ns_machina feedback
Merkaba
Digital Harmony Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 22Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
Digital Harmony Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 22Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
Hi all, let me first just state something that I hope has been obvious to the majority of you - Machina is not finished. It's close, mind - aside from the readyroom, ambient sounds, undetailed areas and missing vents, it's finished <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
So bearing in mind that I am still elbow deep in the mishmash of lines and vertexes that make up the map, what needs to be changed? Are there any crucial areas of the map that need some loving (pertaining to gameplay and not visuals)?
I loving good feedback! ^,^ V
<i>Some bug fixes/changes for the next release:
* Rotating lift will probably be replaced with an alternative.
* The Pit floor can now be leapt from.
* Central lift (crater south) no longer can kill people.
* Railings in front of all the 'chutes' into the chasm.
* Ladders to vents from within hive rooms (particuarly Tau Ceti)
* Expanded Tau Ceti so is less cramped.
* New vents from Tau Ceti (hive) to neighbouring siege areas.
* New vent from Mausoleum (hive), to Turning Point.</i>
So bearing in mind that I am still elbow deep in the mishmash of lines and vertexes that make up the map, what needs to be changed? Are there any crucial areas of the map that need some loving (pertaining to gameplay and not visuals)?
I loving good feedback! ^,^ V
<i>Some bug fixes/changes for the next release:
* Rotating lift will probably be replaced with an alternative.
* The Pit floor can now be leapt from.
* Central lift (crater south) no longer can kill people.
* Railings in front of all the 'chutes' into the chasm.
* Ladders to vents from within hive rooms (particuarly Tau Ceti)
* Expanded Tau Ceti so is less cramped.
* New vents from Tau Ceti (hive) to neighbouring siege areas.
* New vent from Mausoleum (hive), to Turning Point.</i>
Comments
Otherwise I love it!
Things I don't like:
* Lifts, I think they should be displaced by ramps or stairs
* Too open marine base. It looks good, but really difficult to defend against fade/lerk
(* Bugs, or noclip texture should be more used at some locations)
All in all great map! I hope the map will be updated with the next patch!
However I worry that the amount of acute angles, cover, and darkness might make this an alien map.
One thing i dont like is the marine spawn floor texture. It looks way too dark, could you perhaps replace it?
Too many ambush spots and vents <i>by far</i>.
If the map is no fun, has some glaring problems or annoyances that people will notice every time they play, then naturally I want to do something about it. I can't declare this map a success unless it at has some staying power, is enjoyable, and will be enjoyed months from now; so please, help me achieve this end!
Please try and be specific...for example, broadband, what do you consider 'unneeded crap'? What you think is unneeded I might think is necessary, so help me out here.
i do love how the map feels though.. not as big or as complex as i thought it would be, i love it
Giant pits o'doom. Absolutely <i>love'em.</i> Love the whole style, really. I'll have to actually play it with other people and get back to you on game play though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Darwin+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwin)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
So far it's the only new map I think I'm going to like.
It's got neat features, but they don't detract from gameplay, they instead manage to enhance it. The things he did with the layout and the giant pit are awesome. Creating paths a marine on foto can't use but that add real speed to the ability to move around the map in a way more inovative than the typical vent system.
He manages to create balanced siege points, always a map killer when not done well.
The pit siege on Tau hive reminds me of Upper Processing, but fixed without the vent right above you. Lots of ups and downs behind the sieeg to make the fight intesting. Sieging from Noon is a little simplier and easier, but you're a lot more limited for space and range, and you give up the node. I tend to think it's a matter of which side you can more easily reach.
Maus hive looks to have the easist siege spots, and even then the short tight space makes for some hectic brawls, and the vent system means you will be attacked from all sides. Similar to the siege on Satcomm with more alien friendly vents, or if you can picture it the siege north of Omega on Altair. Meanwhile having to deal with a node that provides cover for the hive.
Angel's grave is interesting because it looks so easy to siege at first glance. So far my luck has been spotty on it. I tend to think the Angel died because it tried sieging the hive.
