Marines too weak?
BiG-Serge
Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58112Members
Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58112Members
In the <a href="http://ansl.us" target="_blank">http://ansl.us</a> league, team BiG has scrimmed against team Xensity and team SSJ. Every game played, results were fairly similar, marines lose, aliens win. We've played something like 12games, every round was won by the alien team.
Conclusion: Marines suck unless they are shotgun rushing, in a shotgun rush, marines have a 70% chance of winning, time to sg rush every single round in competitive play now, gg.
UN-NERF MARINES PLZ.
Conclusion: Marines suck unless they are shotgun rushing, in a shotgun rush, marines have a 70% chance of winning, time to sg rush every single round in competitive play now, gg.
UN-NERF MARINES PLZ.
Comments
it comes down to what each team does, and how well they place their teams.
IE rather be sulk leap with focus, then rein with shotty.
The feeling of unbalance arises from the extremely rapid change of prospects during the game. For example, marines can be working along well. Say they've capped res and one hive, getting upgrades, etc... Then, they decide to take on the second hive which by this point is going up quickly. They set up a PG, TF and some turrets in a nearby access to support the assault. They try to hold the position until they are strong enough/close enough to siege. Then some fades come along and take all that stuff down. . . The game is probably over -- aliens will now have 2 hives and its only a matter of time before the marines are eaten. This outcome DOES NOT mean that NS is unbalanced, only that there is a very tight set of constraints on a successful plan of action. If marines falter and don't regain their initiative quickly, they will never recover.
So, I feel it does come back to the skill of the comm and the team. In the case of the marines, these skills must be both collective (following orders, communicating and working together) AS WELL as individual (commander must have a great plan and skills to execute it). Aliens on the other hand don't need as many collective skills. A skillful individual fade player can effect the defeat discussed above. Anyway... thats my 2 cents.
It's not to say that the balance is bad.
The issue is player skill. And while skills in upper level NS might be similar, in pubs, skill difference is so vast, you'll see players with 56-4 scores that generate tons of res for their team.
While maybe in those clan games, alien players are strong, in G4B2S or [BAD] 30 player servers, marines win nearly every game.
I believe the reason is as marines get stronger, they still do the same thing: aim, build stuff, etc. As aliens get stronger, they need to change form into... the FADE. And the fade's learning curve is off the roof, thanks to blink. And while marines keep their upgrades, aliens however, lose their form once they die.
You have to look at it as, "Did the alien team lose because they simply weren't good?" or "Did the alien team lose because they did not know how to fade well?"
Balance doesn't exist in NS.
It's not to say that the balance is bad.
The issue is player skill. And while skills in upper level NS might be similar, in pubs, skill difference is so vast, you'll see players with 56-4 scores that generate tons of res for their team.
While maybe in those clan games, alien players are strong, in G4B2S or [BAD] 30 player servers, marines win nearly every game.
I believe the reason is as marines get stronger, they still do the same thing: aim, build stuff, etc. As aliens get stronger, they need to change form into... the FADE. And the fade's learning curve is off the roof, thanks to blink. And while marines keep their upgrades, aliens however, lose their form once they die.
You have to look at it as, "Did the alien team lose because they simply weren't good?" or "Did the alien team lose because they did not know how to fade well?"
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I agree. But by what you are saying, NS really <i>is</i> balanced. And my experience affirms this. I especially agree about fade. I've been a regular pubber since 1.04, and I only really started to learn to fade in 3.0 (of course, thats when I started playing more too).
What I mean by that is, a really skilled fade can save his resources and choose to become a fade on his own (and usually convince other players to cap res/build hives), where as a really skilled marine can't do much unless the comm properly equips him. The problem is, equipment doesn't always go to the best suited/most skilled marine unless the comm specifically drops it on a player, and often players with no idea what they're doing will end up with a JP & HMG or whatever. In that sense, a really skilled fade can choose himself and win a round for the aliens, but it takes the combination of a really skilled comm and marine to do the same for the marines.
Put another way, the aliens (to an extent) can choose what they're best at, and the marines have to fight for it.
The reason why aliens fare so badly in large games is because of resource distribution. The res you get from a node gets split up among all those players on the server, and it'd take a player significantly longer to fade in a large game, while marines are free to tech up. Also, pub skulks/lerks/fades are not cool, go play CO to learn or go gorge ftw.
Conclusion: Marines suck unless they are shotgun rushing, in a shotgun rush, marines have a 70% chance of winning, time to sg rush every single round in competitive play now, gg.
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You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
and are talking about pub play or comptetitive play here? competitive play is a 6 vs 6 isnt it? 6 aliens on a team makes for some pretty decent res per alien.
big serge, u losing 12 games in a row. couldnt it mean that your team was on a lower skill level for that day or maybe it was just the other team were more inclined to kharaa and your team was less inclined to marines?
<u><i><b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->AIM<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b></i></u> and teamwork.
