ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
And how long into the game was that? Also, with 2 OCs and a RT, that's almost enough for a hive. Unless the aliens were already SWIMMING in res, it could've been better spent elsewhere...like upgrade chambers.
And if someone else already got 3 upgrade chambers, and someone else has the hive, and more gorges dropped RTs, then the game has way too many players than NS is balanced for.
<!--QuoteBegin-Social Outcast+Jul 11 2005, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Social Outcast @ Jul 11 2005, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OCs in red room in Via on ns_nothing.........fade goes in gets its butt shot off by hmgs and sgs in such a small cramped room plus the vents going out=dead fade. Better to have OC cluster in red room....than deal with pg and marines with toys. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If a Fade won't survive, what will a Gorge do? Sneak in there as a Skulk undetected somehow and then drop five million OCs at once?
Unless, in your scenario, the Gorge drops OCs in there beforehand. But assuming they have HMGs, they'll also have access to grenade launchers. That room is incredibly easy to grenade out because of the vents.
Red Room is an extreme exception. I can't think of any other areas in the game that need to be lamed up as badly as Red Room does. I don't understand what you guys are trying to prove by claiming that OCs are sort of useful in some situations; in the majority of situations, they are obviously inferior to all the other ways to spend an equal amount of res. OCs would be incredibly useful if they were free, but they're far from it.
OC’s are a tool and can be useful. That depends also on the map, starting hive and player count. For example on Veil with the starting hive “Cargo” I think it’s a very good tactic to lame up the chokepoint between Topo and Emergency Noozle. That way you’ve closed an area completely from marine access
The noobs will fight to death by trying to kill the OC’s. The better players will try to kill you or just jump over them, but they get damaged and you can warn your team mates if a marine break through.
The only other route to Pipeline is through Cargo. With 30 resources you have secured the second hive and 2 resource towers pretty well.
Another typical location for OC’s is Cargo on Tanith. As most public player are not that good in skulking OC’s can prevent marines entering this very marine friendly area early in the game. It can give you the valuable time for getting Fusion up.
I'd rather "waste" the res on the OC and have a live gorge than waste the res on a gorge that dies right after placing the RT and then losing the RT as well.
Your first RT should obviously be built someplace fairly safe. Your second RT will take a while to get the res for, and will probably be built somewhere that isn't as safe. By placing the OC first you have a reasonable chance of surviving the rambo as a lone gorge if you're any good with your spit and OC-dancing, (it helps that commanders often don't worry about medding a marine up against a gorge) thus allowing you to get that second RT.
Yeah, if marines are smart/patient they'll travel in groups and you've wasted the res. Often they're not though.
While OCs may not be game winning on their own, they still can be quite useful in the right situations.
The key is to not treat them as autonomous. If you have one marine vs one OC, the marine will either run by it (still reaching wherever he was planning to ninja to), or kill it from safety of a corner or by crouch jumping. Obviously not worth the 10 res.
If you have 2-3 OCs in an area, the one marine can still kill them all, at the cost of a couple clips of LMG ammo. Not worth the 20-30 res.
<b>BUT!</b> If you have 2 OCs in and area, AND a skulk--then that skulk can take out several marines quite easily, when he would have certainly died without the suport of the OCs. Additional alien presence only adds to the effectiveness of the OCs.
Since the OCs can't move, and are only effective in combination with aliens, this is where placement comes into play. They can be useful when placed in areas that are important to defend already, where you don't mind the requirement of having an alien nearby to defend the OCs. This is obviously map dependent, and somewhat subjective as well. Which locations are strategically important enough to make spending res on fortifying them, AND committing aliens to defending them, worthwhile? You may not agree on the precise answers--but the OCs do have their uses.
i think the original poster was trying to say your not helping your team by hiding around the map the entire game just dropping an oc here and there randomly or creating random walls of lame at on strategic points.
yes oc's have certain advantages BUT you don't need 3 oc's in your starting hive within the first min of the game
If a team really know what they are doing then I don't see anything wrong with having instant OC's placed...I've done so many times myself in fact...of course, I place OC's then on key locations to limit marine movement as much as possible...most of the time the OC does it's job superbly...
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between: 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm?
Then tell me a situation when you'd rather have an OC than anything else.
And a counter to a point someone's about to make: "5 well-placed OCs are better than a walker fade". Let me tell you how someone stops being a walker fade.