Sieging from the north edge of the range looks really appealing at first, but the range is exreme and you end up having to build in the open in a high ceilinged room where you can be fairly easily flanked. It's only real advantage is how close to marine start this area is. The aliens have great cover while approaching you however and I'll probably avoid it in the future.
Sieging it from the south looks slightly better after some review. I've tried a few times, taking the node south of the hive, pg by node, tfac at the top of the slope. This seems to give a decent range while providing a halfway defendable position. There are some definite downsides to going up a slope to reach the tfac, and having a high room with vents for gorge bile behind you isn't a thrill either. This isn't quite sieging sewer hive, but it's sure not fun.
In all, I think this may replace Tanith as my favorite map.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't meant that I'm no longer interested in what everyone else has to say, mind <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
The middle path seems to give you ready access to everything, so it doesn't seem to take too long to get anywhere. It's early yet but I'm not sure I buy that idea of too big.
Anyway, a moment while I point out that I'm the fellow Niteowl mentioned and quoted. It seems I did know my password so...viola!
I had a couple key things to mention.
1: The console near the chair is a royal pain. A smart comm wants to be on top of that so he can move any direction or shoot when he pops out. However the slope is a little to steep to make that easy. I like the object in general but smooth it out some so a comm can make use of it instead of being cut off from his whole base, please.
2: The elevator connecting MS to the centeral area...Well maybe elevator isn't the right word. Call it a lift. Anyway, with three marines on it, it was bouncing back without completing it's run and or dumping marines off. I like the concept, but it should probably be cleaned up so you can get 6-8 marines on it easily. Unless the intent was to break the marines up and leave them exposed...in which case you're an evil person and I would suggest the game balance would not benefit from your actions and leave it be.
I wasn't personally on the lift at the time, so I can't say exactly what caused it but it was three marines I know fairly well and two of them were just...pushed off the back of the lift. The first time I think one of them was too far forward and hit an object of some sort.
Hmmm...Random thought. Perhaps a glowing forcefield in place of the list, one with a nice timer on it of 15 seconds or so...Oh well.
At first i thought "hmm, people are just afraid of new maps, machina is fine", but after having some games on the map, i have to say some of them are right about the gameplay. I don't want to see machina going to trash so i'll try to provide you with some, i hope useful feedback, area-by-area. I'll start with the north-east part of the map and will probably split this into two or more posts or it's gonna be too long to write in one go.
Marine start: Is fine. TMMDarwin is right about that central console though. I'd say just delete it, there would be enough consoles/computers/screens left to keep it looking good and it'll provide more space to build a base with less cluttering.
Barren: Is fine. Enough cover on ceilings etc, clean area. The two differents levels where you can walk even make this area interesting gameplay-wise. Keep it.
Inner barren: Looks good but, and it's not the only area in machina with this problem: diagonal access. As much as i love the creative use of diagonals in a map for a change, this is hurting navigation intuitivity in my opinion. By walking in there and when you get to the, huhh, "central round computers" you're thinking "humm, where is north again?". Cause of that, the map is harder to learn. Pardon my bad english but i think you'll get what i mean. I think just changing those two diagonal corridors and replacing them with a 90° standard corridor, or two, would do the trick without needing too much changes.
Central node descent: Is ugly <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Well *i* don't like it. Layout-wise, i also don't like how you can see into snake body trough the red texture, but have to go a long way back to actualy get there if you don't have a jetpack. It's confusing. Perhaps closing the wall between the two areas completely and adding a standard vent from where you can't see snakes body would solve this.
Snake's head: Diagonal. Coupled with the round stuff in snake's body & tail, this is a very confusing area for navigation as well. About the very fast door you have there; before looking at it in commander mode, i could swear it was a fast <i>lift</i>. Then i realised floors were at the same level. It's cause of the two "big walls/doors" moving very fast i think. Replacing those two walls/doors with others doors that have the same height as the entrances would probably help so ground-level marines realize it's just a security door, not a lift. Lastly by looking at the minimap, it looks like you can go from Ceti noon to the Pit wich is also confusing.