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easyier said then done =]
Ok lets look at the current start game situation:
If a marine can aim "aimbotlike" he is capable of killing 4 skulks with a single mag, with ease. Then another 2 with the pistol. Makes 6 skulks, or the whole alien team.
So in order to kill a marine as a skulks in a 1 on 1 you are forced to ambush, or attack with a movement advantage (eg bhop) AND you depend heavily on the marine not killing you, before you can reach him.
This gives marines a huge advantage during the initial phase of a game: They, in theory, control the flow of the game, cause they have the advantage of initiative.
Now we throw in the fact, that humans cannot aim aimbotlike. So we have anything from a person, who needs a full lmg mag to kill a skulk, up to a good player, who kills an average of 3 skulks witheout reloading.
So the better people overall are getting, the more marines should dominate the beginning of a game.
Once the first fade shows up we have as usually 2 totally diffrent situations again: On a server, full with good players killing the fade is usually a priority, but killing the 2nd hive still stays the main goal most of the time, simply because a good 2nd hive fade can overpower la rines rather easily.
On a mixed pub, a good fade will simply cut through the rine team like a hot knife through butter, wereas a bad fade will die either early, or wont make any kills. Anyhow, a waste of 50 res.
<b>Point 1: NS heavily depends on players beeing around the same skill-level.</b>
Then there are lots of turning points in a game, like:
Killing the 2nd hive.
Killing the early fade.
Taking down the AM.
Rushing MS in order to stop a hive siege.
Taking out the rines siege at 2nd hive.
are just a few examples, but they have all one thing incommen: They all cose time and res for the enemy team. The 2 main ressources of NS, beside player skill.
<b>Point2: Who is winning can completely change within 20 seconds</b>
Then we have the current res system.
The more players, the less income pers second, per alien, meaing the 2nd hive or fades will get delayed alot. This used to be even worse and got adjusted in 3.1 /me thinks but it still has heavy impact. Everyone who has played with 16 or more players will shurely remeber the frustarting situation, when you loose at 7-8 minutes and had 3 players with around 48 res <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<b>Point3: The number of players doesnt only affect gameplay, it also affects: "Which team will win!"</b>
Then you have alot of disturbing factors, like bogus rates, that dont qualify as hacks, but make killing skulks extremely hard. And of course the improved configs and textures, that make hiding in the dark useless. And even witheout replacing textures, i am shure that at least 60% of all NS players are using "eye burning" gamma values in order to lighten up those dark corners.
<b>Point4: Winning is important to most, leading to stacking and looking for an advantage by modifying game paramteres in order to gain advantages over others. This of course causes imbalances.</b>
Considering that, I assume, most of those logged wins are from the competitive scene... I don't think it's just skill stack.
Though, I would say it's much easier to play marines than aliens, especially since no one I've seen has made a good Marine team bot, so training is not possible out of a real game or CO.
I've been on both sides... and I can appriciate the skill that goes into controlling the aliens... but I hate playing against those who're good at fading... Any other lifeform is decent.
(Lifeform: HP/AP (Effective HP @ Hive1/2/3 [Moot in the next version]) Bullets to kill [ignoring regen & @ W3]
Skulk: 70/10 (90/95/100) P: 4/4/4 LMG: 7/8/8 SG: "1/1/1" HMG: 4/4/4 GL: 1/1/1
Gorge: 150/50 (250/275/300) P: 10/11/12 LMG: 20/22/24 SG: "2/2/2" HMG: 10/11/12 GL: 2/2/2
Lerk: 125/30 (185/200/215) P: 8/8/9 LMG: 15/16/17 SG: "1/1/1" HMG: 8/8/9 GL: 2/2/2
Fade: 300/150 (600/675/750) P: 24/26/29 LMG: 47/52/58 SG: "3/4/4" HMG: 24/26/29 GL: 4/5/5
Onos: 700/600 (1900/2200/2500) P: 74/85/97 LMG: 147/170/193 SG: "9/10/12" HMG: 74/85/97 GL: 12/14/16
This of course ignores CoF, (especially in the SG's case...) Player accuracy, alien upgrades, and doesn't even touch on TtK.
But I think it shows just how fragile the aliens technically are. Even a base Hive 3 onos technically takes less than an HMG clip to kill... However, we all know that to be false due to at least innate regen, with the complicating factors of DC upgrades.
[To illustrate: HMG inflicts 200 points of damage per second, assuming full hit. Onos regain 14 HP during that same time. To rip through the innitial HP, it would take a little less than 12.5 seconds at H3, but during that time it would have regained 175 HP, prolonging it's life a little. In the case of Regen it would gain back 393.75 HP. Cara gives it an additional 600 effective HP, giving an extra 3 seconds and thusly 217 HP in regen.]
Faskilla posted while I was pulling the numbers for this.
Edit: My TtK numbers were severely off...
Uh, we didn't. You know you rotate teams after every round, right? And every alien win would put us at 6-6.
