You make a good point, I had to sleep on this one.
The conclusion I was led to is this; [1]that prophecy is of no private interpretation, firstly. [2]That believers are led by the Holy Spirit, secondly. [3]That denominations are not scriptural and are usually split apart by extraneous extra-scriptural beliefs, thirdly. And most importantly, that the salvation and hope that we have in Jesus Christ is not found in the fine print or the law or the history of the Bible. It is found in the gospels, which are; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The [4]"Fruit of the Spirit" is; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. Against such there is no law! Because no one needs protection from any one of those things! As a believer I must walk in the Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that [5]reveals truth and [6]convicts of sin. He may reveal it to me through my conscience or God's word or through prayer or some other means. The Holy Spirit is free to move as he wishes.
It is the Holy Spirit that [7]guides you in all truth.
<i>sources</i>
[1] 2 Peter 1:20 [2] John 16:13 [3] Ephesians 4:4-6 [4] Galatians 5:22-23 [5] John 16:13 [6] John 16:8-11 [7] John 16:13
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
It was only considered bad because they had eaten the apple, and they thought it was bad, however prior to that incident being naked was natural. That is a horrible example. Also, using the KJV is a even bigger farce then that out of context quote.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why did they think that it was bad? Because, they had a personal relationship with God, whose Holy Spirit convicted them. We all have a little voice in our head, a conscience or something like it. (Which I believe to be God's Holy Spirit) Those that don't are the mentally unstable, psychotic, etc. And they are the vast minority. Everyone has felt shame or has felt bad when they said or did something that they knew they shouldn't have. We are also created in the image of God, which accounts for shame and a conscience.
That is all the Bible is. Besides history and geneaology, it's a manual. A manual to life, to you, to right and to wrong.
That would work, but... its "history" isn't history, there is no history basis in the bible other then a collection of stories that are just retold from other older legends and myths.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Old Testament has plenty of history in it, scholars use it as an ancient <b>historical</b> text. Because that's what it is.
I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of the Bible.
I would suggest you get on with your killing of non-virgin married women then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's out of context, you know it, so I'm leaving that alone. You may rejoin the discussion when you have something relevant to say.
I would like to correct myself, however. I should have said, I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of God. This would include, God's Word, God Himself, Prayer, etc. I apologize for the mis-type.
An act that contributes to the overall survival of the human species.
Wrong?
One that acts against it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So it's right to exterminate all those with AIDs, because we can't figure a cure, and eventually their epidemic may threaten the rest of humanity?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited July 2005
a) I didn't say that,.
b) One of those people might well have a cure for AIDS or cancer or just paint a picture that brings joy and enrichment to the life of millions.
c) AIDS isn't universally fatal.
d) AIDS isn't particularly infectious.
e) AIDS is in no way likely to threaten the future of the human race.
If you'd suggested that it is wrong to spend lots of money on military hardware rather than into AIDS research, you might have been within a million miles of my point.
Generally, instigating pogroms isn't a very positive step forward for the human race's survivability. I'm suprised I have to explain this to you Rob.
At least I got you a bit stirred. My point is that your explanation was lacking. But on a strictly biological level, a good genocide can do wonders for the gene pool. We breed the best animals together to make stronger offspring, yes? You just have to make sure you don't do it too often, or your re-pollute.
Take the spartans for example. The weak were killed in order to bring forth a stronger military society. In the terms of that singular society, and using the little bit of insight you gave us into your definitions of right and wrong, The spartans were entirely right in killing the weak among their young, slaying cowards at an instant, and generally carrying on in that fasion.
What do you consider the 'good' or 'survival' of the species. Are we talking an Aryan Race? A Big Brother 'utopia'? Are we allowed to play with genetics for purity? For Diversity? Would enslaving a particular race (human or alien) benefit us? Or allowing God to make all of our decisions? An AI controlled society?
Until you know which one is best for 'humanity' (and how do you define that one? By our beliefs? Our bodies?) then there is no greater good you can strive for.
I don't help people for society. I help people for people.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't help people for society. I help people for people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Jul 7 2005, 10:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Jul 7 2005, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You make a good point, I had to sleep on this one.
The conclusion I was led to is this; [1]that prophecy is of no private interpretation, firstly. [2]That believers are led by the Holy Spirit, secondly. [3]That denominations are not scriptural and are usually split apart by extraneous extra-scriptural beliefs, thirdly. And most importantly, that the salvation and hope that we have in Jesus Christ is not found in the fine print or the law or the history of the Bible. It is found in the gospels, which are; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The [4]"Fruit of the Spirit" is; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. Against such there is no law! Because no one needs protection from any one of those things! As a believer I must walk in the Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that [5]reveals truth and [6]convicts of sin. He may reveal it to me through my conscience or God's word or through prayer or some other means. The Holy Spirit is free to move as he wishes.
It is the Holy Spirit that [7]guides you in all truth.
<i>sources</i>
[1] 2 Peter 1:20 [2] John 16:13 [3] Ephesians 4:4-6 [4] Galatians 5:22-23 [5] John 16:13 [6] John 16:8-11 [7] John 16:13
<i>[Snipped out stuff in reply to Cyn (ho ho ho, I made a funny), because she can't answer right now anyway]</i> ~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, bear with me. I'm not sure I completely get your argument. Are you saying that there is no such thing as an individual interpretation, because the Holy Ghost beams the information directly into our brains? If so, why are there disputes in the Church of England (over things like women/homosexual preists)? That's not good leadership.
I'll take your word for it over the different denominations thing. I'm no expert in that regard.
Some of those things that you list <i>can</i> be bad for you or others. Is it a Good Thing to show patience, kindness, and/or faithfulness to an Inheritently Evil person? By sheltering him from the police (for example), you break the law; you are an accessory after the fact. Again, it seems a bit inflexible, not something you want in a moral standard.
And it's all very well telling people to walk in the Spirit, but that doesn't actually help us much in determining a standard moral compass, unless you can provide a step-by-step guide. I'm pretty sure I've never walked in the Spirit.
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics' target='_blank'>There are at least five well-recognized ways to approach this subject:</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Philosophers sometimes call it the "science of morality", but generally emphasize its non-empirical character.
Theologians consider ethics a branch of theology, especially in Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Roman Catholicism and some Fundamentalist Protestant sects.
Ethics is inseparable from economics in some theories, notably Marxism and social ecology, from feminism, and from gender in Queer studies. These views are said to represent workers, women, and sexual outcasts who have historically been degraded by traditional ethics.
Professionals usually use or interpret "ethics" to refer to elements of professional practice that are part of dispute resolution or which have some great potential for: bodily harm, urban planning, medicine, law, politics and theories of civics.
A fifth way derives from theories of nonviolence, pacifism, anarchism,and secession as a route to peace.
Sometimes, ethics is simply regarded as the de-escalation and mediation of conflicts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Discuss...
