<!--quoteo(post=1578907:date=Nov 19 2006, 10:33 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 19 2006, 10:33 PM) [snapback]1578907[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> A question I'd like to be answered is why isn't res rate scaled to player count? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is. RFK does exactly that.
Did you want RTs to just mysteriously pump res faster when more players join? Not only is that completely non-intuitive, but it only solves about half of the problems that RFK takes care of. It also creates new balance problems of its own.
<!--quoteo(post=1578937:date=Nov 20 2006, 08:38 AM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Nov 20 2006, 08:38 AM) [snapback]1578937[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It is. RFK does exactly that.
Did you want RTs to just mysteriously pump res faster when more players join? Not only is that completely non-intuitive, but it only solves about half of the problems that RFK takes care of. It also creates new balance problems of its own. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well not really....
Assuming that kills are evenly distributed among players, then aliens dont get more res from RFK per alien, but marines get a huge boost in their res pool. Now with more players there should usually be less need for meds, cause aliens have a much harder time connecting. So although the comm needs more res for ammo, you wont need as much for meds, resulting in a avoerall boost of marine eco.
In a real game RFK only benefits aliens in large games, if a single alien manages to kill 8-12 rines in the first 2 minutes. The problem is, that if you kill 4-6 rines in a 6vs6 you usuallly have already won, whereas in a big game it only means, that your fade/2nd hive will go up in time, maybe a little earlier.
RFK pretty much emphezasis the playercount problem, cause beside the fact, that the overall res system and the range over meeleweapon advantage heavily favours rines in big games, RFK does also help out rine eco.
To say it as a public player: RFK helps the 'stronger' team. Even if they don't save a single RT from going down and instead they camp at the spawnpoints, they got enough RFK. Has nothing to do with tactical decisions etc. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1578980:date=Nov 20 2006, 07:55 AM:name=SEK2000Blackhawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SEK2000Blackhawk @ Nov 20 2006, 07:55 AM) [snapback]1578980[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> To say it as a public player: RFK helps the 'stronger' team. Even if they don't save a single RT from going down and instead they camp at the spawnpoints, they got enough RFK. Has nothing to do with tactical decisions etc. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the skulks that ate the nodes can gest for chambers and a lerk and kill everything since the marines wont have upgrades or guns. take an 8v8 game for example. the marines would need to kill the entire alien team just to get enough rfk for a phase gate (not even including the res needed for obs, phase tech and the other pg). if you'd just do the math you'd realise rfk doesnt pay for everything the marines do
This is maybe true for CW's, as there are good players on both sides. Have even teams, and everything should be all right. But this isn't an ideal world....and publics aren't perfect both in skill and teamplay.
We need RFK because it accomplishes several things: - prevents hive from being dropped too late in larger games - allows higher lifeforms from being too late in larger games
So it's not how it's done, but what it accomplishes.
If someone were to find a way to remove RFK, yet have a system that allows the hives and forms to appear at times similar to 6v6 as in large games, then it should be applied.
I realize that having just RTs would not be the answer. The only solution I've come up with is to have the alien res system to work as the marines - which will never happen. So while I'm not happy with how RFK is done, it does solve some problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1578907:date=Nov 19 2006, 08:33 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 19 2006, 08:33 PM) [snapback]1578907[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> A question I'd like to be answered is why isn't res rate scaled to player count? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> IIRC, this has been a position of Flayra from a while ago. That is, he will not make the nodes scale according to the number of players. I'm not sure the reasoning on this.
<!--quoteo(post=1579159:date=Nov 20 2006, 11:50 PM:name=Niteowl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Niteowl @ Nov 20 2006, 11:50 PM) [snapback]1579159[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> IIRC, this has been a position of Flayra from a while ago. That is, he will not make the nodes scale according to the number of players. I'm not sure the reasoning on this. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he somewhere stated, that RFK was there in order to help the stronger team win faster.
I think the reason RFK makes bigger games work is that people <i>don't</i> get kills at the same rate. Some players will will have twice as many kills as others, and this is what allows the hive and fade to still be ready at about the same time without giving the aliens a huge amount of res. So, the game is currently balanced around the fact that aliens don't get res at equal rates, and if unequal res rates are needed, then RFK seems like a reasonable way to do it.