People who can kill 3 skulks per clip are either playing against bots or are aimbotting, also, I've never seen a skulk come at a marine alone, also, I haven't seen that many marines walking out alone.
SSJ and BiG are evenly matched when we don't have PoNeH playing, our strategies include teamwork and good aim on both sides (compared to other open league clans, it's hacks). If it was balanced, we'd have 6-6, but we'd have 3 marine wins each, at least 1 worst case scenario.
We definitely need to improve the little things as marines, that would at least grant us some marine wins against decent teams, but it doesn't change the fact that it's too hard to win as marine.
(I used to be able to kill three, occasionally even four skulks per clip... and at one point managed a 45 min lifespan waaaaay back when with a shotty. I have never touched a single optional setting in game, I play super freaking vanillia. So it's not just aimbots.)
There're maps that are pretty heavy for one side over the other... So, what were you guys playing on those games. (I assume it was two games per map...)
Now this doesnt really mean marines are too weak though, it's more complex than that.
A good fade needs nearly no teamwork to get kills while other lifeforms rely on their teammates much more. Cara fades have no problem blinking in a marine ambush with 3 shotties, delivering a hit and blinking out. Given all marines hit him 2 times, the fade still would be alive... And i always thought sgs are a counter to fades.
From a competitive point of view, marines need near-perfection to win. Even previously fatal alien mistakes such as an early lerk death or fade death doesn't mean the aliens won't win.
From a public view, e.g. 9v9 upwards, marines can't really lose because structure hitpoints don't scale. PG + beacon rush = hive down.
<b>Point 1: NS heavily depends on players beeing around the same skill-level.</b>
<b>Point2: Who is winning can completely change within 20 seconds</b>
<b>Point3: The number of players doesnt only affect gameplay, it also affects: "Which team will win!"</b>
<b>Point4: Winning is important to most, leading to stacking and looking for an advantage by modifying game paramteres in order to gain advantages over others. This of course causes imbalances.</b>
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Clear enough. I agree that these are all important to the perception of balance and fairness.
I'd also like to refute the claim that aim is more important than teamwork. If marines move together and watch each other's backs while others build then your team can succeed overall without superb aim skills.
What I like about NS is that the creators have kept to their original resource structure: Marines on the one hand have a completely hierarchical structure -- one person controls all the res and decisions. Aliens on the other hand are distributed -- each player controls a share of the res. Both perspectives have their advantages and disadvantages.
I'd also like to refute the claim that aim is more important than teamwork. If marines move together and watch each other's backs while others build then your team can succeed overall without superb aim skills.
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but there are times in the game when building is not enough, you have to start shooting things. and if you cannot keep that fade away from yourself or your teammates when you're inside a building hive it's pretty much gg, go back to ns:combat.
as for balance, it's true that marines are harder to win with. are they then weaker? no, if played right. you need a good comm and a good team for it, but hey this is a video game. what would you not do to be the best? just keep practicing as a solid group against good alien teams and you'll get a hang of the game in no time.
I'd love to see some hltv demos right now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
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Word.
This can be argued.
I've played countless games where fades and lerks have taken down packs of marines solo. And I've also had games where one marine got several SG shots and did the most damage to the fade.
But really, what is marine teamwork?
Do you have the alien teamwork like lerks umbraing, skulks parasiting or gorges healing? No. You just have more guys that aim at the same thing as you are.
So it comes down to a pack of marines that can't aim, or a few that can aim well and rambo. The larger pack ends up as more RFK for aliens, while the pack of few marines can nail a pg to the second hive.
We lost because killing one node for pressure was difficult enough, after it was down usually pressure went DEAD. Also, we couldn't get phase gates up at second hive by time.
Aim is just as important as teamwork, if you can't dish out enough damage to 4 skulks coming at a group of 3 marines, you're bound to lose a marine or two, that makes you screwed for the rest of the game. And that's exactly why NS is imbalanced, too much dependence on pressure team and they only get 1 shot.
In the <a href="http://ansl.us" target="_blank">http://ansl.us</a> league, team BiG has scrimmed against team Xensity and team SSJ. Every game played, results were fairly similar, marines lose, aliens win. We've played something like 12games, every round was won by the alien team.
Conclusion: Marines suck unless they are shotgun rushing, in a shotgun rush, marines have a 70% chance of winning, time to sg rush every single round in competitive play now, gg.
UN-NERF MARINES PLZ.
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Don't say marines are unbalanced until your marine team is actually any good. Your marine round is aaaaawful. So many mistakes and terrible aim. Me as <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" /> > Xen.
Even a base Hive 3 onos technically takes less than an HMG clip to kill...
Edit: My TtK numbers were severely off...
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lol just a bit <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
=] I didn't count the 2 xen rounds toward the 12games played.
Our marine round was only awful when we only had ###### players on, shoester, grimlin and jason mog are very bad. Good players joined up later, and my comm got unrusty.