WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
One of *my* barriers to change is: one of the things I like about NS is that it runs on damn near any machine. I've always assumed I'd lose that luxury in its next installment.
I think that it's in both NS's and UWE's best intreset to make NS2 instead of NS:S. It will be a lot easier to promote NS2 as a retail game to investors, game magazines and new players than it will be to make them write about a mod for Half-Life 2 (even if you do release it via Steam).
I'd go for NS2 on the source engine, as a stand-alone retail game. We already have NS. Another copy of NS with prettier graphics won't become the best-selling game of the year. NS2 might.
(I also doubt NS:S would be as good as NS is anyway, people will always find things that they liked better about NS on the HL engine. Like the movement physics for example [no more bhop sadface <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> ])
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
At first I thought it would be a hard choice, but the more I thought about it NS2 really appealled to me more.
I would love do see what Flayra could do with the Source engine, but I'd rather see him pick/make his own and see what magic really occurs.
NS2 is a better way to build a player base if you can find a good way to distribute it. It seems like most file distributing services are turning into heavily GUI'ed bittorrents(FilePlanet, WOW, Direct2Drive). If distributing isn't a problem and the time frame really is the same(even if NS2 would take longer IMO) then NS2 is the way to go.
Besides, Steam could distribute NS2 anyway if you wanted it to. I can't think of anything you gain from Source.
I'm sorry to say this, but making a good NS2 would take too much time, and I think currently UWE dont have enought money/time/people to do this <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> ( I remember Flayra said something like this several months ago ) . That's why I prefer NSS, because it can be done in a reasonable amount of time with much less cost. However, Flayra said in this thread that both games would take the same amount of time to make. If this was really true, maybe it would be more interesting NS2 rather than NSS . By the way, there's a question that it's not clear, NS2 would have single player missions, or only would be multiplayer ?
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Now you're coming around, Karba. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--quoteo(post=1568063:date=Sep 26 2006, 05:02 PM:name=coris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(coris @ Sep 26 2006, 05:02 PM) [snapback]1568063[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I also doubt NS:S would be as good as NS is anyway, people will always find things that they liked better about NS on the HL engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good call. Just look at how much moaning we get about 1.04 being "the real NS".
Folks aren't likely to so quickly hold NS2 to <i>as many</i> expectations as they've established (even if subconciously) for NS:S.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> By the way, there's a question that it's not clear, NS2 would have single player missions, or only would be multiplayer ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Undecided as far as I can tell. NS2 would try to include more things that weren't in the original NS (like a single player) as opposed to trying to preserve the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> QUOTE(coris @ Sep 26 2006, 05:02 PM) * (I also doubt NS:S would be as good as NS is anyway, people will always find things that they liked better about NS on the HL engine.
Good call. Just look at how much moaning we get about 1.04 being "the real NS".
Folks aren't likely to so quickly hold NS2 to as many expectations as they've established (even if subconciously) for NS:S.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to be harsh but Source remakes of Mods just seem doomed to fail because you have to preserve the gameplay while adding as many new things a possible, so people who didn't like the game in the first place will probably still dislike it and people who did tend to rebel against the changes.
One could argue that NS2 faces the same dilemma but I think there are less restrictions with a sequel as opposed to a port. People expect things to be radically different on some level.
Also a port would strictly restrict you to Source, which would mean that the people who buy the game would have to be a subset of the people who all ready have HL2 as opposed to a new game in which (hopefully) the people who own HL2 would be a subset of NS2 players.
NS2 just for the fact like locallyunscene said. not everyone has HL2 and no matter what you say not everyone is going to have HL2. making a whole new engine is opening a new door for the company its self. i mean sure anyone who dives into HL - 1 mods has heard of ns and this company. but not everyone plays HL anymore and if they did, who's to say they have never heard of ns or UWE. NS2 just seems like the better gameplan for UWE and for us. It gets the message out to players who are just starting with video games or picking up one. that UWE is not just a simple modding company but can make full working best selling games.
But I'd be happy if it was only multiplayer. I'm afraid that devotion to a single player element would take away from the multi-player game, which is REALLY what ns is about.
