Very Important Clan Balance Stuff-read It!

Eats · November 2002

For everyone in clans who cares about where clanplay in ns is going, you really need to get behind this:

<a href='http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml' target='_blank'>http://www.shambler.net/articles/nsbalance.phtml</a>

As of this posting everything short of extra stuff(because they haven't seen it yet) is endorsed by all of sYn and Rusher(from TAU-ns) All of these people have lots of experience under clan match conditions. I encourage you to read this as it includes a discussion of the top strategies being used right now, and what needs to be fixed in this game to improve the depth of matches.

If you agree with this article I encourage you to post here and endorse it, please include your match experience and clan.

If you disagree with it that's fine too, but before you say anything please post your match experience and clan as well.

If you're a dev I would love to hear what you have to say, also feel free to email me at shambler@shambler.net

As for me I'm eats, formerly from TAU but currently in sYn, and I have played over 50 rounds under match conditions against other clans.

Fam · November 2002

[EC:Fam]. I do not have much game experience, as I cannot currently play NS, but I do keep up with what my clan is doing and also the spirit of NS. However, as a playtester and a long time NS fan, I cannot agree with what you have got going on here. The very problems you seem to be 'addressing' are those which give freedom for tactics.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry(I know I didn't mention this but either league rules should be changed to be able to turn this off, or it should just be altered to not cover the whole screen. Not only is it annoying and headache inducing, but it makes being a skulk considerably harder. But: This will not balance the 2 races at the one hive stage! Do not fix this and think the problem is solved!)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I would like to see model consistency enforced, along with r_drawviewmodel locked to 1. Skulks are not <b>meant</b> to be killers on four legs, they are meant to be scouts and last ditch defence. If you find it too hard to play as a skulk with the viewmodel on, you need more practice.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Even if the marines are able to bring down one hive after the alien team is composed of fades and lerks the aliens will still have a 95% chance of winning. I have never seen aliens lose once they got fade/lerk going.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
From what I can see, Fades are a tad too strong at the moment. You do not seem to address this point, and instead moan about Alien turrets and webs, which are defensive in nature. The aliens are meant to be the defensive team.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Basically the game has a very weak economic system right now, which could be altered to add a lot of depth to the game. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The economic system is balanced. A lot of work went into balancing it not only for public play, but also for clan play. Until a few of the current bugs get fixed, this will not be visible.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Basically the lerk should have no inertia in regards to changing direction during flight. This would make the lerk far more mobile, and much easier to use.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Don't bash the Lerk just because you have problems using it please.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-A One Hive Lerk is not viable</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Sounds like a good <b>tactic</b> to me, rather than a bug. Marines have siege turrets.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If a cap on his flight time is needed it should instead be a time or flap limit. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Why do you feel the need to put a cap on everything? Inbalances caused by bugs can be fixed by balancing, not by restrictions. Inbalances caused by skill are part of the very game itself. Inbalances caused by tactics are what makes NS so great.

I care where clanplay is going. And as such I cannot stand behind this, sorry.

SentrySteve · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fam @ Nov 24 2002, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Luckly, I have not yet seen Ekaj as a lerk. However I have seen Ebby and SmokeMasta as lerks and let me tell you, I dont care if you have an HMG/Lvl 3 upgrades, and HA - if you see ebby or smoke as a lerk drop everything you have and just try to run. You arn't going to live. Thats the bottom line. After seeing these two masters in work I have tried, many times, to become talented with a lerk. It is by far one of the most complex aliens to learn and master. That is possibly why people are complaining - they rather just walk up to something and swing at it a few times. That is not the case with the lerk.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

That actually, isn't one of the better ideas I could think of. If the marines are extremely RP deprived then yes, this would be helpful. But if they have/save up for 75 (1 TF, Upgrade to seige, and 1 seige) then this plan isn't so good. Those structres will be gone rather quickly - and the more structres you have the more damange one seige does (good ol' splash damage!) Generally, I would only set up 5 Def Chambers close to, not right up next to, the marine spawn when we are attacking. You have to make sure that they are out of the seiges range.

Insane · November 2002

[EC.Insane], EC member. As for game experience, about 4 scrims and countless passworded matches (i.e where organised play is much more common).

I totally and utterly agree with Fam here. The game was designed for clan play as well as pub, so the way it works should hold up for clan play, and does. A few more things:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Web and Tower Spam will soon become unbalanced</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The marines have siege. This balances out just fine, and for those on the alien side, it almost feels unbalanced.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In tournament mode show marine kills(why not? I can assure you clans are not going to play for who can get the most kills)
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You may feel that, but it is just going to encourage l337 clans to start playing for kills. That's why it was left out.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Alien ability where standing on an unclaimed resource nozzle heals alien health and armor, and when the alien is at full health, this slightly improves his resource flow.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This would unbalance it towards aliens. It bascially reduces the necessity to spend rp's on resource towers because the alien team have been transformed into moble resource collectors.

I don't get what you're trying to do here. It looks like you're trying to heavily change a game design that has been painstakingly worked on for two years, with months of playtests sorting out the balance.

UGLJon · November 2002

That article is very long so therefore it must be good! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

QuietMischief1 · November 2002

And as far as the Fade is concerned _and_ the Armor/Carapace Bug, it's going to be taken care of as I've heard in IRC.

As for the Lerk, and the Skulk Bite model, for the Lerk, learn to fly and to glide and to make proper usage of your attacks and their abilities, you do not need Umbra to be awesome. And Spore Cloud isn't that great, since any smart marine doesn't you know, stand around in it getting hurt? And the Skulk Bite model, the same thing I find myself yelling at Terminotaur in game when he turns his models on, "QUIT SPAMMING YOU IDIOT! ACQUIRE THE TARGET THEN BITE!" since if you just spam you can never see anything (which I'm to understand is the idea, continue to play and practice, and follow in Grendel's footsteps of Skulk Domination with out having to turn off models)

And the clan matches as I'm seeing them, are double Alien wins, not Marine wins. Regardless of the arguements that "Marines own Aliens early game" because early game you don't have carapace, and Marines are ranged, Aliens are melee. Solution: Do not rush Marines head on, lie in wait, <b>coordinate attacks, voice comm helps for this</b>, and work in pairs. That's the great thing about FF on and that BIG BEAUITFUL MUZZLE FLASH, when skulks get in close, a.k.a. biting distance, the bullets fly into your partners backs and the muzzle flash blocks the line of sight to the floor making it harder to see the nasty little buggers.