Pro<ul><li>Rewards good Players</li><li>Makes Players work as Team</li><li>forces to be Cautious</li></ul>
Con<ul><li>Rewards go for Aliens to best killing Persons with no noticeable Effect (a Fade won't devolve to gorge to drop an RT when he's on a Streak), while the whole Marine Team benefits from a Kill</li><li>Teamwork should be in it self an Reward: You simply stay alive longer</li><li>at least the lower Alien Liferforms should not need to be cautious, a Skulk <b><u><i>IS</b></u></i> a suicide unit after all, and the Lerk should be Viable as a Recon. The Gorge has to pay 10res a pop to reevolve</li></ul> Yes, this are the very same reasons from both sides. I prefer Alien as I dislike the Marine Gameplay, but Aliens with their noncentral Resource Management suffer twice as much as the Marines, because the Marines get the whole RFK in one Pot where the Comm pays his Stuff from vs Personal Purses. The Problem with this is, instead of keeping the Gameplay like it was, People addapt to the weaknesses of a System and start to Storm several camping Positions in the Maps, I have even seen a quite succesfull 30~45s Hiverush with rawly equal skilled Teams, where the RFK the Players gave the Commander was enough to keep them alive.
Basicly, you NEED to stop those Marines from locking the Alphahive, but as a Skulk you can't do s...nothing. Before RFK you could play the Role the Skulk was meant to play with no Problems, but when you today try to distract or disturb the Marine development, they easily benefit from it.
I'd say, RFK is only fair if the Marine, that has been Equipped and Trained with Money, gives Res when you kill him, and any Lifeform the Aliens posess doesn't give out anything. Wasn't it once this way till some EmoPancys screamed for RFK on both sides? Can't remember properly, but anyway, I put my Vote in removing the RFK alltogether and set my Bucks on automatic Scaling.
<b>More Players = More Res in Game</b>. The Numbers of the Derivation from the Basevalues would need to be extensively Playtested, but even that's better than RFK.
Scaling will only help marines, unless you scale research and build times to compensate.
RFK or not, good faders will always go fade and get 32-3 scores. The only way to change this is to change how the fade works period...
And I'd have to agree with you, marines just aren't fun to play. Since the job of the marine is always the same aiming, if you suck at it, then you're useless.
But if you're aliens and suck as fade, at least you can go gorge or onos and bypass the learning curve.
Scaling will only help aliens, unless you scale upgrade chambers and gestate times to compensate.
RFK or not, good marines will always go and get 32-3 scores. The only way to change this is to change how the marine works period...
And I'd have to agree with you, aliens just aren't fun to play. Since the job of the alien is always the same biting, if you suck at it, then you're useless.
But if you're marine and suck at aiming, at least you can go cap nodes or build structures and bypass the learning curve.
My only follow-up to that brilliant mirror is to point out that Onos is a highly skill-intensive class. If you're not really good at it, you probably just wasted 75 res, that would have been more effective even if you just spammed OCs in random spots on the map.
<!--quoteo(post=1579539:date=Nov 21 2006, 09:08 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Nov 21 2006, 09:08 PM) [snapback]1579539[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Scaling will only help aliens, unless you scale upgrade chambers and gestate times to compensate.
RFK or not, good marines will always go and get 32-3 scores. The only way to change this is to change how the marine works period...
And I'd have to agree with you, aliens just aren't fun to play. Since the job of the alien is always the same biting, if you suck at it, then you're useless.
But if you're marine and suck at aiming, at least you can go cap nodes or build structures and bypass the learning curve. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. Marines will get the same res flow regardless. Their upgrade speed will be the same. The only difference is the amount of weapons and armors that can be dropped. Aliens on the other hand would have their res split by the number of players on the team.
2. Yup. The day marines aren't only about aiming is the day NS becomes about teamwork.
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1579563:date=Nov 22 2006, 01:43 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 22 2006, 01:43 AM) [snapback]1579563[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 1. Marines will get the same res flow regardless. Their upgrade speed will be the same. The only difference is the amount of weapons and armors that can be dropped. Aliens on the other hand would have their res split by the number of players on the team.
2. Yup. The day marines aren't only about aiming is the day NS becomes about teamwork.
4. Cap nodes and build structures. So what's your gun for then?
So your point is?
And as for onos being skill-intensive, that's subjective. I'd say nothing tops the fade, but that's also subjective. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Flaming is inevitable here.
2. Your a moron and completely wrong. You can't rambo like in beta 5 anymore. If you played beta 5, or even remembered it, tehn you would know that there was no teamwork for marines in it. Please THINK before you say something like this. Its like saying, the day Halo isn't about aiming is the day Halo becomes teamwork.
3. Agree. Aliens doesn't seem repetitious for me.
4. You act as if you don't see aliens when you cap. Usually in scrimms, or even pubs the comms send the best known marines to cap nodes so they can have a decent res flow.