Well since I cleared it with a few mods before I decided to post again... I shall start from the top.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The conclusion I was led to is this; [1]that prophecy is of no private interpretation, firstly. [2]That believers are led by the Holy Spirit, secondly. [3]That denominations are not scriptural and are usually split apart by extraneous extra-scriptural beliefs, thirdly. And most importantly, that the salvation and hope that we have in Jesus Christ is not found in the fine print or the law or the history of the Bible. It is found in the gospels, which are; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. That would work but if no one translated what the bible says, you would have no bible, (unless you happen to speak hebrew (2500+ yr old) or greek (1700+ yr old).
2. That isn't possible as this thread doesn't pre-suppose christianity is true, which means that one is dismissed.
3. Incorrect once more, the bible quite clearly states that a confession with a priest/clergy is required at least once a year. Catholics (one denomination) follow this, Protestants, (usually) do not.
Jesus said in the gospels that those who follow him should upload the laws laid down in the old testatment. I have posted that particular verse before.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The [4]"Fruit of the Spirit" is; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. Against such there is no law! Because no one needs protection from any one of those things! As a believer I must walk in the Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that [5]reveals truth and [6]convicts of sin. He may reveal it to me through my conscience or God's word or through prayer or some other means. The Holy Spirit is free to move as he wishes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 4. Again "fruit of the spirit" really doesn't have much to do with this discussion, so we shall leave that one be.
5. I shall leave reveals truth alone as well, as that would result in lots of off topic contradictions.
6. This one I shall touch on but only briefly, because right now since you are not activelly murdering non-christian people, you are sinning. (No offense meant).
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is the Holy Spirit that [7]guides you in all truth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 7. Going to leave that one as well, since once again, it is not relevant, since there is no pre-supposed holy spirit. Not to mention the many contradictions found.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Old Testament has plenty of history in it, scholars use it as an ancient historical text. Because that's what it is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong scholars who actually look at the OT, use it as a basis for the beginnings of christianity, not as history, as there is very little history in the bible(OT) that actually occured. The only scholars who consider it to be history are your christian apologetics, and even then they can't explain why it is history other then "god says it is".
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to correct myself, however. I should have said, I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of God. This would include, God's Word, God Himself, Prayer, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which makes no sense... after all many of the laws we have today have existed since the beginnings of civilization, and it will always be that way. God(s) or no god(s) what is right and wrong can not be defined by only non-secular beliefs especially when all of the big three religions love to kill each other and promote it.
That isn't particularly very good for being "right."
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Jul 7 2005, 09:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Jul 7 2005, 09:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What do you consider the 'good' or 'survival' of the species. Are we talking an Aryan Race? A Big Brother 'utopia'? Are we allowed to play with genetics for purity? For Diversity? Would enslaving a particular race (human or alien) benefit us? Or allowing God to make all of our decisions? An AI controlled society?
Until you know which one is best for 'humanity' (and how do you define that one? By our beliefs? Our bodies?) then there is no greater good you can strive for.
I don't help people for society. I help people for people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whatever improves our survival as a species. There can be no higher calling than that of our genetic code.
Now there are numerous method we can use to improve our survivability. Developing an egalitariarn system based on the efficient division of resources and capabilities would be paramount, in my and most sociologists' opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Jul 8 2005, 11:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Jul 8 2005, 11:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Jul 7 2005, 09:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Jul 7 2005, 09:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What do you consider the 'good' or 'survival' of the species. Are we talking an Aryan Race? A Big Brother 'utopia'? Are we allowed to play with genetics for purity? For Diversity? Would enslaving a particular race (human or alien) benefit us? Or allowing God to make all of our decisions? An AI controlled society?
Until you know which one is best for 'humanity' (and how do you define that one? By our beliefs? Our bodies?) then there is no greater good you can strive for.
I don't help people for society. I help people for people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whatever improves our survival as a species. There can be no higher calling than that of our genetic code.
Now there are numerous method we can use to improve our survivability. Developing an egalitariarn system based on the efficient division of resources and capabilities would be paramount, in my and most sociologists' opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Consequentialism at it's finest.
Assume that a woman is undressing in her appartment, and a voyur does his voyuristic thing. She is not aware that anything has transpired.
Many people would consider this a violation of this woman's rights. However, if we are to adhere to your maxims of action, this action is a-moral. It neither promotes the survival of the species, or detracts from it.
Or, more directly, consider a race riot due to the rape of a young white woman by a black man. All the whites in the town are rioting, since the rapist has not been brought to justice.
You have the power to implicate a man that is innocent of this crime. However, causing his incarceration would lead to a stoppage of the race riots, and would save lives. Due to your maxim, we want to save all the possible genetic material we can get in order to contribute to the species' survivability. Thus, depriving this scapegoat of justice would be a moral action, correct?
Tell me, how do you reconcile the problems of natural rights with a consequentialist outlook?
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Jul 8 2005, 12:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jul 8 2005, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tell me, how do you reconcile the problems of natural rights with a consequentialist outlook? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Most references I have seen seem to use a definition of consequentialism more similar to <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism' target='_blank'>Wikipedia's</a> than what is being discussed here. However I have not found a better label, so off we go...
As with most value systems, I think Grendal's proposal would work *if* most people agreed to it. In your example the race riots simply would not have happened.
More disturbing than the scapegoat eventuality is the rape itself. With a cold genetic measure for "good", it is quite possible that the rape was viewed as a net positive. In most animal species we do not even distinguish consentual and non-consentual reproduction (chances are that some of the less intellectual species do not even distinguish themselves), but for humans we rather tend to.
The easy claim, of course, is that a person whose basic rights are respected is likely to be happier. Being happier, they are more likely to reproduce successfully and raise many happy children. Unfortunately the real world does not seem to reflect this at a global scale.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited July 2005
Your first example is nonsense. Anyone who wishes to remain unobserved whilst naked should probably try undressing with the curtains drawn. There are no rights being violated.
But a well balanced individual wouldn't feel the need to creep around or a need to hide their nakedness. I think you're confusing a real issue with a warped sense of guilt surrounding one's own body. If someone wants to look at me naked, that's peachy, although it happens much less frequently than I would like.
The latter is an easy example to pick apart too.
Ignoring the fact you've made random inferrences based on things I haven't said, to respond to your second hypothetical situation:
a) The people involved in the rioting have SERIOUS educational issues to address.
b) The person who committed the rape requires severe social reconditioning/exclusion.
So there we have three significant issues that impact on the success of human society. Those are what need addressing in the above example. It has nothing to do with genetics at all. It's a social problem.
Edit - sorry about the lack of coherence in this post. I just got bored pointing out the obvious, halfway through. I'm working in customer service (IT support) at the moment and it's dropped my tolerance somewhat.
Moral right and wrong are the polar ends distinguishing choices that respectively agree and disagree with reasonable policy systems that work toward the continued success of society.
Note it is subjective as to which policy systems are reasonable as such, which reflects the subjectivity of moral right/wrong.
An indirection level like "policy systems" is necessary to cope with the fact that in a society of independant thinkers, optimizing choices independantly of each other generally gives suboptimal results overall.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Rezyk+Jul 8 2005, 06:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rezyk @ Jul 8 2005, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Moral right and wrong are the polar ends distinguishing choices that respectively agree and disagree with reasonable policy systems that work toward the continued success of society.
