Offence Chambers

2_of_Eight · July 2005

<div class="IPBDescription">I've waited long enough</div> Time to let all the rage out, perhaps some will listen.

I do not understand why people place OC's. Do they provide better defence than, let's say, a team with an additional upgrade chamber might? Are 3 of them better than a lerk? 5 of them better than a fade or hive? 2 of them better than a res node?

I simply do not underestand the reasoning behind this. Why would anyone ever drop such a useless static object? Please, do not even try to argue against that 1 DC/MC/SC is better than 1 OC. It's true, everybody knows/should know it, yet they continue dropping OCs.

It pisses me off the most in the beginning of the game. Someone goes gorge immideately - I'm happy, someone's dropping a res node or an upgrade chamber. Nope, all I see is an OC dropped in the hive or some useless area. <b>Why?</b>

Right now as I'm playing, a gorge just dropped an OC in subsector hive on nancy as soon as the game started, and is waiting to drop another one. I'm telling him not to... he doesn't listen, and drops another one in 5 res.

This has got to be the most annoying thing that I have ever seen in NS. Annoys me more than broken hitboxes, skewed over-dependence on fades, and every other problem in the game. Grrrr.

Pithlit · July 2005

just make the upgrade chambers shoot spikes and remove OCs completly.
That would make both sides happy.

Firewater · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Jul 10 2005, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Time to let all the rage out, perhaps some will listen.

I do not understand why people place OC's. Do they provide better defence than, let's say, a team with an additional upgrade chamber might? Are 3 of them better than a lerk? 5 of them better than a fade or hive? 2 of them better than a res node?

I simply do not underestand the reasoning behind this. Why would anyone ever drop such a useless static object? Please, do not even try to argue against that 1 DC/MC/SC is better than 1 OC. It's true, everybody knows/should know it, yet they continue dropping OCs.

It pisses me off the most in the beginning of the game. Someone goes gorge immideately - I'm happy, someone's dropping a res node or an upgrade chamber. Nope, all I see is an OC dropped in the hive or some useless area. <b>Why?</b>

Right now as I'm playing, a gorge just dropped an OC in subsector hive on nancy as soon as the game started, and is waiting to drop another one. I'm telling him not to... he doesn't listen, and drops another one in 5 res.

This has got to be the most annoying thing that I have ever seen in NS. Annoys me more than broken hitboxes, skewed over-dependence on fades, and every other problem in the game. Grrrr.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
OC's are a perfect way to obtain kills without requiring any shred of talent.

That is why they are placed.

Karrd · July 2005

While not extremely useful, OCs are far, far, from worthless. They allow at least a minimul presence in portions of the map you can't personally defend at the moment. They also are a useful obsticle against marines, they may not be able to stop marines, but any smart marine will soon learn not to ignore them and frequently the time the OC buys you is all you need to get there and defend it personally.

Also, in the absense of sensory chambers (and in previous version where SoF wasn't attached to SCs) OCs are what prevent easy ninja rushes or sieges of the hive.

All that said, they are easily debated as the most worthless of the kharaa structures, and I can't of anything but the most extreme circumstances where it would be a good idea to drop one within the first minute or two of the game.

aeroripper · July 2005

I anticipate swiftspear adding to this but i think that's just a part of playing on pubs. Newer players think that having OCs in relatively random spots will win the game when it doesn't. All OCs are good for are making certain areas of the map a deterrence for marines (ex, mess hall on nancy).

Then you have to learn how to position things strategically and not just in a easily destroyed lump of OCs all lined up for the marines. Like for instance, positioning one OC around a corner so the marine runs past it since he thinks its just one OC, then have another around the corner and anotehr around the next corner. So around the time the mairne gets to his objective and skulk can come and clean up what is left of him.

Yea, countless times i have been mad about some player putting OCs all over the hive when we need the res spent elsewhere. It's great that we have OCs in the hive to kill JPs but what's the point when we're going to lose now anyways?

Garet_Jax · July 2005

If I ever plant an OC, it's to block off an area to the marines (by the placement of the structure, not the (in)ability to cause damage)- which goes to show how broke they are.

Balanced out by grenades and catpacks, I guess <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Invader_Scoot · July 2005

Grenades go through ocs so quickly it isn't even funny. OC's are pretty much screwed right now.

2_of_Eight · July 2005

Do [] people not realize that it's easier to get past an OC than an ambushing silent/cloaking/focus/etc skulk? Or that a fade/lerk defends a hive a <i>lot</i> better against JPs than OCs? Or that a fade can go hit base and kill and arms lab/armoury/etc, while OCs can't?

