay at the highest skill levels will unbalance gameplay at average skill levels, and vice versa.</b>
Playing public games, the Aliens almost always win, and if the Marines win it is because they captured a Hive very fast, then moved to capture a 2nd hive, then killed off the remaining skulks and lerks. In contrast, scrim games between high-ranked clans result in Marines winning by rushing the Aliens' first Hive before they can get a second one. This strategy is impossible on public servers, where one good Skulk player can bite three newbie Marines to death with ease.
If the marine rush was somehow 'nerfed' so that high-level play was balanced, then average-level play would be horrifyingly imbalanced in favor of the Aliens.
That said, several of Shambler's (Eats) points are completely correct.
1) Skulk bite model is disorienting. The NS team has continued to say that they will not implement AvP-style wallcrawl for the Skulk because it disorients players. Yet, the skulk bite effect is every bit as disorienting as AvP wallcrawling, and it continues to be in the game; you can't easily turn it off. Why oh why?!??!?!
2) One hive aliens have no choice other than Skulk. Yes, a Lerk can be powerful in the hands of a good player. However, the fact that, by taking 33 RP from the pool, it *greatly* delays your taking a second Hive, makes one-Hive lerks a rather stupid choice in pub and scrim games. The problem with this is that Skulks alone just aren't good for game balance. The only way to kill a good Marine with Skulk is to sneak up on him, but this greatly limits your strategic options as an Alien team. If Lerks were cheaper in RP (~15 RP or so) then they would be a viable class for shooting at marines with Spikes at one Hive. Right now, it's not that Lerks are weak, just that they are far too expensive for a one-Hive team to afford.
2a) I don't have any problem with the Umbra protection thing. Dark Swarm in Starcraft doesn't protect people behind the swarm... Umbra would be horribly imbalanced if it protected guys behind it.
3) A well-coordinated Marine rush is ludicrously good. Although it may be discounted as "clanners shouldn't hit each other anyways", I think that putting 100% friendly fire into tournament-mode matches would, to some extent, weaken the Marine rush. Marines would have to be a lot more careful shotgunning skulks when they could hit each other. Also, it may (or may not) be worthwhile to make Turrets cause FF damage to marines - the proximal tfac would be much less powerful then.
4) Right now there is an imbalance with Marine turrets : 3-4 turrets are a pathetically weak defense, but >10 turrets in a public game are invulnerable. The weakness of small numbers of turrets makes defending resource nodes difficult for Marines, because they cannot afford to put up large numbers of turrets at every node. The reason small numbers of turrets are so weak is because you can eat one turret, then eat the Tfac because the other turrets can't reach you. Large numbers of turrets cover every side of the tfac, and don't have this weakness. I think that Marine turrets should be much weaker and slightly cheaper, but shoot straight THROUGH tfac, just like Offense Chambers can shoot through the resource node. If turrets were weaker but shot through tfacs, the end effect would be that small numbers of turrets are more powerful (No more "bite one turret then kill the tfac") while large number of turrets are weaker. It would allow the Marines to better protect their resource node, while weakening the effect of massed turrets in a main base.
Also if you aren't playing totaly to win you don't belong in this thread. This thread deals ONLY with clan match situations, calling it a scrim then playing like a pub is not a clan match situation.
I totally agree with BoddoZerg, the delay that early lerk causes to the 2nd hive makes it useless in competative play. I can figure out the time later it delays the fades but AS FADES ARE NOW delaying 2nd hive is pointless.
the skulk attacks things off the screen so the omg amazing 0 range tracking skill everyone talks about is kind of a moot point when you are attacking with a huge radius.
Coil can confirm this, iirc bug2.dem the prototype lab dies when i'm attacking the armory.
Summary plz. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Summary plz. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the distant future man colonizes Mars while virtual reality has become a substitutue for vacation. One company "Recall" can implant memories of any event into one's mind for a price. The memories and experiences implanted seem as real as if they actually occurred. One man as played by Arnold Schwarzenegger decides to go to Recall and have a memory implanted of a vacation on Mars (or what he thinks is a memory implant). In reality he is on the Martian landscape not knowing who he is but having an adventure so unbelievable that he belives it has to be a virtual dream.