Note it is subjective as to which policy systems are reasonable as such, which reflects the subjectivity of moral right/wrong.
An indirection level like "policy systems" is necessary to cope with the fact that in a society of independant thinkers, optimizing choices independantly of each other generally gives suboptimal results overall. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT.
As a person with no knowledge of direction, I don't know what you're talking about. Failed. I'll go with the crowd that pegs morality as sometimes ambigious values set by the society you live in.
Left is the side of the body the heart is in. The other is the right side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True, wherever your heart is, right usually isn't <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Jul 8 2005, 12:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Jul 8 2005, 12:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your first example is nonsense. Anyone who wishes to remain unobserved whilst naked should probably try undressing with the curtains drawn. There are no rights being violated.
But a well balanced individual wouldn't feel the need to creep around or a need to hide their nakedness. I think you're confusing a real issue with a warped sense of guilt surrounding one's own body. If someone wants to look at me naked, that's peachy, although it happens much less frequently than I would like.
The latter is an easy example to pick apart too.
Ignoring the fact you've made random inferrences based on things I haven't said, to respond to your second hypothetical situation:
a) The people involved in the rioting have SERIOUS educational issues to address.
b) The person who committed the rape requires severe social reconditioning/exclusion.
So there we have three significant issues that impact on the success of human society. Those are what need addressing in the above example. It has nothing to do with genetics at all. It's a social problem.
Edit - sorry about the lack of coherence in this post. I just got bored pointing out the obvious, halfway through. I'm working in customer service (IT support) at the moment and it's dropped my tolerance somewhat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Genetics? I said nothing of the sort.
If you were given the option of incriminating an innocent man for a crime he didn't commit, in order to save the lives of others, would you?
Under your outlook, there is no allowance for inherant natural rights. Not to mention the fact that if incriminating an innocent person is OK, no concept of Justice can exist.
What you are left with is a system of Utilitarianism where justice and human rights are checked at the door, in favor of simply doing what has better consequenses.
Not really legionnaired because other than the fact that there <i>are</i> no natural rights, the laws just don't work that way. You can easily pick lots of situations where on the surface it seems right to do things we would consider immoral (i.e. a pervert staring through a window that isn't caught increases overall pleasure with no decrease and an innocent scapegoat can quell a riot). However those rules don't work over time because they will cause more riots, because one pervert caught causes more upset than a 1000 perverts can counteract with their sordid happiness.
<!--QuoteBegin-CMEast+Jul 10 2005, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CMEast @ Jul 10 2005, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not really legionnaired because other than the fact that there <i>are</i> no natural rights, the laws just don't work that way. You can easily pick lots of situations where on the surface it seems right to do things we would consider immoral (i.e. a pervert staring through a window that isn't caught increases overall pleasure with no decrease and an innocent scapegoat can quell a riot). However those rules don't work over time because they will cause more riots, because one pervert caught causes more upset than a 1000 perverts can counteract with their sordid happiness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but each of those riots can be averted with the loss of a single life. A riot unchecked could take hundreds.
Also, this particular flavor of consequentialism we're debating doesn't deal with happiness at all, but rather the total genetic code of mankind. At very least, the existance of mankind; presumedly, the unhappy existance of 2 is better than the happy existance of one.
Which, of course, is why voyurism is an a-moral action according to consequentialism. It does not contribute to, nor detract from the survival of mankind. Yet, we still think it's wrong.
You're certainly free to think that your moral code describes things as they should be, but there's something to be said for fitting the theory to the evidence; that is, describing a system whereby the perscribed actions are the ones which the majority of people are most comfortable doing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. That would work but if no one translated what the bible says, you would have no bible, (unless you happen to speak hebrew (2500+ yr old) or greek (1700+ yr old).
2. That isn't possible as this thread doesn't pre-suppose christianity is true, which means that one is dismissed.
3. Incorrect once more, the bible quite clearly states that a confession with a priest/clergy is required at least once a year. Catholics (one denomination) follow this, Protestants, (usually) do not.
Jesus said in the gospels that those who follow him should upload the laws laid down in the old testatment. I have posted that particular verse before.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Even then, you would have to interpret the Hebrew and or Greek, Cyndane. And that would leave us right where we are today. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and it can only be comprehended by the same.
2. It is foolish not to presuppose that the God in question exists when a discussion is taking place around and about said God.
3. Firstly, where in scripture does it state this? Secondly, you may have missed my point a bit. Denominations are completely unscriptural, while scripture acknowledges them.
<!--QuoteBegin-1 Corinthians 1:10+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1 Corinthians 1:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-1 Corinthians 12:5+6--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1 Corinthians 12:5 @ 6)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there are differences of administrations but the same Lord. And there are diversities of oprations but it is the same God which worketh all in all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, as said before, things like (Baptists) <i>not dancing</i>, are extraneous baggage that man has carried into the denomination.
Concerning the gospel preached by Jesus, he also said:
<!--QuoteBegin-Matthew 22:36-40+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Matthew 22:36-40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fine print are not the great commandments, neither are all commandments equal. God judges the heart, not the works only.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong scholars who actually look at the OT, use it as a basis for the beginnings of christianity, not as history, as there is very little history in the bible(OT) that actually occured. The only scholars who consider it to be history are your christian apologetics, and even then they can't explain why it is history other then "god says it is"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If nothing else it is the history of the Jewish people. I'll leave this debate alone as it is not relevant right now, however.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which makes no sense... after all many of the laws we have today have existed since the beginnings of civilization, and it will always be that way. God(s) or no god(s) what is right and wrong can not be defined by only non-secular beliefs especially when all of the big three religions love to kill each other and promote it.
That isn't particularly very good for being "right."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those who promote such things are extremists and you know better than to hinge a debate of the general on the specific. Christians as a whole, in general, do not murder, nor is murder acceptable or commanded by God. Murder was acceptable in the OT as a way of cleansing the earth of evil and only on God's command was it acceptable. God has made a new covenant with us through Jesus Christ.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bosnian Cowboy+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian Cowboy)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Define left and right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Left and right, while relative to your position, never change. Left is always left and right is always right. If I were standing in front of you right now I could quickly teach you left and right. The only way that you would not grasp left and right would be if you were <b>trying to not</b> grasp left and right. Bad analogy, sorry.
This verse is insightful to me, concerning this topic of interpretation and subjective standards.
<!--QuoteBegin-1 Corinthians 2:13+14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1 Corinthians 2:13 @ 14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual thinsg with spiritual. But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them; because they are spiritually discerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes spirit to be a Christian. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
P.S. sorry for late reply, I was away in Canada on holiday.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. Even then, you would have to interpret the Hebrew and or Greek, Cyndane. And that would leave us right where we are today. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and it can only be comprehended by the same.
2. It is foolish not to presuppose that the God in question exists when a discussion is taking place around and about said God.
3. Firstly, where in scripture does it state this? Secondly, you may have missed my point a bit. Denominations are completely unscriptural, while scripture acknowledges them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. If you look at it in a literal sense, there really isn't much to interpet as the words tend to speak for themselves. Especially with the hewbrew, the greek is a bit more open to interpetation, but then again you will still have errors. So the question remains, why try to interpet something that will inherently have errors in translations and actually follow it? Oh thats right, there isn't a good reason.
