<!--QuoteBegin-Shzar+Jul 10 2005, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shzar @ Jul 10 2005, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just played a game on ns_nancy where I perma-gorged. You know that res node in it's own little room adjacent to the long hallway near port hive (sorry I can't remember the name, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about). I built the node there, and two ocs, in opposite corners. They would shoot anyone walking past, and they covered every side of the res tower. They got five kills in that game.
So what's the point?
Skulks would use that little room as a stop off point. That cargo bay was a hot spot of action; aliens would hide behind the res node, marines would rush in, get ocd, then easily bitten to death. They eventually shotgunned the res and one oc, and lost much of their own.
This is just my personal experience with the efficacy of offence chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah they work well with skulks to help
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 10 2005, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 10 2005, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Renegade, the problem is that against competent marines who don't react stupidly to OCs, the functions you listed are not enough to justify the price tag. If you drop one or two they're bypassed, if you drop too many they're massively expensive and eventually GLed or sieged out. If a marine sees fit to kill an OC he can solo it by crouch-jumping at a reasonable distance and not take a single hit. Obviously it's very beneficial to the alien team to have OCs all over the place, but in an evenly matched game you won't have that kind of res and even if you did it would be better spent elsewhere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am aware of that, which is why I was very careful to use comparative terms such as "increasingly useful" and "grossly dependant on". These are relative terms, meaning that I did not explicitly claim that OC's are objectively useful, but rather implied that there usefulness is in direct correlation to how they are being used as well as who they are being used against. So yes, the better the marine team, the less effective the OC, however in no instance or place do they become "such a useless static object" (as which the topic creator referred to them as), which is the notion I was trying to defer. Ultimately, even against the best marine, "an OC" is still better than "no OC".
<!--QuoteBegin-MrGunner+Jul 10 2005, 09:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrGunner @ Jul 10 2005, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A couple of offense chambers in a building hive can easily stop a shotgun rush and most comms would rather siege then push a hive with ocs in it. They distract and eat armor which makes your skulks that much more useful. They are also good for penning marines in at endgame. Other then that they are as useless as turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A couple of OCs (20 res) means a few more meds and a few more shots from attacking marines. Chances are, aliens won't treat the "structure under attack" message as coming from the hive room.
If they do notice it's a hive, the seconds gained in their reaction is neglible compared to the cost of placing the OCs.
<b>In my opinion</b> OCs have little or no place in NS in their current state. They discourage people from learning how to use higher lifeforms, they give the illusion of being useful, they block aliens more than they discourage marines, and they're expensive.
<!--QuoteBegin-R e n e g a d e+Jul 10 2005, 11:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (R e n e g a d e @ Jul 10 2005, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... the better the marine team, the less effective the OC, however in no instance or place do they become "such a useless static object" (as which the topic creator referred to them as), which is the notion I was trying to defer. Ultimately, even against the best marine, "an OC" is still better than "no OC". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The better the marine team, the less effective the fade. Same aplies to anything really. Not really a useful statement.
An OC blocking a retreat corridor (or indeed, a node) is worse than no OC.
Even as a respectable fade I've been trapped by stuck-issues on badly OCs and died. I'm sure I'm not alone there. It's just another source of abuse for new players.
Have you never had fun placing OC's? They may be "almost useless", but setting up OC's and building yourself a Fortress can be quite amusing. Never set up an OC-Fortress with a friend?
OC's don't need to be effective, you don't need to use it. But give others the opportunity to have fun with it.
If you die as a Fade because an OC blocked you, you made the mistake. You knew the OC was there. Do you run against doors in reallife just because they were opened the last 10 days? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
dont play with new people and you probably wont see any random ocs!
somebody already said it but generally the people that want the oc spam are generally the same ones who yell about spamming turret in MS...wait till all the my games people come!
<!--QuoteBegin-Slith+Jul 10 2005, 07:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Slith @ Jul 10 2005, 07:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have you never had fun placing OC's? They may be "almost useless", but setting up OC's and building yourself a Fortress can be quite amusing. Never set up an OC-Fortress with a friend?
OC's don't need to be effective, you don't need to use it. But give others the opportunity to have fun with it.
If you die as a Fade because an OC blocked you, you made the mistake. You knew the OC was there. Do you run against doors in reallife just because they were opened the last 10 days? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhh... I don't have fun clicking one impulse after another and holding "use" for a few minutes. Nope.
And last statement - don't pretend getting stuck is not an issue in NS; it is for everybody. OC blocks, CC blocks. They're all annoying.
OCs are very useful; like anything else, you have to time their use well.