As the movie unfolds one discovers that the adventure on Mars is indeed real, but it is the personality of the man which has been altered. To get closer to the leader of the Mars Resistance movement, those in charge of Mars send their best agent to find and assasinate the leader. The man sent is of course Arnold Schwarzenegger who discovers that in reality before being programmed with his new personality that he was quite a mean and vindictive soul. But sometimes people can change and as things are under way to convert Arnold back to his former self, he rebels. Stabbing an attendent with his arm restraint and busting out of his chair he climbs to freedom.
Air generators are turned off on Mars in an attempt to kill off Mars resistance forces. Alien artifacts and a legend of a machine deep in the core that can turn ice to oxygen prompt a trek deep within the planet. As the machine is turned on Arnold's eyes buldge out in one of the more memorable special effects scenes. Like a cartoon character out of control or Jim Carrey during transformation in the Mask, Arnold's face contorts in every which way because of lack of air.
There ya go dewd.
Ok Thanks d00d.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anything that balances gameplay at the highest skill levels will unbalance gameplay at average skill levels, and vice versa.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm gonna quote an answer to this from the general discussion thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE
While clans are important to the gaming community, they are not more important than the non-clan members of the gaming community. It probably would not be wise of any dev team to primarily cater to clans.
So it only makes sense to try and make the game so that it is as balanced as can be when played on pub servers. As such, experience on pub servers does count.
QUOTE
It would be the mod equivalent of suicide to play-balance for clan gaming.
Because, those clans would only exist, after recruiting from the pub players. If you balance towards clan-play, the game seems to suck to the pub players, and the clans wither and die as a result.
This isn't so much false, as taking my suggestions overboard. But lets even go so far as to do that. Have you ever considered that the game could be different in tournament mode versus non tournament mode(ie. pub mode)? It already is different in some ways(ff, etc) This way it could be balanced for both. But I don't feel any changes this drastic need to be made. I think most if not all of these issues could be resolved while keeping the game good for both competitive play and casual play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't reply on nat selection boards cause I'm not home and don't know pw off head. But anyway, you should know that facts shouldn't see any use in matches right now unless they are being used to seige the enemy hive, and I think thats fine as it is really. Turning this game into a bunch of turrets would be very not fun. Also do you realize that if turrets can shoot thru the fact then aliens have no way to attack a turret farm until 2nd hive umbra/fades?
This umbra change wouldn't really unbalance the game. It wouldn't change how people are doing things now at all really. I think you could do it if you changed the type of the entity so that scanlines would hit it, then with some creative coding(similar to shooting thru walls in cs) you could make the umbra stop some of the scanlines(bullets) right there. This could become a problem with how the shotgun works tho, I'd have to see the code to know exactly whats going on and to refresh my memory on how shotties work.
I don't claim to be any programming expert tho, and I'm afraid I don't remember an entity like that existing in the hl code........So I'm not sure about this.
and syn! stop posting total recall summaries!
2) Lerks are somewhat pointless pre-2nd hive, but once they get there, they can take down almost anything. early game uselessness is balanced by lategame usefulness.
All I'm hearing is complaints about "good" marines being able to kill skulks, which is really ignorant as "good" skulks can tear a marine squad apart before they even know it.
I'm sick of hearing about balance issues, there are a few things that need to be sorted, but over all the standard gameplay is as amazing as we expected.
After EGC's match with EC the other night, I have a brand new addiction to NS.
It seems the big issue here is "marine rushes", and no matter how much you think you're "right" about how marine rushes are unstoppable, they *can* be stopped. What happend to skulk rushes? Where will the marines be when they have 6 or 7 skulks in their base? Taking down that hive wont make much difference when you've lost your infantry portal(s), 6 or 7 skulks chewing on your CC at once and choking on resources to build another in time.
<a href='http://web.njit.edu/~jtm4/omgbitehack.avi' target='_blank'>http://web.njit.edu/~jtm4/omgbitehack.avi</a>
sloppy skulking and amazing skulking isn't much difference, it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack.
<a href='http://web.njit.edu/~jtm4/omgbitehack.avi' target='_blank'>http://web.njit.edu/~jtm4/omgbitehack.avi</a>
sloppy skulking and amazing skulking isn't much difference, it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's more to it than that. That video depicts a skulk who is aiming to the side, BUT he's still almost touching the marine, when marines are bouncing around it still takes at least some skill to dodge well while closing the distance for a bite (strafing randomly and jumping a bit while compensating for the predicted direction the marine is moving). Groups of doncing skulks can sometimes take out marines with good aim. When you said "it's more on the way you approach the enemy than attack" do you mean approaching as in ambushing/attacking from behind, how well you dodge while in view, or both?