2. No, it is discussing right and wrong, there is no pre-supposing that god(s) are real. Which again has no bearing on anything particularly, however if you wish to debate the existence or non-existence of a god, that is for another thread and probably another forum as well.
3. You missed that thread, which is sad, but I shall quote it for you anyway.
It is called the Day of Atonement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Leviticus 23:26-31+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Leviticus 23:26-31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 26The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
27"On exactly (U)the tenth day of this seventh month is (V)the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28"You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a (W)day of atonement, (X)to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29"If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, (Y)he shall be cut off from his people.
30"As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
31"You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If nothing else it is the history of the Jewish people. I'll leave this debate alone as it is not relevant right now, however. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, there is no history, as history is based in fact and very much of the OT is not fact.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Those who promote such things are extremists and you know better than to hinge a debate of the general on the specific. Christians as a whole, in general, do not murder, nor is murder acceptable or commanded by God. Murder was acceptable in the OT as a way of cleansing the earth of evil and only on God's command was it acceptable. God has made a new covenant with us through Jesus Christ. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once more you have no idea what your own holy book says, I can forgive for not knowing what Islam says
Let me quote you the passages of what your god tells you to do. This is from your holy codifed laws section(s) of the bible, where it TELLS YOU what you can and can not do. <!--QuoteBegin-Various bible passages+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Various bible passages)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know you are saying "but the new testament says to love each other."
Wait... for it...
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible NSAB Matthew 5 17-18+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible NSAB Matthew 5 17-18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. If you look at it in a literal sense, there really isn't much to interpet as the words tend to speak for themselves. Especially with the hewbrew, the greek is a bit more open to interpetation, but then again you will still have errors. So the question remains, why try to interpet something that will inherently have errors in translations and actually follow it? Oh thats right, there isn't a good reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're straying from the beaten path with this one, Cyndane. All literature MUST be interpreted. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and can only be interpreted through that same inspiration.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. No, it is discussing right and wrong, there is no pre-supposing that god(s) are real. Which again has no bearing on anything particularly, however if you wish to debate the existence or non-existence of a god, that is for another thread and probably another forum as well. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The question of God's existence ties into the question of what is right and what is wrong. If my God, the one from the Holy Bible, exists; then right and wrong take on a whole new meaning. God is vital to this debate even if he does not exist simply because he is integrated into my opinions and beliefs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. You missed that thread, which is sad, but I shall quote it for you anyway.
It is called the Day of Atonement.
QUOTE (Bible Leviticus 23:26-31)
26The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
27"On exactly (U)the tenth day of this seventh month is (V)the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28"You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a (W)day of atonement, (X)to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29"If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, (Y)he shall be cut off from his people.
30"As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
31"You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am unsure what you're getting at with this, I assume it is the last verse that states "It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places." that we're focusing on. If so, read what God has to say about the Day of Atonement in Isaiah:
<!--QuoteBegin-Isaiah 1:13+14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Isaiah 1:13 @ 14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very interesting passage because the Israelites were doing what God commanded. They were bringing offerings and sacrifices and they were meeting and they were observing all that God had called them to as far as feasts and rituals went. But God commands them to stop. To stop bringing vanity to Him. They have taken His laws and they have turned them into dung. God hates the assemblies and meetings that He; Himself commanded of them. God wants a relationship, not a religion. The command that I typed earlier is above your command (Matthew 22:36-40), "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) (Sabbath / Day of Atonement)
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong, there is no history, as history is based in fact and very much of the OT is not fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, let us chase this rabbit. So you can prove, factually, scientifically, somehow tangibly that an event mentioned in scripture did NOT occur, <i>as a fact?</i>
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once more you have no idea what your own holy book says, I can forgive for not knowing what Islam says
Let me quote you the passages of what your god tells you to do. This is from your holy codifed laws section(s) of the bible, where it TELLS YOU what you can and can not do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are all Old Covenant examples. I live under the New Covenant.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible from Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible from Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're straying from the beaten path with this one, Cyndane. All literature MUST be interpreted. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and can only be interpreted through that same inspiration. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, it does not, only those who wish to make it more then what it appears to be must interpet something, such as yourself. (Tolkien is a great example everyone "thought" LOTR was about WWII but it wasn't, luckily he was alive today to tell us otherwise, sadly the many authors of the bible are not.)
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am unsure what you're getting at with this, I assume it is the last verse that states "It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places." that we're focusing on. If so, read what God has to say about the Day of Atonement in Isaiah: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What I was getting at was the fact it says YOU MUST CONFESS on the 10th day of the seventh month, once a year, which is clearly states in the beginning.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Those are all Old Covenant examples. I live under the New Covenant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again what is sad is you disreguard what your god tells you to do, completely, oh but wait you live under the "new covenant" yet in this new covenant in that Matthew quote, jesus is telling you the old laws STILL APPLY. Lets quote the entire passage shall we?
In the following passage jesus tells you the "new covenant", but maintains that the old laws still apply as referenced by the last few verses. Which means, at this very moment you are committing sins.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible (NSAB) Matthew 5+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (NSAB) Matthew 5)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1(A)When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on (B)the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
3"(D)Blessed are the poor in spirit, for (E)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4"Blessed are (F)those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5"Blessed are (G)the [a]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6"Blessed are (H)those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7"Blessed are (I)the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8"Blessed are (J)the pure in heart, for (K)they shall see God.
9"Blessed are the peacemakers, for (L)they shall be called sons of God.
10"Blessed are those who have been (M)persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for (N)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people (O)insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
12"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for (P)in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Disciples and the World 13"You are the salt of the earth; but (Q)if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14"You are ®the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15(S)nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may (T)see your good works, and (U)glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your (Y)righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
13"You are the salt of the earth; but (Q)if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14"You are ®the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15(S)nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may (T)see your good works, and (U)glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your (Y)righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, let us chase this rabbit. So you can prove, factually, scientifically, somehow tangibly that an event mentioned in scripture did NOT occur, as a fact? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, I opted to chase this rabbit last as this will now be a complete rehashing of the supposed arguments that were used last time, so if you saw the thread... part.<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90840' target='_blank'>here</a> you are more then welcome to skip over this last part.