Snake's body, snake's tail: <3. Amazing. Finest piece of mapping i've ever seen. If you ever remove that i'd kill you <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> However, i've seen many people searching for the other entrance to tau ceti hive, completely ignoring the lift leading to the pit/ceti rising and ending up in crater south instead, near the mausoleum hive. This whole east part of the map is, again, very confusing imo.
Ceti Noon: Diagonal... Area looks good but imo you just should turn snake's head and ceti noon 45° clockwork way for the sake of easier navigation/intuitivity/learning of the map/layout, etc.
That is all for my feedback about the north-east part of the map. Time is running short, and i've got a lot to say about the other areas as well so it'll probably be tomorrow before i can give you more feedback. At first i was gonna say; "just take the three hives, the MS, circumn, the whole "snake part", ante/crater south, and make a whole new map layout"... But after thinking a while about it; i got convinced machina is "fixable" as it is. It's gonna need lot of work, and it's gonna be a challenge but it's not impossible. I wish you good luck and i hope this helps somehow. Please let me know if it doesn't, so i'll spend more time working on co_minas instead of staring at ns_machina! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I'll try and reply to these comments piece by piece.....
TMMDarwin first!
The command console: I've been poked already to do something about this, and as a result the middle map-made-console is removed. However, also the CC has been moved to where the resource tower is and the resource tower is now where the CC used to be. I can foresee some possible problems with this, such as if an alien is munching on it then a marine has to first climb up to the upper-level to get a shot off. I could rectify this somewhat with a mini-lift up to the CC, if you think it might be a problem (ever had problems with skulks munching on the res node in the current build?)
The bizarre lift: Is no longer a rotating one, but a func_train that moves in a sorta jerky circle. This should fix the problems with it reversing direction, killing people, breaking, etc. Alternatively I could remove the lift altogether and replace it with some stairs, which would really make everyones life a lot easier if less cool.
One thing I have considered is removing access via this completely until either marines a) have jetpacks or b) weld something at that end of the chasm. This would force marines to go either west or east at the start of the game, and perhaps lessen some of the confusion. Or else it could be a jetpack route only and just be a very elaborate vent <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
onto Droggog's post...
Inner Barren: I appreciate that this area is somewhat confusing as I actually find myself getting confused when coming across that middle 'pillar'. It's good to hear it confirmed by someone. Rather than messing with the connections in that area, I'm more interested in adding some sort of visual cue to aid players with their navigation - I think possibly the problem lies not in the layout of the area, but that the two ways around the pillar are shrouded in darkness and so not immediately obvious.
Central Node Descent: Agreed its not as pretty as some of the other areas of the map. If I have the time I'll try and do something about that, but otherwise I'm alright with it - not every section of the map has to look great against each other (consider it pepper seasoning ^_^). The red grates will not be shootable-through in the next build.
A change I made just last night is to connect CnD with Snakes Tail. That should fix the problem you suggested; it makes that whole area feel much more accessible.
Snakes Head: The trouble with making the doors the same height as the room is that there would be no period during its opening where both doors are fully sealing the middle. The next build will have these doors invisible to the commander.
[edit] Something I just did is to introduce a very thin gap in the middle of the door, so they can be seen through - that should help people realise it's a way to go and not just scenery.
Ceti Noon: I'm not very convinced that it's worth the effort of making this corridor 90 degrees - it would make the path longer, change the siege dynamics, require a hell of a lot of tweaking....for the gain I don't think it's worth it - people will get used to it.
However, this reminds me of something that's been on my mind for a long time, and that's some sort of visual cue to let players know when they're entering an area that leads predominantly to a hive room, even on a subconcious level. EG a simple symbol on the outside of the security door, and in various other places in the map so that after a while this symbol becomes associated with being near the hive areas. Obviously it can't be a symbol of the hive as I don't think the inhabitants of the ship really harboured their very own Kharaa pets for fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> But something simple and recognisably different from everything else - a pure cyan blue circle for example.
Snakes Body/tail & The Pit: Thanks for the compliment, I'm very happy with this corridor too! (From a visual perspective).