An OC in the right place can also herd marines away from hiding spots and toward certain areas of the room where they are more easily ambush-able.
An 3+ cluster of OCs helps hive defense enormously, especially in lower-number games (6v6).
In any defensive situation, having an OC invaluably draws attention away from lifeform targets. No one single object/player/ability is going to win an NS game - their uses in combination also fit different situations better. Anyway, point is, OCs aren't useless (at least not any more useless than marine turrets).
I'm getting fond memories of old v1.0x's were the alien team would oc their hive to hell and back in anticipation for the fun hmg/jp rush ^_^. Lerks/Gorges/Skulks all in the hive jumping after 3-4 jetpackers is fun stuff with 8 oc's and such. Best hive being No name because the oc's could go around the entirety of the hive and the marines would fly out of the vents circling while being fired upon. Fun stuff.
Anyways, oc's arnt neccessarilly useless. I would agree that they are mostly a waste of res and they are usually placed in pubs because people are lured in by the fact they may get extra kills by placing them. Sometimes 1/2 in a hive after its going up and the upgrade chambers are down isnt a bad idea. Works decently against soem phase/shotty rushes assuming your team is there to begin with. Although I would prefer the extra node/lerk.
You've gotta ask yourself. Would you rather have... 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs 1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jul 11 2005, 09:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 11 2005, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've gotta ask yourself. Would you rather have... 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs 1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not everyone knows how to play as a lerk, a fade or an onos... Sometimes that OC is playing much better being a static attack unit than the original creator with a lerk... or a walking fade...
or do you prefer to see an onos dying in less than 1 min?
in the very early game they are 99% worthless to drop because theres so many places to make an rt, and when a nublet goes gorge and drops a hive 30 seconds into the game you just wanna teamkill him.
but after rts are up and you win the early res war, once your team has some extra res, you can use em to stop nublets (they get raped from em) and block doors.
other than that theyre basically useless because spikes firing isnt that loud, and not many people even shoot em. with a medspamming comm the most ud get is hearing medspam outsdie the hive when that pg is goin up. still doesnt do much. id rather start with sc than have 1/3rd (small games only, something like 2 out of 6) of the team drop ocs. the ones that drop ocs before rts are one of the following:
1. a n00b that doesnt realize how much ocs suck 2. someone ruining the game wanting to get called a nub 3. someone who hit the wrong key and dropped an oc instead of upgrade (it happened to me before <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) 4. a n00b that likes to spam structures 5. COMPLETELY lack ANY form of skill of ANY kind WHATSOEVER (screwed rates, laggy, just plain sucks at games perioud, broken mouse, nub fade/lerk, etc.) yet want to get some kills
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
OCs are only useless in the hands of people who do not know how to place them. There are many earlier points on why OCs are useful and I will not repeat them.
2 of eight has stated some scenarios where OCs are definately not the number one choice. But you got to ask yourself. Is everyone a gd fade, lerk or onos?
It all depends on the scenario. OCs should not be dropped at the beginning of the game (first 1 minute) as they can be better spent on RTs and chambers. But later, people will have this extra res to spend. OCs in good positions make good defence.
I think the main issue here is not whether OCs are good or not. It is whether people know how to place them.
You don't get better at lerk/fade by dropping OCs. And trust me, being a good lerk/fade gives you much greater satisfaction than being a good OC dropper.
well lets see, theyre AWESOME at killing JPs and theyre GOOD at slowing marines down. Both of which are useful tactically and strategically. so ner. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They are useful only against the skill level of most public players. I'd say most competitive players know how to dodge the OCs, since their fire is extremely predictable and easy to avoid.
They *can* be useful, but there are alternative things to spend res on which are far, far more useful. Give a lerk an MC instead of an OC and he'll do much better.
I think ocs and provide a small distraction (obviously dropping them at the start is pointless, they should only be dropped when the team has enough res). Where I think they are useful is helping aliens fighting alongside the ocs, a marine can dodge everything and they added damage from the oc helps wear down the marine.
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jul 11 2005, 10:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 11 2005, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've gotta ask yourself. Would you rather have... 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs 1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs
<!--QuoteBegin-Goldwin+Jul 10 2005, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Goldwin @ Jul 10 2005, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If there is one thng an OC can do effectively, is hold Cargo on Tanith in the early game if marines rush it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Only when aliens have secured cargo is a game on tantith won.
Ocs have their place! It's the <span style='color:yellow'>opportunity cost</span> that makes them not worth it. Early game you NEED res towers. Not that many either - an alien team can win off of 3 rts, even 2 sometimes! Early ocs are pointless because why should you protect res towers if you haven't built any yet?