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
edited September 2006
I voted NS2. I believe NS2's allowance for new content & new tools/engines to implement that content would make it the more enjoyable of the two for you to develop. Until I am told an example that would indicate otherwise, I also believe it would be more likely to generate a business-maintaining or business-expanding financial base & fanbase. Finally, I would accept (even encourage) the creation of more small games like Zen of Sudoku if it meant your next "big" game (NS related or othewise) would be closer to how you really wanted it to be.
Please discuss the 2nd and 3rd point I just made with someone more familiar with your business, its strategy, and its relation to the industry as a whole.
Asked this on the forums that alerted me to this topic...
Were you still looking to make NS2 its own stand-alone engine or is Source the only thing you plan on using?
Making a unique game engine takes a fair share of manpower and a lot of time, but you end up with something you can build future products off of at your own leisure, i.e... no Valve saying "Get the mod done with these specs by so-and-so date if you want to have our source engine licensed to you." Furthermore, if you make your own engine, you have a bargaining chip: say NS2 doesn't pan out, what now? Well, if you have your own engine that works well and has something to offer that Source or Havok (apologies if that's the wrong name) doesn't, license it out and fill your research budget with that.
It is true that with all the suggestions that were made from the source i&s forum you could just make NS2, so I voted NS2. Get some atmosphere in and we're all set!
I voted NS2, why go over old ground? If you want the NS experience you may as well play NS rather than NS:S. I'd like to see something that makes people sit up and take notice, the same way that NS did when it was released. Something that makes good use of the source engine's capabilities. And most of all, I want to see marines tossed around by a rampaging Onos. Oh yes.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited September 2006
I figure that by the time ns has been adapted to work well on the source engine (for NS:S), it'll be at some uncomfortable middle ground between NS and NS2. It will have the same gamemodes, but due to all the other factors that come with moving a game to a new engine, it will play noticably differently from NS.
I say skip the foreplay and make NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I think whatever game you make, please lower the frustration level.
What I mean is there are so many hitbox and server optimization problems with ns it's crazy, worse than any game i've ever played, because everything moves so fast. Whatever you do, please make hitboxes and netcode your number one priority. When people shoot at stuff, it should register!
NS2 might be a good game if you can replicate the "fun" factor that's in ns. It would be cool to have some trick jumping for marines and wall jumping techniques for aliens, though i hope bunnyhopping isn't in ns:2. I mean I love doing it, but i totally recognize that it makes the game inaccessible because it's really a skill you NEED to learn.
But seriously, the combination of inherent hitbox problems, unnoticed problems like the shotgun bug, and the fact that most pub servers don't get good fps because ns is so cpu intensive make this game really frustrating to pub. It's really the biggest drawback to NS IMHO. So i think you're better off fixing it with a new engine than using source which i hear has worse netcode than hl
<!--quoteo(post=1568074:date=Sep 26 2006, 06:53 PM:name=Marik_Steele)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marik_Steele @ Sep 26 2006, 06:53 PM) [snapback]1568074[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I voted NS2. I believe NS2's allowance for new content & new tools/engines to implement that content would make it the more enjoyable of the two for you to develop. Until I am told an example that would indicate otherwise, I also believe it would be more likely to generate a business-maintaining or business-expanding financial base & fanbase. Finally, I would accept (even encourage) the creation of more small games like Zen of Sudoku if it meant your next "big" game (NS related or othewise) would be closer to how you really wanted it to be.
Please discuss the 2nd and 3rd point I just made with someone more familiar with your business, its strategy, and its relation to the industry as a whole. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- Writing our own engine would likely be out of scope for us for NS2. Source would probably be our best option. - Either way, the game would be for sale over Steam and either way it won't require any other software (Half-life 1 or 2); it will be a standalone game, not a mod.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Kind of like what The Ship did? Sounds like a plan. Plus you'll get free PR from valve in their weekly updates and likely a big news post that will come up on steam when its released.
