At the competive level marines are harder to play than aliens, thus why marines lose more. When a team with more experiance and skill faces a team with less, the team with less almost always has a better chance of pulling an upset on aliens compared to marines. Here is why:
- It takes less "skilled" players to win on aliens. Aliens can win with 2 fades and a lerk doing all the combat in the game, sometimes they can even get by on 1 fade depending on who the marines are, everyone else is support (gorgeing, killing nodes) I'm not saying teams dont have 6 skilled alien players, just that you dont need 6.
- Mistakes. Aliens can recover from mistakes A LOT easier than marines can. Ive seen a lot of second hives die and aliens still come back and win. If marines make an active push on the second hive (spending res) and fail, most of the time that is game over unless the aliens didnt hit nodes. Possable reasons: the res game. Aliens can limp along at 1-2 RT, especially if they had more nodes up at one point. Marines need 4+ (6 if your teaching a lot) to just keep up. Also when aliens lose a second hive but still have lifeforms up they can still effectively fight the marines unless proto is up(and it wont be unless its a jp rush).
- More on the res game. An alien RT is much more powerful than a marine RT. Aliens can live on a huge boost of res than save it up for emergency use (ie loseing your RT early game.) If aliens ever control more than 3 RT they are just swimming in res, even if marines kill the RT and bring them down to 1 again a smart gorge will have enough stored up res to just go recap. Once aliens get going on the res game they are very hard to break. Marines need a consant flow of res to keep going, if they get down to 1-2 nodes they HAVE to recap or they will lose.
- The early game. So many things can go wrong for marines in the early game. Cappers die, Pressure dies, base dies, Drfurrious jumps out. Marines have to out kill the aliens by a large margin in the early game or they are in huge trouble. Even with getting more kills, make that one mistake and pressure team is dead. Most marine pressure teams are 3 marines(sometimes 4.) Aliens need 3 kills to stop the early presssure. Marines need X many kills there X is the amount of aliens that attack the pressure team. Most of the time X is a double digit number.
I could prob drone on about this more but I think you get the idea.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
The single biggest issue with 'balance', and this has been going on for as long as i have been a part of the NS community, is that it is subjective..
You can never 'prove' balance. You can prove unbalance, but not the other way around.
NS IS balanced, as close to as perfectly as it can be, and it has been balanced since the Major changes just after 2.0.
How can i say this??
Well the consties had great fun along with PT's on this and it was generally agreed, skill difference's aside, that NS is very well balanced for teams with around 8-9 players each.
Any lower, and the Alien res count works too much in their favour, giving them a superior rate of res advantage over the Marines.
When you get higher than that number of players the Alien resource rate drops too low and the marines have the res tech advantage.
So the solution is to either balance the game for clanners at 6v6 or leave it as it is and keep it balanced for casual gamers.
We could always change the clan match sizes to 8v8 to promote more balance..
<!--quoteo(post=1574404:date=Nov 7 2006, 06:32 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soul_Rider @ Nov 7 2006, 06:32 PM) [snapback]1574404[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We could always change the clan match sizes to 8v8 to promote more balance..
Now there's an idea.... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS competitive player base isn't that big.
Also, mustang is the best player in NS, I don't know what you're talking about, he's the exception.
So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED?
<!--quoteo(post=1574428:date=Nov 7 2006, 08:04 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Nov 7 2006, 08:04 PM) [snapback]1574428[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's the case, we have way too many bad marine teams.
<!--quoteo(post=1574428:date=Nov 7 2006, 03:04 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Nov 7 2006, 03:04 PM) [snapback]1574428[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines are fine atm. Just learn how to use them well.
Yes, marines can win, and yes you can have a player on marines donimate the game, but a player can also donimate on aliens too. The case is in competive play you can get by with 3 alien players that do most of the combat, on marines everyone has to pull there weigtht more, plus you need a skilled commander.
Back when terror was around the only time we won a round or came close to winning a round vs them was when we( cX) was playing aliens.
On every team I have been on when we play a lesser skilled team and lose a round it was always the marine round. I can think of only a few marine tie games ive played, and those were mostly on marine based maps.