Summary: Smood, I really think you are taking this RFK business to far. Some of your points aren't even true.Although I agree RFK is totally random, its not a game-breaking thing and I think is fine as is.
<!--quoteo(post=1579537:date=Nov 22 2006, 12:03 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 22 2006, 12:03 AM) [snapback]1579537[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> RFK or not, good faders will always go fade and get 32-3 scores. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1579537:date=Nov 21 2006, 09:03 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 21 2006, 09:03 PM) [snapback]1579537[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RFK or not, good faders will always go fade and get 32-3 scores. The only way to change this is to change how the fade works period... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And by "change how the fade works" I guess you mean change how the whole game is played, in the same type of way that the game changed from 1.04 to 2.0, since the game currently depends on fades being the way they are for aliens to have a chance.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Your a moron and completely wrong. You can't rambo like in beta 5 anymore. If you played beta 5, or even remembered it, tehn you would know that there was no teamwork for marines in it. Please THINK before you say something like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I admit its been a while, but the last time I played there were still a lot of lone marines running around. Hell, even you admit that ramboing is part of the way things are done:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. You act as if you don't see aliens when you cap. Usually in scrimms, or even pubs the comms send the best known marines to cap nodes so they can have a decent res flow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And this is what I think SmoodCroozn is saying, that because a player can aim good, they can rambo and actually gain res for it, not only in nodes, but also with R4K (which pays for their medpacks when a random skulk does manage to get a bite in on his back just before he jumps and pulls a mid-air 180 and kills him). In other words, being good at aiming, so you can rambo, is <i>encouraged</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1579640:date=Nov 22 2006, 05:57 AM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 22 2006, 05:57 AM) [snapback]1579640[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> And this is what I think SmoodCroozn is saying, that because a player can aim good, they can rambo and actually gain res for it, not only in nodes, but also with R4K (which pays for their medpacks when a random skulk does manage to get a bite in on his back just before he jumps and pulls a mid-air 180 and kills him). In other words, being good at aiming, so you can rambo, is <i>encouraged</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> RFK encourages ramboing as much as it encourages teamwork. I fail to see the logical connection the two.
@xtcmen: I don't see what the point is in calling me a moron, but say as you wish. My experiences with games in NS have always been that the top marines run to the best spots in the map, say com core or keyhole in eclipse, attempt to lock it down and if successful, now play an inevitable victory.
@enigma: I never said it was bad, nor if would it matter if I did. I'm simply stating the facts. If I were to say, "Terrorists blew up some towers on 9/11", does that mean I'm supporting them? Think of me like a dictionary.
@im_lost: Exactly. With or without RFK, good fades and good marines will always get the majority of kills, with the current system as is. And again, I say this as a fact, not whether I like it or not.
@everyone: I'm lost here as to what your definition of teamwork is. If you mean sitting around with another guy, then I guess teamwork in NS is no different than a certain game involving terrorists. Or it's no different than massing a billion marines in Starcraft and winning, through numbers. Teamwork on marines is just another gun aiming at a skulk.
To me, teamwork has always been about being specialized in a certain area, yet having weaknesses in others. To me, teamwork is about gorges healing fades when they are too far from the hive. To me, teamwork is about skulks parasiting marines, so that gorges know when to make a run for it. To me, teamwork is about marines (finally), welding heavies, to keep them alive longer. To me... you get the idea.
Only when you have different strengths and weaknesses, does teamwork become vital. How much strategy would Starcraft have, if you could only make one unit? And this is the greatest irony of NS, the team that stands for teamwork, has no specialization, just whoever can aim the fastest. Aliens however have a diversity of roles that encourages different strengths or teamwork, although it's touted as the team about doing the job yourself.
While RFK somewhat solves the problem of less res in larger games, I believe we should keep open-minds for improvement.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teamwork = more kills and less deaths = more RFK for you, less for the enemy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats not really teamwork, because a good marine can do that on his own, and thanks to R4K he'll even get free medpacks.
Time for annother "back in 1.04...":
You traveled as a team to keep yourselves alive longer. See, there was no R4K so medpacks weren't free. if you ran off on your own and got bit, you'd either have to run back to base or die to get more health. See, no matter how many skulks you raped, you just werent worth the cost of a mepack because that res had to come from RTs, and if the com spent it on medpacks that meant waiting longer for an upgrade. Traveling in groups spread the damage around, and added more guns to the encounter. Additionally, in the late game you usually couldn't afford to give heavies to everybody, and especially not to the heavies who just got killed (though heavies were worth medpacks, because a fresh HA cost more). The heavies didn't get a bunch of res from mowing down skulks, you see. Teamwork then meant that the light marines traveled with the heavies to provide much needed welding, fade blocking, building, and ambush scouting, leaving the heavies free to kick ######.