<!--quoteo(post=1568025:date=Sep 26 2006, 03:19 PM:name=MrMakaveli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrMakaveli @ Sep 26 2006, 03:19 PM) [snapback]1568025[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> NS:S. NS is very fun for competitive play, and I don't want it to change. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would rather have NS2. I have pretty much played the hell out of NS over the years, I would like some gameplay and visual changes. But, if NS:S can be finished quicker, and be easier on the team, I wouldn't mind it. (though, I've been looking forward to NS:S for years. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />)
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
NS 2, if it took the same amount of time. Otherwise NS: Source, as I'd love to see the paranoia and claustrophobic affect sink in once again as you traverse corridors ridden with shadows and bizarre normal mapped infestations...
Think about it though! If you make NS Source, ..looking at the stats for Episode 1, Sin Episodes, the Ship, Red Orchestra, Day of Defeat Source, and Darwinia.. a hell of a lot of people bought them. And that would mean a hell of a lot of money pouring through Steam to you, to fund NS 2.
NS2, being made on the mass market, in a boxed version or through maybe Steam, would be able to fund even more ambitious projects. Think about it.
However, NS2 right off the bat might spell disaster for UWE. While most of us here would play it, yes, if you are unable to fund such an ambitious project... here comes the guillotine.
NS2 offers the opportunity for new , refreshing , even revolutionary gameplay : a new game so terrific that everyone would forget about the bad feelings associated with the state of neglected NS. Show originality , and you will immediately catch the player's interest back. Seamless and customizable evolution should be doable with Source , for an awe inspiring result (think of a tiny parasiting lerk that turns into a dragon-like marine devourer)
Go for total brilliance. I think the symbolic difference between a port of NS and the <i>best game ever</i> is important enough to strive for it. I believe you're one of the very few who can achieve a game experience that would dwarf even the upcoming Supreme Commander.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Just to buck the trend....
<i>I voted NS:Source. </i>
It could sell, we all know that. So let's not argue about commercial viability. What I'm interested in is timescales, making 'the game we wished we did', and risk. On the point of timescale, production of NS:S I would have thought would be far quicker than NS2. As we have a loyal core community who would immediately be involved, the faster it's done, the more people we still have, and there's nothing stopping NS2 being produced as a result of the success (or sale?) of NS:S.
On 'the game we wished we made', NS as we all agree, is a <b><i>fantastic game</b></i>. If anything, it's one of the best Team FPS's currently available, by a long way, and there's an extremely small selection of games with this much emphasis on team play. The biggest downfall of NS are the engine. Half Life simply was never intended to jump the hoops NS makes it do, and people have moved on from the HL engine. You have a massive catchment area in the form of the CSS and HL2 communities, and capitalising on that could only be a good thing, imo. Adding the ability to do every alien and marine class, ability and function as was invisioned rather than the compromises that HL forced would be delightful.
Risk? Look around. There's a clear desire for this sort of game, and a lack of quality titles. There is, however, a huge number of BF2-a-likes, which are EA inspired soulless money farms. It's lowest common denominator tripe, and there's no talent to it.
Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I see no harm in doing NS:S, especially as it can be used as a springboard to learn lessons and ensure that NS2 has the luxury of less pressure, timewise, and more chance to develop the NS world before production of a major AAA title.
NS is played out, there are problems that need to be addressed that can't or won't because it's overestablished, people who didn't like the original NS for whatever reason won't even look at a straight source port, it's not what they want, and I really doubt porting the game to source straight will be much fun for you and your development team in comparison to making something new. A boring project is less likely to get done well then a fun but extensive project.
I think it's fairly clear that NS2 is really what is needed here, even though many of the addict gremlin yesmen that make up the current community won't approve. The original design problems need a change to be addressed and the we need something new and original to bring new faces around, even if it means shaking off some dead flesh.
How about NS2 being the single player part and NS:S being the Multiplayer part <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
gameplay of ns2 over graphics any day. NS is ns, just sticking it into the source engine wont make a new game, its still ns. i personally love ns for what it is, i like the graphics, cant say im bothered about it being made source
definitely NS:S I've been waiting for this for ages! And I don't give a damn about NS2 because I never was really interested in it. I don't really understand why most of the users here voted for it..
NS2 because it can offer a bigger step forward (i.e. new content). Porting to NS:S will never meet the expectations of the player base. Leave NS on HL1 engine and let it rest...