Good skulking is all about using the map to it's fullest, knowing where to go to get behind someone when they are spraying at you, usking the vents and corners of the map to flank groups of marines, attacking the marine that is farthest away from the group to get him shot by his team (not an issue in 33% FF tho). Once the skulk gets to the marine the marine SHOULD die, your job as marine is to kill the skulk before it gets to you. Or that's at least what i've seen.
The skulks bite radius really can be attribted to the creature moving its head slightly in the direction of the enemy.
Skulking would be far too hard if its radius was made a lot smaller.
I'd think some people have made some good points about the difference between clan play and high level clan play. Clans are likely to use the most aggressive, clever, devious and powerful tactics which will only work when you've got a clan full of skilled players working together effectively.
Marines rushes are very hard to stop, once they're in the hive the spawning skulks don't have a chance against good marines, and the marines would expect an attack from behind by the aliens that weren't killed in the marine assault.
But you almost never see this on pubs, and its not that common on the few passworded servers i've played on.
The fact is the extreme differences in the two sides, and the fact that ns is more complex that a lot of games means that strategy differences are always going to be major between public play and clan play.
Making a game balanced for two quite different sets of people and game situations is nigh-on impossible.
I don't see why also because a clan is better than another makes someones opinion more viable than the other. One person may simply have better general skills, or learned to play a different way.
Balance is always going to be an issue perceived from your own playing expirience, and people have different expiriences of the same game.
Happy hunting, Mark
after that egc. TAU scrim i'd have to say the balance issues are fine <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i wuv dp,user!
Why do you act as though you have?
How do explain that I have played far less clan matches then you yet I have seen counter-tactics to <i>every single one of your 'imbalance problems'</i>?
How do you explain that the classes and traits that you state in your article as completely useless are being utlized effectively by other players?
I'll tell you why... <b>because you don't know everything!</b> These are your opinions and obviously they are not shared by everyone in the community.
By the way you conduct yourself you think other people don't see it your way because they haven't played as many clan matches as you. Another less elitist way of thinking about it is the game is still only a few <b>months</b> new and every tactic, every strategy, every class/trait/weapon/upgrade are still being explored for their gameplay potential.
You wield your opinion as though it's fact and then you attack anyone who presents an alternate view. If this is what discussion means to you I think this thread should be closed.
You said your piece, most of us don't agree. I wish you were open minded enough to have a discussion but no this has been reduced to a battle of opinions.
Have a good day buddy.
Fantasmo, this is ridiculous. Syn hasn't lost or drawn any scrims since before thanksgiving, and we've played at least 50 scrims since then. I mean, no matter what you wanna say that shows something. Maybe this is coming off as elitist, but I'm pointing out what I've seen over many many scrims, and for you to come here and say im wrong while offering 0 support for anything you say makes me think you're full of it.
We can all sit here and play theorycraft on this board all day, that + talking about a bunch of possibly existing hacks(most of which i doubt) is like all they do in the general forum. But at the end of the day what matters is what you can show in terms of victories against other clans. I don't claim to know everything, but I've played lots of scrims and we're not losing using these tactics. I'm gonna post a bunch of demos tonight so you can watch it happen.
How about syn plays your clan(I assume you have one) and you use your supposed counters. If they work I'll back down/praise you on this forum/whatever you want.
"By the way you conduct yourself you think other people don't see it your way because they haven't played as many clan matches as you. Another less elitist way of thinking about it is the game is still only a few months new and every tactic, every strategy, every class/trait/weapon/upgrade are still being explored for their gameplay potential. "
we've played over 100 scrims. Thats a ton of scrims no matter how you cut it, and it leaves plenty of time to explore alternate strategies. We have; and we still believe a marine rush is by far the best.
You are right though. I didn't want to have a discussion of opinions:
"If you disagree with it that's fine too, but before you say anything please post your match experience and clan as well.
"
I wanted a discussion where you can prove what you're saying is true. Either with demos or by scrimming us. I saw none of this.