That's not true, good commanders spammed more medpacks in 1.04 than in 3.1. This works simply because in 1.04 a single marine was a great deal more powerful than his hive one alien counterparts. The value of keeping marines on the field was great enough to overshadow even the advantages of weapon upgrades if it came to that.
Not until 3.0 were marines weak enough in comparison to hive one aliens that it might not be worth spending that much res on keeping them alive, rather than teching to increase the value of marines. Despite this it was still most often worth spending res on several bursts of medpacks in the hope of getting that RT that you NEEDED to get down to even stand a chance, regardless of your overall approach. The odd strategy being to conserve as much res as possible to tech early proto tech, something only a very few commanders chose to do and only as a last resort (comparable to a shotgun rush).
The reasons for spending lots of res on medpacks has varied (from the value of a single vanilla marine actually on the field being massive, to the need to make a dent in the alien economy being great enough that you basically had to force that one chance you had no matter the cost), but spending resources on medpacks has always been a priority. The correlation to RFK being introduced is very weak at best.
<!--quoteo(post=1579835:date=Nov 22 2006, 11:49 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 22 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]1579835[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Time for annother "back in 1.04...":
You traveled as a team to keep yourselves alive longer. See, there was no R4K so medpacks weren't free. if you ran off on your own and got bit, you'd either have to run back to base or die to get more health. See, no matter how many skulks you raped, you just werent worth the cost of a mepack because that res had to come from RTs, and if the com spent it on medpacks that meant waiting longer for an upgrade. Traveling in groups spread the damage around, and added more guns to the encounter. Additionally, in the late game you usually couldn't afford to give heavies to everybody, and especially not to the heavies who just got killed (though heavies were worth medpacks, because a fresh HA cost more). The heavies didn't get a bunch of res from mowing down skulks, you see. Teamwork then meant that the light marines traveled with the heavies to provide much needed welding, fade blocking, building, and ambush scouting, leaving the heavies free to kick ######. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats 2.0(1), cause god thats nothing like 1.0(4) at all <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1579817:date=Nov 22 2006, 05:53 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Nov 22 2006, 05:53 PM) [snapback]1579817[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> @xtcmen: I don't see what the point is in calling me a moron, but say as you wish. My experiences with games in NS have always been that the top marines run to the best spots in the map, say com core or keyhole in eclipse, attempt to lock it down and if successful, now play an inevitable victory.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry for calling you a moron, but that statement was just so wrong.
Lets get one thing out of the way... Vanilla marines > Vanilla aliens (before lerk goes up or upgrades)
Now with that being said, it is somewhat likely that 1 or 2 marines will run all the way to comm core, and not die before the lerk goes up, or chambers go up. If you rush phase tech, you will get a phase gate at around 1:30 - 2 minutes depending on how fast the obs goes up and other things. Usually, those marines should die after a well planned attack before the chambers go up because your main focus should be on those 1 or 2 marines setting up a phase gate.
Now you say marines run to the best spots in the map and lock it down successfully. I don't know where you play at, but I play at the TG server and this RARELY happens. It only happens when the teams are so stacked on marines and the comm is nub that they go for a two hive lockdown instead of spawn camping and ending the game.
The aliens must be very bad if 1 or 2 marines cross the map and set up a tfac and phase tech by themselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1579837:date=Nov 22 2006, 06:03 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Nov 22 2006, 06:03 PM) [snapback]1579837[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's not true, good commanders spammed more medpacks in 1.04 than in 3.1. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its been a long time, but from what I recall they NEVER dropped a med for one guy. Heavy trains approaching the hive? Oh hell yeah. A group of light armors? Maybe.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This works simply because in 1.04 a single marine was a great deal more powerful than his hive one alien counterparts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, I don't recall it that way at all. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I recall that lone marines nearly always lost to a skulks. Only in a group were marines a match for skulks. They way I recall, aliens had the advantage at the begining, then marines did after a few upgrades, then aliens after hive2+fade, then even-ish whenmarines got heavies. Maybe alien players on the servers I played on were alot better than average (the experienced players there did seem to prefer aliens), but I specifically remember being able to take down lone marines most of the time, and I can't be called skilled by any definition that exists. Maybe its a difference in number of players? The servers I played on were almost always 24+ (the only way to play, really).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The value of keeping marines on the field was great enough to overshadow even the advantages of weapon upgrades if it came to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now I'm finding it hard to believe that we're even talking about the same version. More than once I heard a commander tell a player to just die if he wanted more health. Commanders that were experienced regs and winners, not just random comms.