Comments
I'd go for NS2 on the source engine, as a stand-alone retail game. We already have NS. Another copy of NS with prettier graphics won't become the best-selling game of the year. NS2 might.
(I also doubt NS:S would be as good as NS is anyway, people will always find things that they liked better about NS on the HL engine. Like the movement physics for example [no more bhop sadface <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> ])
I would love do see what Flayra could do with the Source engine, but I'd rather see him pick/make his own and see what magic really occurs.
NS2 is a better way to build a player base if you can find a good way to distribute it. It seems like most file distributing services are turning into heavily GUI'ed bittorrents(FilePlanet, WOW, Direct2Drive). If distributing isn't a problem and the time frame really is the same(even if NS2 would take longer IMO) then NS2 is the way to go.
Besides, Steam could distribute NS2 anyway if you wanted it to. I can't think of anything you gain from Source.
However, Flayra said in this thread that both games would take the same amount of time to make. If this was really true, maybe it would be more interesting NS2 rather than NSS .
By the way, there's a question that it's not clear, NS2 would have single player missions, or only would be multiplayer ?
<!--quoteo(post=1568063:date=Sep 26 2006, 05:02 PM:name=coris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(coris @ Sep 26 2006, 05:02 PM) [snapback]1568063[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(I also doubt NS:S would be as good as NS is anyway, people will always find things that they liked better about NS on the HL engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good call. Just look at how much moaning we get about 1.04 being "the real NS".
Folks aren't likely to so quickly hold NS2 to <i>as many</i> expectations as they've established (even if subconciously) for NS:S.
Unfortunatly I voted without reading what you posted, and went for NS:S ^_^
Undecided as far as I can tell. NS2 would try to include more things that weren't in the original NS (like a single player) as opposed to trying to preserve the gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
QUOTE(coris @ Sep 26 2006, 05:02 PM) *
(I also doubt NS:S would be as good as NS is anyway, people will always find things that they liked better about NS on the HL engine.
Good call. Just look at how much moaning we get about 1.04 being "the real NS".
Folks aren't likely to so quickly hold NS2 to as many expectations as they've established (even if subconciously) for NS:S.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to be harsh but Source remakes of Mods just seem doomed to fail because you have to preserve the gameplay while adding as many new things a possible, so people who didn't like the game in the first place will probably still dislike it and people who did tend to rebel against the changes.
One could argue that NS2 faces the same dilemma but I think there are less restrictions with a sequel as opposed to a port. People expect things to be radically different on some level.
Also a port would strictly restrict you to Source, which would mean that the people who buy the game would have to be a subset of the people who all ready have HL2 as opposed to a new game in which (hopefully) the people who own HL2 would be a subset of NS2 players.
But I'd be happy if it was only multiplayer. I'm afraid that devotion to a single player element would take away from the multi-player game, which is REALLY what ns is about.
What engine would ns2 work on?
I believe NS2's allowance for new content & new tools/engines to implement that content would make it the more enjoyable of the two for you to develop.
Until I am told an example that would indicate otherwise, I also believe it would be more likely to generate a business-maintaining or business-expanding financial base & fanbase.
Finally, I would accept (even encourage) the creation of more small games like Zen of Sudoku if it meant your next "big" game (NS related or othewise) would be closer to how you really wanted it to be.
Please discuss the 2nd and 3rd point I just made with someone more familiar with your business, its strategy, and its relation to the industry as a whole.
Were you still looking to make NS2 its own stand-alone engine or is Source the only thing you plan on using?
Making a unique game engine takes a fair share of manpower and a lot of time, but you end up with something you can build future products off of at your own leisure, i.e... no Valve saying "Get the mod done with these specs by so-and-so date if you want to have our source engine licensed to you."
Furthermore, if you make your own engine, you have a bargaining chip: say NS2 doesn't pan out, what now? Well, if you have your own engine that works well and has something to offer that Source or Havok (apologies if that's the wrong name) doesn't, license it out and fill your research budget with that.
I say skip the foreplay and make NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
What I mean is there are so many hitbox and server optimization problems with ns it's crazy, worse than any game i've ever played, because everything moves so fast. Whatever you do, please make hitboxes and netcode your number one priority. When people shoot at stuff, it should register!