I too found that I would look at that lift and not feel inclined <i>in the slightest</i> to go down there. That, and coupled with someone earlier saying that I should replace the lifts with slopes, led me to decide that it's a serious blockage in the flow of the map. Initially I designed it that way so as to 'seperate' the east-portion of the map from the rest, to make it feel like it was its own section, but in practice it just doesn't seem conducive to gameplay. So, that lift has been ripped out and replaced with a very long slope, that falls down when you're halfway down and dumps you onto a rollercoaster ride of run into a steaming pit of lava...but not before passing a montage of kharaas in top hats and monacles laughing and pointing their callous nails at you. Okay, so its just a long slope, but if you have a good memory and imagination you can pretend that's what happens and consider it an easter egg ^_^
I'm pretty sure that part of the reason people vote a different map immediately is due to the readyroom. They associate the crappy look and lack of consideration with the map in general and so don't even bother giving it a chance, which is actually nto a bad thing because it means when I do have a proper readyroom they might consider actually giving the map a chance again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I hope that the map doesn't require as much work as you suggest - I have other engagements that I'm very anxious to get on with and machina is holding me back somewhat. As dirty as it sounds, I'm looking for quick fixes to problems but sometimes quick fixes are more effecient than complex ones.
With a bit of creative thinking I'm sure there are easy solutions to most of the map's problems, that is, I think many of the problems are things that <i>aren't</i> there rather than things that are.
Thankyou again for your efforts! They are greatly, greatly appreciated.
While I'm posting I can show this off - the now-detailed Turning Point:
<img src="http://www.archwolf.net/merkaba/ns_machina_recovery0000.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
The current MS layout allows for smart base placement. Now, I'm a placement maniac, but every comm should be.
The space my the node is...too high compared to the rest of the room and that narrow catwalk would leave very little room for good placement.
[Good placement is tall stuff in corners flat stuff in the middle and nothing anywhere near the chair, and we really shouldn't digress in to a debate about this, but it's just a good idea to allow for this sort of placement even if someone were for some reason not planning on using.]
The IPs should be as far from the chair as possible and slightly spread out. About 30 degress of arc on the CC range cone works best. The phase gate goes between those and just a bit further out and the armory goes across from that against the wall, in an ideal placement. The Proto goes near the Armory. The obs and Arms lab can be most anywhere but should have a clear LOS from the chair so the comm can pop out and deal with minor annoyances.
That way the gear from the armory and proto can be placed between the ips and pg. So, you spawn, rush the pg and phase, picking up any needed gear as you go. Meanwhile clear LOS tot he other structures allows you to quickly deal with something munching. Idealy you shouldn't be in base formore than 1 second while spawning/pahsing during a siege, and this includes pistoling the skulk off the wall.
The fear I have from what you've described would be having the ips/armory/pg too far apart and the range to the other structures could make LMG fire difficult. I'd have to see it. And don't forget the idea of someoen finding away behind a structure. Suddenly you have to run across the whole room to save it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
That and the whole laymight might encourage bad placement.
Anyway, them's me thoughts! Like I said, having not seen the specifics it's hard to say.
Edit: No, no problems with the current node being chewed on or anyone noticing I have an obs over by it to spot in to crater.
I've seen many alien games lost by the fade falling into those holes. Some may say you need to get use to the map and play carefully and smart around the holes but what those people fail to realize is that the game was balanced without these random things included. Removing these random events is the job of PTs why do they spend so much time removing stuck spots and the like. Simple, maps shouldnt destroy a balanced game to the extent a stuck spot or hole of death does. It is hard enough to balance this game please dont include anything else to mess it up.
The death holes will be the main reason why this map goes the way of ns_bast or ns_mineshaft by being an interesting and pretty map but rarely played.
I'm putting ledges along the sides of the pit low down, so that if someone DOES fall they at least can try and land on a ledge so as to get back up again. There's no way I am going to remove the pit entirely just to satisfy people - if no other method works then I will just have to accept the maps fate.
However, ledges down near the bottom will act as a safety net to fades and jetpackers. If that doesn't stop people complaining then there's nothing more I believe can do.