Edit: 33 percent FF I feel is a good thing, sometimes people can get jumpy, or scared, and when you come running back to say a defense spot to heal yourself, an ally might accidentally bite you for whatever reason, or a Gorge could end up spitting you instead of health spray. Also let's not forget all Alien attacks that do awesome damage are melee, person to person. So when 3 Fades are attacking one thing, there is a huge fear of hitting the other one, or skulks/lerks/gorges that may be underneath them attacking as well. 33 percent works, you don't mow your friends down, but there is still a fear/chance of doing it.

Inexorable · November 2002

Fam didn't bring up all the good points. There's still this "Shambler" guy's crack addiction to contend with. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

He's right in that Kharaa are more powerful than Frontiersman right now. Between things like the Carapace bug, Fade's boosting in recent patches and the TF tweak, there's a lot of pressure on the marines to bring a lot of firepower everywhere at once.

He's right that Enhanced Hive Sight would be cooler if it were changed to something cooler.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I have played over 25 scrims in NS. That is over 50 rounds of clan play. I played in the TAU/EC match that some of you might have watched(though I must say it doesn't truly reflect clanplay at all, and is already very dated.) So I have a good idea of what I'm talking about, at least when I talk about what is currently happening in scrims/the clan scene. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Racing in the Indy 500 does not make you Jacques Villeneuve. This kind of credential means nothing. The only way to prove you know what you're talking about is to say things which make sense, and this article doesn't.

Eats · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If a cap on his flight time is needed it should instead be a time or flap limit.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why do you feel the need to put a cap on everything? Inbalances caused by bugs can be fixed by balancing, not by restrictions. Inbalances caused by skill are part of the very game itself. Inbalances caused by tactics are what makes NS so great.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

......Do you not understand that flaps taking energy is putting a limit on them? I don't care if they have a limit or not frankly, what I think could happen is a lerk could find a craz place to hidein at endgame and force the riens to waste a bunch of time teching to jetpacks.....like hide the farm. I only offered this as an alternative if one is needed.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A One Hive Lerk is not viable</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This is such a ridiculous response when you won't even scrim us to let us see them play, seriously. I feel that I have to say this cause everyone is going to count the pts experience like its huge when its not. Just to quantify, you guys pubbed for what? 3, 4 months? and have now in total played....maybe 15 scrims in all the release patches(too many?) Maybe 5 in 1.02, less? I mean, all I can think is that maybe you're thinking about a 2-3 hive lerk? Because we are talking about a 1 hive lerk here.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for the Lerk, and the Skulk Bite model, for the Lerk, learn to fly and to glide and to make proper usage of your attacks and their abilities, you do not need Umbra to be awesome.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

It's not that its impossible to fly as a lerk. Its that its been made difficult to do because of the actual limitations on the controls. You can't move as fast as you could be able to and improving the lerk in this way would only make him see more use without unbalancing him. It would also enable the lerk to be better because people with more skill could maneuver him better. To not say 1 hive lerk sucks is ridiculous, and even if all of ec blasts me for it I'm sorry, I've played ec and no one is doing great with a one hive lerk right now.

The skulk model is headache inducing and anyone who isn't aware that marines are better then aliens a one hive stage will be soon when everyone actually figures out that scansweeps can be used basically as wallhacks to call incoming for marines.

But even despite this, have you ever seen more then 1 lerk on the alien side pre 2 hive. I mean, thats a weak class system.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That's the great thing about FF on and that BIG BEAUITFUL MUZZLE FLASH, when skulks get in close, a.k.a. biting distance, the bullets fly into your partners backs and the muzzle flash blocks the line of sight to the floor making it harder to see the nasty little buggers.

Edit: 33 percent FF I feel is a good thing, sometimes people can get jumpy, or scared, and when you come running back to say a defense spot to heal yourself, an ally might accidentally bite you for whatever reason, or a Gorge could end up spitting you instead of health spray. Also let's not forget all Alien attacks that do awesome damage are melee, person to person. So when 3 Fades are attacking one thing, there is a huge fear of hitting the other one, or skulks/lerks/gorges that may be underneath them attacking as well. 33 percent works, you don't mow your friends down, but there is still a fear/chance of doing it. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

All I see is, I couldn't handle full ff because it makes clans need more skill to play the game.
For the same reason I advocate a better bite model. A better bite model would allow people with more skill to differentiate themselves from people with less skill, by reducing the time when you have to guess which way to turn cause the marine juked in a direction.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Luckly, I have not yet seen Ekaj as a lerk. However I have seen Ebby and SmokeMasta as lerks and let me tell you, I dont care if you have an HMG/Lvl 3 upgrades, and HA - if you see ebby or smoke as a lerk drop everything you have and just try to run. You arn't going to live. Thats the bottom line. After seeing these two masters in work I have tried, many times, to become talented with a lerk. It is by far one of the most complex aliens to learn and master. That is possibly why people are complaining - they rather just walk up to something and swing at it a few times. That is not the case with the lerk.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This is completely ridiculous, I'm not even replying to it.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs.

That actually, isn't one of the better ideas I could think of. If the marines are extremely RP deprived then yes, this would be helpful. But if they have/save up for 75 (1 TF, Upgrade to seige, and 1 seige) then this plan isn't so good. Those structres will be gone rather quickly - and the more structres you have the more damange one seige does (good ol' splash damage!) Generally, I would only set up 5 Def Chambers close to, not right up next to, the marine spawn when we are attacking. You have to make sure that they are out of the seiges range. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

ok, if the game got to this level then marines are screwed, because now they have to spend their rps instead of fighting the alien force fighting a mass of towers, and while they fight this mass of towers the aliens get 3 hives. But I don't even care because I can't prove this. We'll watch it happen for a patch.....and it will be not very fun.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
Basically the game has a very weak economic system right now, which could be altered to add a lot of depth to the game.

The economic system is balanced. A lot of work went into balancing it not only for public play, but also for clan play. Until a few of the current bugs get fixed, this will not be visible.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I would love to see a deeper explanation of this. Please tell me we're supposed to be facting our rts. That would be great.

oh, 1 more:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And the clan matches as I'm seeing them, are double Alien wins, not Marine wins.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I've given you the rationale behind this, I've given you the strategy behind this. I'm sorry but this is the only thing left I know to do:

sYn vs TE record:
2-0
2-0
1-1(we didn't know map)(also we lost as aliens. TE has never beated our marine.)(Ironically, they marine rushed our hive with shotguns)
2-0

I would love to do this all day, but alas, I have work to do <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

more later tonight

Iden · November 2002

Wow.

People have different opinions about wether it's balanced or not.

This is too mind blowing.

On a funny sidenote: Even though clan related and "very important" I consider this to be the same callibar of "it's not balanced or fair!" of the general and suggestion forums.

Eats · November 2002

Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.....

