<!--quoteo(post=1575785:date=Nov 11 2006, 01:43 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lofung @ Nov 11 2006, 01:43 AM) [snapback]1575785[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i guess this is very much the reason why people wanna get rid of the comm and replace it with a program. u need cs. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont want to get rid of the comm >_< and im talking about pcw's here where you should know your team and what theyre doing just by checking the minimap, the comm shouldnt really need to micromanage every marine all this will do is make it harder to hear skulks.
For public its the opposite due to the majority of the players being just average or worse so the comm must give more detailed orders.
<!--quoteo(post=1575794:date=Nov 11 2006, 02:42 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Nov 11 2006, 02:42 AM) [snapback]1575794[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Those 1 or 2 good fades and a lerk you'll need to take the alien round can learn it in co.
The comm and 3 or 4 teamworking marines with mediocore aim you'll need for winning the marine round can only learn in pcws.
Sure I've learned the basics of marine play and strategy in pubs, but I can't see everyone doing the same.
No matter how solid the aim is, marines actually need to take the point while aliens can just build 2 rts, have someone to munch marine rts and sit back until fades and then again until the 2nd hive goes up.
With more clans, the skill difference inside clans wouldn't be so huge, meaning there wouldn't be so many of those alien rounds getting carried by the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I kind of agree here, most people have abit of aim when they start playing and its often enough to kill someone else thats just as new but is playing alien. But its alot easier to learn to play alien, you can write a tutorial on how to alien and different techniques like bunnyjumping but you cant write a tutorial on how to aim it just takes lots of time to get better aim(unless youre naturally talented). This makes the game marine biased at low skill, alien biased at medium skill and pretty even at high skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1576152:date=Nov 12 2006, 07:53 AM:name=Solitario)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Solitario @ Nov 12 2006, 07:53 AM) [snapback]1576152[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As far as I can see the metabolize of fades should be decreased a little bit. Then the gameplay would be more balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i would like to see metabolize only regenerate adren and not health making regen more viable and cara less, but i dont think this would make a noticeable impact on balance.
We have a nice 8v8 server filled with above-average-but-not-quite-clan-level players, and the game is wonderfully balanced for us. Almost every game comes down to who showed the better teamwork. Marines and aliens both win about the same amount. We even have a handful of clan-level uber-skilled players, and while everyone is a little happier to be on the same team with them, they CAN be beaten by the less skilled team, so long as they use some strategy and teamwork.
The incredible depth of strategy and teamwork available in NS is what keeps people coming back to it 4 years later, even if we've never managed to hit on perfect balance. But if you really think Marines are too weak, apparently Aliens are about to take a pretty big hit in 3.2. We'll just have to see what balance looks like after that.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I'll have to admit the OldF and the TacticalGamer servers have a much biger share of balanced games than servers like G4B2S or the <BAD> Innocent until proven guilty.
Both OldF and TG have BS 0 and teams of 8, and the fun factor there is usually lots more than other servers. I wondser if that's the cause of the fun and balance or just a correlation.
The only way I can think of to make it so alien mistakes are less forgiving is to fing a way to install some kind of res upkeep. The marines must bleed for all the meds and ammo (especially meds), and it can be hard to get marines thru lerk gas while upgrading and handing out weapons and such. Maybe if you healspray an alien the alien that got healed will lose one res every 7 healsprays or so? Or maybe have the healspray be dependant on the lifeform? Gorges can spray themselves for free. This might slow the aliens down a bit as they either have to place field DCs or run back to the hive. Eh, this idea will probably be shot down due to some sort of balance problem the top clanners will spot, but I think the problem of aliens just being able to save up all that res should be dealt with. Aliens have no upkeep, while marines have huge upkeep.
the other thing I want ot try is to remove R4K from the game, but that's for another thread.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
they don't have to, but finding a way to make aliens have some sort of upkeep would help with the problem of aliens being able to save up that much res and still be competitive. The comm can't expect to skimp on meds and ammo and still have his marines do well. Aliens don't have to spend any res outside of lifeofrms and structures.
Jigglypuff's NS Jigglyroom (ping issues when full aside), has a great number of vets (<i>almost</i> clan level) that I enjoy playing with. I'm a reg there along with many other NS vets, and the games have been balanced as long as the teams arent stacked. That having been said, I really don't see how aliens would get the upper hand in the upper echlons of skill. I mean, if the marines have aim, they should be able to win <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1577966:date=Nov 16 2006, 04:19 PM:name=Church)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Church @ Nov 16 2006, 04:19 PM) [snapback]1577966[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> they don't have to, but finding a way to make aliens have some sort of upkeep would help with the problem of aliens being able to save up that much res and still be competitive. The comm can't expect to skimp on meds and ammo and still have his marines do well. Aliens don't have to spend any res outside of lifeofrms and structures. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well the teams are meant to be different from each other, and the current system is working fine so theres no need for changes of this scale
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Then give aliens a slower res flow at the 6v6 level (on the other hand, leave 12v12 unchanged or maybe even a slight increase in flow for aliens). I feel aliens get res too quickly for marines to research decent counters to.