Once the aliens have 2 hives, it's game over. No matter how you spell it. Fade/lerk is just unstoppable. By the time that aliens have 2nd hive, the marines just don't have the resources to get enough troops outfitted with HA/HMG/Welder, as they are spending them scanner sweeping the hive, dropping ammo, and dropping health for the primary rush. Also, if marines try to take a RT without turrets around it, it's absolutly pointless.
Just so you know our "clan" is more of a club. Unfortunately we are all too busy with school and our careers to have a dedicated and active league clan so we have about 30-40 guys who get together once in a while for LANfests. We occationally assemble a team to do clan-scrimages or compete in tournments sometimes but we aren't formally a single clan. We are all Rainbox Six vets, that is where most of us met, and we heavily favor teamplay games especially if they allow for deep strategy.
There were 20-30 people at the weekend NSfest. 20 of us were there for the entire weekend to get in "official" practice/strategizing time, it was also partially a 'try-out' to see which members were the best, who worked well together, and put together the team to scrim you guys. We got in 45 official (10vs10, Tournament Mode, Clan Match Rules) scrims. Now <i>I</i> can say I've played close to 50 scrims.
What I wanted to disprove most in your observations was that the marine rush was unstopable and that Fade/Lerk combo will always win the game.
What we soon discovered was that both your observations about the Marine Rush and Fade/Lerk Combos were essentially correct. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't argue for the sake of arguing, if my position is proved to be wrong I admit it. I obviously spoke too soon and for that I apologize. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I didn't like your seemingly elitist posturing with the "...well i played x number of games so there..." attitude. I reacted more to your responses then to your original post which I shouldn't have done.
You suspected the problems were due to fundamental gameplay balances but let me throw this at you, it may seem like a balance problem but maybe it's more of a mapping problem.
Pipes and vents hanging down and running the length of a hallway, broken panels or destroyed structures littering hallways and rooms, rafters and support beams for big rooms. To a mapper with limited resources these things may be reserved for eye candy purposes but in a game like NS I believe these are actually important gameplay factors to consider!
The general construction of the maps are too plain and don't allow for enough cover or obstacles for the aliens to close in on the enemy without exposing themselves. This is a problem for hallways (esspecially long ones) and big rooms. I'm not sure if this is a limitation on the HL engine or perhaps linear gameplay thinking on the mapper's part.
I do have a few more observation to add but I would like to hear what you think about the Maps in NS and what impact they have on balance (if at all). I gotta get back to work so I'll finish my observations later.
Meh, I think most of the maps are ok right now, but some marine tactics exist that just shouldn't. I urge you to watch the 1st round of the TE vs AV demo I just posted at www.shambler.net
It's been awhile and the game has evolved somewhat since I wrote that, I mean, marine rushes can be stopped right now, but not for a long period of time. Basically a very well coordinated alien force that can parasite/scout then setup a mobile ambush(like you can watch TE do in that demo) can delay a marine rush(This isn't really balanced though, its much harder to repel a rush then to actually rush. Maybe two to three clans at most are able to actually do this right now) The problem comes when the marines keep a constant rush on the aliens. The problem this causes is that the skulks are caught in this constant defensive mode and lose map control to the marines. Now one of the marines can go rt up all over and the skulks are unable to attack these undefended rt's because they're stuck defending the rush. Now the marines can put some tech into their rush to complement the health/ammo dropping and scan sweeps. Basically the marines get access to jps before the aliens are able to get a second hive up. If it doesn't end now, by the time the aliens 2nd hive just started pumping hmg ha marines would reign down death on the alien hive.
But let me elaborate on that tactics thing I said. I know flay hates hearing actual balance changes, and just wants demos. But for the sake of explaining:
Basically scan sweep isn't even kind of fair. It's price needs to be raised to at least 5. Without scan sweep this rush problem could go away for at least the top 6 clans. However, if you take this strategy from the marines, they really have no good alternatives that are even remotely balanced. So taking away the marines rush would be like handing them a death certificate in any even match. This is a very scary problem to attempt to fix, since changing any of this stuff could severely unbalance the game. Whatever you even attempted you'd have to beta test hardcore with the top clans to see if it actually worked. I don't think map changes are really a big solution here though. Cause I mean, as long as you have scanner sweep, trying to make more hiding spots in the map won't even matter that much.