Ratalon · November 2002

Economy-
the aliens do just throw up the rez towers, and the marines do have considerably less rez towers then aliens.
Regeneration-
I so totally agree with this
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>putting a relatively low maximum on webs per gorge(under ten)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Perhaps to make web more of a defensive skill force the gorge to go back to base to "refill" his webbing?
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>not allowing alien buildings to slowly auto build</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Allow the marine buildings to slowly build, through the use of nano building technology of course.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Only cause his children are being eaten. I like the not being able to see as you bite. It makes me feel like a shark (they cannot keep their eyes open when they bite, perhaps the aliens are the same way)
-Disable the showing of any kills, including the aliens kills, team based game!

now reply to replies!
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would like to see model consistency enforced, along with r_drawviewmodel locked to 1</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
As they are not locked why don't people who hate teh teeth just bind 2 keys to r_drawviewmodel 0 & r_drawviewmodel 1 ? until it is locked nothing is stopping them.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>From what I can see, Fades are a tad too strong at the moment. You do not seem to address this point</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
He addresses it throughout the whole.. <i>thesis</i> fade/lerk is all fade power.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Don't bash the Lerk just because you have problems using it please.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Instead of saying that perhaps try.. Why not fly backwards and when you need a flap move backwards and flap? keeping your flight a reverse direction. I think it is a good idea that the Lerks can change direction, if I had wings I would do that too. When soaring I would want to be able to pan left and right though..

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A One Hive Lerk is not viable</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
it is viable for the people who are better as Lerks, but to take all the massive plus a builder gets when a <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'> gets max rez is a bad thing.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Inbalances caused by bugs can be fixed by balancing</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I would reccomend fixing the bugs. unless it is something cool like rocket jumping.

If the aliens do build towers near the base the marines can siege turret them which will slow the alien attack on the base because they are getting splash damaged on the way.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't get what you're trying to do here. It looks like you're trying to heavily change a game design that has been painstakingly worked on for two years, with months of playtests sorting out the balance. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Is that not what makes games fun to play.. change?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Racing in the Indy 500 does not make you Jacques Villeneuve. This kind of credential means nothing. The only way to prove you know what you're talking about is to say things which make sense, and this article doesn't. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It proves that he is not just giving these ideas from articles he read about the MOD.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>flaps taking energy</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Why not the alien is exerting energy to fly, and bite and shoot spines..

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>People have different opinions about wether it's balanced or not.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well as long as one team is TOTALLY different then the other, people will always find something that in unbalanced.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about..... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
What is this a **obscenity** match? Why not stick so your <i>thesis</i> and everyone else can stop measuring their penii as well.. thats right I said penii ! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Ratalon · November 2002

Damn php gives errors but is still able to post it!

and just so this post is not a total waste.. some ideas will be read and cast aside, others might actually be used. thats the way things go ya know?

Eats · November 2002

hrm...
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.....

What is this a **obscenity** match? Why not stick so your thesis and everyone else can stop measuring their penii as well.. thats right I said penii !</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

he gave no points or me to argue so what am I supposed to say.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
not allowing alien buildings to slowly auto build

Allow the marine buildings to slowly build, through the use of nano building technology of course.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This would either be abusively useful or completely useless. Because what exactly are the limits on where a commander can build?(I'm not sure..) Can he hide buildings anywhere and slowly wait for them to build......This could have unpredictable results.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>it is viable for the people who are better as Lerks, but to take all the massive plus a builder gets when a gets max rez is a bad thing.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
?? i don't understand what you're saying.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry

Only cause his children are being eaten. I like the not being able to see as you bite. It makes me feel like a shark (they cannot keep their eyes open when they bite, perhaps the aliens are the same way)
-Disable the showing of any kills, including the aliens kills, team based game!
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I mean, this makes the game less fun for many. It is irritating and reduces the skill of the game.

Berger · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>?? i don't understand what you're saying.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You don't understand the alien resource model then. Each tick, every RT creates resource points equal to (number of hives +1)*players on team. Each player then, gets 1 share of the resources in the pool, and gorges get 3 of these shares. If a player has his maximum resources, his share is doled out between the other players. If all players have full rps, the pool grows, so that when a player spends resources, he recovers them quickly.

When a skulk evolves to lerk, he must have had full rps, assuming only one hive is present. This causes the gorge(s) to receive less rps than they would have if the player had stayed as a skulk.

IN SUMMATION: With one hive present, a player who evolves to lerk greatly reduces the resource flow of the gorge(s) on his team.

Hope you found that helpful. I would contribute to the discussion, but seeing as I have not found an amiable clan, I have no experience in the matter.

~Berger

Eats · November 2002

I knew that, and I thought thats what he was saying, but his sentence didn't make sense and I wanted to make sure thats what he meant before I commented on it......I'm still not sure thats exactly what he's saying.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>but to take all the massive plus a builder gets</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

?? that doesn't make sense

Eats · November 2002

This one is just for Inexorable alone

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>He's right in that Kharaa are more powerful than Frontiersman right now. Between things like the Carapace bug, Fade's boosting in recent patches and the TF tweak, there's a lot of pressure on the marines to bring a lot of firepower everywhere at once.

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

thats not what i said at all......

I said marines were better several times........perhaps you didn't read my article at all? I mean, you gave some harsh criticism, or rather jumped behind all the PTs position, for not getting a main point of the article. Perhaps your reading comprehension needs work? Cause thats the opposite of what I was saying.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
I have played over 25 scrims in NS. That is over 50 rounds of clan play. I played in the TAU/EC match that some of you might have watched(though I must say it doesn't truly reflect clanplay at all, and is already very dated.) So I have a good idea of what I'm talking about, at least when I talk about what is currently happening in scrims/the clan scene.

Racing in the Indy 500 does not make you Jacques Villeneuve. This kind of credential means nothing.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If you don't think experience matters then you must have some kind of brain defect. What do people hire for jobs based on? What is the # 1 credential for anything. Would you take a surgeon who is doing something for the first time ever, or a surgeon who's done the operation hundreds of times before. I mean, I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to you, that was a really dense comment to make.

FatKao · November 2002

I love the playtesters....

<sYn> we found a completely unbalanced strat it should be fixed
<playtesters> no it's balanced you don't know what your talking about because we played longer

the bite model should be changed tho, I PERSONALY know two people that get sick from playing skulk with the bite model on.

Iden · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about..... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And you clearly don't care what we think. We could list a million arguments of why you're wrong and you're never going to be convinced otherwise.

What does that even refer to? I don't know what I'm talking about?

Are you suggesting: I'm not in a clan?

Yes, I am in a clan named VLP. I love to play Tournament and pub styles equally.

Are you suggesting: You haven't played enough?

I'm also speaking from experience on wether or not I think it's balanced. I've racked up a good amount of 'rounds' as well, although I haven't actually *counted* every one, I'm usually more interested in the game, although one stat site is listing that I've played a good 70+ hours.