<a href='http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MESO/SUMER.HTM' target='_blank'>Link 1</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We know very little about the early Semitic religions, but the Semites that invaded Mesopotamia seem to have completely abandoned their religion in favor of Sumerian religion. Sumerian religion was polytheistic, that is, the Sumerians believed in and worshipped many gods. These gods were incredibly powerful and anthropomorphic, that is, they resembled humans. Many of these gods controlled natural forces and were associated with astronomical bodies, such as the sun. The gods were creator gods; as a group, they had created the world and the people in it. Like humans, they suffered all the ravages of human emotional and spiritual frailties: love, lust, hatred, anger, regret. Among the gods' biggest regrets was the creation of human life; the Sumerians believed that these gods regretted the creation of human life and sent a flood to destroy their faulty creation, but one man survived by building a boat. While the destruction of the earth in a great flood is nearly universal in all human mythology and religion, we can't be sure if the Semites had a similar story or took it over from the Sumerians. This is, of course, a question of contemporary significance: according to Genesis, the originator of the Hebrew race, the patriarch Abraham, originally came from the city of Ur. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright it is now midnight and I am sick of looking up old arguements.. here is a link where there were a few of the stories proven to be fiction/false/not true. <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88402&st=15' target='_blank'>Link 1(forums)</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATI+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATI)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The question of God's existence ties into the question of what is right and what is wrong. If my God, the one from the Holy Bible, exists; then right and wrong take on a whole new meaning. God is vital to this debate even if he does not exist simply because he is integrated into my opinions and beliefs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since there is no way you can prove that God exists, it is not helpful to the discussion. If God exists, and He's exactly as you describe, then yes, it's important. But since we can't<i> know</i> whether He does or not, it doesn't help us.
We also can't question God's philosophy, the method He uses to determine between good and bad. God as an entity is beyond comprehension, and we can't talk to Him, so that's not much help, either. Your Holy Spirit only seems to help believers (which makes posting bible quotes futile, I'm afraid, since we don't interpret them the same way as you). So, once again, we come to a dead end.
If I were to teach my children right and wrong, it would have to be a system that isn't ultimately based on an assumption. (Note that there's nothing wrong with "love thy neighbour". You may or may not believe that it has the backing of a god, but it's an ideology that should steer you straight.)
Comments
The conclusion I was led to is this; [1]that prophecy is of no private interpretation, firstly. [2]That believers are led by the Holy Spirit, secondly. [3]That denominations are not scriptural and are usually split apart by extraneous extra-scriptural beliefs, thirdly. And most importantly, that the salvation and hope that we have in Jesus Christ is not found in the fine print or the law or the history of the Bible. It is found in the gospels, which are; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The [4]"Fruit of the Spirit" is; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. Against such there is no law! Because no one needs protection from any one of those things! As a believer I must walk in the Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that [5]reveals truth and [6]convicts of sin. He may reveal it to me through my conscience or God's word or through prayer or some other means. The Holy Spirit is free to move as he wishes.
It is the Holy Spirit that [7]guides you in all truth.
<i>sources</i>
[1] 2 Peter 1:20
[2] John 16:13
[3] Ephesians 4:4-6
[4] Galatians 5:22-23
[5] John 16:13
[6] John 16:8-11
[7] John 16:13
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (DarkAti)
Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
It was only considered bad because they had eaten the apple, and they thought it was bad, however prior to that incident being naked was natural. That is a horrible example. Also, using the KJV is a even bigger farce then that out of context quote.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why did they think that it was bad? Because, they had a personal relationship with God, whose Holy Spirit convicted them. We all have a little voice in our head, a conscience or something like it. (Which I believe to be God's Holy Spirit) Those that don't are the mentally unstable, psychotic, etc. And they are the vast minority. Everyone has felt shame or has felt bad when they said or did something that they knew they shouldn't have. We are also created in the image of God, which accounts for shame and a conscience.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (DarkAti)
That is all the Bible is. Besides history and geneaology, it's a manual. A manual to life, to you, to right and to wrong.
That would work, but... its "history" isn't history, there is no history basis in the bible other then a collection of stories that are just retold from other older legends and myths.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Old Testament has plenty of history in it, scholars use it as an ancient <b>historical</b> text. Because that's what it is.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
QUOTE (DarkAti)
I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of the Bible.
I would suggest you get on with your killing of non-virgin married women then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's out of context, you know it, so I'm leaving that alone. You may rejoin the discussion when you have something relevant to say.
I would like to correct myself, however. I should have said, I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of God. This would include, God's Word, God Himself, Prayer, etc. I apologize for the mis-type.
~ DarkATi
An act that contributes to the overall survival of the human species.
Wrong?
One that acts against it.
An act that contributes to the overall survival of the human species.
Wrong?
One that acts against it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it's right to exterminate all those with AIDs, because we can't figure a cure, and eventually their epidemic may threaten the rest of humanity?
b) One of those people might well have a cure for AIDS or cancer or just paint a picture that brings joy and enrichment to the life of millions.
c) AIDS isn't universally fatal.
d) AIDS isn't particularly infectious.
e) AIDS is in no way likely to threaten the future of the human race.
If you'd suggested that it is wrong to spend lots of money on military hardware rather than into AIDS research, you might have been within a million miles of my point.
Generally, instigating pogroms isn't a very positive step forward for the human race's survivability. I'm suprised I have to explain this to you Rob.
At least I got you a bit stirred. My point is that your explanation was lacking. But on a strictly biological level, a good genocide can do wonders for the gene pool. We breed the best animals together to make stronger offspring, yes? You just have to make sure you don't do it too often, or your re-pollute.
Take the spartans for example. The weak were killed in order to bring forth a stronger military society. In the terms of that singular society, and using the little bit of insight you gave us into your definitions of right and wrong, The spartans were entirely right in killing the weak among their young, slaying cowards at an instant, and generally carrying on in that fasion.
And there's nothing good about thinning out a gene pool and only leaving the best.
Ask Cheetahs. But ask them quick, since there'll be none left soon.
Until you know which one is best for 'humanity' (and how do you define that one? By our beliefs? Our bodies?) then there is no greater good you can strive for.
I don't help people for society. I help people for people.
*nods* I agree, I like that.
~ DarkATi
The conclusion I was led to is this; [1]that prophecy is of no private interpretation, firstly. [2]That believers are led by the Holy Spirit, secondly. [3]That denominations are not scriptural and are usually split apart by extraneous extra-scriptural beliefs, thirdly. And most importantly, that the salvation and hope that we have in Jesus Christ is not found in the fine print or the law or the history of the Bible. It is found in the gospels, which are; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The [4]"Fruit of the Spirit" is; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. Against such there is no law! Because no one needs protection from any one of those things! As a believer I must walk in the Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that [5]reveals truth and [6]convicts of sin. He may reveal it to me through my conscience or God's word or through prayer or some other means. The Holy Spirit is free to move as he wishes.
It is the Holy Spirit that [7]guides you in all truth.
<i>sources</i>
[1] 2 Peter 1:20
[2] John 16:13
[3] Ephesians 4:4-6
[4] Galatians 5:22-23
[5] John 16:13
[6] John 16:8-11
[7] John 16:13
<i>[Snipped out stuff in reply to Cyn (ho ho ho, I made a funny), because she can't answer right now anyway]</i>
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, bear with me. I'm not sure I completely get your argument. Are you saying that there is no such thing as an individual interpretation, because the Holy Ghost beams the information directly into our brains? If so, why are there disputes in the Church of England (over things like women/homosexual preists)? That's not good leadership.
I'll take your word for it over the different denominations thing. I'm no expert in that regard.
Some of those things that you list <i>can</i> be bad for you or others. Is it a Good Thing to show patience, kindness, and/or faithfulness to an Inheritently Evil person? By sheltering him from the police (for example), you break the law; you are an accessory after the fact. Again, it seems a bit inflexible, not something you want in a moral standard.