BTW people, its COMP core. You know, COMPuter core.
<!--quoteo(post=1579835:date=Nov 22 2006, 06:49 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 22 2006, 06:49 PM) [snapback]1579835[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Thats not really teamwork, because a good marine can do that on his own, and thanks to R4K he'll even get free medpacks. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good marines with teamwork do it even better, and just because the marine is alone doesnt mean its not teamwork. To me ramboing is a part of this whole teamwork thing(depending on the situation). You put pressure off the guys building and force the aliens to fight in an area of your choice, a dead alien cant kill your restowers or cappers. Its tactical, its teamwork and its useful so it wont change with the removal of RFK.
How is moving together with someone more teamwork? for example on tanith would it be more teamplay on my side if i walked with 3 other guys into cargo from dbl than if i moved through chem-acidic and got to the ambushpositions in cargo from behind? I wouldnt call moving with someone else teamwork untill you move in tactical formations etc but that wont happen since it takes so much practice not even clans do it, moving with others in a big lump like on public is just an effective way of blocking eachother.
<!--quoteo(post=1579854:date=Nov 22 2006, 09:08 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 22 2006, 09:08 PM) [snapback]1579854[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Again, I don't recall it that way at all. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I recall that lone marines nearly always lost to a skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> good marines were imba, they could bunnyjump backwards faster than walkerskulks move forwards.
Comments
A question I'd like to be answered is why isn't res rate scaled to player count?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is. RFK does exactly that.
Did you want RTs to just mysteriously pump res faster when more players join? Not only is that completely non-intuitive, but it only solves about half of the problems that RFK takes care of. It also creates new balance problems of its own.
It is. RFK does exactly that.
Did you want RTs to just mysteriously pump res faster when more players join? Not only is that completely non-intuitive, but it only solves about half of the problems that RFK takes care of. It also creates new balance problems of its own.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well not really....
Assuming that kills are evenly distributed among players, then aliens dont get more res from RFK per alien, but marines get a huge boost in their res pool. Now with more players there should usually be less need for meds, cause aliens have a much harder time connecting. So although the comm needs more res for ammo, you wont need as much for meds, resulting in a avoerall boost of marine eco.
In a real game RFK only benefits aliens in large games, if a single alien manages to kill 8-12 rines in the first 2 minutes.
The problem is, that if you kill 4-6 rines in a 6vs6 you usuallly have already won, whereas in a big game it only means, that your fade/2nd hive will go up in time, maybe a little earlier.
RFK pretty much emphezasis the playercount problem, cause beside the fact, that the overall res system and the range over meeleweapon advantage heavily favours rines in big games, RFK does also help out rine eco.
To say it as a public player: RFK helps the 'stronger' team. Even if they don't save a single RT from going down and instead they camp at the spawnpoints, they got enough RFK. Has nothing to do with tactical decisions etc. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the skulks that ate the nodes can gest for chambers and a lerk and kill everything since the marines wont have upgrades or guns. take an 8v8 game for example. the marines would need to kill the entire alien team just to get enough rfk for a phase gate (not even including the res needed for obs, phase tech and the other pg). if you'd just do the math you'd realise rfk doesnt pay for everything the marines do
We need RFK because it accomplishes several things:
- prevents hive from being dropped too late in larger games
- allows higher lifeforms from being too late in larger games
So it's not how it's done, but what it accomplishes.
If someone were to find a way to remove RFK, yet have a system that allows the hives and forms to appear at times similar to 6v6 as in large games, then it should be applied.
I realize that having just RTs would not be the answer. The only solution I've come up with is to have the alien res system to work as the marines - which will never happen. So while I'm not happy with how RFK is done, it does solve some problems.
Thanks, puzl.
A question I'd like to be answered is why isn't res rate scaled to player count?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IIRC, this has been a position of Flayra from a while ago. That is, he will not make the nodes scale according to the number of players. I'm not sure the reasoning on this.
IIRC, this has been a position of Flayra from a while ago. That is, he will not make the nodes scale according to the number of players. I'm not sure the reasoning on this.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he somewhere stated, that RFK was there in order to help the stronger team win faster.