It's like buying a safe when you don't own anything valuable to put in it. Buy that valuable thing instead.
Here's an old thread by me that covers all the uses of ocs: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=91358&st=0#entry1435368' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....=0#entry1435368</a>
Its the <span style='color:yellow'>opportunity cost</span> that matters. Would you as a fade be more valuable than 4 ocs by you? Would you die instantly? Would you know where to place your ocs? (for instance... choke point outside the newly growing hive) Would you know what it meant if your ocs were attacked, and would you warn the team? Answer these kinds of questions and you've got whether the ocs are valuable.
By the way, the least skilled job is not oc placing (takes skill to know where to place them). The least skilled job is being that annoying sporespamming adrenalerk in the vent!
Double by the way... 2_of_8, on linuxmonster, marines tend to win more often that not... so I can see where you're coming from!
<!--QuoteBegin-NeOClassic+Jul 11 2005, 09:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NeOClassic @ Jul 11 2005, 09:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jul 11 2005, 09:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 11 2005, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've gotta ask yourself. Would you rather have... 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs 1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not everyone knows how to play as a lerk, a fade or an onos... Sometimes that OC is playing much better being a static attack unit than the original creator with a lerk... or a walking fade...
or do you prefer to see an onos dying in less than 1 min? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I prefer a person making a try of learning how to be better as a higher lifeform through practice rather than satisfy themselves with admitting that they don't do well and not doing anything to fix that.
Honestly, a lot of people won't run to save an oc in a pub. As a commander, I can just send one marine out to crouch jump up and down and kill the ocs and that's alien res down the drain. Sure, the guy's out of the action for a bit, but he just cost the alien team res and opened up a path so that I don't have to medspam. OCs are easily gotten rid of and just placate the new players by implying that they've done something useful. I'd rather have them fade and die so that they can get better and contribute in the future rather than have to deal with a stack of ocs outside of marine start. Because, frankly, that game's not fun. I can put up with dying to fades, lerks, skulks, and even gorges. But having a mass of ocs right outside of marine start and having to sit there because the alien team can't afford enough higher lifeforms to crack open the base just isn't fun.
And let's not forget all the people who drop OCs in place of chambers. If they weren't so attractive as a way of getting kills without trying, everyone would be better off.
A way i find oc's effective if placed right is after the game has been going for a while.
In narrow corridors have an oc stack e.g.
3 oc's on the floor then behind a row of mc's with oc's on top and if enough oc's allowed a 3rd row with mc's, with sc's and then oc's on top and then around a corner a pile of dc's healing the bunch.
Of course thats with all 3 hives and is quite effective and it can be accomplished with 2 hives with e.g. mc and dc's or sc's and dc's without dc's its pointless.
Oc's work best when you have a pile of dc's to heal them.
<!--QuoteBegin-ZiGGY+Jul 11 2005, 05:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY @ Jul 11 2005, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well lets see, theyre AWESOME at killing JPs and theyre GOOD at slowing marines down. Both of which are useful tactically and strategically. so ner. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So are good fades.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thaldarin+Jul 11 2005, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thaldarin @ Jul 11 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ZiGGY+Jul 11 2005, 05:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZiGGY @ Jul 11 2005, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well lets see, theyre AWESOME at killing JPs and theyre GOOD at slowing marines down. Both of which are useful tactically and strategically. so ner. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So are good fades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually... they arent :/ celerity focus fades vs lvl 3 hmg and shotgun jpers with welders and medspam. My moneys on the JPs cause they can avoid umbra. Then theyll whack a PG up and you got yourself a game son. If youve got onos being put into retreat in a high end high res game a fade wont save em, ocs would ;/
<!--QuoteBegin-princess+Jul 10 2005, 04:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (princess @ Jul 10 2005, 04:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're forgetting the psychological power of some OCs. A lot of people see some OCs and decide to run the other way.
Also they give away marine locations. There's always some muppet happy to shoot a round into an OC, which alerts aliens to their presence.
Also, if they do actually manage to hit marines, they can help make life easier for aliens to kill them.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> Gorge power <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Those are the same tools that usually drop them when they are on the other side.
I've seen the most idiotic marines get held back by one OC, when 3 seconds of focus fire would destroy it.
Must be the scripts that give the smart players the advantage.
OCs in red room in Via on ns_nothing.........fade goes in gets its butt shot off by hmgs and sgs in such a small cramped room plus the vents going out=dead fade. Better to have OC cluster in red room....than deal with pg and marines with toys.
Comments
So what's the point?