NS2 might be a good game if you can replicate the "fun" factor that's in ns. It would be cool to have some trick jumping for marines and wall jumping techniques for aliens, though i hope bunnyhopping isn't in ns:2. I mean I love doing it, but i totally recognize that it makes the game inaccessible because it's really a skill you NEED to learn.
But seriously, the combination of inherent hitbox problems, unnoticed problems like the shotgun bug, and the fact that most pub servers don't get good fps because ns is so cpu intensive make this game really frustrating to pub. It's really the biggest drawback to NS IMHO. So i think you're better off fixing it with a new engine than using source which i hear has worse netcode than hl
I believe NS2's allowance for new content & new tools/engines to implement that content would make it the more enjoyable of the two for you to develop.
Until I am told an example that would indicate otherwise, I also believe it would be more likely to generate a business-maintaining or business-expanding financial base & fanbase.
Finally, I would accept (even encourage) the creation of more small games like Zen of Sudoku if it meant your next "big" game (NS related or othewise) would be closer to how you really wanted it to be.
Please discuss the 2nd and 3rd point I just made with someone more familiar with your business, its strategy, and its relation to the industry as a whole. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes.deff
- Writing our own engine would likely be out of scope for us for NS2. Source would probably be our best option.
- Either way, the game would be for sale over Steam and either way it won't require any other software (Half-life 1 or 2); it will be a standalone game, not a mod.
NS:S. NS is very fun for competitive play, and I don't want it to change.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think about it though! If you make NS Source, ..looking at the stats for Episode 1, Sin Episodes, the Ship, Red Orchestra, Day of Defeat Source, and Darwinia.. a hell of a lot of people bought them. And that would mean a hell of a lot of money pouring through Steam to you, to fund NS 2.
NS2, being made on the mass market, in a boxed version or through maybe Steam, would be able to fund even more ambitious projects. Think about it.
However, NS2 right off the bat might spell disaster for UWE. While most of us here would play it, yes, if you are unable to fund such an ambitious project... here comes the guillotine.
Go for total brilliance. I think the symbolic difference between a port of NS and the <i>best game ever</i> is important enough to strive for it. I believe you're one of the very few who can achieve a game experience that would dwarf even the upcoming Supreme Commander.
<i>I voted NS:Source. </i>
It could sell, we all know that. So let's not argue about commercial viability. What I'm interested in is timescales, making 'the game we wished we did', and risk. On the point of timescale, production of NS:S I would have thought would be far quicker than NS2. As we have a loyal core community who would immediately be involved, the faster it's done, the more people we still have, and there's nothing stopping NS2 being produced as a result of the success (or sale?) of NS:S.
On 'the game we wished we made', NS as we all agree, is a <b><i>fantastic game</b></i>. If anything, it's one of the best Team FPS's currently available, by a long way, and there's an extremely small selection of games with this much emphasis on team play. The biggest downfall of NS are the engine. Half Life simply was never intended to jump the hoops NS makes it do, and people have moved on from the HL engine. You have a massive catchment area in the form of the CSS and HL2 communities, and capitalising on that could only be a good thing, imo. Adding the ability to do every alien and marine class, ability and function as was invisioned rather than the compromises that HL forced would be delightful.
Risk? Look around. There's a clear desire for this sort of game, and a lack of quality titles. There is, however, a huge number of BF2-a-likes, which are EA inspired soulless money farms. It's lowest common denominator tripe, and there's no talent to it.
Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I see no harm in doing NS:S, especially as it can be used as a springboard to learn lessons and ensure that NS2 has the luxury of less pressure, timewise, and more chance to develop the NS world before production of a major AAA title.
- Shockwave
I think it's fairly clear that NS2 is really what is needed here, even though many of the addict gremlin yesmen that make up the current community won't approve. The original design problems need a change to be addressed and the we need something new and original to bring new faces around, even if it means shaking off some dead flesh.
i personally love ns for what it is, i like the graphics, cant say im bothered about it being made source
I've been waiting for this for ages! And I don't give a damn about NS2 because I never was really interested in it. I don't really understand why most of the users here voted for it..