And it's all very well telling people to walk in the Spirit, but that doesn't actually help us much in determining a standard moral compass, unless you can provide a step-by-step guide. I'm pretty sure I've never walked in the Spirit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Philosophers sometimes call it the "science of morality", but generally emphasize its non-empirical character.
Theologians consider ethics a branch of theology, especially in Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Roman Catholicism and some Fundamentalist Protestant sects.
Ethics is inseparable from economics in some theories, notably Marxism and social ecology, from feminism, and from gender in Queer studies. These views are said to represent workers, women, and sexual outcasts who have historically been degraded by traditional ethics.
Professionals usually use or interpret "ethics" to refer to elements of professional practice that are part of dispute resolution or which have some great potential for: bodily harm, urban planning, medicine, law, politics and theories of civics.
A fifth way derives from theories of nonviolence, pacifism, anarchism,and secession as a route to peace.
Sometimes, ethics is simply regarded as the de-escalation and mediation of conflicts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Discuss...
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The conclusion I was led to is this; [1]that prophecy is of no private interpretation, firstly. [2]That believers are led by the Holy Spirit, secondly. [3]That denominations are not scriptural and are usually split apart by extraneous extra-scriptural beliefs, thirdly. And most importantly, that the salvation and hope that we have in Jesus Christ is not found in the fine print or the law or the history of the Bible. It is found in the gospels, which are; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. That would work but if no one translated what the bible says, you would have no bible, (unless you happen to speak hebrew (2500+ yr old) or greek (1700+ yr old).
2. That isn't possible as this thread doesn't pre-suppose christianity is true, which means that one is dismissed.
3. Incorrect once more, the bible quite clearly states that a confession with a priest/clergy is required at least once a year. Catholics (one denomination) follow this, Protestants, (usually) do not.
Jesus said in the gospels that those who follow him should upload the laws laid down in the old testatment. I have posted that particular verse before.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The [4]"Fruit of the Spirit" is; Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-Control. Against such there is no law! Because no one needs protection from any one of those things! As a believer I must walk in the Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit that [5]reveals truth and [6]convicts of sin. He may reveal it to me through my conscience or God's word or through prayer or some other means. The Holy Spirit is free to move as he wishes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4. Again "fruit of the spirit" really doesn't have much to do with this discussion, so we shall leave that one be.
5. I shall leave reveals truth alone as well, as that would result in lots of off topic contradictions.
6. This one I shall touch on but only briefly, because right now since you are not activelly murdering non-christian people, you are sinning. (No offense meant).
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
It is the Holy Spirit that [7]guides you in all truth.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
7. Going to leave that one as well, since once again, it is not relevant, since there is no pre-supposed holy spirit. Not to mention the many contradictions found.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The Old Testament has plenty of history in it, scholars use it as an ancient historical text. Because that's what it is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong scholars who actually look at the OT, use it as a basis for the beginnings of christianity, not as history, as there is very little history in the bible(OT) that actually occured. The only scholars who consider it to be history are your christian apologetics, and even then they can't explain why it is history other then "god says it is".
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I would like to correct myself, however. I should have said, I am convinced that no man can know right from wrong outside of God. This would include, God's Word, God Himself, Prayer, etc.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which makes no sense... after all many of the laws we have today have existed since the beginnings of civilization, and it will always be that way. God(s) or no god(s) what is right and wrong can not be defined by only non-secular beliefs especially when all of the big three religions love to kill each other and promote it.
That isn't particularly very good for being "right."
Until you know which one is best for 'humanity' (and how do you define that one? By our beliefs? Our bodies?) then there is no greater good you can strive for.
I don't help people for society. I help people for people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever improves our survival as a species. There can be no higher calling than that of our genetic code.
Now there are numerous method we can use to improve our survivability. Developing an egalitariarn system based on the efficient division of resources and capabilities would be paramount, in my and most sociologists' opinion.
Until you know which one is best for 'humanity' (and how do you define that one? By our beliefs? Our bodies?) then there is no greater good you can strive for.
I don't help people for society. I help people for people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whatever improves our survival as a species. There can be no higher calling than that of our genetic code.
Now there are numerous method we can use to improve our survivability. Developing an egalitariarn system based on the efficient division of resources and capabilities would be paramount, in my and most sociologists' opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Consequentialism at it's finest.
Assume that a woman is undressing in her appartment, and a voyur does his voyuristic thing. She is not aware that anything has transpired.
Many people would consider this a violation of this woman's rights. However, if we are to adhere to your maxims of action, this action is a-moral. It neither promotes the survival of the species, or detracts from it.
Or, more directly, consider a race riot due to the rape of a young white woman by a black man. All the whites in the town are rioting, since the rapist has not been brought to justice.
You have the power to implicate a man that is innocent of this crime. However, causing his incarceration would lead to a stoppage of the race riots, and would save lives. Due to your maxim, we want to save all the possible genetic material we can get in order to contribute to the species' survivability. Thus, depriving this scapegoat of justice would be a moral action, correct?
Tell me, how do you reconcile the problems of natural rights with a consequentialist outlook?
Most references I have seen seem to use a definition of consequentialism more similar to <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism' target='_blank'>Wikipedia's</a> than what is being discussed here. However I have not found a better label, so off we go...
As with most value systems, I think Grendal's proposal would work *if* most people agreed to it. In your example the race riots simply would not have happened.
More disturbing than the scapegoat eventuality is the rape itself. With a cold genetic measure for "good", it is quite possible that the rape was viewed as a net positive. In most animal species we do not even distinguish consentual and non-consentual reproduction (chances are that some of the less intellectual species do not even distinguish themselves), but for humans we rather tend to.
The easy claim, of course, is that a person whose basic rights are respected is likely to be happier. Being happier, they are more likely to reproduce successfully and raise many happy children. Unfortunately the real world does not seem to reflect this at a global scale.
But a well balanced individual wouldn't feel the need to creep around or a need to hide their nakedness. I think you're confusing a real issue with a warped sense of guilt surrounding one's own body. If someone wants to look at me naked, that's peachy, although it happens much less frequently than I would like.
The latter is an easy example to pick apart too.
Ignoring the fact you've made random inferrences based on things I haven't said, to respond to your second hypothetical situation:
a) The people involved in the rioting have SERIOUS educational issues to address.
b) The person who committed the rape requires severe social reconditioning/exclusion.
So there we have three significant issues that impact on the success of human society. Those are what need addressing in the above example. It has nothing to do with genetics at all. It's a social problem.
Edit - sorry about the lack of coherence in this post. I just got bored pointing out the obvious, halfway through. I'm working in customer service (IT support) at the moment and it's dropped my tolerance somewhat.
Note it is subjective as to which policy systems are reasonable as such, which reflects the subjectivity of moral right/wrong.
An indirection level like "policy systems" is necessary to cope with the fact that in a society of independant thinkers, optimizing choices independantly of each other generally gives suboptimal results overall.
Note it is subjective as to which policy systems are reasonable as such, which reflects the subjectivity of moral right/wrong.