Skulks would use that little room as a stop off point. That cargo bay was a hot spot of action; aliens would hide behind the res node, marines would rush in, get ocd, then easily bitten to death. They eventually shotgunned the res and one oc, and lost much of their own.
This is just my personal experience with the efficacy of offence chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah they work well with skulks to help
I am aware of that, which is why I was very careful to use comparative terms such as "increasingly useful" and "grossly dependant on". These are relative terms, meaning that I did not explicitly claim that OC's are objectively useful, but rather implied that there usefulness is in direct correlation to how they are being used as well as who they are being used against.
So yes, the better the marine team, the less effective the OC, however in no instance or place do they become "such a useless static object" (as which the topic creator referred to them as), which is the notion I was trying to defer. Ultimately, even against the best marine, "an OC" is still better than "no OC".
A couple of OCs (20 res) means a few more meds and a few more shots from attacking marines. Chances are, aliens won't treat the "structure under attack" message as coming from the hive room.
If they do notice it's a hive, the seconds gained in their reaction is neglible compared to the cost of placing the OCs.
<b>In my opinion</b> OCs have little or no place in NS in their current state. They discourage people from learning how to use higher lifeforms, they give the illusion of being useful, they block aliens more than they discourage marines, and they're expensive.
The better the marine team, the less effective the fade. Same aplies to anything really. Not really a useful statement.
An OC blocking a retreat corridor (or indeed, a node) is worse than no OC.
Even as a respectable fade I've been trapped by stuck-issues on badly OCs and died. I'm sure I'm not alone there. It's just another source of abuse for new players.
They may be "almost useless", but setting up OC's and building yourself a Fortress can be quite amusing. Never set up an OC-Fortress with a friend?
OC's don't need to be effective, you don't need to use it. But give others the opportunity to have fun with it.
If you die as a Fade because an OC blocked you, you made the mistake. You knew the OC was there. Do you run against doors in reallife just because they were opened the last 10 days? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
somebody already said it but generally the people that want the oc spam are generally the same ones who yell about spamming turret in MS...wait till all the my games people come!
They may be "almost useless", but setting up OC's and building yourself a Fortress can be quite amusing. Never set up an OC-Fortress with a friend?
OC's don't need to be effective, you don't need to use it. But give others the opportunity to have fun with it.
If you die as a Fade because an OC blocked you, you made the mistake. You knew the OC was there. Do you run against doors in reallife just because they were opened the last 10 days? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh... I don't have fun clicking one impulse after another and holding "use" for a few minutes. Nope.
And last statement - don't pretend getting stuck is not an issue in NS; it is for everybody. OC blocks, CC blocks. They're all annoying.
QFT
An OC in the right place can also herd marines away from hiding spots and toward certain areas of the room where they are more easily ambush-able.
An 3+ cluster of OCs helps hive defense enormously, especially in lower-number games (6v6).
In any defensive situation, having an OC invaluably draws attention away from lifeform targets. No one single object/player/ability is going to win an NS game - their uses in combination also fit different situations better. Anyway, point is, OCs aren't useless (at least not any more useless than marine turrets).
Anyways, oc's arnt neccessarilly useless. I would agree that they are mostly a waste of res and they are usually placed in pubs because people are lured in by the fact they may get extra kills by placing them. Sometimes 1/2 in a hive after its going up and the upgrade chambers are down isnt a bad idea. Works decently against soem phase/shotty rushes assuming your team is there to begin with. Although I would prefer the extra node/lerk.
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs
1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm?
The aliens pratically closed the map after placing a lot of OCs in mess hall and in all the other exits from the marine start.
Offence Chambers are not that useless...
But I have to agree with you in one thing, sometimes they are placed in wrong places...
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs
1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not everyone knows how to play as a lerk, a fade or an onos...
Sometimes that OC is playing much better being a static attack unit than the original creator with a lerk... or a walking fade...
or do you prefer to see an onos dying in less than 1 min?
but after rts are up and you win the early res war, once your team has some extra res, you can use em to stop nublets (they get raped from em) and block doors.
other than that theyre basically useless because spikes firing isnt that loud, and not many people even shoot em. with a medspamming comm the most ud get is hearing medspam outsdie the hive when that pg is goin up. still doesnt do much. id rather start with sc than have 1/3rd (small games only, something like 2 out of 6) of the team drop ocs. the ones that drop ocs before rts are one of the following:
1. a n00b that doesnt realize how much ocs suck
2. someone ruining the game wanting to get called a nub
3. someone who hit the wrong key and dropped an oc instead of upgrade (it happened to me before <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
4. a n00b that likes to spam structures
5. COMPLETELY lack ANY form of skill of ANY kind WHATSOEVER (screwed rates, laggy, just plain sucks at games perioud, broken mouse, nub fade/lerk, etc.) yet want to get some kills
2 of eight has stated some scenarios where OCs are definately not the number one choice. But you got to ask yourself. Is everyone a gd fade, lerk or onos?