Are you suggesting: That your post does not exactly match most of the typical whining that goes on in the general and suggestions forums? If you have a problem with the search function I'll gladly hutn down almost all of your ideas that have been made before.

So we've both have a good amount of playing time: Are you better than me? Is that why I don't know what I'm talking about? If so than does that mean the other people in here who are better than you can say you don't know what you're talking about?

You seem to be quite stuck on your opinions and I'm okay with that. None of us will ever convince you otherwise no matter how many accounts we bring up to you. Beause you've had a different experience than we have. If we bring up that we've had more experinces than you, or better skills, or worse skills, or less time: you'll use any or all of those points to bring up why our points aren't valid.

... Wow, that's quite the tangent right there. How many times did I go off track?

Anyway, I think I've made my point clear: I have no idea what I'm talking about and neither does anyone else <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Eats · November 2002

Iden:

You haven't even brought up any points, tho you have brought some credentials and it looks like you pub alot and don't scrim that much. I'm not even sure what you're saying. I've tried to rebut every argument brought so far, and you haven't brought any at all. I mean if you want to argue without points like this we might as well just scrim, and if syn beats you, then will you back down?

#webclan
irc.gamesnet.net

I think we're going to be able to play every weekday night coming up this week, as usual, but I'm not sure if thanksgiving will have some affect on this. We have our own server(thats quite fast) most of the time, but I'm sure we'll be able to find a server if its down. So feel free to stop by and challenge us.

Eats · November 2002

EC/PTs, this post is purely for you:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
-The skulk bite model makes Jesus cry(I know I didn't mention this but either league rules should be changed to be able to turn this off, or it should just be altered to not cover the whole screen. Not only is it annoying and headache inducing, but it makes being a skulk considerably harder. But: This will not balance the 2 races at the one hive stage! Do not fix this and think the problem is solved!)

I would like to see model consistency enforced, along with r_drawviewmodel locked to 1. Skulks are not meant to be killers on four legs, they are meant to be scouts and last ditch defence. If you find it too hard to play as a skulk with the viewmodel on, you need more practice.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I'm thinking you didn't read my article carefully? I make it clear throughout that marines > 1 hive aliens. Even if you took away the skulk model,
lmg marines > skulks (in groups) This is basicaly verbatim from my article. Also I think its funny that you're suggesting that I(and all of syn who agree btw) need more practice when I have more practice then you at skulking in matches, and ec won't even play us.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
Even if the marines are able to bring down one hive after the alien team is composed of fades and lerks the aliens will still have a 95% chance of winning. I have never seen aliens lose once they got fade/lerk going.

From what I can see, Fades are a tad too strong at the moment. You do not seem to address this point, and instead moan about Alien turrets and webs, which are defensive in nature. The aliens are meant to be the defensive team.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Again I think you didn't read carefully, I do mention that fade/lerk is ridiculous throughout the article. I think it is well known that fades are unbalanced right now tho so it wasn't a major focus, but it was mentioned several times.

I just think this is funny :

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You do not seem to address this point, and instead moan about Alien turrets and webs, which are defensive in nature. The aliens are meant to be the defensive team.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs.

Sounds like a good tactic to me, rather than a bug. Marines have siege turrets.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Do you not see that these "defensive" weapons are being subverted and used as offensive weapons?
But this is a future problem so I'm not that worried about it getting fixed immediately. Not like I am about the other parts.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
Basically the lerk should have no inertia in regards to changing direction during flight. This would make the lerk far more mobile, and much easier to use.

Don't bash the Lerk just because you have problems using it please.

QUOTE
-A One Hive Lerk is not viable

Tell that to eBnar, or Ekaj. A lerk is more than viable.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

How about you suck some more pts **obscenity** instead of giving some valid points. Oh wait, you've got me covered!

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Luckly, I have not yet seen Ekaj as a lerk. However I have seen Ebby and SmokeMasta as lerks and let me tell you, I dont care if you have an HMG/Lvl 3 upgrades, and HA - if you see ebby or smoke as a lerk drop everything you have and just try to run. You arn't going to live.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

That's a ridiculous thing to say, I dunno what else to tell you. How about the pts play us with their super elite lerk forces and we see who wins?

and once again:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
This, in addition to forward offensive and defensive towers could basically guarantee eventual alien victory just by trapping the marines so they would be unable to attack anything without first fighting their way through masses of towers and webs.

That actually, isn't one of the better ideas I could think of. If the marines are extremely RP deprived then yes, this would be helpful. But if they have/save up for 75 (1 TF, Upgrade to seige, and 1 seige) then this plan isn't so good. Those structres will be gone rather quickly - and the more structres you have the more damange one seige does (good ol' splash damage!) Generally, I would only set up 5 Def Chambers close to, not right up next to, the marine spawn when we are attacking. You have to make sure that they are out of the seiges range.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Again you guys bring up this insignificant part. Ok, I never said offensive tower right outside the enemy base. All the aliens have to do is spam all the hallways with towers and webs. Now the marines have to seige every hallway and move an inch at a time. Meanwhile the aliens have full map control and can constantly assault the marines, keeping most of them at base.

And I care about nothing insane said. Everything you talked about was under extra or future changes. I could defend these but they aren't even that important right now.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>QUOTE
Basically the game has a very weak economic system right now, which could be altered to add a lot of depth to the game.

The economic system is balanced. A lot of work went into balancing it not only for public play, but also for clan play. Until a few of the current bugs get fixed, this will not be visible.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I can't really say you're wrong because your argument was so vague. It would be nice if you added more detail so that you're not just saying "I disagree, but how the economy is supposed to work is hidden from everyone(except of course the Great PTs) indefinitely"

TAUTheOMeGa · November 2002

i see your scrims against clans, your wins or your losses, your deficiencies of skill in different aspects of the game, or anything else really has made this that post a little mroe subjective as i would liek to see

i'd rather see ebnar not being able to fly the lerk in a certain area (which is absolutely impossible) then a claim that the lerk is worthless

etc etc etc everythign else is addressed here

i find many of your claims not to be thought through, it seems more like a post complaining that you lost because u couldn't kill a guy with this or that because of this or that

-TAU|TheOMeGa

Eats · November 2002

Sometimes everything just comes together all at once and everything makes sense. All these ec/pt people have been attacking what I've been saying, and I couldn't understand where they were coming from at all, and then even omega from tau jumped in. But then I had a very clairvoyant conversation with bozman and omega in #evolutionarily so here it is:

[22:08] <BoZmAn20> How long are your scrims?
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> it just ends up acceptable
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> well
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> marine side
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> >5 min
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> aline side could maybe take 20ish?
[22:08] <sYn|Eats> alien
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> this is average of course
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Heh
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> how log does it take to get 2 hives
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> get fade/lerk going
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Our match against EGC was verging on one and a half hours
[22:09] <kharaa_0z> it was good though
[22:09] <kharaa_0z> much fun
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> Yeah
[22:09] <sYn|Eats> ....
[22:09] <BoZmAn20> I like long matches
[22:10] * kharaa_0z grumbles "siege bug"
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> 0z?
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> u got a demo?
[22:10] <kharaa_0z> my view?
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> i'd like to cehck that out tomorrow
[22:10] <BoZmAn20> We got the siege bug too, 0z.
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> long matches like that seem unrealistic
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> unrealistic?
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> i dunno what else to say
[22:10] <TAU|TheOMeGa> ROFL
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:10] <sYn|Eats> im not sure how that would happen
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> omega, <a href='http://www.vu.union.edu/~torresj/files/demos/ECvsEGC.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.vu.union.edu/~torresj/files/dem...mos/ECvsEGC.zip</a>
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> unless there was alot of slow seiging going on
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> thx man
[22:11] <BoZmAn20> Uhh, it happens because both teams can fend off a rush.
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> thats iggies demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> he missed a big point though
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> bleh
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> oh well
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> i need to get ebby's demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> the best part of egc marines match
[22:11] <TAU|TheOMeGa> alien demo
[22:11] <kharaa_0z> was when insane killed half of his team in their major skulk rush
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> im thinking perhaps people didn't rush correctly....
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:11] <sYn|Eats> well
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> i'll watch it before i say anthing
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> Heh
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> boz
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> None of us rushed, Eats.
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> i watched the demo
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> who won which sides?
[22:12] <UGL|Andrew-NS> the demo was nice
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> who won which sides?
[22:12] * UGL|Andrew-NS liked it
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> and i died when i saw those 5? each my base
[22:12] <BoZmAn20> Alien victories
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> lol
[22:12] <sYn|Eats> well duh
[22:12] <TAU|TheOMeGa> if TAU rushes its cuz we went ot hive to take it and it was the alien's hive
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> each rush my base
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> and no one was around
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> then insane killed 1/2
[22:12] <TAU|TheOMeGa> rofl
[22:12] <kharaa_0z> then my team phased in
[22:13] <kharaa_0z> and saved teh day
[22:13] <TAU|TheOMeGa> ebby's lekr is teh pwn
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> jesus christ
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> well, whatever
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> ec, play us sometime
[22:13] <sYn|Eats> this week?
[22:13] <kharaa_0z> talk to cy/fam/mart
[22:13] <BoZmAn20> We don't do weekday scrims/matches
[22:13] * pac|cs has joined #Evolutionarily
[22:13] * ChanServ sets mode: +v pac|cs
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:14] <BoZmAn20> We also don't tend to like games that boil down to how well the marines can rush
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> i don't understand what makes you gusy think you're so much more amazingly bvetter at fending off rushes when you play so little, i mean, i'll watch this demo
[22:14] <sYn|Eats> but what you're saying isn't making sense unless we aren't playing the same game
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> We're not
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> who said they were?
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> well then you aren't playing to win
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> No, we're not.
[22:15] <BoZmAn20> We're playing to have fun.
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> the essence of ns
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> so you expect to bomb out of the leagues?
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> cause i mean
[22:15] <sYn|Eats> the clans playing to win will beat you
[22:15] * pac|cs is now known as [FoR]PacMan
[22:15] <TAU|TheOMeGa> leagues are unimportant
[22:15] * clik` has joined #Evolutionarily
[22:16] <BoZmAn20> Whats your point? Why do you think all our matches are against clans like TAU, TE, IFB, EGC?
[22:16] <TAU|TheOMeGa> <3
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> i have no idea
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> ....
[22:16] * clik` is now known as Derfud
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> ok
[22:16] <sYn|Eats> well if this is true
[22:16] <BoZmAn20> Because they're fun community clans, not CAL teams that want to win in the ladders.
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> when i suggest things to balance the game for us playing to win, could ec not take a dump on the sugestions
[22:17] <Derfud> my gerbil's breath smell's like gerbil food
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:17] <sYn|Eats> i get them from experience
[22:17] <BoZmAn20> So do we
[22:17] <BoZmAn20> Our experiences are just different.
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> but you aren't suggesting things to balance the game!
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> because you aren't playing to win
[22:18] <TAU|TheOMeGa> the game is balanced
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> how the hell would you even know if you never play it competitively?
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> i mean
[22:18] <sYn|Eats> if thats the claim
[22:19] <sYn|Eats> ?
[22:19] <BoZmAn20> I dont really even know what you're trying to argue with me about
[22:20] <TAU|TheOMeGa> rofl
[22:20] <sYn|Eats> its fine
[22:20] <TAU|TheOMeGa> eats ur creating an argument when one was never prompted
[22:20] <sYn|Eats> this will be enough
[22:23] <BoZmAn20> Anyway, yeah, EC were never meant to be a competitive clan. Hell, when we formed, we never even THOUGHT about NS being a clan game, none of us had even played it. We've never picked members based on skill, we're just a bunch of guys that like to play games together, like to have fun with eachother. The competitive thing just came along with being the "First NS clan"

I mean, that totally makes sense. If you're not playing to win then you're not even coming from the same place as us. We at sYn are playing to win matches. We use the best strategy available to us and try to win with it. I'm sure my article didn't look subjective because of course it wasn't. I've played over 50 rounds of competitive scrims and I was writing what i've been seeing, why I think its working, and have tried to point out the problems so they can be resolved.
Though when I was in TAU I must say I never got the idea we were playing for anything but victory, but I digress.

So, in conclusion, please don't attack my article if you're not coming from the same place as I am. I posted this to talk about balancing the game for clans that are playing as hard as they can, and the game isn't balanced in this regard.

Ari · November 2002

Interesting, Eats. Interesting.

First off, I'm me. That's good enough for me, and if you're actually interested in feedback and idea exchange, then it'll be good enough for you as well. Wether I've played one match or five hundred quickly becomes irrelevant, given the quality of my speech. I've seen the most experienced players spout utter garbage, and I've seen complete and total newbies speak a few words that completely changed the course of a game's development.

Now on to the real topic, however. Eats, as I read your article, one thing kept coming out over and over to me. You basically want it to be Marines in Frontiersmen skins versus Marines in Alien skins. The game, however, is not. The game is <i>Aliens</i> against Marines.

After reading this and numerous other threads, I realize that most people do not truly comprehend the depth of that difference. Alien. As in totally different. As in <i>completely different mindset</i>. Do you really have the mindset it takes to be an effective alien? Or is your idea of playing aliens to just kinda peek around corners and throw acid rockets at the marines? Something that I don't think is really emphasized enough is this: The aliens are <b>not</b> marines in a different skin. You don't play 'em the same way. You <i>can't</i> play them the same way.