Blocking off areas doesn't work. Medpacks + 1 welder = wasted OC. In fact, sometimes, even medpacks is enough... not many marines walk around with 100% armour.

How do OCs stop ninja PGs? Countless times, the comm has medded me a couple of times while I build a PG, possible even directly in the OC's line of fire. Oh well. Hive down, maybe the OC gets a few kills if the comm is not very attentive. Still... in no way do OCs prevent ninja rushes.

aeroripper · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you people not realize that it's easier to get past an OC than an ambushing silent/cloaking/focus/etc skulk? Or that a fade/lerk defends a hive a lot better against JPs than OCs? Or that a fade can go hit base and kill and arms lab/armoury/etc, while OCs can't?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

uhh... actually i've seen fades that can't hit JPs in the hive worth a crap, and JPs+shotties\hmgs kill lerks instantly. In pubs it helps late game if your team has some excess resources and you know their coming to rush hive. Please don't call us "you people", it makes you sound elitist. I agree with your point about people wasting res and drop OCs immediately in hive, but just because you think OCs are completely useless in every situation doesn't always make it that way.

EDIT: Also OCs do usually not stop ninja rushes, but can give an early warning system for nearby aliens (hearing spikes firing). And a lot of times it really just depends on the skill of your team to take down JPs in hive, but in the average joe-blow pub this varies greatly. If your in a clan like you are 2 of 8 i can see why OCs are worthless because everybody has a high skill level.

2_of_Eight · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aeroripper @ Jul 10 2005, 01:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Also OCs do usually not stop ninja rushes, but can give an early warning system for nearby aliens (hearing spikes firing).  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Wait, if you can hear spikes firing, can't you hear a PG building, or marines walking/phasing?

Also: placing OC's is not a very skillful job. Sure, there are better places than others to place them, but in general, it's the least skillful role there is, in my opnion. Now, if you go fade and try to kill JP's - sure, you might not be good at it, but if you keep on trying, eventually you'll be able to hit them easier, and perhaps get greater satisfaction.

joee · July 2005

they put down oc's because they want to turrent farm but aren't on the marine team.

aeroripper · July 2005

Something else OCs can do well is if you combo them with DCs and make a defended healing station near an important objective. If your re-taking a hive area and your fade and lerks keep going in and out you place a couple of DCs outside with maybe 2 OCs, just to give the gorge some extra security incase they all phase through and try to retake the area.

Also if your use to playing clan games, where the points is to win as easily and fast as possible, then yea, OCs are completely worthless. But in a pub they can add a different and interesting gameplay element.

I don't think its as clean cut as OCs are just "worthless", but how they fit to your style of play more than anything. They can be fun, although don't take a whole ton of skill to place down stratgically they can make things more interesting. If you just hate OCs entirely, any reasonable use we come up with for them will seem impractical to you as well. So really, all this is is just i see things differently than you do.

CommunistWithAGun · July 2005

I think the only time I've placed OCs in a scrim was the block the door to slow down the marines

Or back in the day when you could put 4-5 on top of a hive, that helped slow up JPs.

eliotmat · July 2005

OCs are the lose except on rediculous ns_siege maps.

Depot · July 2005

OCs have their place, particularly in early game. But I would say not how/where you described the n00bs dropping them.

Angelusz · July 2005

Very interesting, good point which i haven't considered for a while.
i don't have the time to elaborate on this right now, so i'll post better later.
My view is that we're seeing alot of lacks in alien viability, in the constellation there was another thread about lerks being too weak, and skulks etc.
But if we beef up every aspect of the aliens, then what's left for the aliens to do? lets not make it too easy.
Oc's can be very usefull, but again, i'll post about that later ^^

Dreya · July 2005

Now, everyone here's agreed so far that OCs, in no way, replace a skilled fade, lerk, or skulk. What I'd like to know is why someone would want to place a slow-firing automated system when they can just use the res and at least make a showing of trying to learn how to do better. Even if they're a walker fade, they're still practicing and trying to better themselves. And that seems a lot more worthwhile to me in the long run than just learning how to drop chambers.

Sky · July 2005

Let's see...ocs (if used properly) deter or prevent ninja pgs and/or ninja shotty rushes. They're an early warning system. If you're playing on tanith, you want at least a couple of ocs in cargo so the marines don't completely take control of the map, unless you're going to expect pub players to just sit there waiting for random marines to come by.