It all depends on the scenario. OCs should not be dropped at the beginning of the game (first 1 minute) as they can be better spent on RTs and chambers. But later, people will have this extra res to spend. OCs in good positions make good defence.
I think the main issue here is not whether OCs are good or not. It is whether people know how to place them.
remove cloacking seriiously
They *can* be useful, but there are alternative things to spend res on which are far, far more useful. Give a lerk an MC instead of an OC and he'll do much better.
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs
1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Are you people ignoring my argument?
Agreed. Only when aliens have secured cargo is a game on tantith won.
Ocs have their place! It's the <span style='color:yellow'>opportunity cost</span> that makes them not worth it. Early game you NEED res towers. Not that many either - an alien team can win off of 3 rts, even 2 sometimes! Early ocs are pointless because why should you protect res towers if you haven't built any yet?
It's like buying a safe when you don't own anything valuable to put in it. Buy that valuable thing instead.
Here's an old thread by me that covers all the uses of ocs:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=91358&st=0#entry1435368' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....=0#entry1435368</a>
Its the <span style='color:yellow'>opportunity cost</span> that matters. Would you as a fade be more valuable than 4 ocs by you? Would you die instantly? Would you know where to place your ocs? (for instance... choke point outside the newly growing hive) Would you know what it meant if your ocs were attacked, and would you warn the team? Answer these kinds of questions and you've got whether the ocs are valuable.
By the way, the least skilled job is not oc placing (takes skill to know where to place them). The least skilled job is being that annoying sporespamming adrenalerk in the vent!
Double by the way... 2_of_8, on linuxmonster, marines tend to win more often that not... so I can see where you're coming from!
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, upgrades available to the whole team throughout the game and around the map, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, bringing in 225 res in a standard 15-min game, 37 res per person, or 3 OCs
1 Lerk, able to weaken the Marines with spores a lot better than OCs can with spores, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, no need for elaboration here, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not everyone knows how to play as a lerk, a fade or an onos...
Sometimes that OC is playing much better being a static attack unit than the original creator with a lerk... or a walking fade...
or do you prefer to see an onos dying in less than 1 min? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer a person making a try of learning how to be better as a higher lifeform through practice rather than satisfy themselves with admitting that they don't do well and not doing anything to fix that.
Honestly, a lot of people won't run to save an oc in a pub. As a commander, I can just send one marine out to crouch jump up and down and kill the ocs and that's alien res down the drain. Sure, the guy's out of the action for a bit, but he just cost the alien team res and opened up a path so that I don't have to medspam. OCs are easily gotten rid of and just placate the new players by implying that they've done something useful. I'd rather have them fade and die so that they can get better and contribute in the future rather than have to deal with a stack of ocs outside of marine start. Because, frankly, that game's not fun. I can put up with dying to fades, lerks, skulks, and even gorges. But having a mass of ocs right outside of marine start and having to sit there because the alien team can't afford enough higher lifeforms to crack open the base just isn't fun.
And let's not forget all the people who drop OCs in place of chambers. If they weren't so attractive as a way of getting kills without trying, everyone would be better off.
In narrow corridors have an oc stack e.g.
3 oc's on the floor then behind a row of mc's with oc's on top and if enough oc's allowed a 3rd row with mc's, with sc's and then oc's on top and then around a corner a pile of dc's healing the bunch.
Of course thats with all 3 hives and is quite effective and it can be accomplished with 2 hives with e.g. mc and dc's or sc's and dc's without dc's its pointless.
Oc's work best when you have a pile of dc's to heal them.
So are good fades.
So are good fades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually... they arent :/ celerity focus fades vs lvl 3 hmg and shotgun jpers with welders and medspam. My moneys on the JPs cause they can avoid umbra. Then theyll whack a PG up and you got yourself a game son. If youve got onos being put into retreat in a high end high res game a fade wont save em, ocs would ;/
Also they give away marine locations. There's always some muppet happy to shoot a round into an OC, which alerts aliens to their presence.
Also, if they do actually manage to hit marines, they can help make life easier for aliens to kill them.
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> Gorge power <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are the same tools that usually drop them when they are on the other side.
I've seen the most idiotic marines get held back by one OC, when 3 seconds of focus fire would destroy it.
Must be the scripts that give the smart players the advantage.