The game is balanced for pub play. (too many varables to balance anyway but its close enough)
<!--quoteo(post=1574429:date=Nov 7 2006, 02:10 PM:name=BiG-Serge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BiG-Serge @ Nov 7 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]1574429[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If that's the case, we have way too many bad marine teams. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> omgnoway!!!1 <img src="http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6950/1158699448649ks2.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1574428:date=Nov 7 2006, 03:04 PM:name=Jmmsbnd007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jmmsbnd007 @ Nov 7 2006, 03:04 PM) [snapback]1574428[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah, if it is a high-skilled clan vs high-skilled clan marines should win, because they are naturally better. If it low-skill vs low-skill aliens should win because aliens are better when marines have poor teamwork or aim.
<!--quoteo(post=1574449:date=Nov 7 2006, 01:01 PM:name=LazyEye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyEye @ Nov 7 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]1574449[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The game is balanced for pub play. (too many varables to balance anyway but its close enough) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, that's why we see scores like 36-5 versus 11-18 all the time.
Games with relatively same-skilled people are the best, I'm sure we all agree. But the design of NS, or more specifically, RFK extends the skill gap between a good and average player.
I don't know where this magical idea that NS is balanced comes from, but in pub play, it certainly isn't. Marines is either aim well or die, something good players show very clearly. A team of average players will normally get massacred by skulks. But good players can easily walk into hive 2 and start locking it early in the game.
So what I'd like to see is NS actively doing something about the large gaps in skill in games rather than saying, "oh well". One option is making the game easier. For instance, you have a relatively no-skill job like building a RT, something everyone can do. I'm not saying anything specific, but making things easier will lower skill gaps.
<!--quoteo(post=1574394:date=Nov 7 2006, 10:10 AM:name=LazyEye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyEye @ Nov 7 2006, 10:10 AM) [snapback]1574394[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> - The early game. So many things can go wrong for marines in the early game. Cappers die, Pressure dies, base dies, Drfurrious jumps out. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
<!--quoteo(post=1574674:date=Nov 8 2006, 09:27 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Nov 8 2006, 09:27 AM) [snapback]1574674[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TY Underwhelmed, somebody from xensity told me that taking down alien nodes is unimportant if you have enough marine nodes.
good players + <u><i><b>good comm</b></i></u> few left
<!--quoteo(post=1574674:date=Nov 8 2006, 04:27 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Nov 8 2006, 04:27 AM) [snapback]1574674[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you cap and tech like mad its not hard to rape 2 hive aliens
Hell, as a comm, my strat is to pull up Weapons tech as fast as possible. Armor really doesn't cross my mind as a comm, since it doesn't do too much. (Least for a while.)
Phase comes around the middle. And capping teams should head out both directions. Assuming nine players (counting myself) I'd have three go one way, three the other, and two stay in base to get it up and running, and then they go the third route if one exists.
<!--quoteo(post=1575036:date=Nov 9 2006, 01:37 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 9 2006, 01:37 AM) [snapback]1575036[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Hell, as a comm, my strat is to pull up Weapons tech as fast as possible. Armor really doesn't cross my mind as a comm, since it doesn't do too much. (Least for a while.)
Phase comes around the middle. And capping teams should head out both directions. Assuming nine players (counting myself) I'd have three go one way, three the other, and two stay in base to get it up and running, and then they go the third route if one exists. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't do too much huh? 1 parasite on a marine without armor 1 will take away that 3rd extra bite, and that marine might as well have no armor at all. Armor 1 fixes that, so it takes many more parasites to take that 3rd bite away that it's not worth it.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Be that way, didn't mean I put it off until I've gotten weapons three, it's just not the first upgrade I go for.
I usually get it between phase and weapons two, and then weather I keep with my original plan (max killing potential) or get them additional armor depends on which I feel is more worth the time and res.
Like most metagame thoughts, they only prove viable so long into the game.
A1 makes a bigger difference than W1 during ambushes if marines can aim fine, you can fire off more than one bullet during the pause between 2nd and 3rd bite. All W1 does is cancel innate regen.
Aliens are more dependent on individual skill development and marines are more dependent on strict and knowledgeable teamwork. Thus pretty much since as long as I can remember in NS the gameplay structure has been, if both teams are absolutely pubtastic then aliens will lose because there won't be a fade good enough to dominate, if both teams are highly individually skilled (most clans for example) then aliens will win because the fades are dominating enough to dispatch unorganized marines. If both teams are good teams (the top tier clans) then it evens out again because the fades are good, but the marines are organized enough to deal with them.