I'm glad you actually bothered to test what i was saying tho, didn't seem like all that many people did. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
90 minutes later..
Eats ur basically right, altho u flame people too easily <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think the game should be changed so it should be played how flayra wants it to be played.
If i'm right (I might not be- feel free to correct me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) then:
Marines should be expanding outwards slowly, securing resource towers and a hive, and aliens should trying to delay the marines until they can get a 2nd hive up, then the battle begins. which means:
1. having 2 hives as alien shouldn't mean a victory for alien. having 3 hives should.
2. Rushing should not be possible for marine- or if it is, it should be a 'ONE OFF' so it only works if the aliens are completely unprepared.
3. Defending resource towers (without marines) should be part of the game, and should be more effective.
At the moment, the game is not playing like this in clan matches. I'll suggest some general solutions:
1) Make the fade less powerful / less effective (could improve marines to achieve this)
2) Stop the marine rush. Make it more expensive / less possible or something
3) Make defending resource towers easier as marine / harder to attack as alien.
Feel free to come up with specific solutions for these.
After$hock
The skulks bite radius really can be attribted to the creature moving its head slightly in the direction of the enemy.
Skulking would be far too hard if its radius was made a lot smaller.
I'd think some people have made some good points about the difference between clan play and high level clan play. Clans are likely to use the most aggressive, clever, devious and powerful tactics which will only work when you've got a clan full of skilled players working together effectively.
Marines rushes are very hard to stop, once they're in the hive the spawning skulks don't have a chance against good marines, and the marines would expect an attack from behind by the aliens that weren't killed in the marine assault.
But you almost never see this on pubs, and its not that common on the few passworded servers i've played on.
The fact is the extreme differences in the two sides, and the fact that ns is more complex that a lot of games means that strategy differences are always going to be major between public play and clan play.
Making a game balanced for two quite different sets of people and game situations is nigh-on impossible.
I don't see why also because a clan is better than another makes someones opinion more viable than the other. One person may simply have better general skills, or learned to play a different way.
Balance is always going to be an issue perceived from your own playing expirience, and people have different expiriences of the same game.
Happy hunting, Mark<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do this by myself in pubs and once the other marines have figured out that they dont need to secure hives and seen that i solo killed just about every skulk they follow me into their hive and we win
yup, scan cost is coming up to 3, along with IP's up to 22, after the *normal* set up you would do, you got 7 fricking RP's left, we are talking like 3 scans and no health/ammo drops
This is going to cripple the Marine rush, making it require such a skill level it'll be Godlike to still pull them off, it'll require better Marine's since you won't be able to spam the scan, and if they happen get ambushed by waiting Skulks that don't get scanned, it won't be much better, since to drop health would prevent further scans
It's gunna be ugly in 1.04 with the price increase
Those 2 pages were filled with Eats countering ppl who obviously haven't played enough for the sake of winning.
I haven't played a single CW, but I've seen/tested everything in pubs with my clanmates, and I think we are ready to take on alot of fun playing clans out there..
The naked truth is that Marine rush > Everything.
The invisible Ninja skulks can't exist because their hidingspots are limited to a few that any marine with enough experience will find easily. A good marine will not get up close where the skulk wants him.
I have yet to see great lerk players utilizing the close to non-existant mobility that Eats was talking about, if there are any then they won't be utilizing lvl.1 lerks anyway, since lerks are made avaliable shortly before the 2nd hive is built.
No sensory upgrades are usefull at all, regen and silence are in a greyzone, and <Forgot its name, but it sucks you back to the hive> is only usefull if you're by some reason unable to return back to your offensive DC room to heal up as an Onos...
I'm fairly shure that I missed alot of stuff that ppl who are only playing for the fun of it were complaining about, but please, do understand that if you're only playing for fun you're not really entitled to an opinion about how the game is best played by the best players, nomatter how unfun that might be :x
EDIT: More stuff: The skulk and marine view obstructurers (or what that kind of models that prevent the player of seeing what (s)he wants to see.
Scores are usefull for clans for evaluation purposes, you can tell who are your best player, and who are.. less good. This is usefull when you want to decide stuff like strategies, and tactics, and who is replaceable and who's not. Not everyone's cup of tea, that's for shure, but there's nothing wrong in getting to know how well you did.
that's what I had to say anyway :E
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