After reading your article, I found quite a few things that I feel need to be addressed:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>multiple marines in the same room create cross fires and are able to focus fire on one skulk.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Why do the marines even know the skulk is there? Either the skulk failed in being sneaky, or the skulk was trying to play like a marine. If you play the skulk right, your enemy will know you're <b>somewhere</b> around, but they won't be able to do anything about it. Every time - <i>every</i> time I've died as a skulk, it was because I was careless and let the marines know my precise location.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>the dynamics of the game could be made to focus on resource and tech domination. Where both the marine and alien forces fight for control of resources, and one side eventually overwhelms the other</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Sorry for the comparison, NS team, but this ain't a first-person-shooter version of Starcraft, Eats. Take that idea <i>straight out</i> of your head. Yes, resources are part of it. Tech is part of it. But an HMG-wielding Jetpacked level-3 armor/weapon marine is gonna die if he doesn't see a good player's skulk. And that's the way it should be, IMHO.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A major reason for this is that the lerk is very expensive, and wouldn't even be viable for very cheap with his one-hive abilities. Another issue is his flight.
{snip}
The only truly useful abilities for the lerk right now are flying, umbra and poison cloud.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No offense, but if that's the way you feel about the lerk, you have <i>no idea what you're talking about</i>. A good lerk will almost never die. Why? Because the marines won't have the slightest idea where he even is. A good lerk will spine you a few times, then come out of nowhere and <i>bite your eff-ing head off</i>. I won't even pretend it's easy to learn the lerk. It isn't. I'm nowhere near good enough with it. But I like to think I <i>understand</i> the lerk. In some ways, he's very similar to the skulk, and I have to again ask <i>why the marines even knew where the lerk was.</i>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Redemption is just not useful at all</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Excuse me? So you're saying the cost of the fade, lerk, gorge, or other creature is completely irrelevant? As far as I'm concerned, knowing that no matter what I do with my lmg, the alien <i>won't @#($*ing die</i> is pretty disconcerting.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If standing behind an umbra cloud that a marine is shooting through doesn't give umbra benefits, it needs to.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I thought about this for a while, and I have to respectfully disagree. While logically it makes perfect sense, think about it this way: What happens when a lerk umbra's the doorway and you've got 6 aliens with ranged weapons? That gives the aliens far too much power, I think.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Alien ability where standing on an unclaimed resource nozzle heals alien health and armor, and when the alien is at full health, this slightly improves his resource flow.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Again, I disagree. That's what regen and the gorges are for.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-Mining Resource Points is a potential future Abuse. {snip}one-hive-aliens lack a way to detonate these mines without damaging themselves severely, if not dying</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The mines don't detonate instantly. It takes a moment for them to go off. Delayed proximity, my dear Watson. I don't know how many proximity mines I've set off without dying, but it should suffice to say that I've <i>never</i> died to a proximity mine while in gameplay. (Doing stupid experiments, yes. But not in a game.) They're an annoyance, and if you're not careful, they'll get you.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-Web and Tower Spam will soon become unbalanced</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
First off, you can't build unlimited towers in one location. Secondly, see the godsend called a welder. See the welder burn organic alien towers like there's no tomorrow. Two marines (one attacking the towers, one welding the first marine's armor) can tear out towers like they're not even there. It's a nuisance more than anything.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-In tournament mode show marine kills(why not? I can assure you clans are not going to play for who can get the most kills)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Actually, I'd say in tournament mode don't show ANY score, just show who on your team is still alive (and even that I have some questions on). The final matter is really which team kills the other off. All else is irrelevant.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-Replace Hive Sight with an ability that would be called confusion, or something similar. This ability would make turrets miss, at level 3, 50% more often(maybe more, it would need testing.) This may actually need to do more. It'd probably be underpowered as is.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Did I hear you right? <i>Replace hive sight?</i> Are you out of your mind? That, in and of itself, is quite possibly the most awesome thing about playing Aliens. It's almost as bad as people whining about the skulk's bite model. It doesn't impair <b>me</b> any, but it does take a little bit to get used to. Personally, I'd rather have the background noises removed from the maps, because I can't play NS for more than a couple hours without getting a massive headache from the sound. But I'm also perfectly content with the noises staying in, because it <i>significantly</i> adds to the game. When you're straining to hear footsteps over the ship's creaking... That's just cool.

I guess in short, I have to almost completely disagree with you, Eats. As I see it, the changes you're suggesting would make this little more than marine-vs-marine combat with different skins. And that game, I believe, would be repulsive.

The most revealing thing, however, was this short tidbit from the <i>about</i> section of the shambler.net website: "Shambler.net is a games site, focusing on strategy games, and in particular, Blizzard games. We host game reviews, commentary on games in general, and Warcraft 3 strategy articles."

In light of this, your suggestions make very good sense. But as I said before, this isn't just some wierd FPS version of Starcraft or Warcraft. This is <i>Natural Selection</i>, and I (along with many others, I'm sure) would appreciate it if people would quit trying to make it into one of those games.

[edited: Fixed a few typographical errors. Whoops.]

Eats · November 2002

hmm, ok.

"multiple marines in the same room create cross fires and are able to focus fire on one skulk.[/quote]Why do the marines even know the skulk is there? Either the skulk failed in being sneaky, or the skulk was trying to play like a marine. If you play the skulk right, your enemy will know you're somewhere around, but they won't be able to do anything about it."

hah, in a pub this is true and I would agree with you. But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps. This is available basically at the start of the game, before the marines even leave base, and only costs 1 rp(maybe 2? i think 1) per use. Now, from reading what it does in the instructions you would think this would be next to useless. But what most people don't realize is that if you place a scanner sweep on a group of marines, you see every alien in the vicinity with no delay time. This means those clever aliens hiding around the corner are revealed to the cmder, who can instantly relay this information to the marine force. Basically unless this alien runs and fast, he is going to die.

When 3-4 marines begin a rush on the alien hive with sweeps laid on them constantly the aliens are in serious trouble.

"No offense, but if that's the way you feel about the lerk, you have no idea what you're talking about. A good lerk will almost never die. Why? Because the marines won't have the slightest idea where he even is. A good lerk will spine you a few times, then come out of nowhere and bite your eff-ing head off. I won't even pretend it's easy to learn the lerk. It isn't. I'm nowhere near good enough with it. But I like to think I understand the lerk."

The lerk is ridiculously expensive, and perhaps only slightly better then a skulk(if at all) at one hive. For the steep price you're paying the lerk is not at all worth it at one hive and if you start playing in alot of matches you will see this. Also scanner sweep negates all that stealth nonsense you were talking about.