An indirection level like "policy systems" is necessary to cope with the fact that in a society of independant thinkers, optimizing choices independantly of each other generally gives suboptimal results overall. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
Left is the side of the body the heart is in. The other is the right side.
Left is the side of the body the heart is in. The other is the right side. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, wherever your heart is, right usually isn't <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But a well balanced individual wouldn't feel the need to creep around or a need to hide their nakedness. I think you're confusing a real issue with a warped sense of guilt surrounding one's own body. If someone wants to look at me naked, that's peachy, although it happens much less frequently than I would like.
The latter is an easy example to pick apart too.
Ignoring the fact you've made random inferrences based on things I haven't said, to respond to your second hypothetical situation:
a) The people involved in the rioting have SERIOUS educational issues to address.
b) The person who committed the rape requires severe social reconditioning/exclusion.
So there we have three significant issues that impact on the success of human society. Those are what need addressing in the above example. It has nothing to do with genetics at all. It's a social problem.
Edit - sorry about the lack of coherence in this post. I just got bored pointing out the obvious, halfway through. I'm working in customer service (IT support) at the moment and it's dropped my tolerance somewhat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Genetics? I said nothing of the sort.
If you were given the option of incriminating an innocent man for a crime he didn't commit, in order to save the lives of others, would you?
Under your outlook, there is no allowance for inherant natural rights. Not to mention the fact that if incriminating an innocent person is OK, no concept of Justice can exist.
What you are left with is a system of Utilitarianism where justice and human rights are checked at the door, in favor of simply doing what has better consequenses.
Yes, but each of those riots can be averted with the loss of a single life. A riot unchecked could take hundreds.
Also, this particular flavor of consequentialism we're debating doesn't deal with happiness at all, but rather the total genetic code of mankind. At very least, the existance of mankind; presumedly, the unhappy existance of 2 is better than the happy existance of one.
Which, of course, is why voyurism is an a-moral action according to consequentialism. It does not contribute to, nor detract from the survival of mankind. Yet, we still think it's wrong.
You're certainly free to think that your moral code describes things as they should be, but there's something to be said for fitting the theory to the evidence; that is, describing a system whereby the perscribed actions are the ones which the majority of people are most comfortable doing.
2. That isn't possible as this thread doesn't pre-suppose christianity is true, which means that one is dismissed.
3. Incorrect once more, the bible quite clearly states that a confession with a priest/clergy is required at least once a year. Catholics (one denomination) follow this, Protestants, (usually) do not.
Jesus said in the gospels that those who follow him should upload the laws laid down in the old testatment. I have posted that particular verse before.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Even then, you would have to interpret the Hebrew and or Greek, Cyndane. And that would leave us right where we are today. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and it can only be comprehended by the same.
2. It is foolish not to presuppose that the God in question exists when a discussion is taking place around and about said God.
3. Firstly, where in scripture does it state this? Secondly, you may have missed my point a bit. Denominations are completely unscriptural, while scripture acknowledges them.
<!--QuoteBegin-1 Corinthians 1:10+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1 Corinthians 1:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-1 Corinthians 12:5+6--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1 Corinthians 12:5 @ 6)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And there are differences of administrations but the same Lord. And there are diversities of oprations but it is the same God which worketh all in all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And, as said before, things like (Baptists) <i>not dancing</i>, are extraneous baggage that man has carried into the denomination.
Concerning the gospel preached by Jesus, he also said:
<!--QuoteBegin-Matthew 22:36-40+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Matthew 22:36-40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fine print are not the great commandments, neither are all commandments equal. God judges the heart, not the works only.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong scholars who actually look at the OT, use it as a basis for the beginnings of christianity, not as history, as there is very little history in the bible(OT) that actually occured. The only scholars who consider it to be history are your christian apologetics, and even then they can't explain why it is history other then "god says it is"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If nothing else it is the history of the Jewish people. I'll leave this debate alone as it is not relevant right now, however.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which makes no sense... after all many of the laws we have today have existed since the beginnings of civilization, and it will always be that way. God(s) or no god(s) what is right and wrong can not be defined by only non-secular beliefs especially when all of the big three religions love to kill each other and promote it.
That isn't particularly very good for being "right."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those who promote such things are extremists and you know better than to hinge a debate of the general on the specific. Christians as a whole, in general, do not murder, nor is murder acceptable or commanded by God. Murder was acceptable in the OT as a way of cleansing the earth of evil and only on God's command was it acceptable. God has made a new covenant with us through Jesus Christ.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bosnian Cowboy+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bosnian Cowboy)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Define left and right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Left and right, while relative to your position, never change. Left is always left and right is always right. If I were standing in front of you right now I could quickly teach you left and right. The only way that you would not grasp left and right would be if you were <b>trying to not</b> grasp left and right. Bad analogy, sorry.
This verse is insightful to me, concerning this topic of interpretation and subjective standards.
<!--QuoteBegin-1 Corinthians 2:13+14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (1 Corinthians 2:13 @ 14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual thinsg with spiritual. But the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them; because they are spiritually discerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes spirit to be a Christian. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
P.S. sorry for late reply, I was away in Canada on holiday.
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1. Even then, you would have to interpret the Hebrew and or Greek, Cyndane. And that would leave us right where we are today. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and it can only be comprehended by the same.
2. It is foolish not to presuppose that the God in question exists when a discussion is taking place around and about said God.
3. Firstly, where in scripture does it state this? Secondly, you may have missed my point a bit. Denominations are completely unscriptural, while scripture acknowledges them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. If you look at it in a literal sense, there really isn't much to interpet as the words tend to speak for themselves. Especially with the hewbrew, the greek is a bit more open to interpetation, but then again you will still have errors. So the question remains, why try to interpet something that will inherently have errors in translations and actually follow it? Oh thats right, there isn't a good reason.
2. No, it is discussing right and wrong, there is no pre-supposing that god(s) are real. Which again has no bearing on anything particularly, however if you wish to debate the existence or non-existence of a god, that is for another thread and probably another forum as well.
3. You missed that thread, which is sad, but I shall quote it for you anyway.
It is called the Day of Atonement.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible Leviticus 23:26-31+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible Leviticus 23:26-31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
26The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
27"On exactly (U)the tenth day of this seventh month is (V)the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28"You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a (W)day of atonement, (X)to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29"If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, (Y)he shall be cut off from his people.
30"As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
31"You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If nothing else it is the history of the Jewish people. I'll leave this debate alone as it is not relevant right now, however.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, there is no history, as history is based in fact and very much of the OT is not fact.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Those who promote such things are extremists and you know better than to hinge a debate of the general on the specific. Christians as a whole, in general, do not murder, nor is murder acceptable or commanded by God. Murder was acceptable in the OT as a way of cleansing the earth of evil and only on God's command was it acceptable. God has made a new covenant with us through Jesus Christ.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once more you have no idea what your own holy book says, I can forgive for not knowing what Islam says
Let me quote you the passages of what your god tells you to do. This is from your holy codifed laws section(s) of the bible, where it TELLS YOU what you can and can not do.