Man you're not being ignored on purpose, you're just being ignored cause it's easier for people to just write whatever they feel like instead of reading and responding to arguments. Besides, everyone knows fades are better than 5 Ocs in the hive, but not everyone can actually fade well enough to last longer than those 5 OCs will.
Really your argument is: why do players play badly? Don't they know they'll do better if they play well? Well gee whiz, what could the answer possibly be?
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jul 12 2005, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 12 2005, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It feels like I'm being ignored here.
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between: 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Chambers if they're needed. 2. If Nodes are free and secure the 2 Nodes 3. If i'm good at fadeing 1. If there's a hive free
There's always a "if". All depends on the situation. OC can be useful. Not spammed randomly but in key areas. Most effective if guarded by an alien.
That's what I'm most complaining about. We need upgrade chambers, they're dropping OCs. We need a hive, they're dropping OCs. We need a fade/res nodes/lerk, they're dropping OCs.
And what I'm saying... is don't drop OCs when there are better things to do with your res.
No--what your saying is, there are ALWAYS better things to do with your res, and we're saying that SOMETIMES its ok to drop OCs. I easily admit that most of the time there are other things that are more important to build. But not ALWAYS!
I use OCs as a late game jetpack counter in pubs... But then again, pubbers are stupid and always rush the hive if they have jetpacks. Jetpacks are just as good at putting up seiges as heavies are, since they are impossible to hit for long periods of time, and can chase down retreating lifeforms with ease.
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jul 12 2005, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 12 2005, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It feels like I'm being ignored here.
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between: 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm?
Then tell me a situation when you'd rather have an OC than anything else.
And a counter to a point someone's about to make: "5 well-placed OCs are better than a walker fade". Let me tell you how someone stops being a walker fade.
By fading. k?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> None of the situations you described are all that logical, due to the fact that everyone agrees that the player in question is either new, has little to no skill, or both.
Chambers? Yes, I would rather have chambers, but chances are someone else has already dropped them.
Nodes? Again, if the only person that is capping nodes is this unskilled player, then it won't matter what happens since we have already lost. Chances are that all the defendable nodes have already been capped, so it is a question between him/her Gorging and dying while the node is knifed (-25 res), as someone mentioned already.
Higher lifeforms? Do not even pretend that you have never yelled at or blamed an unskilled player for a game loss when he/she went Fade and died immediately. There is a term for such a player: Res ****. I would much rather have 5 OCs of marginal utility laying around instead of a player who just lost 50 res on a Fade and then leaves the map after the entire team screams his/her ear off. Besides, Classic is not the place you should be training to become better at a Fade - Combat is, since dying has nowhere near the same impact there. Same deal with Lerks and Onos. If I had a choice between wasted res (i.e. no damage/kills) on lifeforms or OCs, I'd pick OCs every time.
Hive? Assuming for a moment the player even knew where the hive was located and aliens were actually willing to defend that location, then yes, I'd like a hive over 4 OCs. But what if we already have two hives, with the third being locked down? What if another person has already said they'll drop the Hive?
Regardless, your argument here is hopelessly fallacious since it is entirely situational and does not even begin to scratch the surface of the actual cost/benefit analysis. How do you calculate, in res numbers, the benefit of influencing a skilled player to go a different way, or to spend the next minute shooting your OC, or take a chunk of his/her health? It seems to me any such calculation would have to be entirely proportional to the player's skill. OCs are useless to drop if you can Fade and take out 20+ marines before dying. On the other hand, OCs are quite valuable if it is unlikely you will ever actually be able to bite a marine once, and are otherwise going to amount to not much more than RFK and a boost in marine morale ("Fade down!").
Don't lose sight of the fact that this is still a Real-Time Strategy game, and that OCs can possibly (and often do, in an objective sense) have some strategic value.
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jul 12 2005, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 12 2005, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It feels like I'm being ignored here.
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between: 3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs 2 nodes, or 3 OCs 1 Fade, or 5 OCs 1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm?
Then tell me a situation when you'd rather have an OC than anything else.
And a counter to a point someone's about to make: "5 well-placed OCs are better than a walker fade". Let me tell you how someone stops being a walker fade.
By fading. k? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I can't trust other players to protect my res nodes, I will fortify them with OCs in certain situations, especially at key locations (like double res in veil and origin).