"Redemption is just not useful at all[/quote] Excuse me? So you're saying the cost of the fade, lerk, gorge, or other creature is completely irrelevant? As far as I'm concerned, knowing that no matter what I do with my lmg, the alien won't @#($*ing die is pretty disconcerting."

Well, I suppose you could argue that because carapace is unbalanced right now so you don't see redempton getting any play, but I don't think thats even true. Players like having control of when they flee and when they don't, and most alien classes don't even need this ability, since they are able to move fast enough to flee from nearly any situation anyway. But forget all that, just know this:
Right now redemption is seeing very little if any play in competitive matches, and i would be very surprised to see it get any play when carapace is balanced. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.

"If standing behind an umbra cloud that a marine is shooting through doesn't give umbra benefits, it needs to.[/quote]I thought about this for a while, and I have to respectfully disagree. While logically it makes perfect sense, think about it this way: What happens when a lerk umbra's the doorway and you've got 6 aliens with ranged weapons? That gives the aliens far too much power, I think."

That is the entire alien force with tech you realize. That is all the aliens on the team, meaning they have no gorge. That should be very powerful.

[quote]-In tournament mode show marine kills(why not? I can assure you clans are not going to play for who can get the most kills)[/quote]Actually, I'd say in tournament mode don't show ANY score, just show who on your team is still alive (and even that I have some questions on). The final matter is really which team kills the other off. All else is irrelevant.

This is only meant for fun. It doesn't matter whether they show scores or not but it would make the game more fun. Like in bond how it told you you're specialties at the end of the round. It wouldn't affect anything for any clan that is playing to win. CS used to do this hide the scores nonsense too, but it was more fun seeing the scores so it was changed.

[/quote]-Replace Hive Sight with an ability that would be called confusion, or something similar. This ability would make turrets miss, at level 3, 50% more often(maybe more, it would need testing.) This may actually need to do more. It'd probably be underpowered as is.[/quote]Did I hear you right? Replace hive sight? Are you out of your mind? That, in and of itself, is quite possibly the most awesome thing about playing Aliens.

This is just a very newbie thing to say. I mean, turn up your gamma, this skill is useless and will never, ever see any play in a competitive environment.

Ari · November 2002

First off, I'm rather offended that you seem to think so much of your knowledge and so little of mine. You posted the article and asked for feedback, not me. Calling me a newbie and implying that I'm an itiot who doesn't know what I'm talking about is not appreciated. I'd appreciate it if you kept to the discussion at hand, sir. Thank you.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No, actually, I beg to differ. Just because the commander tells you that there's an alien around doesn't mean you will be able to do anything about it. You'll just know that there's an alien around, but that'll be old news, because I'll be laughing at you.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>When 3-4 marines begin a rush on the alien hive with sweeps laid on them constantly the aliens are in serious trouble.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If 5 perfectly good skulks can't take out 3-4 entry-level marines, they deserve to lose. Would you not agree?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The lerk is ridiculously expensive, and perhaps only slightly better then a skulk(if at all) at one hive. For the steep price you're paying the lerk is not at all worth it at one hive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I see no evidence to back this claim up. You yourself gave the evidence that clearly demonstrates that you don't know how to use the lerk, so I feel no need to discuss this further. I'd be glad to talk about this at a future point when you are more proficient in its use.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Right now redemption is seeing very little if any play in competitive matches, and i would be very surprised to see it get any play when carapace is balanced. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
So in your opinion, having not used redemption extensively, you believe it is useless. Personally, I almost always use it as a gorge. And almost always use it if I actually manage to get an Onos. Shoot me and I disappear to safety. And then I come back, restored, and you're still recovering from the last attack. Redemption is far from useless, sir.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That is the entire alien force with tech you realize. That is all the aliens on the team, meaning they have no gorge. That should be very powerful.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Very well, make it 5 aliens. Again, I say, making umbra stop all damage rays that penetrate it is simply too powerful. Multiple aliens bombarding a location with no way to return fire short of grenades? Perhaps you could compare this to multiple siege cannons behind a wall, but I still believe it's too powerful.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It doesn't matter whether they show scores or not but it would make the game more fun. Like in bond how it told you you're specialties at the end of the round. It wouldn't affect anything for any clan that is playing to win.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Quite frankly, either you win or you don't. Your <i>team</i> wins or it doesn't. I've seen perfectly well what happens when you include individual scores, and it has been documented countless times. The fact is that insertion of individual scores leads to less teamwork, <i>even in the most serious of clans</i>.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I mean, turn up your gamma, this skill {hive sight} is useless and will never, ever see any play in a competitive environment.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I honestly don't even know how to respond to this. You're telling me that if you hear "Structure is under attack," you don't bother to spin around and see where the attack is? That if a teammate yells "I need help!" and is subsequently distracted by <i>fighting for their lives</i>, you'll wait for them to get free, just so they can remove the distress of actually having to look for the red circle with their name on it? In all honesty, the only way I see this not being used is if people cheat and turn the view models off. Hive sight is incredibly useful, sir. I don't understand how you can say this.

Inexorable · November 2002

Waitwaitwait..... <b>you're</b> this Shambler guy? Well, that makes this a whole different deal. Here I thought I was arguing in proxy with just some guy who liked Shambler's ideas.

Alrightythen, let's break it down:

As I said before, the first 4 paragraphs are good. The whats, hows and general whys all look good.

A minor nitpick is that you don't seem terribly impressed with the alien objectives in the early game, the tactic of 'rushing to delay'. But that's the whole point. With one hive, the aliens have a horrible time trying to crack marine defences so your whole goal is to give your Gorge enough time to get a second hive started. That's the way the game is played, and I'm betting it was designed that way.

It's when you get into "Deeper Problems" that trouble starts.

The armor bug is exactly that, a bug which shouldn't exist and unbalances things. How do I know it's unbalancing? Your IRC log. Unlike most pub players and clans the PTs weren't playing to win, they were playing for fun. I can't prove it, but I bet the whole reason the bug wasn't found till now was that people were choosing other upgrades a lot. When somebody did choose Carapace, he lived longer sure, but he was supposed to so nobody thought much of it. The game was balanced without considering the effects of an entire alien team sporting Carapace.

Either way, doubling your effective HP for a 2 RP investment is nuts.