In NS marines are terran and aliens are zerg. Marines have to be micromanaged, that is to say they need to keep on top of who should be where and why they should be there and how much health their buddies have, and who goes in front of who, where aliens just need to move in the same direction at the same time, they need to be macro managed. The alien game is more skill intensive as a trade off for being less intelligent.
Aliens depend on teamwork heavily, since one marine can easily dispatch a skulk, and if you don't have alien teamwork, an "organized" marine team is going to anally rape your nodes. Unfortunately, all alien teams have teamwork down in organized play.
It is true that good fades carry a team, but they can't win the game alone. The match pretty much also depends on marine ability at taking fades down.
NS is a game where there are/can be huge skill/knowledge/understanding differences in players. This is GOOD. Because games are decided by the BETTER team, its why the competitive community can exist and thrive. In the case of the original poster, both teams are better at aliens then they're opponents are at marines, and hence have won those rounds.
The way I see it, both teams are dependant on teamwork - the only difference is that the marines are more so than the aliens which can work independently - but that also partially depends on what tasks/lifeforms we are talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1575386:date=Nov 10 2006, 07:28 AM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(N_3 @ Nov 10 2006, 07:28 AM) [snapback]1575386[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS is a game where there are/can be huge skill/knowledge/understanding differences in players. This is GOOD. Because games are decided by the BETTER team, its why the competitive community can exist and thrive. In the case of the original poster, both teams are better at aliens then they're opponents are at marines, and hence have won those rounds. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All teams are better at aliens, naturally, simply because they select more naturally. Aliens need nerfing, obviously since everyone is better at them. This is exactly the same as saying that aliens are stronger than marines.
Ok, maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone, but the unbalance factor is still there even if exigent played terror.
<!--quoteo(post=1575457:date=Nov 10 2006, 07:44 AM:name=BiG-Serge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BiG-Serge @ Nov 10 2006, 07:44 AM) [snapback]1575457[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ok, maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone, but the unbalance factor is still there even if exigent played terror. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really. In fact, a lot of our ties boiled down to the map... a map with easy picks for skulks (caged, orbital, tanith to a lesser extent) gave the aliens just enough push to alien tie... a map like veil and it was pretty much always a marine victory. Even still, it's hard to discuss this because there have never been any true invite level teams. Exigent and Terror certainly had their fair share of baddies and poor habits.
Let's not discount the commander though, the only <i>good</i> commander that I've ever played with made playing marines patently easy...
Please tell me you're not referring to Adj. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
But yeah, I think the main issue is there aren't any good commanders anymore. Every single team I've played with, there's way too many times where I'm looking at my minimap and thinking "This guy is a dumb ######".
The only commanders I've been 100% comfortable playing with were some euro comms in pugs, can't remember who they were though. One of em would literally tell you where ever single skulk was on the map, it was awesome.
Jmms: The reason there hasn't ever been any true invite teams is because there's no invite. If teams and players actually had something to play for, everyone would get a lot better.
I only want my commander to shut up 97% off the time and let the marines use their minimap and gameknowledge to do the right thing, but if the team isnt experienced its gg.
This was kind of OT but anyway
Edit: and no i dont think the marines are horribly underpowered maybe a little bit but it will be better in 3.2 so.
<!--quoteo(post=1575626:date=Nov 11 2006, 06:00 AM:name=vms)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vms @ Nov 11 2006, 06:00 AM) [snapback]1575626[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I only want my commander to shut up 97% off the time <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i guess this is very much the reason why people wanna get rid of the comm and replace it with a program. u need cs.
Those 1 or 2 good fades and a lerk you'll need to take the alien round can learn it in co.
The comm and 3 or 4 teamworking marines with mediocore aim you'll need for winning the marine round can only learn in pcws.
Sure I've learned the basics of marine play and strategy in pubs, but I can't see everyone doing the same.
No matter how solid the aim is, marines actually need to take the point while aliens can just build 2 rts, have someone to munch marine rts and sit back until fades and then again until the 2nd hive goes up.
With more clans, the skill difference inside clans wouldn't be so huge, meaning there wouldn't be so many of those alien rounds getting carried by the fade.