Protecting my 40 res investment (gorge + 2 rt) with 20 res in OCs (with me keeping an eye on it) works for me. I also sometimes use them as an early-game deterrent to keep marines avoiding parts of the map for a little while.
--- Edit ---
<!--QuoteBegin-Red Raven+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Raven)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't lose sight of the fact that this is still a Real-Time Strategy game, and that OCs can possibly (and often do, in an objective sense) have some strategic value.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I mean. Even though they aren't always the best solution, they do have their purposes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Red Raven+Jul 13 2005, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Raven @ Jul 13 2005, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Higher lifeforms? Do not even pretend that you have never yelled at or blamed an unskilled player for a game loss when he/she went Fade and died immediately. There is a term for such a player: Res ****. I would much rather have 5 OCs of marginal utility laying around instead of a player who just lost 50 res on a Fade and then leaves the map after the entire team screams his/her ear off. Besides, Classic is not the place you should be training to become better at a Fade - Combat is, since dying has nowhere near the same impact there. Same deal with Lerks and Onos. If I had a choice between wasted res (i.e. no damage/kills) on lifeforms or OCs, I'd pick OCs every time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Just one thing I have time to focus on here. I am not pretending; I simply do not get mad at players whose lifeforms die (unless it's my own <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), be it after 1 kill, after 10 or after 100. I understand that they might not be playing too well that day, or any other day, or they might not play NS as much as others, or maybe they don't play that life-form much, or whatever reason.
Sure, if I see a 1-hive sensory Onos rushing a group of HMGs, I'll get mad at him for not dropping a hive or at least doing something more sensible like fading, but if a player evolved a life-form that was needed at the time and died due to insufficient skill or whatever else, I won't get mad. I understand that, frankly, not everyone plays at top-notch levels, and I don't blame anyone for that.
I think I went a bit off-topic there, but yeah. Don't blame players for dying if they aren't good enough. That's... another request of mine in this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> That might encourage players to go higher-lifeform more, and not worry about getting yelled at when dying.
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Jul 13 2005, 08:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 13 2005, 08:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Red Raven+Jul 13 2005, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Raven @ Jul 13 2005, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Higher lifeforms? Do not even pretend that you have never yelled at or blamed an unskilled player for a game loss when he/she went Fade and died immediately. There is a term for such a player: Res ****. I would much rather have 5 OCs of marginal utility laying around instead of a player who just lost 50 res on a Fade and then leaves the map after the entire team screams his/her ear off. Besides, Classic is not the place you should be training to become better at a Fade - Combat is, since dying has nowhere near the same impact there. Same deal with Lerks and Onos. If I had a choice between wasted res (i.e. no damage/kills) on lifeforms or OCs, I'd pick OCs every time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just one thing I have time to focus on here. I am not pretending; I simply do not get mad at players whose lifeforms die (unless it's my own <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), be it after 1 kill, after 10 or after 100. I understand that they might not be playing too well that day, or any other day, or they might not play NS as much as others, or maybe they don't play that life-form much, or whatever reason.
Sure, if I see a 1-hive sensory Onos rushing a group of HMGs, I'll get mad at him for not dropping a hive or at least doing something more sensible like fading, but if a player evolved a life-form that was needed at the time and died due to insufficient skill or whatever else, I won't get mad. I understand that, frankly, not everyone plays at top-notch levels, and I don't blame anyone for that.
I think I went a bit off-topic there, but yeah. Don't blame players for dying if they aren't good enough. That's... another request of mine in this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> That might encourage players to go higher-lifeform more, and not worry about getting yelled at when dying.
We can summarize this in "think before you invest your resources“. It’s the same with go “Fade or Build 2nd Hive”. What’s the better choice depends on the situation.
Chamber also gets dropped most times not to their full potential.
<!--QuoteBegin-Scylla+Jul 15 2005, 04:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Scylla @ Jul 15 2005, 04:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We can summarize this in "think before you invest your resources“. It’s the same with go “Fade or Build 2nd Hive”. What’s the better choice depends on the situation.
Chamber also gets dropped most times not to their full potential. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As a rule of thumb ocs can never reach thier value point in the early game. Ocs only have value once RTs, and probably all the upgrade chambers, are already dropped. If your thinking before you drop OCs you need to be thinking along the lines as "Do we have enough RTs that this waste of res won't hurt me by the end of the game?"