Nobody really tries to defend resource nodes if they know what they're doing. The marines don't need 15 nodes to get a decent income, they only need 3-4. As long as your marines aren't dying left and right that will be enough to keep them equipped and have the upgrades coming in.
-As for massing the marines, that's a required component of play. Sure, you might have enough organization in your clan with everybody having a mic and following orders that your Comm's head wouldn't explode having a single marine in every room of the map. And maybe you're such ninja masters that you can go toe-to-toe with Fade in only light armor weilding an LMG, but this also has to be balanced for pub play where the only feasible way for marines to move is in as big a group as possible.
-Arguing the benefits of 1 Hive Lerks is a little pointless. I really don't think you're ever supposed to see them. In all the games I've played, a decent alien team will have a 2nd hive up shortly after the Skulks hit 33 RP. So at the point anybody could even get to Lerks, they're automatically 2 Hive. Even at 1 Hive though, they're indispensable when trying to take out turret farms due to their long range.
-On the sensory upgrades though, you're basically right. Redemption and Regeneration though I think are going to see dramatic increases in use once Carapace gets fixed.
-I really have no idea what you're problem is with webbing. It takes precisely 0 seconds to cut through it with a Welder, and even if a Gorge comes up and hits you directly with it your buddies should kill it in seconds.
-Alien building have to autobuild. Letting the Comm drop several buildings and have a marine at each one, where the aliens could only build one at a time would be incredibly unbalancing.
-I don't see how mining resource nodes would be a problem. For the small investment of a free Skulk, the mines are gone. I figure that's a fair trade for the valuable early game RP cost of a mine pack, and the fact you had to send a lone marine deep into alien territory on a mission where even if he did succeed, it's still suicide.
-I've already laughed about the need to get rid of the Skulk attack animation, but I want to do it again. HAHA

"Extra Stuff"

-I figure it's a better idea to take away alien kills. Clanners aren't worried about kills after all, you said it yourself.
-If you're good enough not to hit your teammates, the exact percentage of FF is almost irrelevant isn't it? Not all the clans are playing to be uber-leet and the NS devs have decided to include them in it's balancing considerations.
-I'm pretty sure the only hitscan weapon the aliens have is Parasite. Spikes is an actual projectile if I'm not mistaken.
-We've talked about Umbra before.
-Even without any economy considerations, this is bad for pub balance. People would spend all their time sitting on resource nodes instead of fighting marines where they belong.
-Yeah, EHS is fairly useless. I'ld be looking for something that would make me invisible to motion tracking rather than an upgrade which makes turrets miss. Either way, the ability to see marines better is hardly important when compared to SoF or Cloaking.

-Edit to Ari: He means the Sensory Chamber upgrade <i>Enhanced Hive Sight</i>, not the regular HUD displays of blobs and whatnot.

Eats · November 2002

Ari, this isn't just about arguing you understand. I mean You could sit here all day and claim the lerk is balanced and is seeing lots of play, but if you play scrims you'll see first hand that you're wrong. This is true for all of these points:

-lerks

-redemption

-what you're suggesting with umbra(this doesn't happen any differently now then it would)

-hivesight(I'm not even sure what you're saying, if you're not blind you see this stuff fine)

Just to clarify this isn't just me and syn playing but all the opponents we play against. I see what they do and what they use.

You claim this tourny mode score thing is well documented yet provide no examples.......

QUOTE
But in a match of ns it isn't for one reason, scanner sweeps.

No, actually, I beg to differ. Just because the commander tells you that there's an alien around doesn't mean you will be able to do anything about it. You'll just know that there's an alien around, but that'll be old news, because I'll be laughing at you.

I'm thinking maybe you don't know how this works? Scanner sweep has a long duration and we know the names of all the places. If the cmder says an alien is coming around the corner from such and such a place we are all looking at it and he's going to die. And if he moves the scan lasts awhile.....What you're suggesting is unrealistic. Unrealistic in that for all my rounds I have never seen it happen.

Eats · November 2002

Inexorable.....the early alien delay game is unbalanced. A good marine force will rush your hive and kill you. There is no known strategy to stop this right now and it doesn't look like one is forthcoming.

As for the carapace thing. It is a bug, I said it was a bug, removing it doesn't balance the game tho. Marine rush.......

I don't know what to say to this stuff because they aren't really arguments, tho I will mention turret farms don't exist(or shouldn't) in clan play.

Basically I've answered all this stuff in previous replies. You can find them.

You can't cut through webs that have offensive chambers behind them without getting shot easily(if at all.) I mean, they will soon be abusive, I dunno what to say. It's not something I can prove because its foresight, hopefully the devs will see what I'm talking about and agree.

I'm pretty sure spikes are hitscan tho. I think term was talking about it and he seems to be running all these tests. I could be wrong tho as I haven't tested it myself.

Iden · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eats @ Nov 25 2002, 12:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Iden:

You haven't even brought up any points, tho you have brought some credentials and it looks like you pub alot and don't scrim that much. I'm not even sure what you're saying. I've tried to rebut every argument brought so far, and you haven't brought any at all. I mean if you want to argue without points like this we might as well just scrim, and if syn beats you, then will you back down?

#webclan
irc.gamesnet.net

I think we're going to be able to play every weekday night coming up this week, as usual, but I'm not sure if thanksgiving will have some affect on this. We have our own server(thats quite fast) most of the time, but I'm sure we'll be able to find a server if its down. So feel free to stop by and challenge us.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I pub and play plenty in tournament mode.

If you don't see a point then you're looking at my rant wrong then. I didn't counter any of your points which is what you're looking for. An argument, a place to prove you're right and the others are wrong for once and all.

My "point" is: People/Clans are having different experiences and so aren't you. I've watched several clan matches, including those from IWA, TAU, and EC. I've seen the same number of wins on both sides, often depending on the relative skill of the players.

So let me repeat myself: You seemingly have had different experiences.

Your arguments are based on your experiences and therefore cannot reflect the entire picture of balancing unless you've played in every clan match ever. Have you? I'll answer you here: No you haven't. You have NOT kept track of EVERY single NS clan match or scrim ever.

Sure, I'd love to scrim you guys. You'll rip us to *@#$ing shreds. No doubt. What's that going to prove? You're obviously way more skilled than my clan. So what? Our clan fights and it's the defining turning point in wether all of NS is balanced or not?

If another better clan beats you, will you back down?

othell · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eats @ Nov 25 2002, 12:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You can't cut through webs that have offensive chambers behind them without getting shot easily(if at all.) I mean, they will soon be abusive, I dunno what to say.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Am I wrong... or isn't that the prime way to use webbing? It's actually silly that you're suggesting that webbing should not be used one of the many ways it was intended to be used. OC's do not fire as quickly as marine turrets, using webbing is one way to give the OCs one or two good shots.

There is a limit on the amount of webbing allowed in any one place though, so there really shouldn't be any issues with webbing.

Twex · November 2002

in case you haven't noticed that this argument is running in circles: Eats can only be proven wrong by beating his clan with aliens in a match

furthermore: whoever plays a game not to win, but just to have fun needs not to argue about balance in the first place

Very Important Clan Balance Stuff-read It!

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