Pro<ul><li>Rewards good Players</li><li>Makes Players work as Team</li><li>forces to be Cautious</li></ul>
Con<ul><li>Rewards go for Aliens to best killing Persons with no noticeable Effect (a Fade won't devolve to gorge to drop an RT when he's on a Streak), while the whole Marine Team benefits from a Kill</li><li>Teamwork should be in it self an Reward: You simply stay alive longer</li><li>at least the lower Alien Liferforms should not need to be cautious, a Skulk <b><u><i>IS</b></u></i> a suicide unit after all, and the Lerk should be Viable as a Recon. The Gorge has to pay 10res a pop to reevolve</li></ul>
Yes, this are the very same reasons from both sides.
I prefer Alien as I dislike the Marine Gameplay, but Aliens with their noncentral Resource Management suffer twice as much as the Marines, because the Marines get the whole RFK in one Pot where the Comm pays his Stuff from vs Personal Purses.
The Problem with this is, instead of keeping the Gameplay like it was, People addapt to the weaknesses of a System and start to Storm several camping Positions in the Maps, I have even seen a quite succesfull 30~45s Hiverush with rawly equal skilled Teams, where the RFK the Players gave the Commander was enough to keep them alive.
Basicly, you NEED to stop those Marines from locking the Alphahive, but as a Skulk you can't do s...nothing.
Before RFK you could play the Role the Skulk was meant to play with no Problems, but when you today try to distract or disturb the Marine development, they easily benefit from it.
I'd say, RFK is only fair if the Marine, that has been Equipped and Trained with Money, gives Res when you kill him, and any Lifeform the Aliens posess doesn't give out anything.
Wasn't it once this way till some EmoPancys screamed for RFK on both sides? Can't remember properly, but anyway, I put my Vote in removing the RFK alltogether and set my Bucks on automatic Scaling.
<b>More Players = More Res in Game</b>. The Numbers of the Derivation from the Basevalues would need to be extensively Playtested, but even that's better than RFK.
RFK or not, good faders will always go fade and get 32-3 scores. The only way to change this is to change how the fade works period...
And I'd have to agree with you, marines just aren't fun to play. Since the job of the marine is always the same aiming, if you suck at it, then you're useless.
But if you're aliens and suck as fade, at least you can go gorge or onos and bypass the learning curve.
RFK or not, good marines will always go and get 32-3 scores. The only way to change this is to change how the marine works period...
And I'd have to agree with you, aliens just aren't fun to play. Since the job of the alien is always the same biting, if you suck at it, then you're useless.
But if you're marine and suck at aiming, at least you can go cap nodes or build structures and bypass the learning curve.
Scaling will only help aliens, unless you scale upgrade chambers and gestate times to compensate.
RFK or not, good marines will always go and get 32-3 scores. The only way to change this is to change how the marine works period...
And I'd have to agree with you, aliens just aren't fun to play. Since the job of the alien is always the same biting, if you suck at it, then you're useless.
But if you're marine and suck at aiming, at least you can go cap nodes or build structures and bypass the learning curve.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Marines will get the same res flow regardless. Their upgrade speed will be the same. The only difference is the amount of weapons and armors that can be dropped. Aliens on the other hand would have their res split by the number of players on the team.
2. Yup. The day marines aren't only about aiming is the day NS becomes about teamwork.
3. Healing. Ocs. Rts. Mcs. Sporing. Umbras. Stomping. Parasiting.
4. Cap nodes and build structures. So what's your gun for then?
So your point is?
And as for onos being skill-intensive, that's subjective. I'd say nothing tops the fade, but that's also subjective.
1. Marines will get the same res flow regardless. Their upgrade speed will be the same. The only difference is the amount of weapons and armors that can be dropped. Aliens on the other hand would have their res split by the number of players on the team.
2. Yup. The day marines aren't only about aiming is the day NS becomes about teamwork.
3. Healing. Ocs. Rts. Mcs. Sporing. Umbras. Stomping. Parasiting.
4. Cap nodes and build structures. So what's your gun for then?
So your point is?
And as for onos being skill-intensive, that's subjective. I'd say nothing tops the fade, but that's also subjective.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flaming is inevitable here.
2. Your a moron and completely wrong. You can't rambo like in beta 5 anymore. If you played beta 5, or even remembered it, tehn you would know that there was no teamwork for marines in it. Please THINK before you say something like this. Its like saying, the day Halo isn't about aiming is the day Halo becomes teamwork.
3. Agree. Aliens doesn't seem repetitious for me.
4. You act as if you don't see aliens when you cap. Usually in scrimms, or even pubs the comms send the best known marines to cap nodes so they can have a decent res flow.