The only problem I have with ocs is when they are dropped almost immediatly after the game starts. Like one time on veil, I gorged to drop an rt in double in the early part of the game, and another guy was gorging next to me. I was thinking "cool, 2 early rts", but it turns out he just gorged in double to go back to our hive and drop 2 ocs. o_O
there is a purpose for the oc...some might not find it significant. but ocs placed on chokepoints delays time. this little amt of time delayed helps aliens in many ways..like a fade to sucessfully gestate out..or onos...or distract marines while u can backstab from behind.
<!--QuoteBegin-oOgA+Jul 15 2005, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (oOgA @ Jul 15 2005, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> there is a purpose for the oc...some might not find it significant. but ocs placed on chokepoints delays time. this little amt of time delayed helps aliens in many ways..like a fade to sucessfully gestate out..or onos...or distract marines while u can backstab from behind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo.
<!--QuoteBegin-oOgA+Jul 15 2005, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (oOgA @ Jul 15 2005, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> there is a purpose for the oc...some might not find it significant. but ocs placed on chokepoints delays time. this little amt of time delayed helps aliens in many ways..like a fade to sucessfully gestate out..or onos...or distract marines while u can backstab from behind. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do you hate America?
I think that most of you are asking and answering the wrong question.
The real issue here isn't if OCs are ever, given every conceivable situation, useful. The real issue is <i>Are offense chambers worth their current price tag given their limited viability and effectiveness?</i>
I contend that they are not currently worth ten resources each.
<!--QuoteBegin-stallioN+Jul 15 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (stallioN @ Jul 15 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On the NSA Veterans server you don't have to worry about OCs because everyone saves for Fade <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> HEY SOME OF US LERK TOO
I hate those ppl too who go gorge in the first minute and drop a oc instead of a node. But those are most times newbies. Just tell em "Hey if you drop that rt first you will get res faster and can drop even more oc's!" most will even listen <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And i don't think they are absolutely useless. I think they got their place. You really can't tell me you want a newbie lerk/fade/onos that dies in 10 seconds and wastes res even faster than oc's.
Oc's are the way for new ppl to help the team because new ppl generaly are no use at all as lerk/fade/onos. And how will they get better at beeing an lerk/fade/onos when getting shoot death by the first marine they encounter? Co_ is there to learn that stuff. If you go only fade and suck at it on ns_ you are no help at all for the team, the marines get only a good laugh. Those ppl **** me even more off than those "oc first"dropper. All they do is go fade and die in seconds wasting 100 res for no gain at all.
If i got a choice over a node lamed up and secruing a area with oc or a walker fade that dies without killing one marine i will always take the oc's.
And i've played a few games where only gorges build tons of oc in the right places and gained control over the whole map and won by this. After the map is secured you got all resnodes up and a good resflow. At this point you can have your 10 second walker-fades as it won't hurt the team that much if he dies. That's how i learned to lerk/fade/onos, by gestating to them in endgame when victory was sure and it wouldn't mean doom for the team when i die. I didn't learn it by reswhoring from the start of the game and going fade asap just to die and leave my team disappointed by those lost 50 res.
Comments
And if someone else already got 3 upgrade chambers, and someone else has the hive, and more gorges dropped RTs, then the game has way too many players than NS is balanced for.
If a Fade won't survive, what will a Gorge do? Sneak in there as a Skulk undetected somehow and then drop five million OCs at once?
Unless, in your scenario, the Gorge drops OCs in there beforehand. But assuming they have HMGs, they'll also have access to grenade launchers. That room is incredibly easy to grenade out because of the vents.
The noobs will fight to death by trying to kill the OC’s. The better players will try to kill you or just jump over them, but they get damaged and you can warn your team mates if a marine break through.
The only other route to Pipeline is through Cargo. With 30 resources you have secured the second hive and 2 resource towers pretty well.
Another typical location for OC’s is Cargo on Tanith. As most public player are not that good in skulking OC’s can prevent marines entering this very marine friendly area early in the game. It can give you the valuable time for getting Fusion up.
Only for pub use.
Your first RT should obviously be built someplace fairly safe. Your second RT will take a while to get the res for, and will probably be built somewhere that isn't as safe. By placing the OC first you have a reasonable chance of surviving the rambo as a lone gorge if you're any good with your spit and OC-dancing, (it helps that commanders often don't worry about medding a marine up against a gorge) thus allowing you to get that second RT.
Yeah, if marines are smart/patient they'll travel in groups and you've wasted the res. Often they're not though.