As for the Jigglypuff server, what times ar you playing at? Not to bash the server or anything, since it has amazing ping, but I haven't seen too many clan-level people that. People there can't seem to match up to the players of OldF or even Tactical gamer, in my experience. I could just have been unlucky in my timing, of course.
A while back in the Servers forum there were posts of server logs. Well, a summary of server logs to determine how often one wins over the other and such. StonkingByte just did one on OldF's servers and they pretty much came out even. Incidently, MC > SC > DC as first chamber compared to winning the match.
(small games and bot games were excluded)
PS ty for the kind words Church PPS yes, TG is pretty sweet too! PPSS Wycrack is a CRAAAAZY comm.
I love some of these references to old school teams/players. Different versions, different game and different era....Get with the times, basing your claims on players that havent played in over a year.....Even when a few of these players did comeback their individual presence went unnoticed.
If the marines get owned early (first minute) its almost always over.
In 3.1 most high-level matches resulted in marine ties. In 3.2 marines received numerous buffs (or alien nerfs whatever, same difference). The issue is not that the game is unbalanced, the issue here is that you are bad at the game.
Aliens are/were simply easier to win with a low skilled team.
Comments
i guess this is very much the reason why people wanna get rid of the comm and replace it with a program. u need cs.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont want to get rid of the comm >_< and im talking about pcw's here where you should know your team and what theyre doing just by checking the minimap, the comm shouldnt really need to micromanage every marine all this will do is make it harder to hear skulks.
For public its the opposite due to the majority of the players being just average or worse so the comm must give more detailed orders.
<!--quoteo(post=1575794:date=Nov 11 2006, 02:42 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Nov 11 2006, 02:42 AM) [snapback]1575794[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Those 1 or 2 good fades and a lerk you'll need to take the alien round can learn it in co.
The comm and 3 or 4 teamworking marines with mediocore aim you'll need for winning the marine round can only learn in pcws.
Sure I've learned the basics of marine play and strategy in pubs, but I can't see everyone doing the same.
No matter how solid the aim is, marines actually need to take the point while aliens can just build 2 rts, have someone to munch marine rts and sit back until fades and then again until the 2nd hive goes up.
With more clans, the skill difference inside clans wouldn't be so huge, meaning there wouldn't be so many of those alien rounds getting carried by the fade.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of agree here, most people have abit of aim when they start playing and its often enough to kill someone else thats just as new but is playing alien.
But its alot easier to learn to play alien, you can write a tutorial on how to alien and different techniques like bunnyjumping but you cant write a tutorial on how to aim it just takes lots of time to get better aim(unless youre naturally talented).
This makes the game marine biased at low skill, alien biased at medium skill and pretty even at high skill.
As far as I can see the metabolize of fades should be decreased a little bit. Then the gameplay would be more balanced.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would like to see metabolize only regenerate adren and not health making regen more viable and cara less, but i dont think this would make a noticeable impact on balance.
The incredible depth of strategy and teamwork available in NS is what keeps people coming back to it 4 years later, even if we've never managed to hit on perfect balance. But if you really think Marines are too weak, apparently Aliens are about to take a pretty big hit in 3.2. We'll just have to see what balance looks like after that.
Both OldF and TG have BS 0 and teams of 8, and the fun factor there is usually lots more than other servers. I wondser if that's the cause of the fun and balance or just a correlation.
The only way I can think of to make it so alien mistakes are less forgiving is to fing a way to install some kind of res upkeep. The marines must bleed for all the meds and ammo (especially meds), and it can be hard to get marines thru lerk gas while upgrading and handing out weapons and such. Maybe if you healspray an alien the alien that got healed will lose one res every 7 healsprays or so? Or maybe have the healspray be dependant on the lifeform? Gorges can spray themselves for free. This might slow the aliens down a bit as they either have to place field DCs or run back to the hive. Eh, this idea will probably be shot down due to some sort of balance problem the top clanners will spot, but I think the problem of aliens just being able to save up all that res should be dealt with. Aliens have no upkeep, while marines have huge upkeep.
the other thing I want ot try is to remove R4K from the game, but that's for another thread.
they don't have to, but finding a way to make aliens have some sort of upkeep would help with the problem of aliens being able to save up that much res and still be competitive. The comm can't expect to skimp on meds and ammo and still have his marines do well. Aliens don't have to spend any res outside of lifeofrms and structures.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well the teams are meant to be different from each other, and the current system is working fine so theres no need for changes of this scale
As for the Jigglypuff server, what times ar you playing at? Not to bash the server or anything, since it has amazing ping, but I haven't seen too many clan-level people that. People there can't seem to match up to the players of OldF or even Tactical gamer, in my experience. I could just have been unlucky in my timing, of course.
(small games and bot games were excluded)
PS ty for the kind words Church
PPS yes, TG is pretty sweet too!
PPSS Wycrack is a CRAAAAZY comm.
If the marines get owned early (first minute) its almost always over.
Aliens are/were simply easier to win with a low skilled team.
<i>edit - lol at jmms CSS terminology <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /></i>