Summary: Smood, I really think you are taking this RFK business to far. Some of your points aren't even true.Although I agree RFK is totally random, its not a game-breaking thing and I think is fine as is.
RFK or not, good faders will always go fade and get 32-3 scores.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why is that bad?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And by "change how the fade works" I guess you mean change how the whole game is played, in the same type of way that the game changed from 1.04 to 2.0, since the game currently depends on fades being the way they are for aliens to have a chance.
I admit its been a while, but the last time I played there were still a lot of lone marines running around. Hell, even you admit that ramboing is part of the way things are done:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4. You act as if you don't see aliens when you cap. Usually in scrimms, or even pubs the comms send the best known marines to cap nodes so they can have a decent res flow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is what I think SmoodCroozn is saying, that because a player can aim good, they can rambo and actually gain res for it, not only in nodes, but also with R4K (which pays for their medpacks when a random skulk does manage to get a bite in on his back just before he jumps and pulls a mid-air 180 and kills him). In other words, being good at aiming, so you can rambo, is <i>encouraged</i>.
And this is what I think SmoodCroozn is saying, that because a player can aim good, they can rambo and actually gain res for it, not only in nodes, but also with R4K (which pays for their medpacks when a random skulk does manage to get a bite in on his back just before he jumps and pulls a mid-air 180 and kills him). In other words, being good at aiming, so you can rambo, is <i>encouraged</i>.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
RFK encourages ramboing as much as it encourages teamwork. I fail to see the logical connection the two.
@enigma: I never said it was bad, nor if would it matter if I did. I'm simply stating the facts. If I were to say, "Terrorists blew up some towers on 9/11", does that mean I'm supporting them? Think of me like a dictionary.
@im_lost: Exactly. With or without RFK, good fades and good marines will always get the majority of kills, with the current system as is. And again, I say this as a fact, not whether I like it or not.
@everyone: I'm lost here as to what your definition of teamwork is. If you mean sitting around with another guy, then I guess teamwork in NS is no different than a certain game involving terrorists. Or it's no different than massing a billion marines in Starcraft and winning, through numbers. Teamwork on marines is just another gun aiming at a skulk.
To me, teamwork has always been about being specialized in a certain area, yet having weaknesses in others. To me, teamwork is about gorges healing fades when they are too far from the hive. To me, teamwork is about skulks parasiting marines, so that gorges know when to make a run for it. To me, teamwork is about marines (finally), welding heavies, to keep them alive longer. To me... you get the idea.
Only when you have different strengths and weaknesses, does teamwork become vital. How much strategy would Starcraft have, if you could only make one unit? And this is the greatest irony of NS, the team that stands for teamwork, has no specialization, just whoever can aim the fastest. Aliens however have a diversity of roles that encourages different strengths or teamwork, although it's touted as the team about doing the job yourself.
While RFK somewhat solves the problem of less res in larger games, I believe we should keep open-minds for improvement.
Thats not really teamwork, because a good marine can do that on his own, and thanks to R4K he'll even get free medpacks.
Time for annother "back in 1.04...":
You traveled as a team to keep yourselves alive longer. See, there was no R4K so medpacks weren't free. if you ran off on your own and got bit, you'd either have to run back to base or die to get more health. See, no matter how many skulks you raped, you just werent worth the cost of a mepack because that res had to come from RTs, and if the com spent it on medpacks that meant waiting longer for an upgrade. Traveling in groups spread the damage around, and added more guns to the encounter. Additionally, in the late game you usually couldn't afford to give heavies to everybody, and especially not to the heavies who just got killed (though heavies were worth medpacks, because a fresh HA cost more). The heavies didn't get a bunch of res from mowing down skulks, you see. Teamwork then meant that the light marines traveled with the heavies to provide much needed welding, fade blocking, building, and ambush scouting, leaving the heavies free to kick ######.
Not until 3.0 were marines weak enough in comparison to hive one aliens that it might not be worth spending that much res on keeping them alive, rather than teching to increase the value of marines. Despite this it was still most often worth spending res on several bursts of medpacks in the hope of getting that RT that you NEEDED to get down to even stand a chance, regardless of your overall approach. The odd strategy being to conserve as much res as possible to tech early proto tech, something only a very few commanders chose to do and only as a last resort (comparable to a shotgun rush).
The reasons for spending lots of res on medpacks has varied (from the value of a single vanilla marine actually on the field being massive, to the need to make a dent in the alien economy being great enough that you basically had to force that one chance you had no matter the cost), but spending resources on medpacks has always been a priority. The correlation to RFK being introduced is very weak at best.