The key is to not treat them as autonomous. If you have one marine vs one OC, the marine will either run by it (still reaching wherever he was planning to ninja to), or kill it from safety of a corner or by crouch jumping. Obviously not worth the 10 res.
If you have 2-3 OCs in an area, the one marine can still kill them all, at the cost of a couple clips of LMG ammo. Not worth the 20-30 res.
<b>BUT!</b> If you have 2 OCs in and area, AND a skulk--then that skulk can take out several marines quite easily, when he would have certainly died without the suport of the OCs. Additional alien presence only adds to the effectiveness of the OCs.
Since the OCs can't move, and are only effective in combination with aliens, this is where placement comes into play. They can be useful when placed in areas that are important to defend already, where you don't mind the requirement of having an alien nearby to defend the OCs. This is obviously map dependent, and somewhat subjective as well. Which locations are strategically important enough to make spending res on fortifying them, AND committing aliens to defending them, worthwhile? You may not agree on the precise answers--but the OCs do have their uses.
yes oc's have certain advantages BUT you don't need 3 oc's in your starting hive within the first min of the game
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between:
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm?
Then tell me a situation when you'd rather have an OC than anything else.
And a counter to a point someone's about to make: "5 well-placed OCs are better than a walker fade". Let me tell you how someone stops being a walker fade.
By fading. k?
Really your argument is: why do players play badly? Don't they know they'll do better if they play well? Well gee whiz, what could the answer possibly be?
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between:
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Chambers if they're needed.
2. If Nodes are free and secure the 2 Nodes
3. If i'm good at fadeing
1. If there's a hive free
There's always a "if". All depends on the situation. OC can be useful. Not spammed randomly but in key areas. Most effective if guarded by an alien.
And what I'm saying... is don't drop OCs when there are better things to do with your res.
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between:
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm?
Then tell me a situation when you'd rather have an OC than anything else.
And a counter to a point someone's about to make: "5 well-placed OCs are better than a walker fade". Let me tell you how someone stops being a walker fade.
By fading. k?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
None of the situations you described are all that logical, due to the fact that everyone agrees that the player in question is either new, has little to no skill, or both.
Chambers? Yes, I would rather have chambers, but chances are someone else has already dropped them.
Nodes? Again, if the only person that is capping nodes is this unskilled player, then it won't matter what happens since we have already lost. Chances are that all the defendable nodes have already been capped, so it is a question between him/her Gorging and dying while the node is knifed (-25 res), as someone mentioned already.
Higher lifeforms? Do not even pretend that you have never yelled at or blamed an unskilled player for a game loss when he/she went Fade and died immediately. There is a term for such a player: Res ****. I would much rather have 5 OCs of marginal utility laying around instead of a player who just lost 50 res on a Fade and then leaves the map after the entire team screams his/her ear off. Besides, Classic is not the place you should be training to become better at a Fade - Combat is, since dying has nowhere near the same impact there. Same deal with Lerks and Onos. If I had a choice between wasted res (i.e. no damage/kills) on lifeforms or OCs, I'd pick OCs every time.
Hive? Assuming for a moment the player even knew where the hive was located and aliens were actually willing to defend that location, then yes, I'd like a hive over 4 OCs. But what if we already have two hives, with the third being locked down? What if another person has already said they'll drop the Hive?
Regardless, your argument here is hopelessly fallacious since it is entirely situational and does not even begin to scratch the surface of the actual cost/benefit analysis. How do you calculate, in res numbers, the benefit of influencing a skilled player to go a different way, or to spend the next minute shooting your OC, or take a chunk of his/her health? It seems to me any such calculation would have to be entirely proportional to the player's skill. OCs are useless to drop if you can Fade and take out 20+ marines before dying. On the other hand, OCs are quite valuable if it is unlikely you will ever actually be able to bite a marine once, and are otherwise going to amount to not much more than RFK and a boost in marine morale ("Fade down!").
Don't lose sight of the fact that this is still a Real-Time Strategy game, and that OCs can possibly (and often do, in an objective sense) have some strategic value.
Again. Answer this simple question - assuming you have little res, and are deciding between:
3 MCs/SCs/DCs, or 3 OCs
2 nodes, or 3 OCs
1 Fade, or 5 OCs
1 Hive, or 4 OCs
Hmm?
Then tell me a situation when you'd rather have an OC than anything else.