Comments
- It takes less "skilled" players to win on aliens. Aliens can win with 2 fades and a lerk doing all the combat in the game, sometimes they can even get by on 1 fade depending on who the marines are, everyone else is support (gorgeing, killing nodes) I'm not saying teams dont have 6 skilled alien players, just that you dont need 6.
- Mistakes. Aliens can recover from mistakes A LOT easier than marines can. Ive seen a lot of second hives die and aliens still come back and win. If marines make an active push on the second hive (spending res) and fail, most of the time that is game over unless the aliens didnt hit nodes. Possable reasons: the res game. Aliens can limp along at 1-2 RT, especially if they had more nodes up at one point. Marines need 4+ (6 if your teaching a lot) to just keep up. Also when aliens lose a second hive but still have lifeforms up they can still effectively fight the marines unless proto is up(and it wont be unless its a jp rush).
- More on the res game. An alien RT is much more powerful than a marine RT. Aliens can live on a huge boost of res than save it up for emergency use (ie loseing your RT early game.) If aliens ever control more than 3 RT they are just swimming in res, even if marines kill the RT and bring them down to 1 again a smart gorge will have enough stored up res to just go recap. Once aliens get going on the res game they are very hard to break. Marines need a consant flow of res to keep going, if they get down to 1-2 nodes they HAVE to recap or they will lose.
- The early game. So many things can go wrong for marines in the early game. Cappers die, Pressure dies, base dies, Drfurrious jumps out. Marines have to out kill the aliens by a large margin in the early game or they are in huge trouble. Even with getting more kills, make that one mistake and pressure team is dead. Most marine pressure teams are 3 marines(sometimes 4.) Aliens need 3 kills to stop the early presssure. Marines need X many kills there X is the amount of aliens that attack the pressure team. Most of the time X is a double digit number.
I could prob drone on about this more but I think you get the idea.
You can never 'prove' balance. You can prove unbalance, but not the other way around.
NS IS balanced, as close to as perfectly as it can be, and it has been balanced since the Major changes just after 2.0.
How can i say this??
Well the consties had great fun along with PT's on this and it was generally agreed, skill difference's aside, that NS is very well balanced for teams with around 8-9 players each.
Any lower, and the Alien res count works too much in their favour, giving them a superior rate of res advantage over the Marines.
When you get higher than that number of players the Alien resource rate drops too low and the marines have the res tech advantage.
So the solution is to either balance the game for clanners at 6v6 or leave it as it is and keep it balanced for casual gamers.
We could always change the clan match sizes to 8v8 to promote more balance..
Now there's an idea....
Now there's an idea....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS competitive player base isn't that big.
Also, mustang is the best player in NS, I don't know what you're talking about, he's the exception.
So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's the case, we have way too many bad marine teams.
Marines are fine atm. Just learn how to use them well.
FYI
Jmms is tooo good on marines.
Back when terror was around the only time we won a round or came close to winning a round vs them was when we( cX) was playing aliens.
On every team I have been on when we play a lesser skilled team and lose a round it was always the marine round. I can think of only a few marine tie games ive played, and those were mostly on marine based maps.
The game is balanced for pub play. (too many varables to balance anyway but its close enough)
If that's the case, we have way too many bad marine teams.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
omgnoway!!!1
<img src="http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6950/1158699448649ks2.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
So if the marines have skill, that's an exception; they're not underpowered anymore. What you are saying is that the marine team is too weak when you have bad players. QED?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yeah, if it is a high-skilled clan vs high-skilled clan marines should win, because they are naturally better. If it low-skill vs low-skill aliens should win because aliens are better when marines have poor teamwork or aim.
The game is balanced for pub play. (too many varables to balance anyway but its close enough)
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, that's why we see scores like 36-5 versus 11-18 all the time.
Games with relatively same-skilled people are the best, I'm sure we all agree. But the design of NS, or more specifically, RFK extends the skill gap between a good and average player.
I don't know where this magical idea that NS is balanced comes from, but in pub play, it certainly isn't. Marines is either aim well or die, something good players show very clearly. A team of average players will normally get massacred by skulks. But good players can easily walk into hive 2 and start locking it early in the game.
So what I'd like to see is NS actively doing something about the large gaps in skill in games rather than saying, "oh well". One option is making the game easier. For instance, you have a relatively no-skill job like building a RT, something everyone can do. I'm not saying anything specific, but making things easier will lower skill gaps.