Time for annother "back in 1.04...":
You traveled as a team to keep yourselves alive longer. See, there was no R4K so medpacks weren't free. if you ran off on your own and got bit, you'd either have to run back to base or die to get more health. See, no matter how many skulks you raped, you just werent worth the cost of a mepack because that res had to come from RTs, and if the com spent it on medpacks that meant waiting longer for an upgrade. Traveling in groups spread the damage around, and added more guns to the encounter. Additionally, in the late game you usually couldn't afford to give heavies to everybody, and especially not to the heavies who just got killed (though heavies were worth medpacks, because a fresh HA cost more). The heavies didn't get a bunch of res from mowing down skulks, you see. Teamwork then meant that the light marines traveled with the heavies to provide much needed welding, fade blocking, building, and ambush scouting, leaving the heavies free to kick ######.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats 2.0(1), cause god thats nothing like 1.0(4) at all <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
@xtcmen: I don't see what the point is in calling me a moron, but say as you wish. My experiences with games in NS have always been that the top marines run to the best spots in the map, say com core or keyhole in eclipse, attempt to lock it down and if successful, now play an inevitable victory.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry for calling you a moron, but that statement was just so wrong.
Lets get one thing out of the way... Vanilla marines > Vanilla aliens (before lerk goes up or upgrades)
Now with that being said, it is somewhat likely that 1 or 2 marines will run all the way to comm core, and not die before the lerk goes up, or chambers go up. If you rush phase tech, you will get a phase gate at around 1:30 - 2 minutes depending on how fast the obs goes up and other things. Usually, those marines should die after a well planned attack before the chambers go up because your main focus should be on those 1 or 2 marines setting up a phase gate.
Now you say marines run to the best spots in the map and lock it down successfully. I don't know where you play at, but I play at the TG server and this RARELY happens. It only happens when the teams are so stacked on marines and the comm is nub that they go for a two hive lockdown instead of spawn camping and ending the game.
The aliens must be very bad if 1 or 2 marines cross the map and set up a tfac and phase tech by themselves.
That's not true, good commanders spammed more medpacks in 1.04 than in 3.1. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its been a long time, but from what I recall they NEVER dropped a med for one guy. Heavy trains approaching the hive? Oh hell yeah. A group of light armors? Maybe.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This works simply because in 1.04 a single marine was a great deal more powerful than his hive one alien counterparts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I don't recall it that way at all. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I recall that lone marines nearly always lost to a skulks. Only in a group were marines a match for skulks. They way I recall, aliens had the advantage at the begining, then marines did after a few upgrades, then aliens after hive2+fade, then even-ish whenmarines got heavies. Maybe alien players on the servers I played on were alot better than average (the experienced players there did seem to prefer aliens), but I specifically remember being able to take down lone marines most of the time, and I can't be called skilled by any definition that exists. Maybe its a difference in number of players? The servers I played on were almost always 24+ (the only way to play, really).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The value of keeping marines on the field was great enough to overshadow even the advantages of weapon upgrades if it came to that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now I'm finding it hard to believe that we're even talking about the same version. More than once I heard a commander tell a player to just die if he wanted more health. Commanders that were experienced regs and winners, not just random comms.
BTW people, its COMP core. You know, COMPuter core.
Thats not really teamwork, because a good marine can do that on his own, and thanks to R4K he'll even get free medpacks.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good marines with teamwork do it even better, and just because the marine is alone doesnt mean its not teamwork.
To me ramboing is a part of this whole teamwork thing(depending on the situation). You put pressure off the guys building and force the aliens to fight in an area of your choice, a dead alien cant kill your restowers or cappers.
Its tactical, its teamwork and its useful so it wont change with the removal of RFK.
How is moving together with someone more teamwork?
for example on tanith would it be more teamplay on my side if i walked with 3 other guys into cargo from dbl than if i moved through chem-acidic and got to the ambushpositions in cargo from behind?
I wouldnt call moving with someone else teamwork untill you move in tactical formations etc but that wont happen since it takes so much practice not even clans do it, moving with others in a big lump like on public is just an effective way of blocking eachother.
<!--quoteo(post=1579854:date=Nov 22 2006, 09:08 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Nov 22 2006, 09:08 PM) [snapback]1579854[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Again, I don't recall it that way at all. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I recall that lone marines nearly always lost to a skulks.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
good marines were imba, they could bunnyjump backwards faster than walkerskulks move forwards.