Zek · July 2005

I drop OCs when I'm out of other things to drop and I don't feel like doing anything besides Gorging. I think it's about time OCs were properly balanced out with their res cost so they're useful in a game you seriously want to win; there's no way each OC is actually worth 10 res from a single gorge. I've always thought that the best solution is to make them much cheaper and reduce the area limit for OCs to maybe 4(and/or give them a second, smaller radius in which only 1 can exist to prevent easy WoLs).

motsew · July 2005

I miss the Death Chamber <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

Rammstien · July 2005

The only place i ever place them is ventilation hive on bast, becuase omgosh jps

Thaldarin · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jul 10 2005, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I think the only time I've placed OCs in a scrim was the block the door to slow down the marines

Or back in the day when you could put 4-5 on top of a hive, that helped slow up JPs.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Wall of lame days was one of the best days of my NS career!

coris · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jul 10 2005, 07:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> OCs have their place, particularly in early game.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
No they dont. You would be better off with ambushing skulks and res-nodes. The only thing OCs do is irritate marines while they take them down easy as heck. Nothing more, nothing less.

princess · July 2005

You're forgetting the psychological power of some OCs. A lot of people see some OCs and decide to run the other way.

Also they give away marine locations. There's always some muppet happy to shoot a round into an OC, which alerts aliens to their presence.

Also, if they do actually manage to hit marines, they can help make life easier for aliens to kill them.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /> Gorge power <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

MrGunner · July 2005

A couple of offense chambers in a building hive can easily stop a shotgun rush and most comms would rather siege then push a hive with ocs in it. They distract and eat armor which makes your skulks that much more useful. They are also good for penning marines in at endgame. Other then that they are as useless as turrets.

joee · July 2005

oc's have their use during midgame ,e.g if you're guarding cargo, a lerk and two oc's at the entrance to cargo [and a skulk or fade for the kill perhaps] will make that one hell of a hard way to get in

Renegade. · July 2005

The last three or four posts actualy brought some logic into this discussion. OC's are not (or at least should not) be portrayed as a self-contained killing apparatus. If you view it as such, then yes it becomes useless, however, if you view it as it is intended to be (with skilled players), as a combative aid and deterrant, then it becomes increasingly useful. As others have said, OC's don't need to flat out kill a marine, shooting at it is ample enough:
a) it raises alarm and attention
b) it reduces the marines armour/hp
c) it distracts the marine from ambushing skulks
d) it leaves the marine vulnerable if he decides to waste ammo on it

Thus, the OC's usefulness is grossly dependant on how you view its role in the game; the latter of which being more effective.

Zek · July 2005

Renegade, the problem is that against competent marines who don't react stupidly to OCs, the functions you listed are not enough to justify the price tag. If you drop one or two they're bypassed, if you drop too many they're massively expensive and eventually GLed or sieged out. If a marine sees fit to kill an OC he can solo it by crouch-jumping at a reasonable distance and not take a single hit. Obviously it's very beneficial to the alien team to have OCs all over the place, but in an evenly matched game you won't have that kind of res and even if you did it would be better spent elsewhere.

Olmy · July 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (princess @ Jul 10 2005, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You're forgetting the psychological power of some OCs. A lot of people see some OCs and decide to run the other way.

Also they give away marine locations. There's always some muppet happy to shoot a round into an OC, which alerts aliens to their presence.

Also, if they do actually manage to hit marines, they can help make life easier for aliens to kill them.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /> Gorge power <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The first two points you made aren't exactly positive for the game. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Shzar · July 2005

I just played a game on ns_nancy where I perma-gorged. You know that res node in it's own little room adjacent to the long hallway near port hive (sorry I can't remember the name, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about). I built the node there, and two ocs, in opposite corners. They would shoot anyone walking past, and they covered every side of the res tower. They got five kills in that game.

So what's the point?

Skulks would use that little room as a stop off point. That cargo bay was a hot spot of action; aliens would hide behind the res node, marines would rush in, get ocd, then easily bitten to death. They eventually shotgunned the res and one oc, and lost much of their own.

This is just my personal experience with the efficacy of offence chambers.

Goldwin · July 2005

If there is one thng an OC can do effectively, is hold Cargo on Tanith in the early game if marines rush it.

You get a gorge up top in the corner and place an OC int he first minute, and Marines get there once it's up, it's a damned good defense, especially since the gorge can heal it safely without fearing (much) damage.

But Cargo on Tanith is really the only place I can think of that OCs are extremely useful to defend.

Offence Chambers

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