- The early game. So many things can go wrong for marines in the early game. Cappers die, Pressure dies, base dies, Drfurrious jumps out.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TY Underwhelmed, somebody from xensity told me that taking down alien nodes is unimportant if you have enough marine nodes.
few left
<!--quoteo(post=1574674:date=Nov 8 2006, 04:27 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Nov 8 2006, 04:27 AM) [snapback]1574674[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
QFT. Early marine pressure getting a node or two down is almost essential to win. If marines don't take nodes down, they have to deal with fades and a 2nd hive much earlier, meaning they have less upgrades/equipment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you cap and tech like mad its not hard to rape 2 hive aliens
Phase comes around the middle. And capping teams should head out both directions. Assuming nine players (counting myself) I'd have three go one way, three the other, and two stay in base to get it up and running, and then they go the third route if one exists.
Hell, as a comm, my strat is to pull up Weapons tech as fast as possible. Armor really doesn't cross my mind as a comm, since it doesn't do too much. (Least for a while.)
Phase comes around the middle. And capping teams should head out both directions. Assuming nine players (counting myself) I'd have three go one way, three the other, and two stay in base to get it up and running, and then they go the third route if one exists.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesn't do too much huh? 1 parasite on a marine without armor 1 will take away that 3rd extra bite, and that marine might as well have no armor at all. Armor 1 fixes that, so it takes many more parasites to take that 3rd bite away that it's not worth it.
I usually get it between phase and weapons two, and then weather I keep with my original plan (max killing potential) or get them additional armor depends on which I feel is more worth the time and res.
Like most metagame thoughts, they only prove viable so long into the game.
In NS marines are terran and aliens are zerg. Marines have to be micromanaged, that is to say they need to keep on top of who should be where and why they should be there and how much health their buddies have, and who goes in front of who, where aliens just need to move in the same direction at the same time, they need to be macro managed. The alien game is more skill intensive as a trade off for being less intelligent.
It is true that good fades carry a team, but they can't win the game alone. The match pretty much also depends on marine ability at taking fades down.
NS is a game where there are/can be huge skill/knowledge/understanding differences in players. This is GOOD. Because games are decided by the BETTER team, its why the competitive community can exist and thrive. In the case of the original poster, both teams are better at aliens then they're opponents are at marines, and hence have won those rounds.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All teams are better at aliens, naturally, simply because they select more naturally. Aliens need nerfing, obviously since everyone is better at them. This is exactly the same as saying that aliens are stronger than marines.
Ok, maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone, but the unbalance factor is still there even if exigent played terror.
Ok, maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone, but the unbalance factor is still there even if exigent played terror.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. In fact, a lot of our ties boiled down to the map... a map with easy picks for skulks (caged, orbital, tanith to a lesser extent) gave the aliens just enough push to alien tie... a map like veil and it was pretty much always a marine victory. Even still, it's hard to discuss this because there have never been any true invite level teams. Exigent and Terror certainly had their fair share of baddies and poor habits.
Let's not discount the commander though, the only <i>good</i> commander that I've ever played with made playing marines patently easy...
But yeah, I think the main issue is there aren't any good commanders anymore. Every single team I've played with, there's way too many times where I'm looking at my minimap and thinking "This guy is a dumb ######".
The only commanders I've been 100% comfortable playing with were some euro comms in pugs, can't remember who they were though. One of em would literally tell you where ever single skulk was on the map, it was awesome.
Jmms: The reason there hasn't ever been any true invite teams is because there's no invite. If teams and players actually had something to play for, everyone would get a lot better.
This was kind of OT but anyway
Edit: and no i dont think the marines are horribly underpowered maybe a little bit but it will be better in 3.2 so.
I only want my commander to shut up 97% off the time
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i guess this is very much the reason why people wanna get rid of the comm and replace it with a program. u need cs.
The comm and 3 or 4 teamworking marines with mediocore aim you'll need for winning the marine round can only learn in pcws.
Sure I've learned the basics of marine play and strategy in pubs, but I can't see everyone doing the same.
No matter how solid the aim is, marines actually need to take the point while aliens can just build 2 rts, have someone to munch marine rts and sit back until fades and then again until the 2nd hive goes up.
With more clans, the skill difference inside clans wouldn't be so huge, meaning there wouldn't be so many of those alien rounds getting carried by the fade.