<!--QuoteBegin-Various bible passages+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Various bible passages)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know you are saying "but the new testament says to love each other."
Wait... for it...
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible NSAB Matthew 5 17-18+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible NSAB Matthew 5 17-18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're straying from the beaten path with this one, Cyndane. All literature MUST be interpreted. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and can only be interpreted through that same inspiration.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. No, it is discussing right and wrong, there is no pre-supposing that god(s) are real. Which again has no bearing on anything particularly, however if you wish to debate the existence or non-existence of a god, that is for another thread and probably another forum as well.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The question of God's existence ties into the question of what is right and what is wrong. If my God, the one from the Holy Bible, exists; then right and wrong take on a whole new meaning. God is vital to this debate even if he does not exist simply because he is integrated into my opinions and beliefs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. You missed that thread, which is sad, but I shall quote it for you anyway.
It is called the Day of Atonement.
QUOTE (Bible Leviticus 23:26-31)
26The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
27"On exactly (U)the tenth day of this seventh month is (V)the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you, and you shall humble your souls and present an offering by fire to the LORD.
28"You shall not do any work on this same day, for it is a (W)day of atonement, (X)to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29"If there is any person who will not humble himself on this same day, (Y)he shall be cut off from his people.
30"As for any person who does any work on this same day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
31"You shall do no work at all. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am unsure what you're getting at with this, I assume it is the last verse that states "It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places." that we're focusing on. If so, read what God has to say about the Day of Atonement in Isaiah:
<!--QuoteBegin-Isaiah 1:13+14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Isaiah 1:13 @ 14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very interesting passage because the Israelites were doing what God commanded. They were bringing offerings and sacrifices and they were meeting and they were observing all that God had called them to as far as feasts and rituals went. But God commands them to stop. To stop bringing vanity to Him. They have taken His laws and they have turned them into dung. God hates the assemblies and meetings that He; Himself commanded of them. God wants a relationship, not a religion. The command that I typed earlier is above your command (Matthew 22:36-40), "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) (Sabbath / Day of Atonement)
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong, there is no history, as history is based in fact and very much of the OT is not fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, let us chase this rabbit. So you can prove, factually, scientifically, somehow tangibly that an event mentioned in scripture did NOT occur, <i>as a fact?</i>
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once more you have no idea what your own holy book says, I can forgive for not knowing what Islam says
Let me quote you the passages of what your god tells you to do. This is from your holy codifed laws section(s) of the bible, where it TELLS YOU what you can and can not do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are all Old Covenant examples. I live under the New Covenant.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible from Cyndane+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible from Cyndane)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And He did fulfill them. I agree.
~ DarkATi
You're straying from the beaten path with this one, Cyndane. All literature MUST be interpreted. The Bible was written through inspiration of the Holy Ghost and can only be interpreted through that same inspiration.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, it does not, only those who wish to make it more then what it appears to be must interpet something, such as yourself. (Tolkien is a great example everyone "thought" LOTR was about WWII but it wasn't, luckily he was alive today to tell us otherwise, sadly the many authors of the bible are not.)
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I am unsure what you're getting at with this, I assume it is the last verse that states "It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places." that we're focusing on. If so, read what God has to say about the Day of Atonement in Isaiah:
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I was getting at was the fact it says YOU MUST CONFESS on the 10th day of the seventh month, once a year, which is clearly states in the beginning.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Those are all Old Covenant examples. I live under the New Covenant.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again what is sad is you disreguard what your god tells you to do, completely, oh but wait you live under the "new covenant" yet in this new covenant in that Matthew quote, jesus is telling you the old laws STILL APPLY. Lets quote the entire passage shall we?
In the following passage jesus tells you the "new covenant", but maintains that the old laws still apply as referenced by the last few verses. Which means, at this very moment you are committing sins.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bible (NSAB) Matthew 5+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bible (NSAB) Matthew 5)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1(A)When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on (B)the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2©He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
3"(D)Blessed are the poor in spirit, for (E)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4"Blessed are (F)those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5"Blessed are (G)the [a]gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6"Blessed are (H)those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7"Blessed are (I)the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8"Blessed are (J)the pure in heart, for (K)they shall see God.
9"Blessed are the peacemakers, for (L)they shall be called sons of God.
10"Blessed are those who have been (M)persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for (N)theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people (O)insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
12"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for (P)in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Disciples and the World
13"You are the salt of the earth; but (Q)if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14"You are ®the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15(S)nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may (T)see your good works, and (U)glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your (Y)righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
13"You are the salt of the earth; but (Q)if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
14"You are ®the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15(S)nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may (T)see your good works, and (U)glorify your Father who is in heaven.
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your (Y)righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkAti+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkAti)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Oh, let us chase this rabbit. So you can prove, factually, scientifically, somehow tangibly that an event mentioned in scripture did NOT occur, as a fact?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I opted to chase this rabbit last as this will now be a complete rehashing of the supposed arguments that were used last time, so if you saw the thread... part.<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90840' target='_blank'>here</a> you are more then welcome to skip over this last part.
<a href='http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MESO/SUMER.HTM' target='_blank'>Link 1</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
We know very little about the early Semitic religions, but the Semites that invaded Mesopotamia seem to have completely abandoned their religion in favor of Sumerian religion. Sumerian religion was polytheistic, that is, the Sumerians believed in and worshipped many gods. These gods were incredibly powerful and anthropomorphic, that is, they resembled humans. Many of these gods controlled natural forces and were associated with astronomical bodies, such as the sun. The gods were creator gods; as a group, they had created the world and the people in it. Like humans, they suffered all the ravages of human emotional and spiritual frailties: love, lust, hatred, anger, regret. Among the gods' biggest regrets was the creation of human life; the Sumerians believed that these gods regretted the creation of human life and sent a flood to destroy their faulty creation, but one man survived by building a boat. While the destruction of the earth in a great flood is nearly universal in all human mythology and religion, we can't be sure if the Semites had a similar story or took it over from the Sumerians. This is, of course, a question of contemporary significance: according to Genesis, the originator of the Hebrew race, the patriarch Abraham, originally came from the city of Ur.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright it is now midnight and I am sick of looking up old arguements.. here is a link where there were a few of the stories proven to be fiction/false/not true.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88402&st=15' target='_blank'>Link 1(forums)</a>
In addition to the above link(s) as well.
Since there is no way you can prove that God exists, it is not helpful to the discussion. If God exists, and He's exactly as you describe, then yes, it's important. But since we can't<i> know</i> whether He does or not, it doesn't help us.
We also can't question God's philosophy, the method He uses to determine between good and bad. God as an entity is beyond comprehension, and we can't talk to Him, so that's not much help, either. Your Holy Spirit only seems to help believers (which makes posting bible quotes futile, I'm afraid, since we don't interpret them the same way as you). So, once again, we come to a dead end.
If I were to teach my children right and wrong, it would have to be a system that isn't ultimately based on an assumption. (Note that there's nothing wrong with "love thy neighbour". You may or may not believe that it has the backing of a god, but it's an ideology that should steer you straight.)