I know this is almost directly in contrast to some of my previous statements (not in this thread) where I mentioned machina was a 'hard' map, but if such a small change can stop people from votemapping as soon as machina comes on then there's no reason to not pursue it.
You might consider some sort of "Garbage Chute Warning DO NOT ENTER" texture <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
A map <i>should</i> punish <i>mistakes.</i> Jumping into a giant pit-o-doom is a mistake. People love to blame their death on the map though. It's right up their beside "omg lagger" (which I saw Darwin accused of while playing this map the other night, which is funny because the guy never noticed my ping BUT I DIGRESS) Where was I?
Oh right, the learning curve.
-I did find that the pit area to have me go in circles a couple times. I've corrected this issue in my head now, but I can see why: The lifts simply weren't <i>obviously</i> lifts. You slap a couple of railing looking things on top of them and BAM, I bet people will go "ahh, a way up". (Like in Cargo in Hera) A switch nearby could do it too. Have them not flush with the ground so much. Maybe some kind of mechanical-looking tracks that it follows, suggesting that it moves upwards.
-Then, when you do get up top, and you start moving along up cold bath towards snake head area, you fall down, and find yourself in the pit again... took me a couple times to go "oh, switch brings the lift down so -that I can go up!" I now really like this little setup, but in the intrests of helping other nubbins not hurt their little heads like I did, something different might not hurt here. Maybe have the lift default simply to the down position? Getting to the pit is easy and intuitive,but getting to the snakes body would be helped greatly by this. Also, I suspect it would help the flow, I imagine.
-Another area that had me in circles was the node near northern shell. It is pretty dark in that area, plus, the minimap doesn't show that you can't walk straight to that node, but have to go in a sort of a spiral to get at it. I think a spotlight to light up the path as you turn left into it's little cranny would help (when coming from the north. Nothing special, just sort of "light the way". (As it is, I wanted to go right and up further when I had sort of passed it.)
-Going up to barren. Going into why it is confusing, I think first of all, the (labelled) minimap doesn't show that it's a figure-8 sort of a route. And then, the floor texture kind of leads you around in a circle when you first enter it. I'm thinking maybe a texture light strip (like around the floor inside inner barren) that sort of "leads" you down through the section would help. The "main" route is lit up, so people can easily find their way through, but the little alley ways are still dark and ready for discovery.
-This is me going onto what you were asking about in terms of "symbols" and such. When learning a map, people tend to "go into the light" so to speak. I know, if I'm lost, I go and find my bearings where I can see well. (This is likely why people complain about the darkness in some maps.) Maybe use a scrolling texture like in hera's readyroom? Also, when getting near hives, maybe use a bit more infestation. For example, when going from cold bath to ceti rising, maybe a couple tendrils of infestation to indicate that "the hive is this way". Then people can just instinctively, without opening their minimaps know they are getting close. As far as a blue circles would go, that's not the natural colour... I'd use it to indicate the direction to marine start! The symbol should probably be a yellowish colour so people can make the connection in their heads. (Even yellowish lighting like what turning point had for example.)
-As far as the pits-o-doom are concerned, I can see people learning to live with them. I mean, if the giant crater didn't clue you in, when you fall a couple times, you learn to watch your step. It's going to happen. I'd say that the Imine Falls area (appropriately named) is going to be the most dangerous area, really because the little holes and the tight quarters fighting for a siege location (?) but I mean, again, once ya learn that there are little holes of doom there, you'll remember that. And Crater itself, it looks open and clear enough that you can see where you're going so you shouldn't go blinking off the walkway accidently. Honestly, if you fell off the map on cs_vertigo, you'll fall off here.
--
Anyway, all in all, I'm not sure I can give some constructive feedback in terms of how it plays, yet as I've only had two games on it thus far. But some ideas here anyway! I can safely say at this point, I think I'd be quite comfortable with this version now that I know it a bit better. I agree that quick fixes and subtle tweaks can make it better... but a major overhaul, this map needs not. Well, until everyone has more games under their belts anyway.