And a counter to a point someone's about to make: "5 well-placed OCs are better than a walker fade". Let me tell you how someone stops being a walker fade.
By fading. k? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I can't trust other players to protect my res nodes, I will fortify them with OCs in certain situations, especially at key locations (like double res in veil and origin).
Protecting my 40 res investment (gorge + 2 rt) with 20 res in OCs (with me keeping an eye on it) works for me. I also sometimes use them as an early-game deterrent to keep marines avoiding parts of the map for a little while.
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<!--QuoteBegin-Red Raven+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Red Raven)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't lose sight of the fact that this is still a Real-Time Strategy game, and that OCs can possibly (and often do, in an objective sense) have some strategic value.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I mean. Even though they aren't always the best solution, they do have their purposes.
Just one thing I have time to focus on here. I am not pretending; I simply do not get mad at players whose lifeforms die (unless it's my own <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), be it after 1 kill, after 10 or after 100. I understand that they might not be playing too well that day, or any other day, or they might not play NS as much as others, or maybe they don't play that life-form much, or whatever reason.
Sure, if I see a 1-hive sensory Onos rushing a group of HMGs, I'll get mad at him for not dropping a hive or at least doing something more sensible like fading, but if a player evolved a life-form that was needed at the time and died due to insufficient skill or whatever else, I won't get mad. I understand that, frankly, not everyone plays at top-notch levels, and I don't blame anyone for that.
I think I went a bit off-topic there, but yeah. Don't blame players for dying if they aren't good enough. That's... another request of mine in this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> That might encourage players to go higher-lifeform more, and not worry about getting yelled at when dying.
Mm-k?
Just one thing I have time to focus on here. I am not pretending; I simply do not get mad at players whose lifeforms die (unless it's my own <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->), be it after 1 kill, after 10 or after 100. I understand that they might not be playing too well that day, or any other day, or they might not play NS as much as others, or maybe they don't play that life-form much, or whatever reason.
Sure, if I see a 1-hive sensory Onos rushing a group of HMGs, I'll get mad at him for not dropping a hive or at least doing something more sensible like fading, but if a player evolved a life-form that was needed at the time and died due to insufficient skill or whatever else, I won't get mad. I understand that, frankly, not everyone plays at top-notch levels, and I don't blame anyone for that.
I think I went a bit off-topic there, but yeah. Don't blame players for dying if they aren't good enough. That's... another request of mine in this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> That might encourage players to go higher-lifeform more, and not worry about getting yelled at when dying.
Mm-k? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Utopic.
Chamber also gets dropped most times not to their full potential.
Chamber also gets dropped most times not to their full potential. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a rule of thumb ocs can never reach thier value point in the early game. Ocs only have value once RTs, and probably all the upgrade chambers, are already dropped. If your thinking before you drop OCs you need to be thinking along the lines as "Do we have enough RTs that this waste of res won't hurt me by the end of the game?"
Bingo.
Why do you hate America?
The real issue here isn't if OCs are ever, given every conceivable situation, useful. The real issue is <i>Are offense chambers worth their current price tag given their limited viability and effectiveness?</i>
I contend that they are not currently worth ten resources each.
HEY SOME OF US LERK TOO
And i don't think they are absolutely useless. I think they got their place.
You really can't tell me you want a newbie lerk/fade/onos that dies in 10 seconds and wastes res even faster than oc's.
Oc's are the way for new ppl to help the team because new ppl generaly are no use at all as lerk/fade/onos.
And how will they get better at beeing an lerk/fade/onos when getting shoot death by the first marine they encounter?
Co_ is there to learn that stuff. If you go only fade and suck at it on ns_ you are no help at all for the team, the marines get only a good laugh.
Those ppl **** me even more off than those "oc first"dropper. All they do is go fade and die in seconds wasting 100 res for no gain at all.
If i got a choice over a node lamed up and secruing a area with oc or a walker fade that dies without killing one marine i will always take the oc's.
And i've played a few games where only gorges build tons of oc in the right places and gained control over the whole map and won by this. After the map is secured you got all resnodes up and a good resflow. At this point you can have your 10 second walker-fades as it won't hurt the team that much if he dies.
That's how i learned to lerk/fade/onos, by gestating to them in endgame when victory was sure and it wouldn't mean doom for the team when i die.
I didn't learn it by reswhoring from the start of the game and going fade asap just to die and leave my team disappointed by those lost 50 res.